MD & DO EVMS MD critique of NBME

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First, I completely disagree with the MD but I wanted to know what SND thought of his points? Are they valid?
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Click on the tweet to read more about it. He goes on on on!

Your thoughts?

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First, I completely disagree with the MD but I wanted to know what SND thought of his points? Are they valid?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









Click on the tweet to read more about it. He goes on on on!

Your thoughts?


Which parts do you disagree about? Also what level of training are you at? I don’t mean to be judgemental but just curious so I can have a good debate on the issue.

My take is we should absolutely have a better tool to evaluate students for residency and the fact that we don’t have one doesn’t de facto make step 1 a “good” tool. Also that statement about what students would otherwise be doing is beyond ridiculous. I started studying for step 1 may of 2nd yr answer took the test 4 weeks later. I could’ve easily started clerkships earlier and that would’ve been a much more educational use of my time. But they way I scored >85%ile on each of the 3 steps so it has nothing to do with personal experience.

Pass/fail would immensely change the evaluation of medical students applying for residency but I believe this is something that should be studied and it would only have to start with one speciality
 
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Which parts do you disagree about? Also what level of training are you at? I don’t mean to be judgemental but just curious so I can have a good debate on the issue.

My take is we should absolutely have a better tool to evaluate students for residency and the fact that we don’t have one doesn’t de facto make step 1 a “good” tool. Also that statement about what students would otherwise be doing is beyond ridiculous. I started studying for step 1 may of 2nd yr answer took the test 4 weeks later. I could’ve easily started clerkships earlier and that would’ve been a much more educational use of my time. But they way I scored >85%ile on each of the 3 steps so it has nothing to do with personal experience.

Pass/fail would immensely change the evaluation of medical students applying for residency but I believe this is something that should be studied and it would only have to start with one speciality
what is this better tool to evaluate people?
Is is volunteer hours?
Non-standardized clinical evaluations?
Research output?
School pedigree?
non-standardized preclinical grades?
Class rank?
 
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Step 1 is one of the only tools left to stratify students. If preclinical grades are pass/fail, Step 1 is pass/fail and clinical grades are the only objective measure, then programs have no way to tell students apart. Then it'll fall to school rank and research, both of which medical students have less control over.
 
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what is this better tool to evaluate people?
Is is volunteer hours?
Non-standardized clinical evaluations?
Research output?
School pedigree?
non-standardized preclinical grades?
Class rank?

The argument for step 1 cannot be that there is no better way. What about before it was used in this fashion?

I didn’t come on here and proclaim to know some better way. I just agree with the twitter commentary and wished there was a better way and believe making step 1 pass fail is worthy of study
 
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Step 1 is one of the only tools left to stratify students. If preclinical grades are pass/fail, Step 1 is pass/fail and clinical grades are the only objective measure, then programs have no way to tell students apart. Then it'll fall to school rank and research, both of which medical students have less control over.

I know some programs make grades p/f but all of my clinical and pre clinical grades were not p/f. How about letters of rec, ec’s, research, and the actual interview itself? Again as I said above I don’t proclaim to know a better alternative but I agree with the the general sentiment
 
Did you go to a Top 5 medical school? The step 1 is the only way for those of us who didn't get into Harvard to prove that we are competitve. Making Step 1 Pass/ Fail would open Pandora box.

One of the biggest cons would be school ranks!
The argument for step 1 cannot be that there is no better way. What about before it was used in this fashion?

I didn’t come one here and proclaim to know some better way. I just agree with the twitter commentary and wished there was a better way and believe making step 1 pass fail is worthy of study
 
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The argument for step 1 cannot be that there is no better way. What about before it was used in this fashion?

I didn’t come on here and proclaim to know some better way. I just agree with the twitter commentary and wished there was a better way and believe making step 1 pass fail is worthy of study
Yes, but what is the alternative. You can criticize it all you want, I just want to know another fair way to stratify applicants. Considering it is currently the only option to stratify applicants objectively it also happens to be the best one. I am all open to better ways, and it is easy to criticize something for not being perfect. It is more difficult to implement an alternative. While we are on the subject why stop here , take away the mcat, the sat etc..
 
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Did you go to a Top 5 medical school? The step 1 is the only way for those of us who didn't get into Harvard to prove that we are competitve. Making Step 1 Pass/ Fail would open Pandora box.

One of the biggest cons would be school ranks!

I arguably went to a low tier medical school aced my steps and it had 0 impact on my matching and so I feel fairly unbiased in my assessment. I’m now a PGY-6 and have participated in interviewing ranking and evaluating students and I understand the critique of step 1 being used to stratify students
 
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I don't agree with his mentioning of people salary. If you ask me that just jealousy.

In case, you didn't notice the MD is a nephrologist, making his entire argument even less valid.

