Explain New Traffic Rules

[Moose97]

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You can hold as many waitlists after 4/30 and can take acceptance from these after 4/30

Since I would have to put down a deposit for the one acceptance, I would just lose the deposit if I go somewhere else?

 

[medimed2]

have y'all found that these new traffic rules are slowing down the rate of acceptances? I have been under consideration post-interview for a school since September. Do you think waitlists will be used more heavily?

 

[907914]

have y'all found that these new traffic rules are slowing down the rate of acceptances? I have been under consideration post-interview for a school since September. Do you think waitlists will be used more heavily?

This is the trial run of the new system, but it is likely they will use the waitlist more heavily. This way they can have an idea of how many empty seats are still left come end of cycle and have a larger pool of potential applicants to pull from.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not making these decisions but if I were, I'd be as generous with merit offers as in the past (trying to snag those highly desirable applicants) and very conservative in making offers of admission with the expectation that a high proportion will say yes but having a rather large pool to choose from when the dust settles and we know how many empty seats we have. The risk is to lose highly desirable applicants who will be insulted to have been waitlisted at my school and accepted outright to what they perceive as an equally prestigious school. On the other hand, we might improve our yield by only taking those people who choose to stay on our waitlist after May 1 and who choose us over their other option on May 2.

 

[medimed2]

I'm not making these decisions but if I were, I'd be as generous with merit offers as in the past (trying to snag those highly desirable applicants) and very conservative in making offers of admission with the expectation that a high proportion will say yes but having a rather large pool to choose from when the dust settles and we know how many empty seats we have. The risk is to lose highly desirable applicants who will be insulted to have been waitlisted at my school and accepted outright to what they perceive as an equally prestigious school. On the other hand, we might improve our yield by only taking those people who choose to stay on our waitlist after May 1 and who choose us over their other option on May 2.

Thanks a lot for the response. Considering that I have not gotten a response post-interview and interviewed 4+ months ago, do you think if I get accepted it will be off the waitlist? If not, do you know of some general dates I should be anticipating an answer?

 

[LizzyM]

Schools must make at least as many offers as they have seats by some date in March (March 15th??). Some schools hold all decisions until March and others hold some back until figure out how "the middle" of the pack sorts itself out in terms of ranking post-interview.

Some schools may continue to roll the dice and take a chance on making far more offers than they have seats with the assumption that many of the hottest prospects will have multiple offers and many (most) of those applicants will choose to go elsewhere.

Some schools may play it safe, make the number of offers they are required to make according to the rules and then see what happens after the dust settles. It is also possible that some schools may tell applicants that they are open to updates and letters of interest and then choose applicants who make that extra effort. However, I'd recommend this approach only at schools that express an openess to it when you are there for the interview.

 

[medimed2]

Thank you, LizzyM.

@Med Ed @gyngyn @Catalystik @gonnif do you have any thoughts?

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you, LizzyM.

@Med Ed @gyngyn @Catalystik @gonnif do you have any thoughts?

Like any dramatic change, there will be winners, losers and unpredictable consequences.
Since medical schools are already risk-averse, it is more likely that schools will stop short of their usual number of acceptances and manage the outcome with the waitlist.
Since there is no downside (except to the students) to this strategy, it is what I imagine most schools will do.

 

[965978]

Like any dramatic change, there will be winners, losers and unpredictable consequences.
Since medical schools are already risk-averse, it is more likely that schools will stop short of their usual number of acceptances and manage the outcome with the waitlist.
Since there is no downside (except to the students) to this strategy, it is what I imagine most schools will do.

Totally off question but is it at all possible that some schools are offering less interview spots this year to make the post-II processes more manageable?

 

[gyngyn]

Totally off question but is it at all possible that some schools are offering less interview spots this year to make the post-II processes more manageable?

I'll bet the opposite is true.

 

[KrispyMed]

Due to the likelihood of larger waitlists based on the new traffic, is it safe to assume that LOI's will carry a higher weight? Specifically pre-April 30th?

 

[Toutie]

Due to the likelihood of larger waitlists based on the new traffic, is it safe to assume that LOI's will carry a higher weight? Specifically pre-April 30th?

No way to determine that. But it's a possibility for some schools.

 

[LizzyM]

Due to the likelihood of larger waitlists based on the new traffic, is it safe to assume that LOI's will carry a higher weight? Specifically pre-April 30th?

Maybe but admissions office decisionmakers tend not to trust them because they've been burnt in the past.

