Failed community college course during high school?

[neonghost]

Hello, I have a question. While looking at my community college transcript, I noticed that I have an F for a course that I never took at the college, and this was while I was in high school, so it may have been that I signed something then didn't realize I was registered and there wasn't an automatic drop. It's really stressing me out, do I have to enter this on my medical school application and will it affect my GPA and chances of admission.
What can I do about it?

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[V5RED]

You need to enter it, and it is unlikely to make one bit of difference as long as you do well in college. What will make a difference is trying to hide it.

FWIW I have a criminal record and failed out of college back in 2005 and am currently enrolled in an MD program at my #1 pick school.

 

[rockhard805]

I had a similar issue, so I suggest trying to speak with someone at the school to see if you can retroactively withdraw from that class.

 

[neonghost]

I will definitely try to call and petition, however I unfortunately already sent that transcript to AMCAS and they have it on file... So I don't know how I would get them to retract it anyway...

 

[neonghost]

Would I be able to put it as incomplete?
'
Incomplete (I)
A course is considered Incomplete if the work required for it was not completed within the appropriate time limit. If the Incomplete is unresolved, no AMCAS grade will be assigned; however, if the Incomplete is resolved, an AMCAS grade will be assigned. Select Incomplete even if:  A grade has been ultimately assigned, or  There is no notation indicating Incomplete on the official transcript. Many schools will assign an "IF" or "F" grade if the coursework is not completed within a given time limit. If attempted credit hours are listed on the official transcript or can be determined by AMCAS, this "F" will be included in your AMCAS GPAs.

 

[V5RED]

I will definitely try to call and petition, however I unfortunately already sent that transcript to AMCAS and they have it on file... So I don't know how I would get them to retract it anyway...

Having it deleted now will mean nothing. If they already have the file, they already have it. I still think it will have no effect on your chances assuming you are an otherwise competitive candidate.

 

[neonghost]

But at least it won't affect my GPA, even if they see it as withdrawn. Because ALL community college classes go into the GPA, right? and it's not like medical schools see the transcript?

 

[ZedsDed]

But at least it won't affect my GPA, even if they see it as withdrawn. Because ALL community college classes go into the GPA, right? and it's not like medical schools see the transcript?

It will affect your GPA. All undergrad work, regardless of when it was taken, is calculated into your uGPA. I have 2 D's and a C from classes I took when I was 16, and they dropped my GPA down 0.2. That being said, if the rest of your CV is strong, I think you'll be fine. If you are a borderline applicant, this might be a problem.

 

[mehc012]

It will affect your GPA. All undergrad work, regardless of when it was taken, is calculated into your uGPA. I have 2 D's and a C from classes I took when I was 16, and they dropped my GPA down 0.2. That being said, if the rest of your CV is strong, I think you'll be fine. If you are a borderline applicant, this might be a problem.

I believe they meant if they got it counted as 'Withdrawn'.

From the above description, marking it as 'Incomplete' would not help you anyway (still counts in your GPA), so you'd be risking dishonesty for literally zero gain.

 

[sat0ri]

• Incompletes are usually only applicable if you intend to complete the course at some point; besides, this wouldn't help you even if you were eligible.
  
• A "F" on your transcript can substantially drop your GPA, especially in cases where (1) you don't have many credits, for instance, if you were a traditional applicant, (2a) it is a science class which will look bad in and of itself and (2b) will drop your sGPA even more dramatically because there are less credits so it's even more weighted, (3) it is a high credit class, e.g. 5 credits /120 credits of bachlor's is nearly 5% or your GPA
  
• It is possible that the institution where you received the F at has procedures in place for retroactive withdrawals. AMCAS requires you to list grade replacements, but a withdrawals would only need to be listed as a W. This assumes that your institution deems your situation worthy of a retroactive withdrawal, meaning they believe you do not need to list it, and therefore won't list it on your official transcripts like they would for grade foregivenss. Often, there are limited time windows that this is a viable options. It likely requires a documented reason, and ignorance usually isn't an extenuating circumstance. If you have records that show you never attended the class, this might be enough grounds say that you should have been withdrawn automatically (or something along those lines). You might be able to procure a statement from a pre-health advisor who can vouch for how impactful a F might be in a competitive process like med school applications, and smaller/friendlier institutions might be more willing to accept this as documentation and sweep this under rug. Your home institution where you received the F would be where to find more information.
  