This is a capitalist and competitive society. Any adult who spend his time wathching netflix while his classmate are busting their b""t off studying for step should suffer the consequences. Plain and simple/.
Which parts do you disagree about? Also what level of training are you at? I don’t mean to be judgemental but just curious so I can have a good debate on the issue.

My take is we should absolutely have a better tool to evaluate students for residency and the fact that we don’t have one doesn’t de facto make step 1 a “good” tool. Also that statement about what students would otherwise be doing is beyond ridiculous. I started studying for step 1 may of 2nd yr answer took the test 4 weeks later. I could’ve easily started clerkships earlier and that would’ve been a much more educational use of my time. But they way I scored >85%ile on each of the 3 steps so it has nothing to do with personal experience.

Pass/fail would immensely change the evaluation of medical students applying for residency but I believe this is something that should be studied and it would only have to start with one speciality

I would bet your 85 percentile Step score had something do with it.. And now you want to get rid of it??? OMG??
I arguably went to a low tier medical school aced my steps and it had 0 impact on my matching and so I feel fairly unbiased in my assessment. I’m now a PGY-6 and have participated in interviewing ranking and evaluating students and I understand the critique of step 1 being used to stratify students
 
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Yes, but what is the alternative. You can criticize it all you want, I just want to know another fair way to stratify applicants. Considering it is currently the only option to stratify applicants objectively it also happens to be the best one. I am all open to better ways, and it is easy to criticize something for not being perfect. It is more difficult to implement an alternative. While we are on the subject why stop here , take away the mcat, the sat etc..

Step 1 itself has never been shown in studies to predict anything besides passing other standardized tests which is a terrible tool for evaluating physicians.

Mcat and sat is not what we’re talking about and no one is advocating removing standardized tests entirely. A “slippery slope” argument is a lazy way to defend using step 1
 
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I don't agree with his mentioning of people salary. If you ask me that just jealousy.

In case, you didn't notice the MD is a nephrologist, making his entire argument even less valid.

This is a capitalist and competitive society. Any adult who spend his time wathching netflix while his classmate are busting their b""t off studying for step should suffer the consequences. Plain and simple/.


I would bet your 85 percentile Step score had something do with it.. And now you want to get rid of it??? OMG??

He mentioned the salary to point out a potential conflict of interest. You can not deny the financial incentives. The tests should not cost 1000’s of dollars for students that are in debt and make no income.

My point about my own experience is just to say that I’m not some butthurt guy that doesn’t like how it’s used. If anything for me it was a positive and I have no problem admitting that. What I’m saying though is that there are potentially better ways and it should be looked into.

Also your point about the commentary about Netflix is so off base it’s not even funny. You think that’s the only alternative people could be doing? How about spending time with children souses or orther family members? Working on research or other volunteer ECs. I mean come one man that’s a bit of a generalization.
 
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I think the test itself could be made better to make it more clinically relevant than testing minutiae, but that brings across the point of the relevancy of first 2 years of medical education. But, moving apart from that point, step 1 is really the only way right now that I see to stratify students. If step 1 is removed, there will be some other tool to stratify and I think for me, I see more bias in those stratification methods than step 1. For example, research or connections in the field is much more accessible to people who have family friends which creates a lot of bias favoring those students.
Step 1, although not perfect, is the only tool that I see that rewards hard work with more competitive residency spots.

What is a ridiculous test is step 2 cs, which is expensive, frustrating and undermines the evaluations of 3rd year medical students from various doctors. If step 2 cs is not being used to stratify and is a mere pass or fail, there is absolutely no point in it. Evaluations from 3rd year are enough to show clinical competency and patient skills.
 
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I think the test itself could be made better to make it more clinically relevant than testing minutiae, but that brings across the point of the relevancy of first 2 years of medical education. But, moving apart from that point, step 1 is really the only way right now that I see to stratify students. If step 1 is removed, there will be some other tool to stratify and I think for me, I see more bias in those stratification methods than step 1. For example, research or connections in the field is much more accessible to people who have family friends which creates a lot of bias favoring those students.
Step 1, although not perfect, is the only tool that I see that rewards hard work with more competitive residency spots although it's not perfect.

What is a ridiculous test is step 2 cs, which is expensive, frustrating and undermines the evaluations of 3rd year medical students from various doctors. If step 2 cs is not being used to stratify and is a mere pass or fail, there is absolutely no point in it. Evaluations from 3rd year are enough to show clinical competency and patient skills.

People assign too much meaning to step 1. It would be a valuable way to stratify students if it were EVER shown to be a reliable indicator of clinical performance. It isn’t. If programs want to Step 2 alone, go right ahead. I’m speaking specifically about step 1
 
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Fair point, but I still don't agree with the MD. So much is at stake!
Also your point about the commentary about Netflix is so off base it’s not even funny. You think that’s the only alternative people could be doing? How about spending time with children souses or orther family members? Working on research or other volunteer ECs. I mean come one man that’s a bit of a generalization.

