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Dr. DP, i just love it when you post. Rock on.
Extreme Boredom in Dental School
- Thread starter TylerDMD
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Dr. DP, i just love it when you post. Rock on.
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I'm not in Dental school yet, but I think it's a good idea to learn a little bit about "everything" just for your own personal benefit. When doing your undergrad, have you ever surprised yourself by actually enjoying a class or topic that you didn't expect to like? (It turned out to be English 100 for me, who knew?!) The same could be true for Dental school. Theoretically, you could stumble upon a topic that you find interesting and would like to pursue further - maybe even deciding to do a career in research rather than or in addition to a general practice. Learning more than you "have" to know to get by is not usually a bad idea. And if you hate it, at least then you can rule out pursuing that area as a potential field of interest.
Besides, you can't get a good understanding of the oral cavity and how it functions if you don't know a thing or two about the general body (ie. blood circulation, metabolism, etc.) By now, everyone is well aware that nothing in the body is an isolated system - impacts on one system will affect another. And as boring and tedious as histology can be at times, it's essential for a proper understanding of how cells and tissues interact and perform their specific duties.
I'm not saying I enjoy learning all the "useless" information, but at least I can say with 100% certainty that I'm not interested in pursuing it any further!
Mare
Besides, you can't get a good understanding of the oral cavity and how it functions if you don't know a thing or two about the general body (ie. blood circulation, metabolism, etc.) By now, everyone is well aware that nothing in the body is an isolated system - impacts on one system will affect another. And as boring and tedious as histology can be at times, it's essential for a proper understanding of how cells and tissues interact and perform their specific duties.
I'm not saying I enjoy learning all the "useless" information, but at least I can say with 100% certainty that I'm not interested in pursuing it any further!
Mare
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My gripe would be is that you could be studying dental anatomy or perio (important) instead of waisting hours and hours of your time with biochem. With the load in dental school as heavy as it is, you learn biochem at the expense of classes that more directly apply to dentistry.
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Would you take you car to a mechanic who was really good at replacing spark plugs, but wasn't sure how a car engine worked?
During the first year of d-school, when I was knee deep in the hard sciences, it was hard to see how a large portion of the curriculum was relevant. But, I now see how a lot of these courses are complementing each other.
Remove all the background science, and we aren't any better than a barber who cuts hair without knowing anything about the scalp and hair. We are no longer experts or specialists, we are technicians. Without an understanding of the etiology and pathology of diseases, we'll be unable to diagnose and treatment plan.
During the first year of d-school, when I was knee deep in the hard sciences, it was hard to see how a large portion of the curriculum was relevant. But, I now see how a lot of these courses are complementing each other.
Remove all the background science, and we aren't any better than a barber who cuts hair without knowing anything about the scalp and hair. We are no longer experts or specialists, we are technicians. Without an understanding of the etiology and pathology of diseases, we'll be unable to diagnose and treatment plan.
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Before you write off all of the preclinical and basic science courses as boring and meaningless, and before anyone tries to defend these courses as useful in the long run, I suggest you step back and consider the following:
The course curriculum is set forth as a standard and no amount of complaining on this or any other web site is going to change it. All dental schools must provide a similar education as set forth by the minimum standards, and for the most part they do.
On the other hand, my perspective is that by not putting forth your best effort in these courses from the beginning, you jeopardize your future career plans. Undoubtedly some of you will wish to pursue postgraduate specialty training. I suggest that you start thinking about this in your freshman year. You do not necessarily have to chose a specialty you like,(how would you know at this point?) but leave your options open. Without good grades and good board scores, you will seriously limit your options when it comes time to apply for a residency or dental school based specialty training. Why limit yourself?
You are correct in saying that the Krebs cycle is not really a relevant fact in the clinical practice of dentistry. Instead, I would simply consider it a hurdle that we have all had to cross. Instead of complaining about these things, I would focus on mastering these subjects as a means to an end. Even though the information may seem useless, the grades for these couses count heavily and will follow you into senior year, when you might wish you had spent more time studying and less time being bored.