 

[premedalt]

Maybe but admissions office decisionmakers tend not to trust them because they've been burnt in the past.

Wouldn't you say that there's a higher chance that the applicant who writes a LOI is more likely to matriculate to that school than someone who didn't? Wouldn't you agree that it at least serves as an indicator of who is currently more "available"?

 

[907914]

Wouldn't you say that there's a higher chance that the applicant who writes a LOI is more likely to matriculate to that school than someone who didn't? Wouldn't you agree that it at least serves as an indicator of who is currently more "available"?

It probably can indicate someone who is more available...because the student sending an LOI to one school is sending them to every school because they are frantic that they haven’t gotten in anywhere yet. Am I just being pessimistic?

 

[LizzyM]

Wouldn't you say that there's a higher chance that the applicant who writes a LOI is more likely to matriculate to that school than someone who didn't? Wouldn't you agree that it at least serves as an indicator of who is currently more "available"?

Right, they are available until they get three offers and then they jump ship... no one sees them as binding and if you want to fill the class and not over-fill it and protect your yield by avoiding making offers that will be turned down (a minor concern but a concern for some) you might want to play it very safe.

 

[965978]

Right, they are available until they get three offers and then they jump ship... no one sees them as binding and if you want to fill the class and not over-fill it and protect your yield by avoiding making offers that will be turned down (a minor concern but a concern for some) you might want to play it very safe.

What if an applicant were to send an LOI in April and were to say “I have had no other interviews and therefore I am on no other waiting list”.

I don’t think it reeks of desperation. Only getting one II shouldn’t be something to be ashamed of. And certainly if the only hope is a single waitlist in April then the applicant is probably (in fact likely should be) praying day and night that they get in.

 

[premedalt]

Right, they are available until they get three offers and then they jump ship... no one sees them as binding and if you want to fill the class and not over-fill it and protect your yield by avoiding making offers that will be turned down (a minor concern but a concern for some) you might want to play it very safe.

I agree, it is very possible that they will get a better offer later on. But the LOI does mean that currently, that applicant isn't accepted to anywhere better. We can't say the same for an applicant who hasn't sent in a LOI. Thus in terms of yield, wouldn't it be a better idea to accept students who we know for sure don't currently have a better offer?

 

[gyngyn]

What if an applicant were to send an LOI in April and were to say “I have had no other interviews and therefore I am on no other waiting list”.

I want to believe.
Sadly, I have decades of seeing how little these promises mean.
I have had applicants tell of the other acceptances they would turn down (that they didn't have).
I have seen more promises broken than kept.

 

[965978]

I want to believe.
Sadly, I have decades of seeing how little these promises mean.
I have had applicants tell of the other acceptances they would turn down (that they didn't have).
I have seen more promises broken than kept.

Not keeping a promise is one thing, but blatantly lying.... isn't that grounds for acceptance revocation?

 

[gyngyn]

Not keeping a promise is one thing, but blatantly lying.... isn't that grounds for acceptance revocation?

I have only had waitlisted candidates lie outright.

 

[965978]

I have only had waitlisted candidates lie outright.

Wow. Being waitlisted really bring out the worst in people.

Well, that and Bud Light lime.....

 

[LizzyM]

What if an applicant were to send an LOI in April and were to say “I have had no other interviews and therefore I am on no other waiting list”.

I don’t think it reeks of desperation.

Then we have different definitions of desperation. Can you imagine someone going around with a tee shirt saying, "I haven't been asked to prom yet. Please ask me."

Of course, by August a school with an empty seat can be desperate too so a LOI in August might be effective.

 

[medimed2]

for the adcoms on this thread, how have you gone about the process this year? everywhere I read, there seems to be a lot of guessing what schools are doing this year

 

[907914]

for the adcoms on this thread, how have you gone about the process this year? everywhere I read, there seems to be a lot of guessing what schools are doing this year

It is not late enough in the cycle for even the ADCOMS to know. Up until now, everything is basically the same as previous cycles.

 

[medimed2]

It is not late enough in the cycle for even the ADCOMS to know. Up until now, everything is basically the same as previous cycles.

I have read that fewer interviewees are being accepted outright right away at some schools. I have also seen that some schools have new categories post-ii (e.g. "deferred, but strongly interested")

Seems like adcoms probably know some things now.

 

[DrFortiusNatando]

Then we have different definitions of desperation. Can you imagine someone going around with a tee shirt saying, "I haven't been asked to prom yet. Please ask me."