I beg to differ; preclinical year do play a significant role on one's ability to doctor. Who is the better anesthesiologist? The guy who understand every aspect of pharm, biochem, cardio or the guy who just passed step1?

You can learn on the job for sure; but if we ever proceed in that direction what would be the difference between PA, CRNA and doctors? Isn't understand and applying what you know what step 1 is all about?

People assign too much meaning to step 1. It would be a valuable way to stratify students if it were EVER shown to be a reliable indicator of clinical performance. It isn’t. If programs want to Step 2 alone, go right ahead. I’m speaking specifically about step 1
 
Also your point about the commentary about Netflix is so off base it’s not even funny. You think that’s the only alternative people could be doing? How about spending time with children souses or orther family members? Working on research or other volunteer ECs. I mean come one man that’s a bit of a generalization.

Dr. Katsufrakis is just mad he only got 2 likes on his most recent Instagram post.

He did offer an apology on Twitter though:

"Thanks to those pointing out text in our recent Academic Medicine commentary. You’re right: Harshness where I referenced Netflix and Instagram was unintended. Not everything enhances skill as a physician, nor need it be so. Mea culpa everyone!"
 
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Step 1 itself has never been shown in studies to predict anything besides passing other standardized tests which is a terrible tool for evaluating physicians.

Mcat and sat is not what we’re talking about and no one is advocating removing standardized tests entirely. A “slippery slope” argument is a lazy way to defend using step 1
I dont disagree with you in any way regarding the short comings of step. Its just that removing the only objective tool available to stratify students without implementing what ever better method there is available first decreases the mertitocratic nature of medicine and will only lead to reliance on non-standardized tools that are unfavorable for students coming from lower tier schools without connections.

The argument wasnt even about slippery slopes, the argument was that if we have pass fail here, why not remove other standardized tests that are used to stratify student matriculation in the first place which are the mcat, and sat ultimately.

If the only real criticism for step is cost .. thats a little weird considering medical education costs are insane and step constitutes a very small cost in the grand scheme of things. Easy solution make it cheaper, and kill CS.
 
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I suggest you all follow Vinay Prasad on Twitter if you don’t already. He’s an aPD if the OHSU hem/onc program and has a lot of commentary on these types of issues and has a podcast. I never would’ve grasped much of what he discusses as a med student but wish it were available then
 
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I dont disagree with you in any way. Its just that removing the only objective tool available to stratify students without implementing what ever better method there is available first is decreases the mertitocratic nature of medicine and will only lead to reliance on non-standardized tools that are unfavorable for students coming from lower tier schools without connections.

The argument wasnt even about slippery slopes, the argument was that if we have pass fail here, why not remove other standardized tests that are used to stratify student matriculation in the first place which are the mcat, and sat ultimately.

If the only real criticism for step is cost .. thats a little weird considering medical education costs are insane and step constitutes a very small cost in the grand scheme of things. Easy solution make it cheaper, and kill CS.

Make it cheaper, kill cs make step 1 p/f and use step 2 which at least has SOME predictive power
 
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How about getting rid of Step 2 CS completely?

Yes, I think we can all agree on that. And the fact that these tests costs such an inordinate amount of money (include board exams as well. ABIM 1300 hem and onc boards ~2000). It’s not fair to charge that much for a test and I’ve never seen a rational argument that can actually defend it
 
Yes, I think we can all agree on that. And the fact that these tests costs such an inordinate amount of money (include board exams as well. ABIM 1300 hem and onc boards ~2000). It’s not fair to charge that much for a test and I’ve never seen a rational argument that can actually defend it

What are your thoughts on Step 3? Is it still necessary or can that also be eliminated?
 
What are your thoughts on Step 3? Is it still necessary or can that also be eliminated?

Step 3 I think serves other purposes and with large amounts of foreign grads it seems to be way more important for them, especially the longer they are from graduation. That being said it’s a reasonable test that should be cheaper and pass fail, because, as far as I know it’s not used very often in any meaningful way beside the above.
 
Read this thread



Glanced through the thread. I liked a few points made by someone. One, someone makes a good point about who is enforcing step 1 to be used as a metric? It is a voluntary decision by program directors. Program directors are choosing to use it to stratify their applicants. They don't need to. They can use whatever metrics they want (research, letters of recommendation, performance on the interview). They probably feel Step 1 is a more objective measure than other components of a student's application to use to screen out applications. My guess is they are using step 1 to screen applications, send interviews and then are making the rank list based on how they liked the applicant. I don't think this is a bad way of doing it at all.
I agree with your point that step 2 can be used instead, but I think the problem for me with that is that it's too late in the game for an applicant to decide if they are competitive or not for a certain speciality. Also, some applicants especially in competitive fields don't take their step 2 if their step 1 score is good by the time of interviews.
What I think can be done is make step 1 more clinically relevant.
 
