Facial Plastic Surgeon (ENT) vs. Craniofacial Surgeon (Plastics)

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chiriyan

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What is the difference in their practices (surgeries they perform, population they service, private vs. academic split)? Can Plastic surgeons become Facial Plastic certified, and can ENT surgeons become Craniofacial certified?

If you are one, or are trying to become one, why did you pick one or the other?

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What is the difference in their practices (surgeries they perform, population they service, private vs. academic split)? Can Plastic surgeons become Facial Plastic certified, and can ENT surgeons become Craniofacial certified?

If you are one, or are trying to become one, why did you pick one or the other?

I have an interest in another field, but I'll take a stab at it.

Facial plastic and reconstructive surgeons are ENTs that do the traditional cosmetic stuff: facelifts, blepharoplasties, nose jobs, etc

Craniofacial surgeons (plastic surgeons, ENT, and OMFS) work on congenital/pediatric stuff: craniosynostoses, cleft palate/lip, etc

Facial plastic surgeons works on adults. Craniofacial works on kids. FPRS are generally private practice. Craniofacial are generally academic; they need the infrastructure for taking care of the kids because their care is complex and requires a large interdisciplinary team.

Plastic surgeons don't need to, and don't become certified in FPRS; they already have more than enough training to do those cosmetic procedures. But if they decide to do even more specialized training in cosmetic surgery of the entire body, including the face, they can do an aesthetic fellowship.

Yes, ENTs can do a craniofacial fellowship.
 
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I can answer this with some degree of accuracy, and I think the above is fairly accurate.

So to begin with, you have ENT, ENT facial plastics, and then there are some ENT reconstructive fellowships. You can also complete an ENT residency and then go right on to do a full PRS fellowship (I wouldn't, but I know people who have).

General ENTs can do facial plastics. Most of us do at least some of these procedures - at the least some local reconstructive flaps for skin cancer defects, and in many cases rhinoplasties, facelifts, etc. You don't have to do additional training, you just have to be comfortable doing these things. We all do them in residency, just to varying degrees.

Craniosynostoses is tough to break in to with ENT. You can, certainly. But it tends to be dominated by PRS (usually a general surgeon who went on to a plastics and reconstructive fellowship, but really anyone who completed a plastics and reconstructive surgery fellowship). So even if you're trained to do it as an ENT, you might have trouble finding a job where you can just start doing those kinds of procedures. You might find someplace to train, but unless you get a job working at the same place, you have to go find one somewhere else, and that might be hard. There's a bit of territorialism in that sort of thing, and as mentioned above it's almost exclusively employed or academic in nature. In theory, you could open a practice and build it up doing craniosynostoses, but that is usually going to be a huge uphill battle that you will supplement by doing a lot of more general ENT and plastics.

ENT does a ton of skull base reconstruction, which is a whole other animal to include: skull base sinonasal tumors, temporal bone tumors, post traumatic skull base reconstruction, etc., etc., etc. Usually these are in conjunction with a neurosurgeon, but skull base recon is pretty solidly ENT.

Cleft palates - These are fairly well divided between ENT and PRS, and very regionally dependent as to who does them. I think you can probably do clefts using either route, it'll just depend upon where you go as to whether you can just walk in and start doing them, or whether you'll have to build a practice. Frankly, for soft palate and lip clefts as well as cleft lip rhinoplasty, I don't think I would have needed a fellowship to do them. They're not THAT complicated, but you have to have experience with them of course. You'll definitely be a more competitive applicant (and more attractive to the extremely nervous parents) if you have a fellowship. With ENT that might mean facial plastics or it might mean pediatric ENT.

There are actually some published articles out there looking at who does more of what (ENT vs. PRS) for common facial plastic procedures, and none of them break down the way you might think that they would. ENT actually does more cosmetic rhinoplasty than PRS, but PRS does more otoplasty (which seems odd to me, but that was what one article said). Nonetheless, I don't think any of that matters, because you can tailor your practice however you'd like.

So here's what I would say (sorry for any repetition)

Most ENT facial plastics guys don't actually do a lot of facial plastics, but that is entirely by choice. They just wanted the fellowship to look more attractive for the job market. You don't need to do a facial plastics fellowship as an ENT to do most facial plastics procedures, but the additional training gives you more exposure and if you want to do free flaps, well then you need the fellowship.

