Experience - First five years out of school

[Cold Front]

If you like to drive new and different cars every 2-3 years, it's better to lease than to buy. With the lease option, the initial down payment and the monthly payments are significantly lower. You can switch to a newer better car 3-6 months before the end of your lease and not have to pay any penalty, if you lease it from the same dealership.

I've leased 9 different German cars in the past 15 years. I can tell you that all Mercedes and BMW cars are very unreliable. And they depreciate in value so fast. My current 750Li only has 54k miles and I have had to bring it in for repairs at least 8 times. The reason I keep on coming back to lease them is I pay nothing during the warranty period (4 years or 50k miles). By the time the warranty expires, I return the car and get a new one. I got numerous scratches on the cars and my kids spilled drinks and food everywhere. The most I had to pay for wear and tear on a vehicle was only $800. The excess mileage fee is not too bad either: 5000 miles x 25 cents/mile = about 100 bucks a month.

Vasco, sorry for derailing this thread but I can't resist when talking about cars. I've heard most Model S owners have been very happy with their cars and they all swear that they will never go back to drive a gasoline car again. I recently ordered a model S and am waiting for it to be built in Fremont. And I lease this one also.

I like to buy my cars, because I know I own it and the thought of being uber careful about little things and mileage restrictions for lease car owners never crossing my mind.

The rule of thumb is, if you can't afford to buy it, then lease it. Unless you own a business, which you do, then it makes sense.

Tesla drivers are not getting the premium high end interior finishes MB, BMW or Porsche has to offer. That was the deal killer for me. They may not care about it, but if I'm paying (or leasing) close to 6 figures car, that car better feel uber comfortable too in the inside. Yes, Tesla does have good chairs, but they are comparable to Honda Civic or Toyota Carola seats. I love Tesla cars, 70% of the car cost is probably in the battery technology, the exterior looks slick, but the rest feels like rushed. They have a long way to go before they catch up with the German cars interior options and finishes. Tesla is the future, and will only get better, but I will stick to 6/7 speed sticks for now. I just don't want to zoom around town like I'm in a TRON vehicle.

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[IHavePotential]

I like to buy my cars, because I know I own it and the thought of being uber careful about little things and mileage restrictions for lease car owners never crossing my mind.

The rule of thumb is, if you can't afford to buy it, then lease it. Unless you own a business, which you do, then it makes sense.

Tesla drivers are not getting the premium high end interior finishes MB, BMW or Porsche has to offer. That was the deal killer for me. They may not care about it, but if I'm paying (or leasing) close to 6 figures car, that car better feel uber comfortable too in the inside. Yes, Tesla does have good chairs, but they are comparable to Honda Civic or Toyota Carola seats. I love Tesla cars, 70% of the car cost is probably in the battery technology, the exterior looks slick, but the rest feels like rushed. They have a long way to go before they catch up with the German cars interior options and finishes. Tesla is the future, and will only get better, but I will stick to 6/7 speed sticks for now. I just don't want to zoom around town like I'm in a TRON vehicle.

^Rich dentist.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using SDN mobile app

 

[charlestweed]

I like to buy my cars, because I know I own it and the thought of being uber careful about little things and mileage restrictions for lease car owners never crossing my mind.

The rule of thumb is, if you can't afford to buy it, then lease it. Unless you own a business, which you do, then it makes sense.

Tesla drivers are not getting the premium high end interior finishes MB, BMW or Porsche has to offer. That was the deal killer for me. They may not care about it, but if I'm paying (or leasing) close to 6 figures car, that car better feel uber comfortable too in the inside. Yes, Tesla does have good chairs, but they are comparable to Honda Civic or Toyota Carola seats. I love Tesla cars, 70% of the car cost is probably in the battery technology, the exterior looks slick, but the rest feels like rushed. They have a long way to go before they catch up with the German cars interior options and finishes. Tesla is the future, and will only get better, but I will stick to 6/7 speed sticks for now. I just don't want to zoom around town like I'm in a TRON vehicle.

Actually, you are less careful about little things when you lease a car. Last time, the bmw service adviser recommended wheel alignment on my car. I declined because it's not my car and I didn't care. My kids kick the front seats and they spills food/drink everywhere. I am tired of it and can't wait to return it in a couple of months.

If you buy and switch cars every 2-3 years, you'll lose money big time. German cars depreciate so fast. They actually depreciate more after 3 years of owership than what I pay for the lease in 3 years. If you buy a car and then trade it in at the dealership, you lose even more money. Dealers pay very little for your used car. It makes more sense to buy if you drive a lot (more than 20-25k miles/year) and plan to keep the car for more than 6-7 years. The problem is most of the German cars won't last that long. And if they do last that long, it costs mucho dinero to maintain them. The cars that are worth buying and keeping for a long time are the reliable Japanese cars.

Most people who buy Tesla don't care about the luxury interior. They already enjoyed those luxury things on their previous cars. What they care about are many of the unique features that only Tesla has and other gasoline cars don't have. The Autopilot feature allows the car to drive by itself in heavy traffic in LA. You can pre-chill or pre-heat your car before you enter the car using the phone app. You can locate your car in a large busy parking lot using the GPS. With the phone app, you can start and drive the car even if you lose your key fob. You can browse the web on a large 17 inch screen. You can use the key fob to drive the car into a tight garage space without you sitting inside the car. The car accelerates smoothly (no jerking, no gear shifting) from 0-60 in 5 seconds. The car gets better with time because of over- the-air software updates....the list goes on and on. It's a pretty much a huge computer on wheels.