The course curriculum is set forth as a standard and no amount of complaining on this or any other web site is going to change it. All dental schools must provide a similar education as set forth by the minimum standards, and for the most part they do.
On the other hand, my perspective is that by not putting forth your best effort in these courses from the beginning, you jeopardize your future career plans. Undoubtedly some of you will wish to pursue postgraduate specialty training. I suggest that you start thinking about this in your freshman year. You do not necessarily have to chose a specialty you like,(how would you know at this point?) but leave your options open. Without good grades and good board scores, you will seriously limit your options when it comes time to apply for a residency or dental school based specialty training. Why limit yourself?
You are correct in saying that the Krebs cycle is not really a relevant fact in the clinical practice of dentistry. Instead, I would simply consider it a hurdle that we have all had to cross. Instead of complaining about these things, I would focus on mastering these subjects as a means to an end. Even though the information may seem useless, the grades for these couses count heavily and will follow you into senior year, when you might wish you had spent more time studying and less time being bored.
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I must admit that I can sympathize a lot with Tyler. I came to dental school with noble ideas of being a care giver concerned with every aspect of every one of my patient's health. I still believe that it is a great idea.
But. . .I just don't think that dental school gives students enough time for this lofty goal (at least not the school I am attending). My overall feeling after completing a year and a half of the curriculum is that everything is incredibly unorganized. We cover so much information over a short period of time there is barely any digestion of the material by most of the students. Sure some grasp everything very quickly and know all of the material, but most simply fill up their short term memory only to empty it in a multiple choice format. Personally, I feel like I learned more in my undergrad science courses than I am learning now. I think that dental school should be organized much more like medical school. I am not sure of the exact medical curriculum, but I do know that there is much more time devoted to the didactic sciences.
For the argument that we are "physicians" of the head and neck that are specialized in our field to hold any weight, I think that we would need to be trained as physicians first (which I dont think that I am being trained as). My curriculum simply seems a half-arsed attempt to train us as physicians.
As an example: most students where I am don't even purchase textbooks. I understand why; there simply is not time to read them. However, I do not think that powerpoint slides are sufficient study material for a physician of the head and neck. I could not imagine a med student not buying text books. As a student, I just feel that I am not receiving the best teaching/training.
In my perspective, there is a push in dentistry away from the craftsman/artisan background and more towards the physician who is able to diagnose a range of pathologies. I almost feel as if this is in reaction to all of the glamorous headlines that dentistry has been receiving with make-overs etc. It appears as an effort to give some sort of medical credibility to our profession. Nonetheless, I do think that it is the right idea that dentists be trained as physicians. However, I don't think that the current curriculum is adequately addresses this need.
I am really curious to see how the field of dentistry will play out in the future. There seems to be a heavy push in the media for the cosmetic benefits of dentistry. I am also sure that we will probably be seeing a correlation with an increase in the number of cases of dental malpractice tried in court (go figure). Today it also seems that the field of medicine is absolutely enormous. We know soooo much more today than we did even just ten years ago. I just don't know how dentistry is going to keep up. I think that there needs to be a much heavier emphasis on the sciences (at least at the school that I attend) in order for dentistry to keep up.
Does anyone else feel the same?
Besides the negative affects on career lifestyle and the whole insurance nightmare, can anyone justify the separation of dentistry from medicine in academic training or are we just memorizing the KREBS cycle for the heck of it?
But. . .I just don't think that dental school gives students enough time for this lofty goal (at least not the school I am attending). My overall feeling after completing a year and a half of the curriculum is that everything is incredibly unorganized. We cover so much information over a short period of time there is barely any digestion of the material by most of the students. Sure some grasp everything very quickly and know all of the material, but most simply fill up their short term memory only to empty it in a multiple choice format. Personally, I feel like I learned more in my undergrad science courses than I am learning now. I think that dental school should be organized much more like medical school. I am not sure of the exact medical curriculum, but I do know that there is much more time devoted to the didactic sciences.