• The severity of your F is probably mitigated by the fact that it was so early in your career, especially in light of trends that can evidence your case that it was an isolated event.

 

[amad01]

I was asked about a B- I got in high school at two of my interviews and I was accepted at both of those schools

 

[neonghost]

I was just told that what AMCAS sends to schools is only the science and cumulative GPA... so they don't break it down by year?

 

[Mad Jack]

Had this issue, sort of- had a C- in a World History course from CC during high school. It was my lowest grade by far, and was never mentioned on any interview.

 

[neonghost]

Had this issue, sort of- had a C- in a World History course from CC during high school. It was my lowest grade by far, and was never mentioned on any interview.

But it affected your GPA right, and it was calculated into the cumulative? That's what I am most scared of

 

[Mad Jack]

But it affected your GPA right, and it was calculated into the cumulative? That's what I am most scared of

Yep, it did. Dinged me pretty hard. But whatever, it is what it is. Hiding it can really bury you, as it's easy to see the schools you've attended in the past via the Student Clearinghouse, and would constitute a violation of the AMCAS terms if discovered, possibly resulting in revocation of your application and a ban from reapplying in future years.

 

[cactus8910]

I was just told that what AMCAS sends to schools is only the science and cumulative GPA... so they don't break it down by year?

Who told you that? I've definitely seen adcoms on sdn say they see the overall GPA, institution GPA, and GPA by year (and maybe even semester). How else would they see upward (or downward) trends?

 

[gettheleadout]

I was just told that what AMCAS sends to schools is only the science and cumulative GPA... so they don't break it down by year?

Definitely incorrect. Schools receive your complete AMCAS app as it appears when you download it in PDF form after completing it. This includes your complete AMCAS transcript and GPA breakdown by year and course category (i.e. cumulative, science, all other).

Edit: OP, the harsh reality is that the F will have to be reported and, while it will be shown on AMCAS (and to schools) as clearly originating from a high school-era course, it will significantly hurt your total undergraduate GPA calculations. Accept this, make accommodations, and move on.

 

[Lamel]

Yeah it will affect your GPA, but hopefully once eyes get on your application they will see that it was from HS. I had a drop due to HS courses as well but it ended up ok for me; I think it is a short-sighted policy that they have to be reported.

 

[neonghost]

Ok, I have a chance of having it removed, but it may take a while. Should I wait up to 4-6 weeks or just submit and notify them once a transcript chance comes through? Will AMCAS change my gpa?

 

[ZedsDed]

First question, your call. Second question, call AMCAS and ask them.

 

[neonghost]

I called and the person couldn't answer any of my questions after an hour on hold. I think I will try to call again, if they will reprocess it then I might as well submit as soon as I can, correct?

 

[ZedsDed]

I called and the person couldn't answer any of my questions after an hour on hold. I think I will try to call again, if they will reprocess it then I might as well submit as soon as I can, correct?

I wouldn't frame your entire application around the presumption that the F's will be removed. Most people are unsuccessful in their attempts to get retroactive withdrawals. Just do the best you can.

 

[neonghost]

When do you guys think is the latest I should submit my app? I think mid June is probably pushing it as it is, but I'm willing to wait and see if I could get this withdrawl processed faster!

 

[mehc012]

Ok, I have a chance of having it removed, but it may take a while. Should I wait up to 4-6 weeks or just submit and notify them once a transcript chance comes through? Will AMCAS change my gpa?

They will not change your gpa once you've been verified.
I think it's definitely worth waiting. Mid June is identical to early June from the schools' perspectives...they don't see anyone's apps until July 1. Late June/early July is still an early app.

 

[neonghost]

They will not change your gpa once you've been verified.
I think it's definitely worth waiting. Mid June is identical to early June from the schools' perspectives...they don't see anyone's apps until July 1. Late June/early July is still an early app.

This is what is written regarding course work, I think a withdrawn class counts to change the GPA, no? Or am I reading it wrong?
Coursework Changes
To address changes made by AMCAS to your Course Work during the Verification process, you must submit an Academic Change Request. The Academic Change Request is located in the vertical menu on the right side of the application. This option becomes available only after your application has completed the Verification process. Please allow at least five business days for AMCAS to review and/or process the Academic Change Request.

