Extra-Curriculars versus Good Grades

[DMD-2-B]

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Hey guys,

I'm kind of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation and I was wondering if anyone has any advice.

I'm a non-trad student who recently made the decision to pursue dentistry. I made the decision after much thought, then quit my job and jumped into school two weeks later. Since then I have been doing nothing but loading up on classes in order to finish my pre-reqs by application time for Fall '07.

The thing is I haven't done much in terms of:

- research (none),
- shadowing (none),
- volunteer work (some with groups for children who stutter)

I'm taking organic I and bio I now, which are both killer classes, and I'm taking part II of both in the spring.

I wanna do research/volunteer/shadow, but am worried that time away from my classes will bring my grades down, and I wanna keep them up so I can get accepted into dental school.

BUT I'm also worried that if I DON"T do research/volunteer/shadow I won't get accepted into dental school.

What on earth should I do??? What's more desirable:

a - great grades with almost no extra-curriculars

OR

b - decent grades with extra-curriculars

What would you do?

 

[SuperC]

I don't know what your classes are like (eg how many you are taking and difficulty) or if you work, ect, ect. So I will tell you my brief story. Here I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you what not to do.

As far as the course load goes... Unless you are a super smart person and A's come naturally, I would ease into heavy course loads. You really do "learn" how to handle it. When I decided to go to dental school and get serious about classes, I started REALLY heavy, and had to withdraw from some classes (Calc 2 and phys w/ calc) it was a real ego buster. So I from that semester on I tried to separate classes (eg easy and hard) each semester adding more classes and more difficulty. This is my second 18 hour semester with not one easy class. I just "learned" how to deal with it. (PS last 18 - 3.5 for the semester)

So now you are saying, "that's not what I asked” well the rest of the story is this: If you ease in to the heavy loads it may give you some time to focus on your EC's. Don't let some of the people on this forum fool you. Yes, many have INSANE grades, but No EC's. EC's are critical. If you read some D-School admission web pages you will see a lot of "We look for students who have a genuine interest in dentistry” or something to that effect. The fact that you got straight A's and 24 on the DAT does not show anything about your interest in dentistry. Furthermore, it will give you insight into the world of dentistry. What your likes and dislikes are, hell, even if you like the work.

Example: My dad is a GP, mom is a hygienist as well as my step mom. I grew up in dentistry. I had to walk to his office for work in MIDDLE SCHOOL! (I'm 24 now). I shadowed an Oral surgeon for a while and it was so cool and I loved it so much it gave me chills, I know I'm nuts.

One other thing, the cool thing about all of your EC's it that you will meet tons of people interested in the same thing you are, Dentistry! These people are dying under the same stress you are... Fighting for good grades. So you meet study-buddies, lovely dental ladies 😀, and learn about dentistry. So the trade off is pretty nice.

Finally, When getting involved in SG, ASDA, ect. Make it a leadership position not just a member. It will help show your enthusiasm and your leadership ability. Second, many schools offer research for credit. I started volunteering in an oral bio lab and now I have earned 6 credits of upper division science credit that count towards my major.

I hope this helps

-C
Fmr. President, Student Government, FCCJ (not being pretentious, just making a point)

Overall: 3.0
BCP: 3.4
DAT: 19/20/19

 

[Beestieboy]

Well you are going to need good grades, that's a simple fact. Grades are what is going to get you past the first cut. I swear, during my interviews I got the feeling that the people interviewing me hadn't read my personal statement, my letters of reccomendation, etc. They knew my numbers though. During the interviews, they're going to ask you why you want to be a dentist and what exposure you have to the field so I think you need to do some shadowing without a doubt, but don't sacrifice the grades. Fit in an hour here and an hour there of shadowing as you can. Without the grades, you'll have a hard time landing the interview where you can talk about yourself more. That's just my opinion. I'd call a school that you're interested in and talk to an admissions councilor.

My personal opinion is go for the grades first, get some shadowing done second, service third, and research last. Research takes a long time and the payoff isn't as much as the ones above when you're crunched for time.

 

[Sephisabin]

I don't know what your drop-off is between great grades and decent grades, but you're definitely going to want EC's... especially shadowing hours in dentistry. Some schools require that you have at least 50 hours of shadowing experience before you apply. Additionally, AADSAS and every secondary I've seen talks about your EC's and why you did them--you really need to have something to write about! The dental schools want to know that you've shadowed a dentist and are really interested in it, so shadowing is a must!

