Expected NYU tuition to be 700k.

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LaughingGas

LaughingGas

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As ridiculous as the figure is, curious about the living expenses tag.... isn't 40k excessively high? I feel like you'd have to go out of your way to find a boujee apartment and eat out each day (never lived in NYC)
 
Dochopeful13 said:
Hopefully, someone who is better at math than me can answer this question. At this price tag even if you did OMFS would you ever get ahead?
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Yes. I'm a physician, not a dentist, but OMFS makes $538,000 on average according to the 2020 Doximity compensation survey. The maximum debt to income ratio for an optimal lifestyle is 2x. Therefore, so long as you're the average OMFS and your debt is less than $1M you'll be fine.
 
Nachatta said:
As ridiculous as the figure is, curious about the living expenses tag.... isn't 40k excessively high? I feel like you'd have to go out of your way to find a boujee apartment and eat out each day (never lived in NYC)
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40k for cost of living in New York City is actually on the lower end.

Look at any cost of living calculator. New York City is 50-150% more expensive than major cities like Dallas, TX.
 
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NYU DS debt is ridiculous. People just do not realize how hard it is to save money over your working lifetime. Trying to save money for all of life's unexpected expenses and pay off this debilitating debt. It's so easy to say I'm going to make OMFS money and pay this off quickly. I see it all the time. People who make alot of money (OMFS) tend to SPEND alot of money. We all do it. I did it. So the answer is? Live like a poor dental student until your debt is paid off? Good luck with that.

The 1st part of my career: spent hundreds of thousand dollars on buying a practice, building a 2nd practice and investing in those practices/real estate. There was literally no money left for saving. Important note: I owed less than 100K for DS debt.

2nd part of my career: spent hundreds of thousands of dollars LIVING LIFE. My family needs. Bigger home. My personal needs. Vacation home. Cars. Vacations with the family. Again ... invested a moderate amount of money (thank God) into a retirement acct. But again ... difficult to save money.

3rd part of my career: semi-retired working 2-4 days per week for a dental corp. Still spending money on daughter's upcoming wedding. Spending more money on wife's ongoing medical bills. Paying for last kid's college expenses. The expenses never end. I am saving more now since I have no debt.

Now add NYU debt monthly debt service to the above. My debt service was essentially nothing and I still had a difficult time saving money.

Point is. Being a dentist is not worth NYU money. I don't care what kind of dentist you become.

NYU et al remind me of all those lenders back in 2007,2008 who would lend money to ANYONE with a heartbeat to buy more house than they could afford. Same situation with NYU.
 
2TH MVR said:
NYU DS debt is ridiculous. People just do not realize how hard it is to save money over your working lifetime. Trying to save money for all of life's unexpected expenses and pay off this debilitating debt. It's so easy to say I'm going to make OMFS money and pay this off quickly. I see it all the time. People who make alot of money (OMFS) tend to SPEND alot of money. We all do it. I did it. So the answer is? Live like a poor dental student until your debt is paid off? Good luck with that.

The 1st part of my career: spent hundreds of thousand dollars on buying a practice, building a 2nd practice and investing in those practices/real estate. There was literally no money left for saving. Important note: I owed less than 100K for DS debt.

2nd part of my career: spent hundreds of thousands of dollars LIVING LIFE. My family needs. Bigger home. My personal needs. Vacation home. Cars. Vacations with the family. Again ... invested a moderate amount of money (thank God) into a retirement acct. But again ... difficult to save money.

3rd part of my career: semi-retired working 2-4 days per week for a dental corp. Still spending money on daughter's upcoming wedding. Spending more money on wife's ongoing medical bills. Paying for last kid's college expenses. The expenses never end. I am saving more now since I have no debt.

Now add NYU debt monthly debt service to the above. My debt service was essentially nothing and I still had a difficult time saving money.

Point is. Being a dentist is not worth NYU money. I don't care what kind of dentist you become.