Of course, by August a school with an empty seat can be desperate too so a LOI in August might be effective.

The dean of admissions IS desperate when it gets late summer bc we do want to seat a full class. We will not poach students who have started at other schools, (used to be prohibited!), and since we start later than a lot of schools, there have been some few, lucky applicants who have gotten a last-minute call because we knew they would make their decision immediately. These are sometimes students who are already working at our institution or have other ties to the area, but rarely identified by their enthusiastic letters. We get a lot of those!!! One well-crafted enthusiastic update letter can not hurt though and the schools seem to make it clear how much they want to be shown the love from those on their WL. Like most things in life, it is your job to figure out "the rules" - explicit and sometimes implicit - and then follow them!

 

[puahate]

As premeds we are fodder. When it comes to the game of medical acceptance you gotta do what you gotta do. If the LOI game is your only shot you better be sending LOIs to all the schools you are WL in.

 

[puahate]

So you think its ethical to send multiple letters of intent? Seems ironic that you want to do a questionably unethical act in order to gain entrance to a profession that requires ethical standards. Additionally, a badly written LOI can hurt you now and if you are a reapplicant. Why? Imagine how things get filed, with the latest document being placed on top. Now imagine next year when I read your previous application (and virtually all schools will read your previous application) and the first thing I see is a poorly written, possibly desperate plea. Would this be a bad place for a reviewer to now start reading your new application

I think sending multiple LOI is like the lowest unethical thing you could do. You aren't forging a transcript, You are not commiting a crime. You are basically telling every girls you see that you love them in hopes of getting that girl to go to prom with you. Is it scummy? Sure, but it is not really that bad considering how some schools will outright take your application money and give you a silent R. For the most part there is no one looking out for you but yourself.

Desperate times call for things like this. I think crafting a decent well thought LOI to the schools that matter most to you (ie not all the schools you are WLed in, an LOI to Yale probably does not do anything) is something an applicant should try. The worst thing that can happen is what you stated, the best thing that can happen is eventually getting off the WL. With those odds I think it is better to send 3-5 well crafted LOIs to high, mid and low tier schools just so you don't ruin your chances to all the schools you applied to in your reapplication.

At the end of the day premeds are fodder, nothing more. These schools do not care about you they are trying to meet THEIR needs and have the funds to do that. Most premeds DON'T. Sending a LOI is cheaper than reapplying.

Would I personally do it? I do not think I will. I am hoping I already have As by this time around and I would hate to beg to these institutions but I rather beg than go back to being a premed for two more years, being a lab slave, scribe slave or EMT slave.

Yes multiple LOI are scummy but you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[premedalt]

Really, you dont think this reeks of desperation? You are kidding me? You are telling the school that nobody else was even interested in me, just you guys, and that just might be an indication of how weak a candidate I really am. Premeds often see things only in their own optimistic light, frequently saying "It cant hurt". Everything, everything has risks and downsides and you must be able to identify them, see them, and mitigate them. After reading this letter I might take action on the candidates file by moving it to the bottom of the pile

Would it be okay to send it then if you have other acceptances?

 

[bball0718]

Yes multiple LOI are scummy but you gotta do what you gotta do.

No, you don’t.

 

[deleted787552]

I have only had waitlisted candidates lie outright.

I will add your response to my ever growing file of "really bad premed ideas"

It is scummy but before, there were at least acceptance reports for adcoms to know whether applicants were lying. Now that those are gone, is there really a way for you all to even tell?

 

[premedalt]

And that is key. Most LOI and other candidate letters are so poorly written. LOIs far too frequently sound like pleas of desperation that it does more harm than good



So you think its ethical to send multiple letters of intent? Seems ironic that you want to do a questionably unethical act in order to gain entrance to a profession that requires ethical standards. Additionally, a badly written LOI can hurt you now and if you are a reapplicant. Why? Imagine how things get filed, with the latest document being placed on top. Now imagine next year when I read your previous application (and virtually all schools will read your previous application) and the first thing I see is a poorly written, possibly desperate plea. Would this be a bad place for a reviewer to now start reading your new application

Ironic that schools themselves act unethically by telling applicants to still send them secondaries in January...

 

[puahate]

No, you don’t.