For the argument that we are "physicians" of the head and neck that are specialized in our field to hold any weight, I think that we would need to be trained as physicians first (which I dont think that I am being trained as). My curriculum simply seems a half-arsed attempt to train us as physicians.
As an example: most students where I am don't even purchase textbooks. I understand why; there simply is not time to read them. However, I do not think that powerpoint slides are sufficient study material for a physician of the head and neck. I could not imagine a med student not buying text books. As a student, I just feel that I am not receiving the best teaching/training.
In my perspective, there is a push in dentistry away from the craftsman/artisan background and more towards the physician who is able to diagnose a range of pathologies. I almost feel as if this is in reaction to all of the glamorous headlines that dentistry has been receiving with make-overs etc. It appears as an effort to give some sort of medical credibility to our profession. Nonetheless, I do think that it is the right idea that dentists be trained as physicians. However, I don't think that the current curriculum is adequately addresses this need.
I am really curious to see how the field of dentistry will play out in the future. There seems to be a heavy push in the media for the cosmetic benefits of dentistry. I am also sure that we will probably be seeing a correlation with an increase in the number of cases of dental malpractice tried in court (go figure). Today it also seems that the field of medicine is absolutely enormous. We know soooo much more today than we did even just ten years ago. I just don't know how dentistry is going to keep up. I think that there needs to be a much heavier emphasis on the sciences (at least at the school that I attend) in order for dentistry to keep up.
Does anyone else feel the same?
Besides the negative affects on career lifestyle and the whole insurance nightmare, can anyone justify the separation of dentistry from medicine in academic training or are we just memorizing the KREBS cycle for the heck of it?
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rambeleon - I think you hold the MD students to too high of a standard. I would be willing to bet that they don't "read" the textbooks either. Too much info in too little time for them and for us. That is why they have residencies and nurses to watch over them their first couple years out so they don't kill anyone.
To everyone else that doesn't see the relevance of knowing the medical background, I hope with all the hope I have that you never prescribe anything to anyone for your own sakes. You will screw up and when you do, it will make you look a lot better if you understood why you screwed up instead of "the pharm rep/commercials told me it would work." All I have to say, is good luck.
To everyone else that doesn't see the relevance of knowing the medical background, I hope with all the hope I have that you never prescribe anything to anyone for your own sakes. You will screw up and when you do, it will make you look a lot better if you understood why you screwed up instead of "the pharm rep/commercials told me it would work." All I have to say, is good luck.
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I just dont understand how any of u have trouble realizing that a dentist is a doctor. When u get a patient who have lupus or Sjogrens syndome, how the hell are u going to adjust your tx planning? What about when u get a granny (b/c not all you pts are healthy youth) and she gives u a list of 15 meds shes on. How are u going to know what to do differently? If you are a healthy pt yourself, dont take it for granted that you are the average pt. Ppl got ****loads of problems. You can F-up someone pretty bad if you dont try to apply some of those basic sciences. for example, even if u have the "clinical" skills to detect and dx a herpes lesion, if you dont understand or care to undertand or care to recall its virulence and transmission, whats going to stop u from spreading that virus allover the pt and creating an ugly situation? The pt would be better off never knowing you existed?
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Your first post just bumped a year old thread. GJ 
BTW I haven't read all the posts but I seem to have the opposite problem as the OP. I find the non dental courses interesting and I want to focus my studying on them and not my dental courses. I have 1 pure dental course (morph) and another one called healthcare systems which is sorta a bs course. Doing waxups once a week is a nice break from anatomy and biochem but the lectures in that class tend to be boring. Don't get me wrong, I want to learn about teeth. But if I'm also taking big classes like anatomy, I would rather be able to concentrate fully on those.