NYU et al remind me of all those lenders back in 2007,2008 who would lend money to ANYONE with a heartbeat to buy more house than they could afford. Same situation with NYU.
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You make some good points, but your overall argument is out of touch with reality. I'll run a quick scenario to show you why:

Let's say you graduate with $700,000 in debt and take a $400,000 practice loan. We'll keep it simple and say interest brings the total to $1,600,000 across your payment period. We'll also keep it simple and say you make $500,000/year as an OMFS for each year of your career with no fluctuations (not realistic, but this is a scenario). It would take $200,000/year for 8 years to pay off that debt.

Your practice is in Dallas, TX, in this example. Federal income tax, FICA, and a maxed out 401(k) each year leaves you with $352,738. Contribute $7,100 into a stealth IRA and $6,000 into a backdoor Roth IRA. Then you're left with $339,638. Subtract out the $200,000 from loans = $139,638. For reference, $32,600/year contribution to retirement for 30 years compounded at 6% real is $3,000,000 come retirement. Perhaps not satisfactory for everyone, but once the loans are paid off you can contribute more.

So, you're saying you can't live on an income double the average American household for 8 years while paying off every single loan you have and still ending up with $3M in retirement???? That's ridiculous! If you can't live on $140k, there is a spending problem, not an earning problem. $140k after-tax on its own would be above the 90th percentile of incomes. And again, that's only for 8 years. After those 8 years, you have no loans and can double your spending to $280,000 and contribute an extra (almost) $60,000 to retirement, college, and other savings each year.

If you don't know what a stealth IRA or backdoor Roth IRA is, I highly recommend reading the White Coat Investor blog.

I get it, life happens. Medical bills and other necessary spending can really destroy plans. But vacation homes are not a necessity during those 8 years. Nor are new cars. Nor are college expenses (if they are, there are tons of scholarships available for undergrad).
 
This is really frustrating to see as I don't think a lot of perspective and current dental students really realize what that are getting themselves into until it is to late. With that said, I am glad that people are trying to spread the word about this ridiculousness.

This was posted awhile back by someone on SDN, but a good article to read(even though it focuses on specialties). Would highly recommend whitecoatinvestor.com to all that don't know about it.
www.whitecoatinvestor.com

Debt Dilemmas for Dental Specialists | White Coat Investor

Dental specialists are often worse off than medical specialists due to higher debt & tuition-requiring residencies. One big financial mistake can sink them.
www.whitecoatinvestor.com www.whitecoatinvestor.com

I also wanted to post ADAs 2018 (not a more recent one) income data for private practice dentists and specialists.
https://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/HPIData_SDPI_2018.xlsx?la=en.

I think 538K for OS is a bit high for the average and that source above didn't list its source for that income data. Not saying that it isn't possible of course, but from what I have seen, the averages were about 100K less depending on who they surveyed.

IMO no dental degree is worth that burden of debt.
 
SirBrotherJam said:
This is really frustrating to see as I don't think a lot of perspective and current dental students really realize what that are getting themselves into until it is to late. With that said, I am glad that people are trying to spread the word about this ridiculousness.

This was posted awhile back by someone on SDN, but a good article to read(even though it focuses on specialties). Would highly recommend whitecoatinvestor.com to all that don't know about it.
www.whitecoatinvestor.com

Debt Dilemmas for Dental Specialists | White Coat Investor

Dental specialists are often worse off than medical specialists due to higher debt & tuition-requiring residencies. One big financial mistake can sink them.
www.whitecoatinvestor.com www.whitecoatinvestor.com

I also wanted to post ADAs 2018 (not a more recent one) income data for private practice dentists and specialists.
https://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/HPIData_SDPI_2018.xlsx?la=en.

I think 538K for OS is a bit high for the average and that source above didn't list its source for that income data. Not saying that it isn't possible of course, but from what I have seen, the averages were about 100K less depending on who they surveyed.