Ok

 

[965978]

Really, you dont think this reeks of desperation? You are kidding me? You are telling the school that nobody else was even interested in me, just you guys, and that just might be an indication of how weak a candidate I really am. Premeds often see things only in their own optimistic light, frequently saying "It cant hurt". Everything, everything has risks and downsides and you must be able to identify them, see them, and mitigate them. After reading this letter I might take action on the candidates file by moving it to the bottom of the pile

My apologizes, I misspoke. I meant that even if it does seem desperate, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Tons people get denied every year (60%) to be exact. And half of the 40% of that do get in only get into one (many off them off the waitlist I presume). Not even to mention the fact that I would bet my life that a good, large, meaty chunk of the 40% getting in are pretty much easy accepts at in-state schools from very low populated states.

So, no, I don't think it's anything to be ashamed of to only have one II and then only have one waitlist. Sure, the applicant obviously didn't have a glamorous cycle but that doesn't mean the applicant is nearly as weak as you are implying.

 

[premedalt]

The LOI letter you intended to write is what you look weak!

Do adcoms really go:

"Oh ****! Check out this applicant! They wrote a LOI last cycle lmao. What a loser. Throw this application in the never to be accepted pile"

Or do they go:

"Huh okay a letter of intent explaining why they would be a good fit for this school. I'll take this into consideration when evaluating this applicant"

 

[RNtoMD87]

I think sending multiple LOI is like the lowest unethical thing you could do. You aren't forging a transcript, You are not commiting a crime. You are basically telling every girls you see that you love them in hopes of getting that girl to go to prom with you. Is it scummy? Sure, but it is not really that bad considering how some schools will outright take your application money and give you a silent R. For the most part there is no one looking out for you but yourself.

Desperate times call for things like this. I think crafting a decent well thought LOI to the schools that matter most to you (ie not all the schools you are WLed in, an LOI to Yale probably does not do anything) is something an applicant should try. The worst thing that can happen is what you stated, the best thing that can happen is eventually getting off the WL. With those odds I think it is better to send 3-5 well crafted LOIs to high, mid and low tier schools just so you don't ruin your chances to all the schools you applied to in your reapplication.

At the end of the day premeds are fodder, nothing more. These schools do not care about you they are trying to meet THEIR needs and have the funds to do that. Most premeds DON'T. Sending a LOI is cheaper than reapplying.

Would I personally do it? I do not think I will. I am hoping I already have As by this time around and I would hate to beg to these institutions but I rather beg than go back to being a premed for two more years, being a lab slave, scribe slave or EMT slave.

Yes multiple LOI are scummy but you gotta do what you gotta do.

I agree completely. It’s douchey, but is it really douchier than schools accepting far more applications than they can accept, all to get that money?

Is the guy telling all the girls he loves them for a date ethically inferior to the girls saying “buy me a diamond ring and I’ll consider it” to far more guys than she knows she has time for, including ones she immediately knows she would never date?

Why don’t schools have more weed out criteria where you can’t even apply if you don’t meet those rules?

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Ironic that schools themselves act unethically by telling applicants to still send them secondaries in January...

Don’t be dramatic. That is nowhere near the definition of “unethical”. Setting a deadline is just logistical; the onus is on applicants to understand if/why submitting near a deadline is disadvantageous for them to do so.

 

[premedalt]

imagine this: I am now about to review a new application and I see this is reapplicant. So I now open up the previous file and the first thing I read, the first thing that is going to make the first impression on me is the first thing in the folder, that poorly written letter telling last cycle you had no other interviews and just the waitlist at our school. Now how do think that may already color my view of you? does it make me wonder why no other school of the dozen or two that you applied to even bothered to interview you?

I don't understand. Dont you already know that I wasn't accepted to any other school based on the fact that I am a reapplicant to your school? What new information does a LOI provide regarding this? (Assuming I don't mention that I didn't have any other interviews)...

 

[RNtoMD87]

I don't understand. Dont you already know that I wasn't accepted to any other school based on the fact that I am a reapplicant to your school? What new information does a LOI provide regarding this? (Assuming I don't mention that I didn't have any other interviews)...

I think he’s saying, there’s a major difference in being a reapplicant, and being a reapplicant rejected by a school that you sent a letter saying basically “you are my last choice”

Imagine a girl wanting to date you, and she says “no one else wants me”. Already a huge red flag, and I’m starting to look for why that is. And if she’s attractive (a seemingly quality applicant) I would look extra hard.

 

[premedalt]

I think he’s saying, there’s a major difference in being a reapplicant, and being a reapplicant rejected by a school that you sent aletter saying basically “you are my last choice”

Imagine a girl wanting to date you, and she says “no one else wants me”. Already a huge red flag, and I’m starting to look for why that is. And if she’s attractive (a seemingly quality applicant) I would look extra hard.