BTW I haven't read all the posts but I seem to have the opposite problem as the OP. I find the non dental courses interesting and I want to focus my studying on them and not my dental courses. I have 1 pure dental course (morph) and another one called healthcare systems which is sorta a bs course. Doing waxups once a week is a nice break from anatomy and biochem but the lectures in that class tend to be boring. Don't get me wrong, I want to learn about teeth. But if I'm also taking big classes like anatomy, I would rather be able to concentrate fully on those.
Hi,
I have taught in medical schools, and still give seminars to medical residents... IT IS BASED ON MORE THAN 4 YEARS.
After medical school, residency is a must. After Part I and II of the national boards PART III, in the residency is a must. Most hospitals require staff to be speciality board certified.
Med school does not make sure you do some many diabetics or CHF pts etc.. the assume you will see it in a residency...
Dental school MUST meet standards, assume no education after 4 years... though all suggested a manditory 5th year.
Dentistry it expanding what needs to be know... cosmetics yes... new materials, devices, toys yes.... also more medically comprised... cause/effect of oral/systemic... requirements on special needs patients, requirements on abuse recongnition... etc
but each area of dentistry teaches with they own "favor""Opinion" so overall there is overlap which seems confusing.
Agreeing with you... several states have gone to a manditory residency year.
Delaware in 1940.... NY 2005... others last year.
When in dental school I wondered why anatomy of body... but when I took my oral path in grad school.... many hours in autopsy... basic science does fit in...
If I can answer anything more... let me know
J
jackbauer!
Your first post just bumped a year old thread. GJ
BTW I haven't read all the posts but I seem to have the opposite problem as the OP. I find the non dental courses interesting and I want to focus my studying on them and not my dental courses. I have 1 pure dental course (morph) and another one called healthcare systems which is sorta a bs course. Doing waxups once a week is a nice break from anatomy and biochem but the lectures in that class tend to be boring. Don't get me wrong, I want to learn about teeth. But if I'm also taking big classes like anatomy, I would rather be able to concentrate fully on those.
i agree
the science courses are more interesting to me b/c they are generally more conceptual and "it all makes sense." my dental classes, like dental anatomy, i find boring b/c it's pure memorization... heights of contour, cusp tips, marginal ridges, contacts, proximals... you get the point.jb!
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I appreciate the comments from the experienced ones here... if what they encountered in actual clinic, not simlabs, are making them to appreciate the fact they did spend the late night studying knowledge seemed aloof to dental practice, then I think their comment would carry much more weight than "1/3 of dental school education worths crap". I think we all know that there is no perfect curriculum exists anywhere for any major or profession, whether it's dentistry, medicine, engineering (my previous life), finance... period! Or else why are they constantly being changed! I remember our class collectively bashing on the curriculum our school put out for chemical engineers... but the fact of life is, no system is perfect for everyone's interest nor would be enough to prepare anyone from anything. But it's obvious that those who try to make the most of it tends to be more successful overtime, whether they love it or not.
You can choose how to make these boring classes pass by... but I know what I want to do. If it's gonna cost me that much of time and money, I'll make sure I get something out of it.
You can choose how to make these boring classes pass by... but I know what I want to do. If it's gonna cost me that much of time and money, I'll make sure I get something out of it.
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who are you people? a bunch of first years?
okay obviously you can just skip class but to counter this genius the faculty came up with the reinstitution of the attendance sheet
i have found myspace/facebook a nice distraction or you can just log on AIM and message your friends across the classroom mocking whatever your professor says...
you need to appreciate the classtime you actually have to slack off because
i'm sure most of you just spend every class ignoring lecture and studying the packets for whichever exam/quiz/competency you all have next anyway...with the amount of material in dental school this "next exam packet studying" should take up most of your time....
i feel like the "smartest" (read as "best grades") people in our generation of students (post technology implimentation) learn by reading handouts and memorizing quickly...