IMO no dental degree is worth that burden of debt.
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Obviously for the vast majority of dental graduates this debt is debilitating and insane.

My argument is only in response to the specific question about OMFS.

If OMFS is actually ~$450,000 instead of the $500,000 I used, this changes the above numbers a bit, but turn 8 years to 9 or reduce spending slightly during those 8 years and you get the same result.

Cheers for also recommending WCI.
 
2k a year into a retirement account from just the age of 20-26 compounding at 10%, by retirement age would net 1mil. If well managed, an average earning individual could have a higher net worth over the omfs who spends 20 years and nearly 2mil in total cost (interest included), without having to dedicate a similar amount of hours.
On the other hand, there are many merits to being an omfs and how you can help people, but in this scenario from a strictly money and time/hours perspective, if you were willing to put in the same amount of 80+ hour weeks in dental school/residency training, and instead into a job/your own entrepreneurial pursuits and allow your investments to compound, the heavily debt ridden omfs route would not be the optimal path.
 
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Blueshirts said:
2k a year into a retirement account from just the age of 20-26 compounding at 10%, by retirement age would net 1mil. If well managed, an average earning individual could have a higher net worth over the omfs who spends 20 years and nearly 2mil in total cost (interest included), without having to dedicate a similar amount of hours.
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Well, an oral surgeon with their own practice can afford to put 2k into retirement as well. It's really not that much to the OS in the grand scheme of things and the OS will be on track to have everything you say they will and still make 400k+ a year. Also, @Dr.K124 already covered this and used $1.6m, and worked out the math to be 3mil retirement funds with an extra 130k a year which is way better than 1 mil. He had also used a conservative 6% while you used an aggressive 10%. OMFS blows anything else out of the water on paper.

Blueshirts said:
On the other hand, there are many merits to being an omfs and how you can help people, but in this scenario from a strictly money and time/hours perspective, if you were willing to put in the same amount of 80+ hour weeks in dental school/residency training, and instead into a job/your own entrepreneurial pursuits and allow your investments to compound, the heavily debt ridden omfs route would not be the optimal path.
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I can't disagree with this enough. Your own entrepreneurial pursuits are going to come with a lot more risks even if you put 80hr/w into it. If everyone who spends 80hr/w on their own business made 400k income, then everyone would be rich. In contrast, once you get into OMFS, it's not a matter of will your net worth ever hit the millions, it's when will it happen. Even if you don't start your own practice and make 300k annually with 700k student debt, you will still pay that off in less than 6 years and start putting more into retirement/stocks. You will likely be way better off than 99% of entrepreneurs who started 8 years earlier than you did.
 
DentGent13 said:
Well, an oral surgeon with their own practice can afford to put 2k into retirement as well. It's really not that much to the OS in the grand scheme of things and the OS will be on track to have everything you say they will and still make 400k+ a year. Also, @Dr.K124 already covered this and used $1.6m, and worked out the math to be 3mil retirement funds with an extra 130k a year which is way better than 1 mil. He had also used a conservative 6% while you used an aggressive 10%. OMFS blows anything else out of the water on paper.


I can't disagree with this enough. Your own entrepreneurial pursuits are going to come with a lot more risks even if you put 80hr/w into it. If everyone who spends 80hr/w on their own business made 400k income, then everyone would be rich. In contrast, once you get into OMFS, it's not a matter of will your net worth ever hit the millions, it's when will it happen. Even if you don't start your own practice and make 300k annually with 700k student debt, you will still pay that off in less than 6 years and start putting more into retirement/stocks. You will likely be way better off than 99% of entrepreneurs who started 8 years earlier than you did.
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^ this guy gets it. It's all about paying off that debt as soon as possible. Live like a resident, where you still live on a relatively (to your later living standard) low income until your debt is paid off after residency. My calculation was generous and had the period as 8 years instead of shorter to allow a fairly considerable lifestyle increase as an early attending (to $140k).