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Glanced through the thread. I liked a few points made by someone. One, someone makes a good point about who is enforcing step 1 to be used as a metric? It is a voluntary decision by program directors. Program directors are choosing to use it to stratify their applicants. They don't need to. They can use whatever metrics they want (research, letters of recommendation, performance on the interview). They probably feel Step 1 is a more objective measure than other components of a student's application to use to screen out applications. My guess is they are using step 1 to screen applications, send interviews and then are making the rank list based on how they liked the applicant. I don't think this is a bad way of doing it at all.
I agree with your point that step 2 can be used instead, but I think the problem for me with that is that it's too late in the game for an applicant to decide if they are competitive or not for a certain speciality. Also, some applicants especially in competitive fields don't take their step 2 if their step 1 score is good by the time of interviews.
What I think can be done is make step 1 more clinically relevant.

Of course it’s voluntary-NBME isn’ mandating that programs use step 1 as a screening tool. If it’s a pass fail test, however, that then becomes a moot point. I think it’s extremely important especially in an evidence driven field such as medicine, is, why are we using a tool that has never been proven to be a reliable or even valid metric for clinical success? Step 2 makes more sense because it’s actually been studied and proven to at least have some validity.

The bigger flaw currently IMO is what is being taught in the preclinical years-and using step 1 as a tool is an extension of this. There needs to be a massive revamping of the medical school curriculum but that’s a conversation for a different day.

So far into my training I feel as if I have the experience to make these assessments, whether your all agree or disagree.
 
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Of course it’s voluntary-NBME isn’ mandating that programs use step 1 as a screening tool. If it’s a pass fail test, however, that then becomes a moot point. I think it’s extremely important especially in an evidence driven field such as medicine, is, why are we using a tool that has never been proven to be a reliable or even valid metric for clinical success? Step 2 makes more sense because it’s actually been studied and proven to at least have some validity.

The bigger flaw currently IMO is what is being taught in the preclinical years-and using step 1 as a tool is an extension of this. There needs to be a massive revamping of the medical school curriculum but that’s a conversation for a different day.

So far into my training I feel as if I have the experience to make these assessments, whether your all agree or disagree.

I don't completely disagree with your points. I do think there needs to be more research done whether higher step 1 scores produces better residents, but I also think that's the reason why PD use it more as a screening tool than completely relying on it. As a 3rd year medical student, I am glad step 1 works as an equalizer for me rather than research or having connections or other more subjective evaluation methods. I also agree with your point that step 2 should be emphasized but I think in reality it becomes hard due to the reasons I talked about in my above post.
I also agree with your comments about first 2 years of medical education, the relevancy of the first 2 years of clinical education (biochemistry, rote memorization of anatomy, immunology, etc.). That time can be spent either in the clinical setting or used to reduce the length of medical school or be taught more relevant knowledge that will aid in being better physicians. I studied really mostly with online resources and I thought the 100k that I paid for the first 2 years was to put it bluntly, a waste of my money. I hope there is more discussion in the future about the advent of online resources and if such a costly first 2 years is needed when lot of people are turning to online resources.
 
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I’ve long been a big supporter of making step 1 pass fail.

I’ve heard the fears that this would penalize top students at lower tier schools but I think that may not be true. The study id like to see done could be done now and would simply compare rank lists between people who are blinded to step scores and those who are not. While I think there may be a few shifts, I think the overall differences would be minimal. Obviously we need some actual data here.

In the end I think individual fields could easily make their own tests to stratify applicants objectively. You could even design these to actually stratify people rather than step one where scores must differ by >16 points to be significantly different (still amazes me how few people know this!).
 
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The original thread (or whatever twitter calls it) seems to make three points. 1) The NBME charges too much money, pays people too much, and has developed "mission creep" and is bloated; 2) Step 2 CS is a waste, and 3) Maybe Steps should be P/F.

As for point 1, I think that seems somewhat true. The NBME started as producing the USMLE exams. They;ve now expanded to create the shelf exams. And of course they are happy to sell students practice questions for more income. How much does it actually cost to create the USMLE exams? I'm not certain, but exams are expensive to create and administer (esp when you;re keeping the contents secret). But it's true that the NBME could increase the price to $5000 per step and there's nothing anyone could do about it. Should the gov't regulate how much these exams cost, much like the way the gov't regulates utilities? That's a political question.