Just take a look around the forum... who are the people with the interviews? I see 4.0 students still waiting and low to mid 3.XX students already have multiple interviews... That's obviously because of EC's, and not because the dental schools are looking for lower GPA's 😉 Plus... what are you going to talk about at an interview? How hard you studied, or what experiences you have, what you gained from them, and how they will make you a better dentist?

I suggest that you find a dentist that you can shadow for a couple hours per week. You can even just shadow a dentist full time for a couple weeks during your school's winter break. I know you have to work to get amazing grades, but there's no way you couldn't find a couple hours a week to spare!

I'm going to close with: An amazing GPA would rock, but it won't make up for not being a well-rounded person.

 

[Audio]

All this is bull. GPA and DAT are by far the most important in the process. It's true that some people who have 4.0s don't get in at a certain school...big deal, they get into at least half, if not more, of their choices. And plus, do you really think these old timer dentists who were smoking weed in the 60s did any dental shadowing? I highly doubt it so they understand.

BUT...I agree that you need strong ECs...whether you have 10 hours or 500 hours of dental shadowing isn't the issue, it's whether you have 10 hours or 500 hours of something important. This includes dental shadowing but, who's to say that shadowing a dentist for the 499th hour is more valuable an experience than going to Africa and building a school or being a varsity football player. Schools want to know that you did something during your university career..not that you just sat in the library and studied.

 

[DMD-2-B]

Thanks so much for all your input! Let me respond to some of your comments and tell you a little more about myself.

SuperC (and everyone else) - Ideally, your advice would be the way to go! But my situation's a little more time-crammed and doesn't allow for it. I already have my degree in Mechanical Engineering (i.e. physics and calc pre-reqs SO done!!).

Currently I'm taking Organic I and Bio I. In the Spring I will be taking Organic II and Bio II, and they're taking up all my time bc my goal is to get A's.

Everyone else (and SuperC) -

Here's my experience as far as research and volunteer work go:

1 - I worked as a research assistant for an environmental lab affiliated with NASA during the summer of 1999 and winter of 2001 (long time ago!).

2 - I volunteered in the children's psych ward at Stony Brook Hospital for 5 months in the Spring of 1999

3 - I've been doing a lot of volunteer work with children who stutter over the last year, which is something I'm very passionate about.

4 - I should be able to squeeze in shadowing hours with a couple local dentists before app time.

So is this enough or should I fit in more, even if its at the expense of my As turning to maybe Bs ????

Oh yes, and also - WINTER BREAK 2005 though will be an interesting time being that I will have 1 month with no obligations, and I wanna make best use of it. So I wanted to get some feedback from you guys...

What can I do during this month as far as dental extra-curriculars are concerned?

 

[Sephisabin]

DMD-2-B: You definitely have good EC's... I was under the impression that you had none, and that it was a trade-off between 4.0 and NOTHING and 3.XX and SOMETHING. It sounds like you've got it figured out... get your A's, and get some shadowing time. I'm not sure what to do for that 1 month in winter, but you've got some time to figure that out--maybe even put off shadowing until then if it'll mean better grades.

Audio: I'm not saying that you should aim for B's and C's. Grades and DATs matter... no one is arguing otherwise. However, dental shadowing is a lot more important than you make it out to be. I just did my UMinn secondary and I had to write an essay on my orientation to dentistry. "I visit the dentist biannually" is certainly not the answer they're looking for there--shadowing is important (UMinn says 50 hours minimum). Maybe the dentists in the 60's didn't shadow, but the fact of the matter is that most people do right now and the dental schools expect it of you. While we're at it, I'm sure the dentists in the 60's didn't have 4.0s and 20+ DATs... They were probably pulling 2.5s and 15 DATs and somking weed as an EC... the times they are-a-changin' my friend... let's keep with the times and compare ourselves to our fellow applicants and not those of three and four decades ago.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I didn't read all of the responses, so I don't know what was said, but I'll give you my thoughts: great grades (and I mean really great) with no ECs is better than average grades with ECs.

 

[Audio]

I didn't read all of the responses, so I don't know what was said, but I'll give you my thoughts: great grades (and I mean really great) with no ECs is better than average grades with ECs.

Agreed. For every time a student with a 4.0 and 25DAT scores gets a rejection, he/she will get 3 acceptances.

Anyways, I'm just giving my honest opinion. I have solid stats and have some amazing experiences to talk about, including dental shadowing so I'm not some bitter dude with no ECs who's talking ****. I'm just saying that if you want to get in, you better have the stats. ECs come second.