Additionally, my $3,000,000 retirement calculation ONLY considered the $32,600 contribution per year. If you're running your own practice, you can maximize your 401(k) to $58,000 once your debt is paid off (could do it before, but remember, debt takes priority too). This means your first 8 years will be $32,600 contributions while your later 22 years will be $71,100, all while still having $140,000 for living the first 8 years and $301,500 (a little over FOUR times the average American household income) for living/expenses the later 22 years.

So, annual $32,600 compounding at 6% real for 8 years is $342,000 for retirement. Then take the $342,000 and switch the annual contributions to $71,100 for the next 22 years, still compounding at 6% real and your grand retirement total is $4,500,000. That's $180,000/year in retirement in today's dollars, not including social security which would put you at over $200,000. If that's not enough for you, you can contribute more from that $301,500 household income in taxable accounts.

If you have a working spouse, that's even more income and a whole new 401(k), plus a spousal backdoor Roth IRA for an additional retirement contribution ranging from $25,500-$64,000 each year.
 
It's completely pointless arguing about whether or not NYU is worth it for OMFS because NYU by no means guarantees OMFS. Only handful of their students will get it. If anything, their large class size makes it even harder. Do not go to this school justifying doing OMFS to pay off the INSANE amount of debt.
 
It is MUCH easier said than done to actually become a OMFS. One should not justify going to such an expensive school in hopes they’ll become a OMFS to pay it off. Does NYU even produce that many OMFS? Please correct me because I thought the Ivies produced the most amount of those per class.
Because what happens if you don’t make it? If you end up as a general Dentist? Now you’re paying almost a million in debt and there’s no way you’ll ever see or enjoy the money you make.
 
fermi555 said:
It's completely pointless arguing about whether or not NYU is worth it for OMFS because NYU by no means guarantees OMFS. Only handful of their students will get it. If anything, their large class size makes it even harder. Do not go to this school justifying doing OMFS to pay off the INSANE amount of debt.
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Carmencitas said:
It is MUCH easier said than done to actually become a OMFS. One should not justify going to such an expensive school in hopes they’ll become a OMFS to pay it off. Does NYU even produce that many OMFS? Please correct me because I thought the Ivies produced the most amount of those per class.
Because what happens if you don’t make it? If you end up as a general Dentist? Now you’re paying almost a million in debt and there’s no way you’ll ever see or enjoy the money you make.
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The assumption was never that someone could easily become an OMFS. @Dochopeful13 simply asked if even OMFS would come out ahead, so I did a case study.

The loan is ridiculous either way.
 
DentGent13 said:
Well, an oral surgeon with their own practice can afford to put 2k into retirement as well. It's really not that much to the OS in the grand scheme of things and the OS will be on track to have everything you say they will and still make 400k+ a year. Also, @Dr.K124 already covered this and used $1.6m, and worked out the math to be 3mil retirement funds with an extra 130k a year which is way better than 1 mil. He had also used a conservative 6% while you used an aggressive 10%. OMFS blows anything else out of the water on paper.


I can't disagree with this enough. Your own entrepreneurial pursuits are going to come with a lot more risks even if you put 80hr/w into it. If everyone who spends 80hr/w on their own business made 400k income, then everyone would be rich. In contrast, once you get into OMFS, it's not a matter of will your net worth ever hit the millions, it's when will it happen. Even if you don't start your own practice and make 300k annually with 700k student debt, you will still pay that off in less than 6 years and start putting more into retirement/stocks. You will likely be way better off than 99% of entrepreneurs who started 8 years earlier than you did.
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To your first half reply, the point I was trying to draw upon was how important time is regarding compounding interest, the % is not the important value to take away. What we are talking about here is financial literacy, although the raw income is high, you have to consider 1) debt, 2) opportunity cost. Without getting tangential, the opportunity cost of a loss of income and investment opportunity through 4 years undergrad, 4 years dental, 6 years residency, and then a period of 6+ years in which you are servicing debt is very significant, it’s literally a 20 year period, at which point you can then begin to make progress on your net worth.
 