A lot of PRS guys don't do any cosmetics either. Just depends upon how they focus their practice. Some do only hand, for example. Others have entirely cosmetic practices that include facial cosmetic procedures of all varieties.

As an ENT facial plastics guy, you can do face lifts, brow lifts, rhinoplasty, otoplasty, facial fractures and trauma, clefts, auricular reconstruction, free flaps, facial reanimation, facial transplants (if you really want to be ultra-specialized and spend most of your time not doing your primary thing just because it's extremely rare). You can do almost anything above the clavicle that doesn't involve working inside the dura, spinal cord, or eyeball. Same as the PRS guy, you can do basically anything. You're just not doing boob jobs or tummy tucks. You can work for a hospital, or you can work for a university, or you can be privately employed. The bigger issue will be what you can do in each of those situations, because (for example) most cleft work is going to be done in a hospital or university setting. You really need a multidisciplinary clinic to manage those cases well, and that's just too cumbersome for most private practices.

If you do PRS, you can specialize in facial and craniofacial surgery. That, again, depends upon where you train and what you want to specialize in doing. This isn't additional training so much as it is just spending more time doing cosmetic facial surgery (for example) during their fellowship.

Here's what I've always said (and this is meant to be facetious and unfair): If you are a patient looking for a plastic surgeon: you can either go to the guy who spent three years working on colons, and then another three years split between cosmetics, craniofacial, hand surgery, boob jobs, and closing gaping wounds in the crotch, or you can go to someone who spent 5 years working on the head and neck and facial plastic and reconstruction and then another year working on nothing but facial cosmetics and reconstruction. Your choice.

But the truth is, you can do these things via either path. You might consider the route through that training rather than the end point. Meaning, if you wanted to do, say, facial cosmetic surgery - you can do it either way. So do you want to do a 5 year ENT residency complete with sinus surgery, ear surgery, tonsillectomies, and head and neck cancer as well as facial plastics - and then a facial plastics fellowship? Or do you want to do 3 years of general surgery, or an integrated PRS residency where you have to develop skills as a general surgeon and work on hands, etc.? If you're going to lose your mind doing tonsillectomies, then that will answer your question.

A final point:

It might actually be easier to find work as an ENT in a private practice setting. Maybe I'm off base on this, and you'd have to verify from a PRS guy. But my thought process is that most ENTs can literally just rent a space, buy equipment, and set up shop almost anywhere as long as the market isn't saturated. You usually have to build up a cosmetics practice, and in the interem you have to subsidize your practice somehow. If you're an ENT, you can very easily subsidize with fairly uncomplicated, low risk general ENT as you build the private cosmetics practice. This is a very common situation for ENT-facial plastics surgeons who ultimately only want to do cosmetics.
 
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I can answer this with some degree of accuracy, and I think the above is fairly accurate.

So to begin with, you have ENT, ENT facial plastics, and then there are some ENT reconstructive fellowships. You can also complete an ENT residency and then go right on to do a full PRS fellowship (I wouldn't, but I know people who have).

General ENTs can do facial plastics. Most of us do at least some of these procedures - at the least some local reconstructive flaps for skin cancer defects, and in many cases rhinoplasties, facelifts, etc. You don't have to do additional training, you just have to be comfortable doing these things. We all do them in residency, just to varying degrees.

Craniosynostoses is tough to break in to with ENT. You can, certainly. But it tends to be dominated by PRS (usually a general surgeon who went on to a plastics and reconstructive fellowship, but really anyone who completed a plastics and reconstructive surgery fellowship). So even if you're trained to do it as an ENT, you might have trouble finding a job where you can just start doing those kinds of procedures. You might find someplace to train, but unless you get a job working at the same place, you have to go find one somewhere else, and that might be hard. There's a bit of territorialism in that sort of thing, and as mentioned above it's almost exclusively employed or academic in nature. In theory, you could open a practice and build it up doing craniosynostoses, but that is usually going to be a huge uphill battle that you will supplement by doing a lot of more general ENT and plastics.

ENT does a ton of skull base reconstruction, which is a whole other animal to include: skull base sinonasal tumors, temporal bone tumors, post traumatic skull base reconstruction, etc., etc., etc. Usually these are in conjunction with a neurosurgeon, but skull base recon is pretty solidly ENT.