 

[Cold Front]

Actually, you are less careful about little things when you lease a car. Last time, the bmw service adviser recommended wheel alignment on my car. I declined because it's not my car and I didn't care. My kids kick the front seats and they spills food/drink everywhere. I am tired of it and can't wait to return it in a couple of months.

If you buy and switch cars every 2-3 years, you'll lose money big time. German cars depreciate so fast. They actually depreciate more after 3 years of owership than what I pay for the lease in 3 years. If you buy a car and then trade it in at the dealership, you lose even more money. Dealers pay very little for your used car. It makes more sense to buy if you drive a lot (more than 20-25k miles/year) and plan to keep the car for more than 6-7 years. The problem is most of the German cars won't last that long. And if they do last that long, it costs mucho dinero to maintain them. The cars that are worth buying and keeping for a long time are the reliable Japanese cars.

Most people who buy Tesla don't care about the luxury interior. They already enjoyed those luxury things on their previous cars. What they care about are many of the unique features that only Tesla has and other gasoline cars don't have. The Autopilot feature allows the car to drive by itself in heavy traffic in LA. You can pre-chill or pre-heat your car before you enter the car using the phone app. You can locate your car in a large busy parking lot using the GPS. With the phone app, you can start and drive the car even if you lose your key fob. You can browse the web on a large 17 inch screen. You can use the key fob to drive the car into a tight garage space without you sitting inside the car. The car accelerates smoothly (no jerking, no gear shifting) from 0-60 in 5 seconds. The car gets better with time because of over- the-air software updates....the list goes on and on. It's a pretty much a huge computer on wheels.

German cars depreciate, but people will pay big bucks to drive top of the line cars, just like they pay big bucks to live in certain neighborhoods or cities. When I purchased my Audi S5, it was pre-owned and had 5k on the clock, with a sticker price of $53k. 3.5 years and 45k miles later, I traded it in for $30k. I drove the car at its prime like it was my last ride, and have no complaints that it depreciated 44%. That is money well spent in my book. Brand new cars depreciate 10% the moment you drive them out of the dealership, while most cars depreciate 10-12% a year after that.

Like I said, I love Tesla, but they are not pound-for-pound worth the value they sell or lease for. If lithium battery wasn't expensive (which will be cheaper in the future), Tesla S would be a $40k car. All the bells and whistles you mentioned still doesn't justify $80-100k car. If you enjoy driving, get a sports car. If you don't, Tesla is a great choice.

 

[JakeSill]

@vasco @Cold Front Can a dentist afford a used 458 Italia or newer Gallardo...maybe an Aventador? How long will it take?

 

[Cold Front]

@vasco @Cold Front Can a dentist afford a 458 Italia or newer Gallardo...maybe an Aventador? How long will it take?

The answer to all those cars is - it depends.

1. You could save all the money you worked so hard for, from tons of sweat and stress, and buy any of those cars. If you solely focused on that, then "maybe".

2. Is it wise financial decision to spend $400k on Aventador when making $200-400k pre-tax income a year? Probably "no".

3. If you are making 7 figures a year with multiple offices, and paid off all your debt and took care of retirement savings, and still single... then "yes". I would also buy a Batman suite and beat bad guys in alleys at night too.

The chances of "option 3" happening is low, but not impossible.

I would not personally recommend anyone to spend more than $120k on a car, and all of those cars you mentioned are above that ceiling for me. There are plenty of alternatives, and even pre-owned "Fawawis".

 

[schmoob]

@vasco @Cold Front Can a dentist afford a used 458 Italia or newer Gallardo...maybe an Aventador? How long will it take?

Seriously?

 

[charlestweed]

Instead of wasting $300-400k on a supercar, I’d use that same amount to buy a house and rent it out. And then use the rental income to lease different cars every 3 years for the rest of my life. My tenant currently pays me $2175/month for renting my $300k house. I love renting houses to section 8 tenants. They rarely move out. They pay on time. And I can request the government for rent increase every 1-2 years.

Most people don’t drive a Lamborghini to work every day. It’s not an everyday commuting car. What’s the point of buying an expensive car and keep it in the garage most of the time? I like to lease a car and drive the heck out of it. After 3 years, I get rid of it and get another brand new leased car. With only $5k down, you can drive away a $100k car. For a 36 month lease program with 20k miles/year limit, you pay around $1400-1500/month, which is much lower than what you have to pay every month if you buy and finance it over 60 months.

 

[schmoob]

Instead of wasting $300-400k on a supercar, I’d use that same amount to buy a house and rent it out. And then use the rental income to lease different cars every 3 years for the rest of my life. My tenant currently pays me $2175/month for renting my $300k house. I love renting houses to section 8 tenants. They rarely move out. They pay on time. And I can request the government for rent increase every 1-2 years.

Most people don’t drive a Lamborghini to work every day. It’s not an everyday commuting car. What’s the point of buying an expensive car and keep it in the garage most of the time? I like to lease a car and drive the heck out of it. After 3 years, I get rid of it and get another brand new leased car. With only $5k down, you can drive away a $100k car. For a 36 month lease program with 20k miles/year limit, you pay around $1400-1500/month, which is much lower than what you have to pay every month if you buy and finance it over 60 months.

If you're paying $1500 p/m, plus $5K down for 36 months, that comes out to ~$60K. Personally, I don't see that as a good move financially. I'd rather buy a 1-2 year old $60K car and pay it off in 3 years. Now I have something that I own.

 

[charlestweed]

If you're paying $1500 p/m, plus $5K down for 36 months, that comes out to ~$60K. Personally, I don't see that as a good move financially. I'd rather buy a 1-2 year old $60K car and pay it off in 3 years. Now I have something that I own.