I am just wondering what will be the limit? 1 million? 2 million?
 
LaughingGas said:
I am just wondering what will be the limit? 1 million? 2 million?
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I'm not sure there will be a definitive number, but once so many dentists are struggling with debt, the word will hopefully get to the pre dents who almost certainly aren't even thinking about finances when they're applying. I'm assuming this will still be years from now.
 
fermi555 said:
I'm not sure there will be a definitive number, but once so many dentists are struggling with debt, the word will hopefully get to the pre dents who almost certainly aren't even thinking about finances when they're applying. I'm assuming this will still be years from now.
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I used to be one of those predents that was completely finance illiterate and I am hoping more predents realize what it truly means to have 400-700k in debt to be an average GP making 120-180k per year.
 
I have a young, bright female patient who is in the process of applying to DS next cycle. I asked her what school she hopes to attend. She told me USC. I asked her if she was aware of the excessive tuition. I even brought it up to her father. But all I saw was her father beaming that his child was going to attend a DS and become a dentist. Now ... let me preface this by stating that I work for a Dental Corp who sees low income patients. Maybe he is affluent. Maybe not. I do not know nor am I going to speculate. But the half a million plus price tag to become a general dentist didn't seem to phase this person or her father. Is her father to be blamed? Well ... that's another discussion.

An above poster mentioned how someone making OMFS money can make the numbers work. But we're talking about being a general dentist.

There is no rationalizing going into this much DS debt to become a dentist. Oh ... they may say they will pay any price to have their dream job. To be a dentist. Lets be real people. Dentistry is hard, stressful work. If you become a practice owner ... then at least all your hard work will be validated. If you are forced to work in the Dental Corp trenches with tons of DS debt. Your life will suck. Endless working hours while chipping away at that huge DS debt.

I mentioned it in another thread. One of the managing dentists I work with is in his late 40's. Wife. kids. Seems happy enough. Graduated from NYU many yrs ago when the tuition was "less" 🙄 . . HE IS STILL PAYING OFF HIS NYU DS DEBT. You should be accumulating wealth in your 40's ... not paying off unsecured debt. He's accepted his fate and is being positive about it. What else can he do? Nothing.

Future happiness is financial freedom. It starts with having the stats or situation (military, scholarships, in-state, etc) to attend a reasonably priced DS. Then dentistry can be rewarding.
 
2TH MVR said:
I have a young, bright female patient who is in the process of applying to DS next cycle. I asked her what school she hopes to attend. She told me USC. I asked her if she was aware of the excessive tuition. I even brought it up to her father. But all I saw was her father beaming that his child was going to attend a DS and become a dentist. Now ... let me preface this by stating that I work for a Dental Corp who sees low income patients. Maybe he is affluent. Maybe not. I do not know nor am I going to speculate. But the half a million plus price tag to become a general dentist didn't seem to phase this person or her father. Is her father to be blamed? Well ... that's another discussion.

An above poster mentioned how someone making OMFS money can make the numbers work. But we're talking about being a general dentist.

There is no rationalizing going into this much DS debt to become a dentist. Oh ... they may say they will pay any price to have their dream job. To be a dentist. Lets be real people. Dentistry is hard, stressful work. If you become a practice owner ... then at least all your hard work will be validated. If you are forced to work in the Dental Corp trenches with tons of DS debt. Your life will suck. Endless working hours while chipping away at that huge DS debt.

I mentioned it in another thread. One of the managing dentists I work with is in his late 40's. Wife. kids. Seems happy enough. Graduated from NYU many yrs ago when the tuition was "less" 🙄 . . HE IS STILL PAYING OFF HIS NYU DS DEBT. You should be accumulating wealth in your 40's ... not paying off unsecured debt. He's accepted his fate and is being positive about it. What else can he do? Nothing.