Point 2, CS. His point is really interesting and ironic. He argues that because the exam is pass/fail and 95% pass, it's useless. His solution is to remove it. Another solution is to score it -- then there would be "discriminating value" to the 95% who pass since you could score high or low. Also, if 5% fail AND if those 5% actually have a problem, then from my view point the exam has some value. It could be argued that schools can "evaluate student clinical skills", but schools have a huge incentive to pass their students. Does a fail in CS portend problems? I'm not certain, but early on in the CS experience I figured it was a silly waste of an exam and matched two people who failed the first time. Both ran into major problems. Both graduated, but I'm more convinced that the exam actually measures something. Like all exams it's not perfect -- someone who is fine will fail the exam.

Point 3 (and the major point for discusison on the thread), should S1/2 be turned to pass/fail? I refer you to point 2. Making it pass/fail will make it useless. Perhaps "useless" is better than the status quo.

What will absolutely happen, as operaman above me has just stated, is that each field will create their own exam. It wouldn't be very hard, we could actually just use the ITE exams that most fields already have. Or, the NBME will beef up it's shelf exams and use that -- then you'll have the pleasure of paying them again. So then students would need to take the steps and pay for them, and then pay for a new exam. And if you want to do Derm with an IM prelim, you might have to take both the Derm and IM exams. The exams might only be offered a few times a year. You might only be allowed to take it once. If the NBME ran the process, your transcript would likely include all exams you take, so if you dual apply everyone would see the two exams. And the NBME (or something similar) would need to run this, because IMG's need to be able to take the exams, perhaps in other countries (just like the USMLE is now). Is this better than where we currently are? Maybe, but all we've done is trade one high stakes exam for another.

If we make it P/F without another exam, how am I supposed to decide who / how to rank people? More medical schools are moving to P/F grading, even in the clerkships. if everyone passes their clerkship and passes the USMLE, how do I sort through the applications? LOR's where everyone says that this student is in the top 5% of all people they have ever worked with? Personal statements? Volunteer activities? The bottom line is that the residency application process is competitive (as is most of life), and I need some way to assess performance. I'm all for a "better" way, but I just don't know what it is.
 
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In case, you didn't notice the MD is a nephrologist, making his entire argument even less valid.

He’s a *pediatric* nephrologist, so if your argument against him is that he makes money, I can assure you, he doesn’t make nearly as much as you think he does. If it’s that he’s jealous because he doesn’t make much money, then you missed the conflict of interest argument. And if it’s for some other reason, I have no idea what you’re implying. But he is super smart and very well respected amongst those who know him.

As for the actual topic... are there US schools that don’t give shelf exams for the core specialties?

I think Step 1 has value-there should be some level of understanding of basic science before you move on to the clinical years. I think it’s a poor measure of who is going to be a good physician. And that’s why it’s only one factor that PDs care about. Passing boards (and by that, I mean specialty boards, not USMLE) is important and there’s some correlation with passing USMLE and passing boards, so sure. But I know some people who scored very highly on step 1, and even on their ITE who should not be physicians.

So perhaps the best way is to have schools actually show what people scored on shelf exams. If you’re going into Peds and scored poorly in the surgery shelf, but did well on the Peds shelf, maybe that’s okay, and visa Versa. It’s the objective portion of the exam that most schools use, so why not just be completely transparent about it? Schools have already been administering it, so no need to stop that, but IMGs can take it in a proctored center if they so desire. Or the transcript for Step 2 CK can actually break down what you scored on each subject area. If you did poorly on a shelf in an area you want to pursue, you can take step 2 earlier to demonstrate improvement in that area.

Or each residency can actually figure out what sort of applicants they want to recruit and develop a separate scoring system for their institution. Adjustments can certainly be made without using a single number to stratify people.
 
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Someone who get it!
The original thread (or whatever twitter calls it) seems to make three points. 1) The NBME charges too much money, pays people too much, and has developed "mission creep" and is bloated; 2) Step 2 CS is a waste, and 3) Maybe Steps should be P/F.

As for point 1, I think that seems somewhat true. The NBME started as producing the USMLE exams. They;ve now expanded to create the shelf exams. And of course they are happy to sell students practice questions for more income. How much does it actually cost to create the USMLE exams? I'm not certain, but exams are expensive to create and administer (esp when you;re keeping the contents secret). But it's true that the NBME could increase the price to $5000 per step and there's nothing anyone could do about it. Should the gov't regulate how much these exams cost, much like the way the gov't regulates utilities? That's a political question.

Point 2, CS. His point is really interesting and ironic. He argues that because the exam is pass/fail and 95% pass, it's useless. His solution is to remove it. Another solution is to score it -- then there would be "discriminating value" to the 95% who pass since you could score high or low. Also, if 5% fail AND if those 5% actually have a problem, then from my view point the exam has some value. It could be argued that schools can "evaluate student clinical skills", but schools have a huge incentive to pass their students. Does a fail in CS portend problems? I'm not certain, but early on in the CS experience I figured it was a silly waste of an exam and matched two people who failed the first time. Both ran into major problems. Both graduated, but I'm more convinced that the exam actually measures something. Like all exams it's not perfect -- someone who is fine will fail the exam.