Cleft palates - These are fairly well divided between ENT and PRS, and very regionally dependent as to who does them. I think you can probably do clefts using either route, it'll just depend upon where you go as to whether you can just walk in and start doing them, or whether you'll have to build a practice. Frankly, for soft palate and lip clefts as well as cleft lip rhinoplasty, I don't think I would have needed a fellowship to do them. They're not THAT complicated, but you have to have experience with them of course. You'll definitely be a more competitive applicant (and more attractive to the extremely nervous parents) if you have a fellowship. With ENT that might mean facial plastics or it might mean pediatric ENT.

There are actually some published articles out there looking at who does more of what (ENT vs. PRS) for common facial plastic procedures, and none of them break down the way you might think that they would. ENT actually does more cosmetic rhinoplasty than PRS, but PRS does more otoplasty (which seems odd to me, but that was what one article said). Nonetheless, I don't think any of that matters, because you can tailor your practice however you'd like.

So here's what I would say (sorry for any repetition)

Most ENT facial plastics guys don't actually do a lot of facial plastics, but that is entirely by choice. They just wanted the fellowship to look more attractive for the job market. You don't need to do a facial plastics fellowship as an ENT to do most facial plastics procedures, but the additional training gives you more exposure and if you want to do free flaps, well then you need the fellowship.

A lot of PRS guys don't do any cosmetics either. Just depends upon how they focus their practice. Some do only hand, for example. Others have entirely cosmetic practices that include facial cosmetic procedures of all varieties.

As an ENT facial plastics guy, you can do face lifts, brow lifts, rhinoplasty, otoplasty, facial fractures and trauma, clefts, auricular reconstruction, free flaps, facial reanimation, facial transplants (if you really want to be ultra-specialized and spend most of your time not doing your primary thing just because it's extremely rare). You can do almost anything above the clavicle that doesn't involve working inside the dura, spinal cord, or eyeball. Same as the PRS guy, you can do basically anything. You're just not doing boob jobs or tummy tucks. You can work for a hospital, or you can work for a university, or you can be privately employed. The bigger issue will be what you can do in each of those situations, because (for example) most cleft work is going to be done in a hospital or university setting. You really need a multidisciplinary clinic to manage those cases well, and that's just too cumbersome for most private practices.

If you do PRS, you can specialize in facial and craniofacial surgery. That, again, depends upon where you train and what you want to specialize in doing. This isn't additional training so much as it is just spending more time doing cosmetic facial surgery (for example) during their fellowship.

Here's what I've always said (and this is meant to be facetious and unfair): If you are a patient looking for a plastic surgeon: you can either go to the guy who spent three years working on colons, and then another three years split between cosmetics, craniofacial, hand surgery, boob jobs, and closing gaping wounds in the crotch, or you can go to someone who spent 5 years working on the head and neck and facial plastic and reconstruction and then another year working on nothing but facial cosmetics and reconstruction. Your choice.

But the truth is, you can do these things via either path. You might consider the route through that training rather than the end point. Meaning, if you wanted to do, say, facial cosmetic surgery - you can do it either way. So do you want to do a 5 year ENT residency complete with sinus surgery, ear surgery, tonsillectomies, and head and neck cancer as well as facial plastics - and then a facial plastics fellowship? Or do you want to do 3 years of general surgery, or an integrated PRS residency where you have to develop skills as a general surgeon and work on hands, etc.? If you're going to lose your mind doing tonsillectomies, then that will answer your question.

A final point:

It might actually be easier to find work as an ENT in a private practice setting. Maybe I'm off base on this, and you'd have to verify from a PRS guy. But my thought process is that most ENTs can literally just rent a space, buy equipment, and set up shop almost anywhere as long as the market isn't saturated. You usually have to build up a cosmetics practice, and in the interem you have to subsidize your practice somehow. If you're an ENT, you can very easily subsidize with fairly uncomplicated, low risk general ENT as you build the private cosmetics practice. This is a very common situation for ENT-facial plastics surgeons who ultimately only want to do cosmetics.

Not much to add to this excellent post. In general, either can provide a path to build a great career.