Do people sending LOIs really say that the school is their last choice? Doesn't it go more like:

You are my top choice for these reasons, I feel that I am a good fit for these additional reasons, and if accepted I fully intend on matriculating to your school?

Yeah, there's always the chance they'll be accepted somewhere better. And im not saying that a school accepts an applicant based purely on the LOI. but with schools having no way of knowing which applicants are more "available" and wanting to maximize yield, why wouldn't this letter help?

 

[puahate]

Then just dont say "you are my last choice". That is so corny anyways. Say "you are my top choice for xxx".

 

[premedalt]

Don’t be dramatic. That is nowhere near the definition of “unethical”. Setting a deadline is just logistical; the onus is on applicants to understand if/why submitting near a deadline is disadvantageous for them to do so.

How is it not unethical to take advantage of naive applicants by actively emailing them to send the school a 100 bucks 3 days before the schools January deadline with 0 intention of interviewing them...


"Oh tech support scams aren't unethical. People should know to be aware of them. It's their fault if they fall for it"

 

[puahate]

Imo i dont have more sympathy for institution with millions of dollars vs a premed in debt trying to become a doctor. That is how i view the ethical landscape here.

 

[LizzyM]

Let's say you area medical admissions officer. You have a LOIntent from Joe College who is waitlisted at your school. You have one seat left to fill. You phone Joe with the good news that he's being offered admission at So Great Medical School. You expect to hear a whoop of joy and instead Joe says, "I'm honored but I just got off the phone with Ye Olde Medical School and they offered me admission with a COA scholarship and I said yes so I'll have to turn you down."

What do you think of LOIntents? What do you think of Joe?

 

[puahate]

Flaw in WL strategy. Longer you wait the more chance other schools snag joe before you do with an even better offer.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

How is it not unethical to take advantage of naive applicants by actively emailing them to send the school a 100 bucks 3 days before the schools January deadline with 0 intention of interviewing them...


"Oh tech support scams aren't unethical. People should know to be aware of them. It's their fault if they fall for it"

Imo i dont have more sympathy for institution with millions of dollars vs a premed in debt trying to become a doctor. That is how i view the ethical landscape here.

Again, it's not so dramatically black and white. You can still feel bad for a naive, uninformed applicant who submits late, but also not think the schools are acting unethically if their deadline is still open. With your thinking, it's unethical for schools that send automatic secondaries to keep the secondary fees from applicants that clearly did not meet their stated academic or LOR requirements. Should they refund those fees once they see the missing requirements and it's clear the AdComs have no intention of interviewing them? So is sending an automatic secondary to everybody a scam? Or was the onus on the student to understand the requirements?

I never said scams aren't unethical. I just disagree that the late recruitment emails are scams.

 

[LizzyM]

Flaw in WL strategy. Longer you wait the more chance other schools snag joe before you do with an even better offer.

But Joe wrote saying that you were his top choice and, if admitted, he would attend. You took him at his word but now he's turned you down!

 

[premedalt]

Again, it's not so dramatically black and white. You can still feel bad for a naive, uninformed applicant who submits late, but also not think the schools are acting unethically if their deadline is still open. With your thinking, it's unethical for schools that send automatic secondaries to keep the secondary fees from applicants that clearly did not meet their stated academic or LOR requirements. Should they refund those fees once they see the missing requirements and it's clear the AdComs have no intention of interviewing them? So is sending an automatic secondary to everybody a scam? Or was the onus on the student to understand the requirements?

I never said scams aren't unethical. I just disagree that the late recruitment emails are scams.

I understand schools automatically sending out secondaries to everyone, I don't blame them for not wanting to sift through all the applications before doing so to see if there are any missing requirements. But I think that's different than actively encouraging applicants to send in a secondary so late in the cycle. I understand if you disagree with that.

 

[medimed2]

Every year I hear the same exact rumors: Less interviews, less acceptances, early rejections, etc. So far I see little change in this cycle other than a later interview cycle due more to the higher number of applications per school than anything else. Schools rarely send out a majority of acceptances until about March 1st. Schools are still making decisions in early April. And for many, the cycle will continue until summer as the waitlist cascade flows down. With nearly half of all matriculants receiving a single acceptance, many will not have an answer until months from now

So schools do send the majority of acceptances around March 1st? I have always this process is truly rolling admissions. Should those who are still under consideration post interview expect an answer around that time?