Please note that AMCAS will not change or correct:

• Course names, titles, or numbers.
• Updated grades and/or hours for the following type of courses that have been left off the application and did not appear on any official transcript at the time of processing:
  • Current and Future (CC)
  • Deferred Grade (DG)
  • Honor (H)
  • Incomplete (I)

 

[mehc012]

This is what is written regarding course work, I think a withdrawn class counts to change the GPA, no? Or am I reading it wrong?
Coursework Changes
To address changes made by AMCAS to your Course Work during the Verification process, you must submit an Academic Change Request. The Academic Change Request is located in the vertical menu on the right side of the application. This option becomes available only after your application has completed the Verification process. Please allow at least five business days for AMCAS to review and/or process the Academic Change Request.

I think you're misreading the your quoted portion of AMCAS

• Course names, titles, or numbers.
• Updated grades and/or hours for the following type of courses that have been left off the application and did not appear on any official transcript at the time of processing:
  • Current and Future (CC)
  • Deferred Grade (DG)
  • Honor (H)
  • Incomplete (I)

I think you're misreading a few things in there. The key line in this section goes as follows:

To address changes made by AMCAS to your Course Work during the Verification process

This is intended to allow you to challenge any adjustments AMCAS itself makes. As an example, students from my school have only 1 credit on the transcript for each class. We have to enter 1 credit. During verification, AMCAS goes through and changes that 1 credit to a variety of values, depending on whether the course included a lab and/or which department it was in. If they do that wrong, which is not uncommon, the Academic Change Request allows me to get the adjustments fixed.

They then continue to point out that:

Please note that AMCAS will not change or correct:

• Course names, titles, or numbers.
• Updated grades and/or hours for the following type of courses that have been left off the application and did not appear on any official transcript at the time of processing:
  • Current and Future (CC)
  • Deferred Grade (DG)
  • Honor (H)
  • Incomplete (I)

Now, they don't specifically list Withdrawal on there as a course type, but in this instance, I do not believe that omission is solid evidence that they will act as you hope they will. The common understanding is that once you submit your application, the only updates you can make to it are to your contact information, your letters (adding only, no edits or subtractions), and your school list (again, add only).

 

[neonghost]

I will continue talking to them and get a more solid response as to what they mean.

So what should I do? Should I wait to submit in hopes that I have a chance of getting this grade removed? When is the latest I can/should submit?

 

[ZedsDed]

I will continue talking to them and get a more solid response as to what they mean.

So what should I do? Should I wait to submit in hopes that I have a chance of getting this grade removed? When is the latest I can/should submit?

OP, you are being neurotic, even for a premed. Everyone here has given you their opinion. Now you have to make a decision

 

[mehc012]

I will continue talking to them and get a more solid response as to what they mean.

So what should I do? Should I wait to submit in hopes that I have a chance of getting this grade removed? When is the latest I can/should submit?

I think it's definitely worth waiting. Mid June is identical to early June from the schools' perspectives...they don't see anyone's apps until July 1. Late June/early July is still an early app.

 

[neonghost]

And what about beyond mid June? What is the trade off between having an F on my transcript and then sending schools an updated transcript with it removed vs sending it straight to AMCAS and being late?

I know I'm neurotic I've had two days to deal with this shock

 

[mehc012]

And what about beyond mid June? What is the trade off between having an F on my transcript and then sending schools an updated transcript with it removed vs sending it straight to AMCAS and being late?

I know I'm neurotic I've had two days to deal with this shock

The schools aren't going to look through a transcript update. Some don't accept updates at all, and those that do are unlikely to take "oh hey, I got proof that the F you either didn't notice or noticed and didn't care about because it was in HS really super doesn't count now" as a meaningful update.
No matter who you send an updated transcript to, anyone reading your app will still see the gpa you had when AMCAS verified you.

If you're going to change it, don't submit until you do. A change of several points on your gpa is probably worth waiting through July for, imo, unless perhaps your MCAT is a knockout.

Early-mid June is functionally equivalent to early July...you're still in that first batch or so of reviews. Mid-late July is early, but starting to bump into the peak of application season. Late July-early Aug is peak, and mid-late Aug is getting on the tail end of peak. Once you reach the end of August, you start to get into 'late' territory.