Nope, neither buying nor leasing cars is a good financial move. Buying an invesment home is. One obvious difference between a 100k car vs 60k car is one has a V8 400+ horsepower and one has a V6 300 horsepower. If your budget is a $60k car, then you can easily lease one and your lease payment will be $700-800/month. My point is you lose more money if you buy (less if you lease) and switch cars every 3 years. You may get more for your used car, if you sell it yourself instead of trading it in at the dealer.

We bought an Acura MDX because we knew it’s a reliable car, which we can easily keep for 6-7 years. After 50+k miles, the Acura still hasn’t given us any problem…..and the oil change cost is only $90 every 3 months. Once their warranties expire after 50k miles, the Mercedes and BMW cars will cost you a lot to maintain.

 

[vasco]

Those are all great choices for your next lease car. The RS7 and Panamera 4S are similar cars, and more practical than the Jag. If you just want to go for just pure sports car and looks, then the f-type R is the obvious choice. Tesla is way overpriced and doesn't come close to any of the good interior finishes of the other cars.

I have to admit, I miss my 2dr sports car, and will probably get Targa 4 GTS in couple of years. You can't go wrong with a Porsche, both in performance and service.

Targa GTS would be so awesome.

 

[vasco]

If you like to drive new and different cars every 2-3 years, it's better to lease than to buy. With the lease option, the initial down payment and the monthly payments are significantly lower. You can switch to a newer better car 3-6 months before the end of your lease and not have to pay any penalty, if you lease it from the same dealership.

I've leased 9 different German cars in the past 15 years. I can tell you that all Mercedes and BMW cars are very unreliable. And they depreciate in value so fast. My current 750Li only has 54k miles and I have had to bring it in for repairs at least 8 times. The reason I keep on coming back to lease them is I pay nothing during the warranty period (4 years or 50k miles). By the time the warranty expires, I return the car and get a new one. I got numerous scratches on the cars and my kids spilled drinks and food everywhere. The most I had to pay for wear and tear on a vehicle was only $800. The excess mileage fee is not too bad either: 5000 miles x 25 cents/mile = about 100 bucks a month.

Vasco, sorry for derailing this thread but I can't resist when talking about cars. I've heard most Model S owners have been very happy with their cars and they all swear that they will never go back to drive a gasoline car again. I recently ordered a model S and am waiting for it to be built in Fremont. And I lease this one also.

No worries! This is definitely a conversation I can get behind.

What has been your favorite leased auto? This is my first BMW and I've had it for just over two years. I have yet to have any problems with it.

I test drove the P90d the other day. The ludicrous speed is unparalleled by anything i've driven. I went right accross the street after I test drove it to the chevy dealership . I hopped in a stingray z07. It was most certainly not as fast.....but the z07 was so much more fun to drive. There is something to be said for the roar of the engine that makes you feel alive.

The technology of the tesla is so awesome. What model did you order?

 

[vasco]

Nope, neither buying nor leasing cars is a good financial move. Buying an invesment home is. One obvious difference between a 100k car vs 60k car is one has a V8 400+ horsepower and one has a V6 300 horsepower. If your budget is a $60k car, then you can easily lease one and your lease payment will be $700-800/month. My point is you lose more money if you buy (less if you lease) and switch cars every 3 years. You may get more for your used car, if you sell it yourself instead of trading it in at the dealer.

We bought an Acura MDX because we knew it’s a reliable car, which we can easily keep for 6-7 years. After 50+k miles, the Acura still hasn’t given us any problem…..and the oil change cost is only $90 every 3 months. Once their warranties expire after 50k miles, the Mercedes and BMW cars will cost you a lot to maintain.

Any tips you've picked up on negotiating leases? Do you run your lease through your business? If you do do you allocate money from each of your practices to pay for it, or does it only come out of one practice from an accounting standpoint?

 

[charlestweed]

No worries! This is definitely a conversation I can get behind.

What has been your favorite leased auto? This is my first BMW and I've had it for just over two years. I have yet to have any problems with it.

I test drove the P90d the other day. The ludicrous speed is unparalleled by anything i've driven. I went right accross the street after I test drove it to the chevy dealership . I hopped in a stingray z07. It was most certainly not as fast.....but the z07 was so much more fun to drive. There is something to be said for the roar of the engine that makes you feel alive.

This BMW 750Li is the fourth 7 series that I have leased. Before this car, I had a Mercedes CL550 coupe. It was a fun car to drive but it was inconvenient for the kids to get in and out of this 2- door coupe. Since I have to drop off the kids to school every day, I decided to go back to the 750Li. The reason I switch to Tesla is BMW reduces the warranty coverage from 4 years/50k miles to 3 years/36k miles on their 2017 cars. Another reason for switching is the Tesla’s Autopilot, which should make my daily commute less stressful. I have to travel to 6 different offices. According to this article, Tesla is still the king of semi-autonomous cars.

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...finiti-feature-2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-page-5

The technology of the tesla is so awesome. What model did you order?

Just a 75D. It’s a downgrade. The monthly payment for this model S will be $150 lower than what I currently pay for the 750Li. After test driving it, I found the 75D fast enough for me and not worth spending an extra $30k to upgrade to the P95D. I’d rather use the money to pay for the excess mileage. I know that I will drive this car at least 20k miles a year.

 

[charlestweed]

Any tips you've picked up on negotiating leases? Do you run your lease through your business? If you do do you allocate money from each of your practices to pay for it, or does it only come out of one practice from an accounting standpoint?

I must admit that I am terrible at negotiating leases. The problem with me is I get tired of cars easily. I’ve lost a lot of money for returning the cars early. When the model S is ready for me to pick up (hopefully next week), I will have to return the BMW and that will be 3 months before its lease ends. For future leases, I think will try the swapalease.com or leasetrader.com website to take over someone else’s car lease. I think it’s a good way to lease a fairly new car (that still has all the warranties) for a much shorter period of time without having to pay a lot.

