Fail out?

[lailanni]

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Just curious - what happens to med students who fail a semester/quarter of med school?

Are they allowed to re-do a year? Are there any who fail more than once and are allowed to return?

 

[nogolfinsnow]

Just curious - what happens to med students who fail a semester/quarter of med school?

Are they allowed to re-do a year? Are there any who fail more than once and are allowed to return?

I'm sure it varies school to school. At mine, I think you can fail a 1 or 2 units (we have a systems-based curriculum) and remediate them over the summer. If remediation fails, you repeat the year. As well, if you fail too many units the first year, you repeat the year. If you fail again during your repeat year, you're out. I'm pretty sure the same holds true for second year, but they won't let you repeat first year and then repeat 2nd year. But they definitely do not have a quick trigger. There are lots of efforts to get students the help they need to be succesfull.

 

[Law2Doc]

Just curious - what happens to med students who fail a semester/quarter of med school?

Are they allowed to re-do a year? Are there any who fail more than once and are allowed to return?

The general rule at US allo schools is that you get second, third and maybe even fourth chances. So if you fail a course you are expected to retake either a test or the whole course. If you fail multiple courses, you probably have to retake the year. And at some schools a handful of people get "left back" every year. It's very hard to fail "out" at most places, but you can definitely fail things and extend your medical school tenure (at a price of another year's tuition and a black mark on your transcript) at many schools.

 

[Tiger26]

Just curious - what happens to med students who fail a semester/quarter of med school?

Are they allowed to re-do a year? Are there any who fail more than once and are allowed to return?

Don't they just go to dental school?





--kidding, kidding, but feel free to flame anyway--

 

[phospho]

The general rule at US allo schools is that you get second, third and maybe even fourth chances.

that's actually very reassuring😳

 

[lailanni]

I'm a little surprised, I would've thought they'd be a little more strict.

Is it because they're just being nice, or is there some financial benefit to the school to have the seat filled?

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm a little surprised, I would've thought they'd be a little more strict.

Is it because they're just being nice, or is there some financial benefit to the school to have the seat filled?

It's because the policy is to make admissions very strict, such that anyone who gets in is deemed someone who will complete the training eventually. So they reject as many as they accept, and then 95% of those who get in end up becoming doctors -- attrition is pretty negligible. By contrast other places (eg caribbean, overseas) take a larger percentage of people at the admissions stage, but weed out people who don't perform. The US view is that this latter approach is meaner, and given the expenses involved, it's nicer to never let someone start than take their money and fail them out. So that's just our system. That being said, if you end up repeating a year, which costs you 30k, plus basically eliminates you from the more competitive residencies, that's a pretty harsh result. So don't look at failing and retaking as a great option. But yes, if you get into a US med school you will probably end up a doctor if you are willing to put in the effort however long it takes.

 

[cpants]

It's also because they are investing money in your education. The cost of your schooling costs more than you pay in tuition at every school. If that extra money they put toward you goes to waste, they will never see a return on that investment in the form of your future donations of money, time, teaching ability, placement of their students in residencies/rotations, etc.

 

[BigRedBeta]

^^^^^Bingo - spot on post

There's a guy who just graduated with me who failed first year, repeated the entire year and passed, passed 2nd year first try, failed Step 1 the first try, failed Step 1 the second time - which pulled him out of 3rd year clerkships, passed Step 1 on his third attempt and started third year again with the class below (mine) and then passed third and fourth year with flying colors, passed both parts of Step 2 and then successfully matched (though I'm sure his options were somewhat limited)...Med school took him 6 years to complete. Obviously not the way you want to do it, but he's got the degree that says he's an MD.

 

[phospho]

^^^^^Bingo - spot on post

There's a guy who just graduated with me who failed first year, repeated the entire year and passed, passed 2nd year first try, failed Step 1 the first try, failed Step 1 the second time - which pulled him out of 3rd year clerkships, passed Step 1 on his third attempt and started third year again with the class below (mine) and then passed third and fourth year with flying colors, passed both parts of Step 2 and then successfully matched (though I'm sure his options were somewhat limited)...Med school took him 6 years to complete. Obviously not the way you want to do it, but he's got the degree that says he's an MD.

holy crap, good for him!!

 

[lailanni]

It's because the policy is to make admissions very strict, such that anyone who gets in is deemed someone who will complete the training eventually. So they reject as many as they accept, and then 95% of those who get in end up becoming doctors -- attrition is pretty negligible. By contrast other places (eg caribbean, overseas) take a larger percentage of people at the admissions stage, but weed out people who don't perform. The US view is that this latter approach is meaner, and given the expenses involved, it's nicer to never let someone start than take their money and fail them out. So that's just our system. That being said, if you end up repeating a year, which costs you 30k, plus basically eliminates you from the more competitive residencies, that's a pretty harsh result. So don't look at failing and retaking as a great option. But yes, if you get into a US med school you will probably end up a doctor if you are willing to put in the effort however long it takes.

Same thing with vet school. I guess once you're in, you're in.

Out of curiosity, what are your more and less competitive residencies?

 

[Law2Doc]

Same thing with vet school. I guess once you're in, you're in.

Out of curiosity, what are your more and less competitive residencies?