 

[SuperC]

I agree with everyone in the great grade department... IT IS A FACT.
But not everyone can get All A's and a 24 on the DAT. So unless you are positive that you are capable of A's and 24's, why put all your eggs in one basket?

99.99% of admissions officers are going to tell you they look for "well rounded applicants." So... F**K what I say... and F**K what everyone else says and listen to the people who make the admissions decisions.

Here is a copy paste from U. Louisville (http://www.dental.louisville.edu/future_students/dmd_criteria.htm)
_________________________________________________________________
The Admissions Committee is charged by the School's faculty with selecting the best qualified and most responsible applicants. The Committee uses an Admissions Index to identify and select qualified applicants. Selection criteria are divided into two components. ACADEMIC factors comprise 60% and include

* Overall G.P.A.
* biology/chemistry/physics G.P.A.
* DAT scores

The remaining 40% are NON-ACADEMIC factors, including the letters of recommendation and the required on-site interview. They include an evaluation of personal qualities such as (but not limited to):

* perceived motivation to pursue a career in dentistry
* maturity
* communication skills
* strength of pre-dental curriculum
* employment
* extra-curricular activities
_________________________________________________________________
40% are NON-ACADEMIC factors?!?!? That is pretty darn close to HALF. So take it for what it is worth.

An interesting story (It may mean everything/It may mean nothing): you all have seen my stats, (see above They aren't wonderful)... last fall. I applied via AADSAS and started to study for the DAT. I was taking 18hrs and tried to make it all fit but I could not do it... so I DID NOT take the DAT that semester. Needless to say, most schools - including UF - do not consider your application w/o a DAT score, so I did not get in anywhere. My EC's are VERY strong. UFCD personally called me twice and sent me two letters asking when I was going to take the DAT. On top of that they extended my application deadline to MARCH 30th! Yea, that is THREE months. So what is the point of my story? In my eyes, they really wanted me to be a student at UF and it is certainly not attributed to my straight A's and 25.

Lastly, I don't want all you A's / 25 to get all antsy in your pantsy. YES, for the love of God they are really important... In Louisville's case 10% more important. So yes good grades will get you in, but so will GREAT EC's and okay grades.

Bottom line.... When the A's / 25 people are in practice, and people like me are in practice.... Not one patient will say, so Dr. What was your GPA/DAT when you were an undergraduate?

 

[DMD-2-B]

You've each contributed solid though-provoking input. And after reading your responses, I've formulated a "plan".

I'd love to hear what you guys think about it. Here goes...

1 - So from now until app time I will make it my goal to do 50+ hours of shadowing at various dentists offices and hospitals. I just called LIJ this morning, and they're sending me an app (so that's 4-5 hours already in the making!).

2 - I will continue doing my volunteer work with children who stutter, and have two such-related events scheduled for October and November at NYU.

3 - Furthermore, over winter break I will look into doing volunteer abroad or out of state. Maybe a couple of weeks of Habitat for Humanity, or helping Katrina victims.

4 - Then once I finish school, I will look for a part time job in a dental lab or medical research facility to hold me over financially while studying for DATs, AND demonstrate my dedication to dentistry/science (killing two birds with one stone is always a plus!).

So.. does this sound like a good resolution to my delimma? Any thoughts/suggestions? Anything more I can do???

 

[Sephisabin]

👍 That sounds good to me! Just make sure you leave youself enough time to study for the DAT while working. It's easy to get tired/lazy after a long day of work, so make sure you're able to give it it's due diligence (I know some people who learned that the hard way... don't be one of them!). Good luck man.

Audio: I'm sorry if my last post sounded rude, it wasn't my intention =Þ

 

[DMD-2-B]

👍 That sounds good to me! Just make sure you leave youself enough time to study for the DAT while working. It's easy to get tired/lazy after a long day of work, so make sure you're able to give it it's due diligence (I know some people who learned that the hard way... don't be one of them!). Good luck man.

Audio: I'm sorry if my last post sounded rude, it wasn't my intention =Þ

Thanks! I agree about focusing on DATs, so that's why I'm gonna work part-time till the DATs are over. After that - who knows what I'll do with all my free time. It would definately be cool to travel overseas for a good cause though...

btw - I'm a woman, man. 😛

 

[Sephisabin]

btw - I'm a woman, man. 😛

Oh, that was just a general "man," as in mankind as opposed to... not makind? Haha... yeah, I'm not going to talk my way out of this one.. Sorry about that! 😳 <-- that's the most sincere-looking smiley face that I can choose from...