Future happiness is financial freedom. It starts with having the stats or situation (military, scholarships, in-state, etc) to attend a reasonably priced DS. Then dentistry can be rewarding.
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I agree with all of this. But financial freedom alone does not determine happiness, and that is a very important point.

That being said, again I was only using OMFS to answer a specific question. You are correct that debt should be avoided if possible, and that financial freedom makes you happIER, all else equal.
 
Money in itself doesn’t create happiness. It just alleviates a lot of the stresses that people tend to deal with such as providing for a family, debt, unexpected expenses, providing opportunities for their children, helping parents slow down, etc.. imagine a life where money isn’t an issue and you can just focus on what really
makes you happy and fulfilled lol
 
I think we can all agree that money is not the end all to happiness. The difference though is that once you achieve financial freedom .... you CHOOSE how you want to live and work. Not financially independent because you attended NYU or any other overly expensive DS .... means debt servitude will be FORCED upon you. Fewer options. More stress if you plan to add a practice loan to your existing bloated DS loan. Will the banks even want to lend to you? If they do .... not sure you will qualify for low rates.

All of this can be avoided by not making that 1st mistake. DS should be an investment in your future. Not a ball and chain.
 
Dr.K124 said:
Yes. I'm a physician, not a dentist, but OMFS makes $538,000 on average according to the 2020 Doximity compensation survey. The maximum debt to income ratio for an optimal lifestyle is 2x. Therefore, so long as you're the average OMFS and your debt is less than $1M you'll be fine.
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If you graduate from NYU with 700k and then decide to become an OMFS you have 4-6 more years of tuition to cover, along with accrued interest on the 700k.
In other words, if you want to be an OMFS, DO NOT owe 700k from dental school
 
LaughingGas said:
When I see predents applying to those expensive schools and hoping to get in and needs to take out loans , it’s just sad to see how every year the class will be filled no matter what.
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But think about it. If NYU was your only option ... what are you going to do? It's easy for us armchair quarterbacks (current dentists, students in cheaper schools, military, etc. etc.) to say don't do it and find another profession. These students have invested alot of effort to get to this point. Most do not have a back up plan. Most will go to NYU knowing it is expensive. Just kicking the can down the road and dealing with it then. That's all they know.

In other words ... the prospective dental student won't make the right decision. This means the govt needs to step in and stop loaning money for excessive DS tuition. Cap it at 350K or some other number.

Lol at the politicians who want to eliminate college debt. Analogy alert. Leaky faucet keeps leaking. Politicians want to give out FREE (no such thing) buckets to contain the water. How about fixing the fricken faucet in the 1st place?
 
2TH MVR said:
But think about it. If NYU was your only option ... what are you going to do? It's easy for us armchair quarterbacks (current dentists, students in cheaper schools, military, etc. etc.) to say don't do it and find another profession.
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This is why predents shouldn’t risk putting themselves in this situation. Do not apply to NYU, or any similarly priced school for that matter! If you can’t get into a “reasonably” priced school, you might be better off financially rethinking your career plans.

Big Hoss
 
Ok so I actually took a look at the math and have to say OP's table is incredibly inaccurate. I fiddled around with the living expenses and still couldn't hit OP's 705k even with $2k +a month in living expenses and a $1600 room. Like, you really have to try to hit 705k debt, it's not like you go to NYU, live reasonably, and then suddenly owe 705k. NYU is expensive AF but it's not 705k expensive. If you're spending 2k+ a month as a student, then you are really something else. For reference, I am the live at home category and I am actually getting out for under that amount. I also have parents willing to pay a large portion of the debt which will lower my interest even more.

Yea we get it, NYU is expensive even at the low end, hell even if you live at home, but please stop making up random numbers without doing actual research.