There are lots and lots of threads on this, esp in pre-allo. There is also an AAMC publication that breaks down the specialties by average board scores. To be really brief (and all this is subject to differences of opinion -- you can find more discussion elsewhere), the most competitive things tend to be dermatology, plastics, rad onc, competitive things include ortho, uro, rads, anesthesiology, optho, and middle tends to be IM, neuro, gen surg, and the least competitive things include OB, FP, psych, peds and PM&R.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

OP, is that a puppy, rabbit, cat, or some strange combination of all 3 in your avi? 😕

 

[lailanni]

That is my rabbit, Buster. He is a lionhead; a relatively new rabbit breed. They have a little mane!

I got him from a shelter. No one wanted him because he was too fiesty - he was supposed to be put down from biting too many people. Now he's still pretty fiesty but he's perfect for me. I could go on and on...🙂

 

[Perrotfish]

How much attention do rabbits generally need? I've wanted a pet for awhile, but I know I don't have the time and dedication for a dog right now. If I just get a pair of rabbits and feed them regularly, are they pretty much happy on their own?

 

[lailanni]

They're much less work than a dog, but still need some work. They're smarter and funner than people realize. Buster knows 3 voice commands and is litter box trained. He even jumps on my bed to wake me up when it's time for breakfast.

If you want them to live long healthy lives (around 9 years) you should get them spayed/neutered. They have a really high incidence of reproductive cancer if you don't - both males and females. Plus they will spray pee to mark their territory and attempt to hump things/you if they have not been fixed. No one likes that 🙂

They're pretty low maintenance if you get ones without health issues. One of the more common problems is misaligned teeth that need trimming - their teeth grow constantly and can make very painful molar spurs. They also need regular nail trimming like dogs.

They should always have access to hay as their primary food source, supplemented with pellets. If you have a hay allergy, then rabbits aren't a good idea.

I also suggest a larger cage/pen. The cages that are bought at pet stores aren't big enough for the rabbit to get enough exercise and be comfortable. They often develop sores on their feet from the wire bottoms.

So, to finish this little novel, they're kind of similar to cats for the level of care. If you have any questions just let me know! 🙂

 

[penguin24]

Although med school is tough in terms of working you hard, they aren't strict in kicking u out, which is nice for ppl who are already in 200K in debt and happen to fail step II by 1 point, wouldn't it suck to say, "sorry, you failed stepII, find another career to help pay off your 200K loans."

On the other hand, doctors are responsible for ppl's lives, so there is a point where you have to draw the line and say, "sorry, i know u are 200K in debt, but u don't demonstrate the proficiency to be responsible for ppl's lives"

 

[lailanni]

And, at the risk of seeming like a huge rabbit nerd, here's a great link with basic rabbit care info. Hits all the important points.

http://rabbitron.com/care.html

Eh, I guess it's kind of my job to be an animal nerd.

 

[ratbandit]

Hi Lailanni, just out of curiosity - what is the "failing out" policy at your school - do the students get to repeat the class that they failed or do they have to repeat the whole year if they do badly? Here if you fail a class you get kicked out, period, and the only way you can get back in is to reapply and start at the beginning. Also if you get 9 (I think) credit hours worth of D's then you have to go back and start over at the place where you got your first D. Some people can repeat a year but usually only for extenuating (medical & family) circumstances. I've always thought this was a little strict! Is this not the norm for vet/med schools?

 

[Law2Doc]

... Is this not the norm for vet/med schools?

I don't think there is enough commonality between vet and med schools that you can lump them in a single question. If you two vet folks have questions about vet schools you guys should really move it to the appropriate board -- this is for allopathic medical school discussions. Thanks. 🙂

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

That is my rabbit, Buster. He is a lionhead; a relatively new rabbit breed. They have a little mane!

I got him from a shelter. No one wanted him because he was too fiesty - he was supposed to be put down from biting too many people. Now he's still pretty fiesty but he's perfect for me. I could go on and on...🙂

He kinda looks like a baby llama too.

I like him. 👍

Kudos to you for rescuing him! I rescued my pet too.

If you have a hay allergy, then rabbits aren't a good idea.

...which is why I've never had one as a kid (despite havin a yard full of wild ones) or now. 🙁

I did have a guinea pig, and I want another one. My dog is a lot of work now so maybe I'll get a pair of guinea pigs when she's older. 🙂

 

[Climberak]

It's because the policy is to make admissions very strict, such that anyone who gets in is deemed someone who will complete the training eventually. So they reject as many as they accept, and then 95% of those who get in end up becoming doctors -- attrition is pretty negligible. By contrast other places (eg caribbean, overseas) take a larger percentage of people at the admissions stage, but weed out people who don't perform. The US view is that this latter approach is meaner, and given the expenses involved, it's nicer to never let someone start than take their money and fail them out. So that's just our system. That being said, if you end up repeating a year, which costs you 30k, plus basically eliminates you from the more competitive residencies, that's a pretty harsh result. So don't look at failing and retaking as a great option. But yes, if you get into a US med school you will probably end up a doctor if you are willing to put in the effort however long it takes.

I dunno, they didn't seem to mind when they took my $120 secondary application fee and never even wrote me a letter/email back telling me that I wasn't good enough.

 

[Law2Doc]

I dunno, they didn't seem to mind when they took my $120 secondary application fee and never even wrote me a letter/email back telling me that I wasn't good enough.

$120 and $120k are very different. One can impact your life for years, the other means you can't eat out once or twice.

 

[Bitsy]

Law2Doc already beat me to it, but yeah a $120 and $40,000-60,000 a year are a little different. Plus you're one of thousands who had their secondary application fee lead eventually to a rejection/presumed rejection. It's just considered part of the application process to spend lots of money and hopefully come out with at least one acceptance, although as many know, that certainly is not guaranteed either.