Point 3 (and the major point for discusison on the thread), should S1/2 be turned to pass/fail? I refer you to point 2. Making it pass/fail will make it useless. Perhaps "useless" is better than the status quo.

What will absolutely happen, as operaman above me has just stated, is that each field will create their own exam. It wouldn't be very hard, we could actually just use the ITE exams that most fields already have. Or, the NBME will beef up it's shelf exams and use that -- then you'll have the pleasure of paying them again. So then students would need to take the steps and pay for them, and then pay for a new exam. And if you want to do Derm with an IM prelim, you might have to take both the Derm and IM exams. The exams might only be offered a few times a year. You might only be allowed to take it once. If the NBME ran the process, your transcript would likely include all exams you take, so if you dual apply everyone would see the two exams. And the NBME (or something similar) would need to run this, because IMG's need to be able to take the exams, perhaps in other countries (just like the USMLE is now). Is this better than where we currently are? Maybe, but all we've done is trade one high stakes exam for another.

If we make it P/F without another exam, how am I supposed to decide who / how to rank people? More medical schools are moving to P/F grading, even in the clerkships. if everyone passes their clerkship and passes the USMLE, how do I sort through the applications? LOR's where everyone says that this student is in the top 5% of all people they have ever worked with? Personal statements? Volunteer activities? The bottom line is that the residency application process is competitive (as is most of life), and I need some way to assess performance. I'm all for a "better" way, but I just don't know what it is.
 
Valid point but he is jealous of our capitalist society... It's a market economy after all.
Read what the attending above said

He’s a *pediatric* nephrologist, so if your argument against him is that he makes money, I can assure you, he doesn’t make nearly as much as you think he does. If it’s that he’s jealous because he doesn’t make much money, then you missed the conflict of interest argument. And if it’s for some other reason, I have no idea what you’re implying. But he is super smart and very well respected amongst those who know him.

As for the actual topic... are there US schools that don’t give shelf exams for the core specialties?

I think Step 1 has value-there should be some level of understanding of basic science before you move on to the clinical years. I think it’s a poor measure of who is going to be a good physician. And that’s why it’s only one factor that PDs care about. Passing boards (and by that, I mean specialty boards, not USMLE) is important and there’s some correlation with passing USMLE and passing boards, so sure. But I know some people who scored very highly on step 1, and even on their ITE who should not be physicians.

So perhaps the best way is to have schools actually show what people scored on shelf exams. If you’re going into Peds and scored poorly in the surgery shelf, but did well on the Peds shelf, maybe that’s okay, and visa Versa. It’s the objective portion of the exam that most schools use, so why not just be completely transparent about it? Schools have already been administering it, so no need to stop that, but IMGs can take it in a proctored center if they so desire. Or the transcript for Step 2 CK can actually break down what you scored on each subject area. If you did poorly on a shelf in an area you want to pursue, you can take step 2 earlier to demonstrate improvement in that area.

Or each residency can actually figure out what sort of applicants they want to recruit and develop a separate scoring system for their institution. Adjustments can certainly be made without using a single number to stratify people.
 
I believe transparency is a good thing and making step 1 pass fail would make things more opaque. Let residency programs evaluate prospective residents based on whatever criteria they prioritize. But also give them as much information as possible. It’s beneficial for the prospective residents too. Does someone with a 20th percentile board score really want to be in a cohort with a bunch of 98 percenters? However, I do agree they charge too much for these exams because they have us by the ba**s.
 
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Step 2 should be given significantly more credence than Step 1. I agree that if you make it completely P/F residencies will match more based on prestige than aptitude.
 
Maybe PDs and chairs will actually have to make an effort to interview people and read their CVs and LORs instead of just relying on a stupid number from a memorization test of largely useless infotrmation that is subject to all sorts of biases.
 
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Valid point but he is jealous of our capitalist society... It's a market economy after all.
Read what the attending above said
Easy there ayn rand. NBME is far from a market economy, it is literally the result of legislation not the free market, it functions in this pseudo regulatory space , there are no other competitors and there never will be, and they have a captive audience. And it is a non-profit which by definition is there to fulfill a mission and not return a profit to its shareholders. That being said, the costs are inline with similar organizations and the executive pay is not outrageous.
 
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The discussion in this thread reminds me of Churchill's quip about democracy: ...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
 
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I don't agree with his mentioning of people salary. If you ask me that just jealousy.

In case, you didn't notice the MD is a nephrologist, making his entire argument even less valid.