I kind of stumbled into craniofacial surgery as it was the only part of plastic surgery I really enjoyed (and plastic surgery was the only part of General surgery I really enjoyed). My practice is 100 percent pediatric reconstructive surgery and I am the director of the cleft and craniofacial team, so for me the training pathway worked out great. But there are quite a few folks with similar practices who came from an ENT background as well.
 
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so if someone wanted to do OMFS for the hopes of being a Trauma God, and I don't mean little Trauma, more like only in an ED, working on patients with compromised Airways, doing CPR and Bagging people, helping those who go shot in the face, hit in the mouth with a baseball bat, or the following [graphic warning], what should they pathway be? OMFS (6 yr) --> Fellowship in CranioMaxillofacial Trauma --> Plastic and Recon?


And if they really want to help kids, throw in a peds fellowship, in there too?
 
I don’t know that I’ve ever met a “trauma god,” OMFS, ENT, or plastics who spent a lot of time in the ER bagging people and doing CPR. In fact, I would go so far as to say that basically never happens outside of an extremely unusual emergency. If one was a real trauma surgeon (general surgeon-trauma), perhaps. But keep in mind every single ER doc went in to ER specifically to do that heroic “as-seen-on-tv”’stuff. They’re unlikely to call you to do it at a trauma center.

Maybe you might get called for an emergency tracheotomy. But usually the ER is going to call the general surgeon or ENT to do that.

You could get a job doing major facial trauma at a county hospital after just an OMFS residency. I think in the US you’ll have stiff competition from the plastics and ENT guys in larger cities, but there are plenty of people who don’t want to do trauma. So you’ll find a place.

Insofar as whether you need to do a plastics or craniofacial fellowship: it will probably depend upon how much trauma you see and treat in your residency and what exactly it is you want to do.

The OMFS guys I knew during training could handle major facial trauma. Once you start getting in to braincase, you’ve got a neurosurgeon involved and they’re going to help out things back together. If someone has a LeForte 3, you have almost always become second fiddle to the trauma surgeons taking care of his major organ injury. At that point you may just be the guy they’re sending his jacked up face to when he’s out of the hospital and stable in 4 weeks, and you’re re-braking everything. Point is: it’s usually a team effort when you’re dealing with major trauma.

Not too sure what you would have to do to do pediatric facial trauma as an Oral Surgeon. Or how hard it would be to do so. The dental forums might be better equipped to answer that question.
 
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Cheers, I really appreciate that answer! So essentially for my f(c)ace specifically, Acute Care Gen Surg >> ENT >>>>> OMFS???
 
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Cheers, I really appreciate that answer! So essentially for my f(c)ace specifically, Acute Care Gen Surg >> ENT >>>>> OMFS???

Gen surg/trauma is never going to be the one handling that, at least in any setting Im aware of.

Plastics, ENT, OMFS can all be capable of handling that assuming your training is at a major trauma site.

In my opinion, I'd say if you're dealing with the giant exploded mandible/midfaces on a regular basis as in your picture, an ENT residency followed by a head and neck fellowship is probably the path of least resistance since they do cancer reconstructions on a regular basis. There are OMFS and plastics fellowships that do H+N recon but they're becoming less common from my understanding. At least in my training, the guy in your picture probably needs a scapula to rebuild the maxilla and mandible.
 
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ENT->facial plastics. Not a lot of head and neck guys doing pure trauma from my experience. Though I’m certainly not the master scheduler of all ENT. But you can do a fibular free flap with a trauma-recon heavy ENT facial plastics pathway.
 
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Cheers, I really appreciate that answer! So essentially for my f(c)ace specifically, Acute Care Gen Surg >> ENT >>>>> OMFS???
Maybe you’re a bit confused as to the terminology?

These are all completely different things. OMFS is someone who is a dentist and then does a residency in Oral-maxillofacial surgery They can do facial trauma. Most do not. Most spend the majority of their time pulling third molars - by choice.

General Surgeons are surgeons. They do a bit of most things. But basically never facial trauma, or at least not bony trauma of the face.

ENT docs do a variety of things as well above the head and neck, including both soft tissue and bony trauma. Most choose not to do a ton of trauma but all of us do some (if nothing else than a broken nose here and there).

You don’t really cross paths one to the other. I only know of a few exceptions, but it usually means repeating your training.
 
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Maybe you’re a bit confused as to the terminology?