I don’t know much about tax. I just give my cpa all the leasing info and trust him to handle everything for me.

 

[Cold Front]

Tesla has a new 2 years lease program that just came into my inbox. A good deal IMHO.

"A 2-year lease option is one of our most popular requests. We listened and are launching a limited time test of a 2-year lease on Model S and Model X. Starting at only $593/month (details here), our new 2-year lease program was designed just for you to drive electric today, and is available on all Model S and X orders placed by September 12th.

For additional savings, combine this offer with the Tesla Referral Program and apply a $1,000 credit towards your configuration. Just get the special personal code of any Tesla owner and enter it at the time of order."

 

[ysrebob]

Just to inject a sober note here for the benefit of current students:

I am 5 years out of school and I drive an 18-year old Subaru with a bad clutch. Could I afford a new car? Certainly, but I am cheap and am paying off a practice startup.

Most of my classmates five years out are driving newish but fairly modest cars to my knowledge.

If you are motivating yourself to get through Gross Anatomy with dreams if a Lamborghini in the garage, there is a chance that reality may disappoint you.

 

[WannabBigshot]

One quick question.

So you recommend gpr/aged.. However, it seems like you have done it well without it. So if you did, do you think something would have been different?
I'm sure there will be huge difference when you get a first official job, but what about after 5 or 10 years later? I guess it's all depends how I do CE courses and stuff..

 

[vasco]

One quick question.

So you recommend gpr/aged.. However, it seems like you have done it well without it. So if you did, do you think something would have been different?
I'm sure there will be huge difference when you get a first official job, but what about after 5 or 10 years later? I guess it's all depends how I do CE courses and stuff..

If I had done a GPR or AEGD I feel like it would have helped boost my productive capabilities in the short run. I would have possibly had more hands on training, and many more reps. You can get the same education outside of an AEGD or GPR through CE; however, in the residency you will have a cushy practice ground to try your newly acquired skills. In private practice it can be more difficult to practice your new skills because they are on "real patients" and you don't always have someone to bail you out.

It is very important that you get the right residency. If you get a residency that isn't strong in the areas that you are looking for, then you just wasted a year of your life. Many of my friends who did residencies didn't learn as much as they thought they would due to lack of reps in the areas they wanted. Best way to tell is word of mouth from dentists who went through the program.

 

[vasco]

On a side note...I just recently caught up with a few friends who I haven't talked to for a while. I now have my first few examples of friends who are not doing all that great in the field

1) Out of school five years, he is an associate in a private practice, he has had a hard time finding a good associate gig or practice to buy, for the last two years has averaged on 100k per year. West coast saturated market. He told me he has had a hard time making loan payments and has been doing the IBR program and that because he doesn't make enough to pay all of the interest that his total loans have ballooned to over 500k.

2) Productive associate for 4 years out of school (200+). Recently purchased his own office a year ago, struggling to build the patient base. His first year he told me he only had enough money left over in the business to pay himself 70k. East coast, average saturation. He has average loans from a state school and hasn't had a problem paying them until this year.

3) Slightly below average associate for three years. He says he averaged 130 with a corporate office those three years. He purchased a dental practice three years ago and has really struggled. His overhead is too high and he doesn't have the patient base that he needs. He told me that he has been only able to pay himself an average of 80k per year for the last three years. He wants to sell the office; however, no one will purchase it. He feels so stuck. Southwest moderate saturation. Due to his income he said that he hasn't made a loan payment in over a year and that his interest has really jacked up his total amount.

I was so surprised to learn this information. I share the examples to keep it honest. Like ysrebob said above, not every dentist will be killing it from day one. I believe that each of my friends will eventually get to where they want to be....It might just take them a little longer then they thought.

 

[Sanducan]

On a side note...I just recently caught up with a few friends who I haven't talked to for a while. I now have my first few examples of friends who are not doing all that great in the field

1) Out of school five years, he is an associate in a private practice, he has had a hard time finding a good associate gig or practice to buy, for the last two years has averaged on 100k per year. West coast saturated market. He told me he has had a hard time making loan payments and has been doing the IBR program and that because he doesn't make enough to pay all of the interest that his total loans have ballooned to over 500k.

2) Productive associate for 4 years out of school (200+). Recently purchased his own office a year ago, struggling to build the patient base. His first year he told me he only had enough money left over in the business to pay himself 70k. East coast, average saturation. He has average loans from a state school and hasn't had a problem paying them until this year.

3) Slightly below average associate for three years. He says he averaged 130 with a corporate office those three years. He purchased a dental practice three years ago and has really struggled. His overhead is too high and he doesn't have the patient base that he needs. He told me that he has been only able to pay himself an average of 80k per year for the last three years. He wants to sell the office; however, no one will purchase it. He feels so stuck. Southwest moderate saturation. Due to his income he said that he hasn't made a loan payment in over a year and that his interest has really jacked up his total amount.

I was so surprised to learn this information. I share the examples to keep it honest. Like ysrebob said above, not every dentist will be killing it from day one. I believe that each of my friends will eventually get to where they want to be....It might just take them a little longer then they thought.

Vasco, thank you very much for the update.

Did your fellow docs comment on the reason for them not succeeding in their own practices?
Could it be:

1. Bad location (no visibility)
2. Not implementing proper systems
3. Not controlling overhead
4. Hiring wrong staff
5. Very saturated area
6. Or just not good at running a business

Just curious to whether they really new what they were getting themselves into and made sure everything was button up.

 

[Sanducan]

Bump

 

[vasco]

Vasco, thank you very much for the update.