this seems to irriate instructors who went to school before computers/ppt and who studied in a time when the smartest people were those who could learn the most by listening and taking notes....theres no need for note taking with powerpoint...
of course they could always just lecture and not use powerpoint and detailed notes but in such a situation MUCH LESS material gets presented because they can't "skip slides" and people need time to write things down...
less material is the opposite of dental school so it doesn't usually work this way....
okay obviously you can just skip class but to counter this genius the faculty came up with the reinstitution of the attendance sheet
i have found myspace/facebook a nice distraction or you can just log on AIM and message your friends across the classroom mocking whatever your professor says...
you need to appreciate the classtime you actually have to slack off because
i'm sure most of you just spend every class ignoring lecture and studying the packets for whichever exam/quiz/competency you all have next anyway...with the amount of material in dental school this "next exam packet studying" should take up most of your time....
i feel like the "smartest" (read as "best grades") people in our generation of students (post technology implimentation) learn by reading handouts and memorizing quickly...
this seems to irriate instructors who went to school before computers/ppt and who studied in a time when the smartest people were those who could learn the most by listening and taking notes....theres no need for note taking with powerpoint...
of course they could always just lecture and not use powerpoint and detailed notes but in such a situation MUCH LESS material gets presented because they can't "skip slides" and people need time to write things down...
less material is the opposite of dental school so it doesn't usually work this way....
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Does anyone else here hate powerpoints? Agreeing with you 2thdr13, today seems more geared towards memorizing fast. Powerpoint is good for presenting text/list type of information. However, it fails miserably to present conceptual and visual type of information unless the professor has access to some full page slides that someone else has already made. I can't tell you how many times that I have tried to zoom in on biochem or micro slides that contain visual schematics of complex mechanisms only to be dumbfounded. I actually expressed my frustrations to a few faculty and I was countered with the argument that the lecture material was supposed to complement our texts. To be perfectly honest, reading of texts to most dental students was a hobby of undergrad. There simply is not time to read the text anymore. I personally felt like I understood/grasped and learned more when I read the texts. However, the game has changed. Now I simply must memorize (read not comprehend) a bunch of letters and acronyms that I regurgitate for the test only to forget the information soon thereafter.
What are your thoughts on powerpoint?
What are your thoughts on powerpoint?
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hey, i know this thread is kind of old, but i came across it doing a search for something else...here goes...
yes, i'm only predent right now so my opinion might only hold as such, but anyway...after doing a bit of "research" talking with some friends of mine in med school, dental school, my personal dentist, and other physicians i have shaddowed over the years, i have come to my own conclusions about this whole archaic didactic curriculum that some dental students are claiming to be "boring".
just like undergraduate, i feel that some of the courses you are required to take are a rite of passage, or even a "weed course" (yea, the admissions people are suposed to have done that already, but there is always at least one to queak by) for the given profession as well as meant to be the "foundation" for what is to come.
as much as the core sciences "don't matter" in dentistry, i still feel that they are a necessity in order to fully grasp the "medicine" associated with dentistry. i think dental students need to understand that they are trying to become not only an artisan of the mouth, but as someone else stated a "physician of the head and neck". dentist must do this in 4 years (UoP = 3yrs) and must be competent upon completion of their program. however, MD's must undergo a few more "science" classes because they are to become "physicians of the whole body". this is why i feel that MD's MUST undergo a residentcy in order to fully encompase thier title as Medical Doctor of whatever specialty they chose. Even internal medicine and primary care requires at least 3-5 additional years of training, and as with primary care dentistry, it does not (some 5th yr programs ARE required in some states).
now for my last point on why i think that the boring core classes are needed...with everything else i have mentioned aside, if the Latin defintion of "doctor" meaning teacher (or as someone else put, "master teacher") then i would think that one must know a great deal on the subject that that person claims to be a "doctor" of. The word Physician comes from an ancient Greek noun φυσις (physis) and its derived adjective physikos, meaning "nature" and "natural". So that would make a MD (master teacher of medicine) required to learn more on the basis of natural sciences (hence why i think that physics is required for med schools - and yes i know they use it more than dentisry) and also physician originally meant a practitioner of physic.