These are all completely different things. OMFS is someone who is a dentist and then does a residency in Oral-maxillofacial surgery They can do facial trauma. Most do not. Most spend the majority of their time pulling third molars - by choice.

General Surgeons are surgeons. They do a bit of most things. But basically never facial trauma, or at least not bony trauma of the face.

ENT docs do a variety of things as well above the head and neck, including both soft tissue and bony trauma. Most choose not to do a ton of trauma but all of us do some (if nothing else than a broken nose here and there).

You don’t really cross paths one to the other. I only know of a few exceptions, but it usually means repeating your training.
Why do a lot of ent‘s not do trauma?
 
Why do a lot of ent‘s not do trauma?

Because most ENTs make a very good living doing outpatient surgery on healthy patients with good outcomes. Trauma comes in the middle of the night, needs to be added on the OR schedule at odd times, and the patient population is not the greatest. There's an old saying: most patients with a mandible fracture deserve one.
 
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Yeah, trauma is never convenient, rarely pays well, and almost always screws up your schedule. And as said above (although phrased differently): if you come in with a broken jaw there’s an 80% chance you’re an @$$hole.
I mean, you do get the 17 year old baseball player who took a line drive to the face, and his Dad owns a car lot or an Applebee’s or something. But usually it’s a 300 lbs guy with an infested beard who smells like a bar rag that someone used to wipe their back end, and he picked a fight with the wrong guy and is still picking fights with everyone from the door to the ER to the operating room. Or it’s a 22 year old meth head that the cops shot, and the bullet actually struck the recon bar you put in to his mandible the last time the cops brought him in.....not that any of those things has ever happened to me.
 
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Oh, and then those guys come back pissed at you because they can feel the bar, or because they don’t like their scar or because they have malunion because they cut themselves out of MMF using a pair of needle nosed pliers in their garage because their gramma was making Al Pastor and they couldn’t chew it.

Although I kind of sympathize with the last guy, and blame his gramma.
 
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Oh, and then those guys come back pissed at you because they can feel the bar, or because they don’t like their scar or because they have malunion because they cut themselves out of MMF using a pair of needle nosed pliers in their garage because their gramma was making Al Pastor and they couldn’t chew it.

Although I kind of sympathize with the last guy, and blame his gramma.

I also sympathize with the poor little babies and kids who got hurt--that's why I want to do trauma.
 
Sure. In get that. Pediatric facial trauma is far more rare, but it certainly occurs and needs someone to take care of it. But the number of people who do it is much, much smaller. Now you’re probably talking about working at a children’s hospital specifically.
 
Sure. In get that. Pediatric facial trauma is far more rare, but it certainly occurs and needs someone to take care of it. But the number of people who do it is much, much smaller. Now you’re probably talking about working at a children’s hospital specifically.

Yeah, absolutely! That's why it's consuming so much of my time (and your guys' times--my apologies), because I don't know what's the best pathway to take for that. I'm in Dental School, but I am now considering whether continuing with my OMFS pursuit followed by fellowship(s), or going into a 3-Year MD Program, then ENT/Plastics/GSurg(fellowship(s) in acute genSurg/pedsSurg), etc.

:)
 
Yeah, absolutely! That's why it's consuming so much of my time (and your guys' times--my apologies), because I don't know what's the best pathway to take for that. I'm in Dental School, but I am now considering whether continuing with my OMFS pursuit followed by fellowship(s), or going into a 3-Year MD Program, then ENT/Plastics/GSurg(fellowship(s) in acute genSurg/pedsSurg), etc.

I'm also thinking OMFS/MD followed by Plastics and fellowship in peds facial trauma--but I don't want to be the Mr. Planning 20 Years from now.

:)
 
I think you’ll be forging a unique path going this route. It may be quite difficult to get sound advice rather than speculation, as I doubt many people have gone this route before. Maybe I’m wrong. I think your best bet is to get an MD and try to get in to an ENT or Plastics program. I know a couple of guys who have done OMFS->ENT. I don’t personally know anyone who has done OMFS->Plastics. I don’t know for certain if that can be done (I’m talking integrated plastics, not an OMFS cosmetics fellowship). If you go the ENT route, you would probably have to think about a peds fellowship in order to do pediatric trauma specifically. It would be worthwhile to ask an actual OMFS doc about the possibility of doing pediatric facial trauma without having to respecialize. I don’t know what the likelihood of that is. May be high. May be nonexistent.
And I think you would have to do more than just pediatric trauma at most places. Again, peds facial trauma is pretty rare. So you should consider what it is you would want to do with the rest of your time as that may influence your decision.
 