Did your fellow docs comment on the reason for them not succeeding in their own practices?
Could it be:

1. Bad location (no visibility)
2. Not implementing proper systems
3. Not controlling overhead
4. Hiring wrong staff
5. Very saturated area
6. Or just not good at running a business

Just curious to whether they really new what they were getting themselves into and made sure everything was button up.

1) The first one is just having a hard time finding an associate gig that can pay him what he needs. Most of the associate positions in his area are heavy insurance, and the reimbursement rates are very low. He hasn't been able to find a practice that makes sense for him to purchase. He is in the process of moving states. This dentist should be fine when he moves states and purchases an office.

2) This person purchased a bad office in my opinion. The office isn't in the best location and doesn't have a great patient flow. He will be ramping things up for years to come. I believe that he will have a successful office at some point....it will just take a few years to make as much money as he wants.

3) This person also purchased a bad office in my opinion. Poor location, saturated area, and small patient base. He was hoping to ramp things up...which he has...but just not to the level that he was looking for. This dentist is doomed. My guess is he will go bankrupt, and then have to associate for many years to come.

 

[WannabBigshot]

Dr Vasco,, I have another question/need advice from you. So I applied GPR/AEGD programs for next year, about 8 and mostly VAs. It's not done yet, but unfortunately, I haven't received any interview invites yet,, (4 of them already sent out interviews,,) If you were in my shoes, would you still try to find some residency or forget about it and try to find a job instead? I don't want to do bad one, but I want some extra training at the same time.. this is little frustrating,,,,

 

[Sanducan]

1) The first one is just having a hard time finding an associate gig that can pay him what he needs. Most of the associate positions in his area are heavy insurance, and the reimbursement rates are very low. He hasn't been able to find a practice that makes sense for him to purchase. He is in the process of moving states. This dentist should be fine when he moves states and purchases an office.

2) This person purchased a bad office in my opinion. The office isn't in the best location and doesn't have a great patient flow. He will be ramping things up for years to come. I believe that he will have a successful office at some point....it will just take a few years to make as much money as he wants.

3) This person also purchased a bad office in my opinion. Poor location, saturated area, and small patient base. He was hoping to ramp things up...which he has...but just not to the level that he was looking for. This dentist is doomed. My guess is he will go bankrupt, and then have to associate for many years to come.

Thanks for your response Vasco!

 

[GoldenDomer11]

1) The first one is just having a hard time finding an associate gig that can pay him what he needs. Most of the associate positions in his area are heavy insurance, and the reimbursement rates are very low. He hasn't been able to find a practice that makes sense for him to purchase. He is in the process of moving states. This dentist should be fine when he moves states and purchases an office.

2) This person purchased a bad office in my opinion. The office isn't in the best location and doesn't have a great patient flow. He will be ramping things up for years to come. I believe that he will have a successful office at some point....it will just take a few years to make as much money as he wants.

3) This person also purchased a bad office in my opinion. Poor location, saturated area, and small patient base. He was hoping to ramp things up...which he has...but just not to the level that he was looking for. This dentist is doomed. My guess is he will go bankrupt, and then have to associate for many years to come.

What states are the dentists trying to practice in? Or parts of the country if you want to be less specific?

 

[predental21250]

How do you determine if a location is saturated?

 

[Steins;Gate]

1) Would you say that your success is somewhat an anomaly?
Is sortof an answer? There are plenty of associates out there that earn that much money. The ones that I have worked with and have knowledge of have the "productive characterists" that I detailed in this post. I know more associates that make less then I did, than make in the 300 range. Here is a list of friends that I know who are associates and what they made last year. All in different parts of the country. One is in corporate and the rest are in private practice.

1) 250 molar endo, c and b
2) 200
3) 320 molar endo, heavy c and b
4) 350 implants, six month smiles, invisalign, molar endo, heavy c and b
5) 300 implants, six month smiles, molar endo, heavy c and b
6) 210
7) 200
8) 400 (corporate) mostly extractions and dentures
9) 170
10) 200
11) 250 molar endo, c and b

The ones that made the most all have in common those "productive characteristics". The rest of them either are missing a couple characteristics or don't have any of them. The best way to be successful in life is to spend your time learning from other successful people. My original post was based on what I learned from watching and listening to highly successful dentists. Some were practice owners and some were just associates.

2) Financially speaking, would specializing be a better option or is general dentistry (with a bit of elbow grease) capable of earning equal or greater amounts of money

It is so hard to play the income game. I understand why we do....its just so hard to get concrete data that translates to individuals. I can tell you what I have seen personally. On average my friends who are specialists make more money then my friends who are GPs. The dentists that I know that make more money then the specialists are excellent GPs that own their own office and offer a broad procedural mix and have low overheads, or large offices that have an economy of scale.

If you want to make more then everyone then you are a GP who owns and operate many practices. The people that I know that do this make 7 figures.

3) Also, are pediatric dentists able to work on adults as well? A pediatric dentist I shadowed worked on both and also did implants + invisalign, which likely upped his income by a lot.

I've never seen or heard of a pediatric dentist that works on adults. I've seen some work on teenage kids; however, they usually age out at 18 or so. I guess every state is different, but that would be really odd in my neck of the woods. GPs are very territorial when it comes to the people they refer to infringing on their possible revenue. For example I wouldn't refer any of my pediatric patients to a pediatric dentist who was doing implants, braces on adults. You wanted to devote your life to pedo....do pedo.

Vasco, do you have income figures from friends who are owners?

Also, would you pursue dentistry again? Have you ever considered the MD route?