In conclusion, expected tuition for students: 550k absolutely, 600k very likely, 650k maybe, 700k no.

NYU estimate.JPG
 
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DentGent13 said:
Ok so I actually took a look at the math and have to say OP's table is incredibly inaccurate. I fiddled around with the living expenses and still couldn't hit OP's 705k even with $2k +a month in living expenses and a $1600 room. Like, you really have to try to hit 705k debt, it's not like you go to NYU, live reasonably, and then suddenly owe 705k. NYU is expensive AF but it's not 705k expensive. If you're spending 2k+ a month as a student, then you are really something else. For reference, I am the live at home category and I am actually getting out for under that amount.

Yea we get it, NYU is expensive even at the low end, hell even if you live at home, but please stop making up random numbers without doing actual research.

In conclusion, expected tuition for students: 550k absolutely, 600k very likely, 650k maybe, 700k no.

View attachment 323711
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digging season 3 GIF
 
None of this is new. We all knew that NYU costs 550k-600k. It was only a couple of years ago that Studentloanplanner said NYU costs 673k which obviously was a stretch, but people ate that up. Now we have someone saying it costs 705k, which you wouldn't even reach now with $2k+ in monthly expenses, and you are still eating it all up. 40k living expenses as a student in NYC? 5k tuition hike when last year we had a 3k tuition hike? Whoever made that table made it for the sake of getting a rise out of you, not for the purpose of being helpful. I'm all for ****ting on NYU for hiking their tuition, I'm all for protesting the ridiculous tuition for dental schools, but can we please use better numbers instead of bad journalistic sensationalism? or are we going to see 800k NYU threads next year with random 7k tuition hikes and 60k expenses?
 
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DentGent13 said:
650k maybe, 700k no.
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DentGent13 said:
but can we please use better numbers instead of bad journalistic sensationalism?
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You say OP's off by maybe 50k. That's really not sensationalistic. Saying ECU costs 600k when it costs like 200k would be sensationalistic. The difference between 650k and 700k here is minimal because you're committing financial suicide either way. Also, you waived health insurance on your table for all 4 years. That's another 16k pre interest you could add to the 650k.
 
fermi555 said:
You say OP's off by maybe 50k. That's really not sensationalistic. Saying ECU costs 600k when it costs like 200k would be sensationalistic. The difference between 650k and 700k here is minimal because you're committing financial suicide either way. Also, you waived health insurance on your table for all 4 years. That's another 16k pre interest you could add to the 650k.
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First of all, I said that you can expect to pay 580k versus expected to pay 705k. Why did you focus on my high end 650k instead of the middle ground of 610k or even the expected minimum of 580k?

The sensationalistic part isn't the tuition, which would cost 400k pre-interest, because that's pretty concrete. The sensationalistic part is saying that a student needs to have $2k a month to live AFTER rent to live in NYC. The estimates for living expenses and tuition inflation are 33% higher than what it really should be. Like I said, we all know NYU is expensive and I'm all for ****ting on it but there's no need to artificially inflate any part of the expected costs to try and prove a point. The actual expected costs already does that.
 
DentGent13 said:
First of all, I said that you can expect to pay 580k versus expected to pay 705k. Why did you focus on my high end 650k instead of the middle ground of 610k or even the expected minimum of 580k?

The sensationalistic part isn't the tuition, which would cost 400k pre-interest, because that's pretty concrete. The sensationalistic part is saying that a student needs to have $2k a month to live AFTER rent to live in NYC. The estimates for living expenses and tuition inflation are 33% higher than what it really should be. Like I said, we all know NYU is expensive and I'm all for ****ting on it but there's no need to artificially inflate any part of the expected costs to try and prove a point. The actual expected costs already does that.
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I think the main point is 705k vs 580k vs 610k doesn’t really matter a general dentist will not be able to pay any of those off. You will be in severe debt with any of those amounts. Plus you waived health insurance and didn’t include interest which completely solidifies that unless someone is paying for you to attend the school you will be in an astronomical amount of debt. So you’re kind of preaching on deaf ears with the argument.
 
lol. The number doesn't really matter. After certain amount, it's financial suicide regardless. Plus, if you want to complain about the numbers not being accurate, do it to the "source". I clearly referenced the source. My message is pretty clear, in fact, trying to intimidate predents. Predents should really think when they sign the loan contract what it truly means to have very high debt with compound interest. Does it matter if you have 500k or 600k debt? My message is, you are pretty f****ed regardless if you don't have plan to get out of it.
 