Now with dentistry having a degree title of DDS (doctor of dental surgery) or DMD (Dentariae Medicinae Doctorae = doctor of dental medicine) means that dentist must have the underlying knowledge of all subjects assicated with and pertaining those definitions in order to obtain that degree. This means that a dentist must not only be a master of the artistic qualities associated with dentistry, but also the didactic material associated with the field as well, and must do it in only 4 years! if there were going to be changes in the curriculum, hell, i think dental school should be 5-6 years as oposed to only 4 if it is expected, and assumed, that they are to be FULLY qualified to carry the title "doctor". i mean, you're history professor had to take a **** load of history classes to earn that title, even if they only wanted to study the civil war for the rest of their life.
overall, i feel that the didactic course work in med school or dental school is liberal-artistic in nature and is thus just fine the way it is. sorry, that's how i feel and i can't wait to be bored out of my mind.
yes, i'm only predent right now so my opinion might only hold as such, but anyway...after doing a bit of "research" talking with some friends of mine in med school, dental school, my personal dentist, and other physicians i have shaddowed over the years, i have come to my own conclusions about this whole archaic didactic curriculum that some dental students are claiming to be "boring".
just like undergraduate, i feel that some of the courses you are required to take are a rite of passage, or even a "weed course" (yea, the admissions people are suposed to have done that already, but there is always at least one to queak by) for the given profession as well as meant to be the "foundation" for what is to come.
as much as the core sciences "don't matter" in dentistry, i still feel that they are a necessity in order to fully grasp the "medicine" associated with dentistry. i think dental students need to understand that they are trying to become not only an artisan of the mouth, but as someone else stated a "physician of the head and neck". dentist must do this in 4 years (UoP = 3yrs) and must be competent upon completion of their program. however, MD's must undergo a few more "science" classes because they are to become "physicians of the whole body". this is why i feel that MD's MUST undergo a residentcy in order to fully encompase thier title as Medical Doctor of whatever specialty they chose. Even internal medicine and primary care requires at least 3-5 additional years of training, and as with primary care dentistry, it does not (some 5th yr programs ARE required in some states).
now for my last point on why i think that the boring core classes are needed...with everything else i have mentioned aside, if the Latin defintion of "doctor" meaning teacher (or as someone else put, "master teacher") then i would think that one must know a great deal on the subject that that person claims to be a "doctor" of. The word Physician comes from an ancient Greek noun φυσις (physis) and its derived adjective physikos, meaning "nature" and "natural". So that would make a MD (master teacher of medicine) required to learn more on the basis of natural sciences (hence why i think that physics is required for med schools - and yes i know they use it more than dentisry) and also physician originally meant a practitioner of physic.
Now with dentistry having a degree title of DDS (doctor of dental surgery) or DMD (Dentariae Medicinae Doctorae = doctor of dental medicine) means that dentist must have the underlying knowledge of all subjects assicated with and pertaining those definitions in order to obtain that degree. This means that a dentist must not only be a master of the artistic qualities associated with dentistry, but also the didactic material associated with the field as well, and must do it in only 4 years! if there were going to be changes in the curriculum, hell, i think dental school should be 5-6 years as oposed to only 4 if it is expected, and assumed, that they are to be FULLY qualified to carry the title "doctor". i mean, you're history professor had to take a **** load of history classes to earn that title, even if they only wanted to study the civil war for the rest of their life.
overall, i feel that the didactic course work in med school or dental school is liberal-artistic in nature and is thus just fine the way it is. sorry, that's how i feel and i can't wait to be bored out of my mind.