 

[vasco]

Dr Vasco,, I have another question/need advice from you. So I applied GPR/AEGD programs for next year, about 8 and mostly VAs. It's not done yet, but unfortunately, I haven't received any interview invites yet,, (4 of them already sent out interviews,,) If you were in my shoes, would you still try to find some residency or forget about it and try to find a job instead? I don't want to do bad one, but I want some extra training at the same time.. this is little frustrating,,,,

Sorry for the late response....apparently i'm behind!


If you feel like you need some extra time with someone over your shoulder a GPR/AEGD is a good way to go. My friends who did them could try more advanced procedures and have someone there to guide you and bail you out if you need help. If that is something that you are looking for then go ahead and try to find one.

The tricky part is making sure you find an AEGD that won't be a waste of time. I have friends who went to residencies and thought they were going to place a ton of implants and it ended up just being 5th year of dental school.

If you feel like you are ready to jump ship and hit the ground running...go ahead and enter the work force. If you decided to go into the work force and you are still looking for more training, try to find one with a doc that works in the office that is willing to mentor you. I had the gift of great mentors right out of school who held my hand and taught me all of their "tricks".

I ultimately decided not to do a residency mostly based on money. I needed to make some money!

 

[vasco]

What states are the dentists trying to practice in? Or parts of the country if you want to be less specific?

1) Utah
2) North Carolina
3) Arizona

 

[vasco]

How do you determine if a location is saturated?

You can go about this a few ways. The best way in my opinion is to pay for a detailed demographic report related to the field of dentistry. Someone will compile a ridiculously detailed report that breaks down everything that you will need to know based on the area that you are looking at. They are fantastic.

This website details a good do it yourself method. http://www.dentalstartupacademy.com/dentist-to-population-ratio/

Now the interesting part is analyzing the data. Just like with treatment planning you can have two different dentists look at the same data and come up with different opinions.

It also helps to talk to the dental reps. They will have a good idea if the dentists are struggling or succeeding. Their information is very valuable.

 

[vasco]

Vasco, do you have income figures from friends who are owners?

Also, would you pursue dentistry again? Have you ever considered the MD route?

My owner friends are less reluctant to share their incomes than the associates are. But I do have some some intel.

1) I have a good friend in Utah who is doing really well. He does between 300-400 depending on the year.

2) Another good friend does 200-250 depending on the year (South Carolina).

3) The only other one that has shared information with me does 200-300 depending on the year. (Nebraska)

The key here is that my friends who are owners do much less dentistry (translate = easy work life) compared to my associate friends. The associates are busting their butts to make the same amount. Much easier to be an owner as far as procedures per day.

I would most certainly do dentistry again. Even if it cost me more then what I had to pay when I went to school. I love dentistry, Its a perfect fit for me.

I was never interested in being an MD. Just wasn't my thing. I don't like hospitals. And I'm happy with my decision. My good friend started MD school the same time I stated dental school in 2005. He just got his first job this year (2016). 4 years med school, 4 years ortho residency and a two year hand fellowship.

 

[Steins;Gate]

My owner friends are less reluctant to share their incomes than the associates are. But I do have some some intel.

1) I have a good friend in Utah who is doing really well. He does between 300-400 depending on the year.

2) Another good friend does 200-250 depending on the year (South Carolina).

3) The only other one that has shared information with me does 200-300 depending on the year. (Nebraska)

The key here is that my friends who are owners do much less dentistry (translate = easy work life) compared to my associate friends. The associates are busting their butts to make the same amount. Much easier to be an owner as far as procedures per day.

I would most certainly do dentistry again. Even if it cost me more then what I had to pay when I went to school. I love dentistry, Its a perfect fit for me.

I was never interested in being an MD. Just wasn't my thing. I don't like hospitals. And I'm happy with my decision. My good friend started MD school the same time I stated dental school in 2005. He just got his first job this year (2016). 4 years med school, 4 years ortho residency and a two year hand fellowship.

Thanks Vasco!

What's a perfect fit for dentistry?

 

[noles]

1) Would you say that your success is somewhat an anomaly?
Is sortof an answer? There are plenty of associates out there that earn that much money. The ones that I have worked with and have knowledge of have the "productive characterists" that I detailed in this post. I know more associates that make less then I did, than make in the 300 range. Here is a list of friends that I know who are associates and what they made last year. All in different parts of the country. One is in corporate and the rest are in private practice.

1) 250 molar endo, c and b
2) 200
3) 320 molar endo, heavy c and b
4) 350 implants, six month smiles, invisalign, molar endo, heavy c and b
5) 300 implants, six month smiles, molar endo, heavy c and b
6) 210
7) 200
8) 400 (corporate) mostly extractions and dentures
9) 170
10) 200
11) 250 molar endo, c and b

The ones that made the most all have in common those "productive characteristics". The rest of them either are missing a couple characteristics or don't have any of them. The best way to be successful in life is to spend your time learning from other successful people. My original post was based on what I learned from watching and listening to highly successful dentists. Some were practice owners and some were just associates.

Question about #8... 400k (corporate) doing mostly extractions and dentures. What corporate office and what state/location?

 

[wengerout]

My owner friends are less reluctant to share their incomes than the associates are. But I do have some some intel.

1) I have a good friend in Utah who is doing really well. He does between 300-400 depending on the year.

2) Another good friend does 200-250 depending on the year (South Carolina).

3) The only other one that has shared information with me does 200-300 depending on the year. (Nebraska)

The key here is that my friends who are owners do much less dentistry (translate = easy work life) compared to my associate friends. The associates are busting their butts to make the same amount. Much easier to be an owner as far as procedures per day.

I would most certainly do dentistry again. Even if it cost me more then what I had to pay when I went to school. I love dentistry, Its a perfect fit for me.