This is a capitalist and competitive society. Any adult who spend his time wathching netflix while his classmate are busting their b""t off studying for step should suffer the consequences. Plain and simple/.


I would bet your 85 percentile Step score had something do with it.. And now you want to get rid of it??? OMG??

More than anything, the Netflix/Instagram suggestion really got to me. I'd never before thought of the idea of step being P/F for the reasons above (namely- what do you do if you remove step? what's the alternative?). Obviously someone who watches Netflix and wastes time will not do well on step. But for the CEOs of NBME to suggest that this is what will happen if step becomes P/F (or etc.) felt pretty insulting to me and my peers who study so hard not to get a score, but because they're genuinely interested in the material and have worked so hard to get to med school in the first place that they want to be better for their future patients.
 
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Reading some of these comments made me realize that even though I agree and understand the rationale behind the CEO statement, I don't think wise of him to state it publically.

More than anything, the Netflix/Instagram suggestion really got to me. I'd never before thought of the idea of step being P/F for the reasons above (namely- what do you do if you remove step? what's the alternative?). Obviously someone who watches Netflix and wastes time will not do well on step. But for the CEOs of NBME to suggest that this is what will happen if step becomes P/F (or etc.) felt pretty insulting to me and my peers who study so hard not to get a score, but because they're genuinely interested in the material and have worked so hard to get to med school in the first place that they want to be better for their future patients.
 
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Maybe PDs and chairs will actually have to make an effort to interview people and read their CVs and LORs instead of just relying on a stupid number from a memorization test of largely useless infotrmation that is subject to all sorts of biases.

This is unrealistic. I get at least twice as many applications as I have interview slots. So to decide whom to interview, I can't use interviews (unless we're talking about AAMC's new experiment with Standardized Video Interviews). LOR's all say that someone is in the top 1-5% of all students that they have worked with. All of them. I am not kidding. So, for me, decisions are based upon grades, USMLE scores, and MSPE comments mainly. Take away USMLE scores, and grades will just become more important.

If your argument is that USMLE should be P/F and then med students should take another specialty specific standardized test, that's certainly something to consider. But would that really be any better?

More than anything, the Netflix/Instagram suggestion really got to me.

That comment, published in a paper, was incredibly stupid and tone deaf.
 
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Maybe PDs and chairs will actually have to make an effort to interview people and read their CVs and LORs instead of just relying on a stupid number from a memorization test of largely useless infotrmation that is subject to all sorts of biases.

You are missing the point. It's not about using the interview as a selling point. It's getting the interview in the first place. If everyone looks the same on paper, as aprogdirector just said, then the process becomes more arbitrary (eg my LOR knows the PD, therefore I get the interview, or you went to the same undergrad as the PD, you get the interview) rather than relying on objective information in Step 1. Step 1 is mostly a test of how much workyou put in. Just about anyone can score a 240. Getting higher than that relies on memorizing minutia and test-taking skills.
 
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This is unrealistic. I get at least twice as many applications as I have interview slots. So to decide whom to interview, I can't use interviews (unless we're talking about AAMC's new experiment with Standardized Video Interviews). LOR's all say that someone is in the top 1-5% of all students that they have worked with. All of them. I am not kidding. So, for me, decisions are based upon grades, USMLE scores, and MSPE comments mainly. Take away USMLE scores, and grades will just become more important.

If your argument is that USMLE should be P/F and then med students should take another specialty specific standardized test, that's certainly something to consider. But would that really be any better?



That comment, published in a paper, was incredibly stupid and tone deaf.

Just replying to the idea about a specialty specific exam. I’ve thought about this a lot and I keep coming to the conclusion that it would be a lot better for a number of reasons:

1) renewed investment in their medical education by students rather than attempting to hack a high stakes exam.

2) an exam that is potentially better at comparing applicants than the POS that is step one where a 250 and a 235 are not significantly different. We instinctively think those are scores are entirely different leagues but the
Nbme data says the difference does not reach the threshold of statistical significance.

3) incoming interns/residents with better field- relevant knowledge. Imagine a world where students put the same effort into studying what we want them to know rather than a lot of basic science stuff that - while important foundationally - May largely comprise material that is less relevant.


I’d like to see the usmle continue to report detailed scores to students and their schools. The one issue I can see with field specific exams is the delay in taking doesn’t allow much time to prepare backup plans. Giving people and their schools scaled data would help someone in the 10th percentile nationally realize that it may be risky applying only to a highly competitive field. Having national comparative data would help schools properly advise their students.

I don’t mind that students have a high stakes high pressure exam. The current setup has had the side effect of destroying student investment in their own curriculuae.