Good luck woman! 😀

 

[DMD-2-B]

Oh, that was just a general "man," as in mankind as opposed to... not makind? Haha... yeah, I'm not going to talk my way out of this one.. Sorry about that! 😳 <-- that's the most sincere-looking smiley face that I can choose from...

Good luck woman! 😀

Well, after you put so much thought into picking just the right smiley face, how can I not forgive you?! 😉

 

[HuyetKiem]

btw - I'm a woman 😛

Hmmmm your chance will increase by 25-40% during the application process 😀 😀 😀

 

[DMD-2-B]

Hmmmm your chance will increase by 25-40% during the application process 😀 😀 😀

Really???

I thought there was about a 50 to 50 gender ratio of applicants, and that as a result there would be no "advantage" for women applicants.

Is this incorrect?

 

[shabu2]

Really???

I thought there was about a 50 to 50 gender ratio of applicants, and that as a result there would be no "advantage" for women applicants.

Is this incorrect?

That was a joke I think....At Columbia there have been very few women in the last two weeks of interviewees. Kinda funny though, i think my class is 55% women....or it seems like it at times 🙂

 

[DMD-2-B]

That was a joke I think....At Columbia there have been very few women in the last two weeks of interviewees. QUOTE]


How do you know that there have been few women interveiwees at Columbia?

 

[Sephisabin]

😉

How do you know that there have been few women interveiwees at Columbia?

Some people were talking about it in the "Has anyone heard from Columbia?" thread. Here's the main chunk of it:

"ok so the first batch was like 9 guys and 1 grl. then last week it was like once again like 8-9 guys and 2 girls, but someone said there was one more tht i didnt see i guess. i dont think the school discriminates against a particular sex but i wish they did and i am sure you know which one i am talking about, haha"

Haha... a guy wrote that, so obviously he hopes it's true. Heck, I hope it's true... at least for this year. They can switch around for you next year 😉 That would rock!! haha

 

[shabu2]

That was a joke I think....At Columbia there have been very few women in the last two weeks of interviewees. QUOTE]


How do you know that there have been few women interveiwees at Columbia?

I go to Columbia. I see them every Friday.

 

[DMD-2-B]

I go to Columbia. I see them every Friday.

That also could mean that there are less women applicants. And if there's about a 50-50 ratio enrolled, that means a higher enrollment percentage for women than men.

i.e. 100 men applied, 50 enroll = 50% chance of enrollment
60 women apply, 50 enroll = 83% chance of enrollment

I made those #s up to illustrate the idea. I wonder if this is the way it works though...?

 

[shabu2]

That also could mean that there are less women applicants. And if there's about a 50-50 ratio enrolled, that means a higher enrollment percentage for women than men.

i.e. 100 men applied, 50 enroll = 50% chance of enrollment
60 women apply, 50 enroll = 83% chance of enrollment

I made those #s up to illustrate the idea. I wonder if this is the way it works though...?

They actually don't set a limit for men/women. But once you get an interview you have a 50/50 chance. Out of 10 that were in my interview group, 5 (including me) are classmates.

 

[DMD-2-B]

They actually don't set a limit for men/women. But once you get an interview you have a 50/50 chance. Out of 10 that were in my interview group, 5 (including me) are classmates.

That's interesting... so then the follow up question would be:

What percentage of interviewees are women?

btw - congradulations on your acceptance! 👍

 

[oldboy]

btw - congradulations on your acceptance! 👍

a bit belated don't you think?

 

[Sephisabin]

a bit belated don't you think?

She just learned of Shabu's acceptance and is being polite... cut the lady some slack!

Congrats on Columbia Shabu2, even if it is belated 😉

 

[DMD-2-B]

a bit belated don't you think?

Is it? I was under the impression his acceptance was recent. But recent or not, I'll still say congrats, Shabu2 and good luck!

 

[DMD-2-B]

according to Shabu2's signature he/she is a D3. recent acceptance????

Wow.. you're right. My bad. I've been posting while running around at school. We have standing computers (i.e. no chairs) so I tend not to get too "comfortable".

But whatever, what harm can a belated congradulations do?

 

[shabu2]

Wow.. you're right. My bad. I've been posting while running around at school. We have standing computers (i.e. no chairs) so I tend not to get too "comfortable".

But whatever, what harm can a belated congradulations do?

Actually, it might be better congratulate me when I graduate next year....if I make it.... 😉