I was never interested in being an MD. Just wasn't my thing. I don't like hospitals. And I'm happy with my decision. My good friend started MD school the same time I stated dental school in 2005. He just got his first job this year (2016). 4 years med school, 4 years ortho residency and a two year hand fellowship.

400 as a GP? That's impressive, thought that was a salary really only attainable by specialist.


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[schmoob]

400 as a GP? That's impressive, thought that was a salary really only attainable by specialist.


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This is what I've been trying to say!
Good for them though.

 

[Medin2017]

400 as a GP? That's impressive, thought that was a salary really only attainable by specialist.


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Yea this was the post that made me reconsider what I wanted to do in the future, but I kinda came to the conclusion of these people being outliers or right time/right place good businesspeople dentists. Felt like reading this thread is akin to predents knowing "that successful dentist" out there but is not the norm.

 

[cacajuate]

400 as a GP? That's impressive, thought that was a salary really only attainable by specialist.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Plenty do it, just have to be an owner.


800k collection at 50% overhead. Easier said than done, but definitely do able if you can figure out how to run a tight ship.

 

[Medin2017]

It is not that uncommon for GPs to hit these numbers around me. GP incomes are under reported by the ADA. ADA specialty incomes are even further off. AAO reports orthos avg $440

oh mostly from what I've read on dentaltown or SDN not ppl around me. And a dental school advertising income of dentists on average. Also among the ones I shadowed. 3/4 were not doing so hot. Maybe b/c I live in a semi big city (not as bad as cali or NY but still probably saturated a bit). I think in regard to 200-250 or 200-300 you're right, but a 300+ dentist I feel wouldn't be as common. Stay away from orthodontics also had orthos complaining and saying AAO was not helping or something. Hard to believe anything these days

Edit: nvm they said the AAO has not been helping the bad situation of orthos not what I previously wrote.

 

[Medin2017]

Of course 200-300 is far more common than 300+, but it is very very attainable to hit that threshold. With ortho, there are many that make 440 just by waking up in the morning while there are many that struggle just to hit 300. Ortho is a sales job. Some do well, some don't. It's not going anywhere.

I think we need to be thinking in the context of old vs young dentists/specialists. I highly doubt young orthos (most of them) are waking up and hitting even 250+ easily. And saturation will only suffer more with for profit residencies correct?

Yea not saying 300+ isn't attainable, just that odds are not that high. Unless of course you work many more hours but most ppl who came into dentistry don't seem to want that. Opening in the perfect place or inheriting mom's or dad's clinic may make it easier too

 

[Medin2017]

Saturation is probably the biggest threat, but there are many docs that are in their late 50's and 60's that will be retiring. Then again, orthos don't retire, they get sick or die.

Odds are pretty good if you want to make that much.

Hopefully more ppl can chime in on this. High odds of making 300+ would be pretty cool considering the doom and gloom dished out on every forum post I see other than this specific one.

 

[wengerout]

It is not that uncommon for GPs to hit these numbers around me. GP incomes are under reported by the ADA. ADA specialty incomes are even further off. AAO reports orthos avg $440

Do you have a source that you find better represents the income of GP/the other specialties in your opinion?

 

[wengerout]

oh mostly from what I've read on dentaltown or SDN not ppl around me. And a dental school advertising income of dentists on average. Also among the ones I shadowed. 3/4 were not doing so hot. Maybe b/c I live in a semi big city (not as bad as cali or NY but still probably saturated a bit). I think in regard to 200-250 or 200-300 you're right, but a 300+ dentist I feel wouldn't be as common. Stay away from orthodontics also had orthos complaining and saying AAO was not helping or something. Hard to believe anything these days

Edit: nvm they said the AAO has not been helping the bad situation of orthos not what I previously wrote.

Funny enough of all the GP's I shadowed they all seemed to be doing decently, with one making a killing (Dude is a super GP and has a Rolls-Royce). I can only imagine how much he is making but respect him too much to ask. However as you said I feel like these are more outliers than the norm. The super GP I shadowed was in a more rural area that is nearly two hours away from the nearest big city (But near a college town).

 

[Medin2017]

Do you have a source that you find better represents the income of GP/the other specialties in your opinion?

I honestly don't see why ADA would underreport. It's just a survey sent out to thousands of private practice dentists and like 10% answer it. If they desired to underestimate wages (god knows why), why wouldn't they just link the bls survey or other government surveys to their website? And even if they did underestimate the net income, it doesn't change the fact that supply for general dentists has increased while demand is stagnating and wages are dropping. Wages dropping according to ADA, the other 2 facts from a graph I saw on dentaltown. Not to mention corporate slowly but surely on the rise.

 

[Medin2017]

The ADA doesn't purposely do it

Think in another post someone was saying ADA was sketch on the income thing (like we don't know their motives) so I was referring to that.

 

[TanMan]

Thread from the dead.... Gonna chime in on the thread + 5 yrs out.

@vasco @Cold Front Can a dentist afford a used 458 Italia or newer Gallardo...maybe an Aventador? How long will it take?

YES. you can even get a new one if you want. The answer depends on how much you can save up. If you have kids, family, etc... not so much. Could be as little as a few months to a 1+ yrs to save up and depending on where you are with your professional life.

Just to inject a sober note here for the benefit of current students:

I am 5 years out of school and I drive an 18-year old Subaru with a bad clutch. Could I afford a new car? Certainly, but I am cheap and am paying off a practice startup.

Most of my classmates five years out are driving newish but fairly modest cars to my knowledge.

If you are motivating yourself to get through Gross Anatomy with dreams if a Lamborghini in the garage, there is a chance that reality may disappoint you.