Are you going to school in the US? I always assume yes, but it is important. OMFS can be very different depending upon where you’re training.
 
I trained at a very busy level 1 trauma center. Even at a place like that, there is not enough volume of pediatric facial trauma to sustain a practice doing only that. You could certainly focus your practice on facial trauma via an OMFS route, but you'd likely be working mostly on adult patients.
 
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Yeah, or you could do peds dental/OMFS and facial trauma, or if you went and ENT->peds route you might be able to do some head and neck masses and trauma, etc. I think even if you found a job that let you do a research/trauma split, you would still need to do some “general” work outside of trauma just to make ends meet.
 
Yeah, or you could do peds dental/OMFS and facial trauma, or if you went and ENT->peds route you might be able to do some head and neck masses and trauma, etc. I think even if you found a job that let you do a research/trauma split, you would still need to do some “general” work outside of trauma just to make ends meet.
Can I pm you
 
Very excellent points everyone, yeah, I guess what I can do is just do facial trauma in general, and ask my bosses in the hospital to call me whenever anything happens in the Peds ED. I was also looking at doing trauma overseas for the troops when I was younger, but given that (thankfully) the world is becoming a kinder and not as violent place, that option is no longer viable.

Yeah, US and Canada are where I want to practice, although OMFS in Canada is more private-practice orientated, and not many Hospital Privileges to go around.

I guess I'll talk to OMFS faculty, some ENT's, and I'll go from there. I guess right now then, my best bet is to go either 6-year OMFS/MD, or 3-Year MD/DO.

:)
 
I also sympathize with the poor little babies and kids who got hurt--that's why I want to do trauma.

Trust me, this gets old very very quickly.....and a significant portion of these cases are nonoperative anyway.

I do know of one OMFS graduate who went on to do a 3 year plastic surgery fellowship and is now plastics faculty at a top-tier academic institution, but it's rare. If you just like facial trauma, it probably makes more sense to do OMFS and then get privileges to take trauma call at the hospital/children's hospital wherever you end up practicing. That way you can make bank pulling third molars and do some trauma for fun. As has been alluded to, though, the trauma stuff tends to lose its allure after you've sewn up your fortieth 3am pediatric dog bite in the back room of some peds ED while the child life specialist breathes down your neck, or done a re-do re-do mandible on a tatted-up jackass that keeps getting punched in the face for good reason.

If the complex congenital stuff truly interests you (I.e., not just trauma but congenital craniofacial reconstruction) there are a couple of OMFS pediatric craniofacial fellowships out there. The issue then becomes getting a job that will let you do those cases once you graduate...people are generally ok with giving up trauma call to the new guy but not so much the clefts and cranial vaults. If this is the route you want to go, it may make more sense to go the plastic surgery or ENT route to allow you to do one of the bigger-name craniofacial fellowships, but be aware that the job market is very slim for those jobs after graduation.
 
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Very excellent points everyone, yeah, I guess what I can do is just do facial trauma in general, and ask my bosses in the hospital to call me whenever anything happens in the Peds ED. I was also looking at doing trauma overseas for the troops when I was younger, but given that (thankfully) the world is becoming a kinder and not as violent place, that option is no longer viable.

Yeah, US and Canada are where I want to practice, although OMFS in Canada is more private-practice orientated, and not many Hospital Privileges to go around.

I guess I'll talk to OMFS faculty, some ENT's, and I'll go from there. I guess right now then, my best bet is to go either 6-year OMFS/MD, or 3-Year MD/DO.

:)

I promise you the world isn't a kinder, more gentle place. You're just not hearing about it because right now the media is more concerned with COVID. In order to do military trauma overseas, you would need to join the military. OMFS does handle the majority of downrange facial trauma. They are ALWAYS hiring (even when they shouldn't be). I wouldn't recommend that you do this for a variety of reasons, and depending upon your exact circumstances it might not be a viable option anyway.
 
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