I think residency programs could also adopt other objective screening methods. There has been some flirtation with telephone based behavioral question screens that are scores by an independent company and the scores given to programs. This is pretty standard in corporate interviews and in the HR literature has proven highly predictive of job performance. Add something like that to field specific exam and you’ve got some powerful objective data.

Regardless, I’m encouraged that the winds of change are starting to stir!
 
Why not something like how EM uses SLOEs only we do it for every field? That way we can have evidence that a student can function appropriately in the environment of that specialty choice.
 
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Why not something like how EM uses SLOEs only we do it for every field? That way we can have evidence that a student can function appropriately in the environment of that specialty choice.

It changes how the game is played, for sure, but it puts the emphasis on extroverts and those who can fake it until they nake it. It also turns every encounter into something extremely stressful because one wrong move and your SLOE is trash. Finally, the SLOE is not objective in any sense. There isn't objective criteria that writers follow, it's still mostly gestalt.
 
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I’m sorry-i totally respect all of your opinions, especially @aProgDirector but just because we have no better tool doesn’t mean it’s the only solution. Let’s invest time money and energy to study it. Maybe specialty specific exams are the answer. Maybe some standardized evaluation system that can be used as a screen. I have no idea and don’t claim to have the answer or solution. In the meantime using step 2 and requiring it for application would be a better tool to screen given its a more “valid” test of proficiency and medical knowledge.
 
Although I am getting the critique about step 1, it's improved a lot when I took it last year. My peers who also took it last year might disagree, but there were a lot of clinically relevant questions on my step 1 exam. Studying and doing well on step 1 gave me a solid foundation for clinicals and helped me understand the pathology and pathophysiology of diseases and drugs much better than someone who did not study as much for it.
I still use lot of the knowledge that I gained from studying for the system based questions on cardiology, GI, neurology, hematology, etc on my rotations. What should be changed is decrease the amount of biochemistry, immunology, gross anatomy (rote memorization portion of it, clinically relevant anatomy should be emphasized) and more emphasis should be placed on system based knowledge.
 
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I would bet that if Step 1 becomes pass fail then the idea of audition rotations would become huge as well. Honestly that is one thing that I think the DO world gets right.
 
I would bet that if Step 1 becomes pass fail then the idea of audition rotations would become huge as well. Honestly that is one thing that I think the DO world gets right.

Audition rotations make sense for smaller specialties. You can’t be expecting this type of thing to take over for IM, Peds, etc.
 
I seriously don't get the critique against Step1! We all have 24 hours, we all have two years to prep for the test, so where is this "semblance" of jealousy against the high scorers coming from??



I disagree with you there, everything is rote memorization. And how is knowing biochem, anatomy or immonology not clinically relevant? Couldn't it help you rule out diagnosis? For instance, knowing that the liver is on the right side and that the spleen is on the Left side of the body, would help you rule out spleen(whatever) in a patient presenting with RUQ pain.

I think it's all relevant, it just depends on how you decide to use that information. And doing so, would hinder creativity.
What should be changed is decrease the amount of biochemistry, immunology, gross anatomy (rote memorization portion of it, clinically relevant anatomy should be emphasized) and more emphasis should be placed on system based knowledge.
 
Sir, you'd take subjectivety over objectivity?? You'd prefer having a third party company asses your ability rather than step 1??


I also find it hard to believe that 235 isn't statistically different than a 250. I guess stats can't measure effort nor dedication...

Just replying to the idea about a specialty specific exam. I’ve thought about this a lot and I keep coming to the conclusion that it would be a lot better for a number of reasons:

1) renewed investment in their medical education by students rather than attempting to hack a high stakes exam.

2) an exam that is potentially better at comparing applicants than the POS that is step one where a 250 and a 235 are not significantly different. We instinctively think those are scores are entirely different leagues but the
Nbme data says the difference does not reach the threshold of statistical significance.

3) incoming interns/residents with better field- relevant knowledge. Imagine a world where students put the same effort into studying what we want them to know rather than a lot of basic science stuff that - while important foundationally - May largely comprise material that is less relevant.


I’d like to see the usmle continue to report detailed scores to students and their schools. The one issue I can see with field specific exams is the delay in taking doesn’t allow much time to prepare backup plans. Giving people and their schools scaled data would help someone in the 10th percentile nationally realize that it may be risky applying only to a highly competitive field. Having national comparative data would help schools properly advise their students.

I don’t mind that students have a high stakes high pressure exam. The current setup has had the side effect of destroying student investment in their own curriculuae.

I think residency programs could also adopt other objective screening methods. There has been some flirtation with telephone based behavioral question screens that are scores by an independent company and the scores given to programs. This is pretty standard in corporate interviews and in the HR literature has proven highly predictive of job performance. Add something like that to field specific exam and you’ve got some powerful objective data.

Regardless, I’m encouraged that the winds of change are starting to stir!
 
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