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here and say that its definitely doable and any dentist can attain that dream of having a Lambo in the garage. I'm also 5 yrs out and a Lambo is within my reach if I wanted to, but they are right, its not a practical daily driver. I ended up getting an i8 instead as my DD (On a side note, I normally hate BMW's and think this is the only worthwhile BMW). I'll even go as far as to say that you'll make so much money as a dentist that you'll need extra garage space. Should you invest your money first? Definitely! Once your investments beyond dentistry are paying off, then enjoy the spoils of war (fruits of labor for those anti-war). That's the whole point of why you work so hard in the first place. You won't do it as an associate or employee, but you'll do it as a practice owner. I don't think those ADA surveys are very accurate.

Now in terms of leasing or buying... leasing is better if cash flow is a concern and you want a new car every few years. I'm with cold front that I would rather purchase my vehicles. I'm not gunning just to have the newest vehicles, but vehicles that I can collect over time. My lawyers have advised me to never place my vehicles under my business name due to extreme liability that they can generate, even though they can provide some tax benefits.

 

[periopocket]

Thread from the dead.... Gonna chime in on the thread + 5 yrs out.



YES. you can even get a new one if you want. The answer depends on how much you can save up. If you have kids, family, etc... not so much. Could be as little as a few months to a 1+ yrs to save up and depending on where you are with your professional life.



I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here and say that its definitely doable and any dentist can attain that dream of having a Lambo in the garage. I'm also 5 yrs out and a Lambo is within my reach if I wanted to, but they are right, its not a practical daily driver. I ended up getting an i8 instead as my DD (On a side note, I normally hate BMW's and think this is the only worthwhile BMW). I'll even go as far as to say that you'll make so much money as a dentist that you'll need extra garage space. Should you invest your money first? Definitely! Once your investments beyond dentistry are paying off, then enjoy the spoils of war (fruits of labor for those anti-war). That's the whole point of why you work so hard in the first place. You won't do it as an associate or employee, but you'll do it as a practice owner. I don't think those ADA surveys are very accurate.

Now in terms of leasing or buying... leasing is better if cash flow is a concern and you want a new car every few years. I'm with cold front that I would rather purchase my vehicles. I'm not gunning just to have the newest vehicles, but vehicles that I can collect over time. My lawyers have advised me to never place my vehicles under my business name due to extreme liability that they can generate, even though they can provide some tax benefits.

I love the I8 sweet choice my man!


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[wengerout]

Thread from the dead.... Gonna chime in on the thread + 5 yrs out.



YES. you can even get a new one if you want. The answer depends on how much you can save up. If you have kids, family, etc... not so much. Could be as little as a few months to a 1+ yrs to save up and depending on where you are with your professional life.



I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here and say that its definitely doable and any dentist can attain that dream of having a Lambo in the garage. I'm also 5 yrs out and a Lambo is within my reach if I wanted to, but they are right, its not a practical daily driver. I ended up getting an i8 instead as my DD (On a side note, I normally hate BMW's and think this is the only worthwhile BMW). I'll even go as far as to say that you'll make so much money as a dentist that you'll need extra garage space. Should you invest your money first? Definitely! Once your investments beyond dentistry are paying off, then enjoy the spoils of war (fruits of labor for those anti-war). That's the whole point of why you work so hard in the first place. You won't do it as an associate or employee, but you'll do it as a practice owner. I don't think those ADA surveys are very accurate.

Now in terms of leasing or buying... leasing is better if cash flow is a concern and you want a new car every few years. I'm with cold front that I would rather purchase my vehicles. I'm not gunning just to have the newest vehicles, but vehicles that I can collect over time. My lawyers have advised me to never place my vehicles under my business name due to extreme liability that they can generate, even though they can provide some tax benefits.

Not gonna lie I'm a huge gear head so I'm very jealous . Would love to have an R8 one day.


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[Chipotlegonewild]

Thread from the dead.... Gonna chime in on the thread + 5 yrs out.



YES. you can even get a new one if you want. The answer depends on how much you can save up. If you have kids, family, etc... not so much. Could be as little as a few months to a 1+ yrs to save up and depending on where you are with your professional life.



I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here and say that its definitely doable and any dentist can attain that dream of having a Lambo in the garage. I'm also 5 yrs out and a Lambo is within my reach if I wanted to, but they are right, its not a practical daily driver. I ended up getting an i8 instead as my DD (On a side note, I normally hate BMW's and think this is the only worthwhile BMW). I'll even go as far as to say that you'll make so much money as a dentist that you'll need extra garage space. Should you invest your money first? Definitely! Once your investments beyond dentistry are paying off, then enjoy the spoils of war (fruits of labor for those anti-war). That's the whole point of why you work so hard in the first place. You won't do it as an associate or employee, but you'll do it as a practice owner. I don't think those ADA surveys are very accurate.

Now in terms of leasing or buying... leasing is better if cash flow is a concern and you want a new car every few years. I'm with cold front that I would rather purchase my vehicles. I'm not gunning just to have the newest vehicles, but vehicles that I can collect over time. My lawyers have advised me to never place my vehicles under my business name due to extreme liability that they can generate, even though they can provide some tax benefits.

Post a pic of the i8 with a paper with "tanman" on it cuz I don't believe you.

 

[TanMan]

Post a pic of the i8 with a paper with "tanman" on it cuz I don't believe you.

You don't have to believe me, and I hate being questioned, so here's some pics of my car when I first got it. Reverse image search these if you don't believe that these are original.

Yes, I have two other cars and I did blur out the license plates because I am a little paranoid,

I'm having a clear bra and other things installed all around right now, so when I get it back, I'll make sure to dedicate the post just for you.