Carmencitas said:
I think the main point is 705k vs 580k vs 610k doesn’t really matter a general dentist will not be able to pay any of those off. You will be in severe debt with any of those amounts. Plus you waived health insurance and didn’t include interest which completely solidifies that unless someone is paying for you to attend the school you will be in an astronomical amount of debt. So you’re kind of preaching on deaf ears with the argument.
Click to expand...
OK? I never argued against that point, but there is a big difference between using more accurate numbers like 580k and 705k. I would have said that again if it was for any other school like ~400k buffalo but someone makes a post titled "EXPECT 470k TUITION FOR BUFFALO." The fact that you all have to use pretty poor math to prove a point takes away from that point itself, which was my point to begin with and said multiple times. Don't need to use badly derived 705k to scare predents. Use an actual estimation and that should do the job.

And I didn't include interest?????????

Did you even look at my post? Because I used very literally two rows just to be transparent and I even used a higher interest rate than Studentloanplanners. I also used a higher tuition hike, they used 5k which I also used in my calculations, when it's really around 3k, but I guess you missed that part too. I'm also not entirely sure what the problem with waiving insurance is. An overwhelming majority of NYU students even out of state waived their health insurance.

NYU estimate 2.JPG


LaughingGas said:
lol. The number doesn't really matter. After certain amount, it's financial suicide regardless. Plus, if you want to complain about the numbers not being accurate, do it to the "source". I clearly referenced the source. My message is pretty clear, in fact, trying to intimidate predents. Predents should really think when they sign the loan contract what it truly means to have very high debt with compound interest. Does it matter if you have 500k or 600k debt? My message is, you are pretty f****ed regardless if you don't have plan to get out of it.
Click to expand...
But you didn't reference the source. The math was done by student loan planner, and you posted up a picture of it that references NYU. How many times have they posted an article with crappy math just to get people to use their services? And if it really doesn't matter, then we should have no problem using more appropriate estimations.
 
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Honestly, at this point, I don’t think anyone really cares about hypothetical numbers that can be altered with any given decision/circumstance. Just look at the tuition and fees that are determined by the program and everything else will depend on the individual. let’s move on! I feel like we’re beating a dead horse :beat:
 
600k or 700k... it’s still not worth it.

If this is your only path do becoming a dentist then use the brains that got you to this point and see that it is not worth it financially and pursue a different career. Both of my siblings make over 100k and one doesn’t even have a college degree and the other has a bachelors.
 
So basically I can see the argument is that NYU is not a worth school that people should go because of its expenses.
The most commonly seen premises are 1) a dental school is just a place where dentists get license, that is it 2) a school that costs more than 500k is not worth going to
conclusion: NYU is not worth it, people shouldn’t come.
Okay. Let’s assume that these two premises are in fact true and correct without doubt its validity and authenticity, then we should exam the conclusion again and ask that the unworthiness is due to NYU or NYC? From what I see and based on my research NYU is a good school in terms of its fair tuition rate among private schools, various extracurricular opportunities in outreach, research, patient pools. The issue of living expenses such as rent, food, transportation is not controlled by NYU. It is by NYC government as well as your personal financial management skills. Students should really need to ask themselves is that do I like NYC, do I think living in NYC is worth the money, and do I have budgeting skills because NYU itself is a great school in my opinion.
 
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