If you have solid stats and a strong app, timing is less important.
I'm applying super early because I have unbalanced stats and will look better when compared to far fewer applicants, so my MCAT can stand out.

For most people, it doesn't matter unless they're late.

 

[ZedsDed]

The schools aren't going to look through a transcript update. Some don't accept updates at all, and those that do are unlikely to take "oh hey, I got proof that the F you either didn't notice or noticed and didn't care about because it was in HS really super doesn't count now" as a meaningful update.
No matter who you send an updated transcript to, anyone reading your app will still see the gpa you had when AMCAS verified you.

If you're going to change it, don't submit until you do. A change of several points on your gpa is probably worth waiting through July for, imo, unless perhaps your MCAT is a knockout.

Early-mid June is functionally equivalent to early July...you're still in that first batch or so of reviews. Mid-late July is early, but starting to bump into the peak of application season. Late July-early Aug is peak, and mid-late Aug is getting on the tail end of peak. Once you reach the end of August, you start to get into 'late' territory.

If you have solid stats and a strong app, timing is less important.
I'm applying super early because I have unbalanced stats and will look better when compared to far fewer applicants, so my MCAT can stand out.

For most people, it doesn't matter unless they're late.

I disagree, the chances OP will be able to successfully appeal the grade are slim, if the situation is as described. "I forgot to drop the class" or "I didn't know I needed to drop the class" are not going to be considered legitimate excuses, in my experience. If the OP tries to claim anything else they will ask for verifiable proof.

 

[Redpancreas]

Hello, I have a question. While looking at my community college transcript, I noticed that I have an F for a course that I never took at the college, and this was while I was in high school, so it may have been that I signed something then didn't realize I was registered and there wasn't an automatic drop. It's really stressing me out, do I have to enter this on my medical school application and will it affect my GPA and chances of admission.
What can I do about it?

You need to enter this. It happened to a good friend. Seek advice on where it may be appropriate to try to explain what happened.

FWIW: My good friend ran into this problem and he's also matriculated at a solid MD school.

 

[mehc012]

I disagree, the chances OP will be able to successfully appeal the grade are slim, if the situation is as described. "I forgot to drop the class" or "I didn't know I needed to drop the class" are not going to be considered legitimate excuses, in my experience. If the OP tries to claim anything else they will ask for verifiable proof.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to comment on the likelihood that they could get it retroactively withdrawn, but only that if they are going to try, they should wait to submit. As far as I'm concerned, once they hit submit on their application, there is no further point in attempting to change the grade on the transcript.

I think it is definitely worth waiting until mid-june to give them time to speak with their school and see if a withdrawal is likely. if it is likely, and again, this is not me indicating I think it will be, then it is probably worth waiting whatever amount of processing time is required. If it is not, they have lost nothing by waiting a few weeks.

 

[neonghost]

UPDATE:
AFTER A LOT OF ESCALATION UP THE LADDER OF SUPERVISORS, I FINALLY GOT THROUGH TO SOMEONE!
So, due to the fact that a withdrawl was not possible due to time and other reasons,
I got something called an academic renewal.
Basically, they take the class out of my GPA and it's considered withdrawn, and the units do not count, however the F is still there (but its in paranthesis which is their way of saying its taken out).

New question: how do I enter this into AMCAS and will they accept this as something I don't need to include for amcas gpa calculation?

 

[northernlights15]

No, the "academic renewal" is institutional policy. Unfortunately, I do believe the F will still be calculated into your AMCAS GPA. I honestly would not sweat it though. Schools will see your upward trend and realize it was one bad grade from HS.

What's your GPA with the F?

 

[mehc012]

UPDATE:
AFTER A LOT OF ESCALATION UP THE LADDER OF SUPERVISORS, I FINALLY GOT THROUGH TO SOMEONE!
So, due to the fact that a withdrawl was not possible due to time and other reasons,
I got something called an academic renewal.
Basically, they take the class out of my GPA and it's considered withdrawn, and the units do not count, however the F is still there (but its in paranthesis which is their way of saying its taken out).

New question: how do I enter this into AMCAS and will they accept this as something I don't need to include for amcas gpa calculation?

I believe that, as long as there is still a grade and credit units listed in your transcript, it would still factor into AMCAS...they don't look at the GPA your college sends them, just the individual classes and grades.
I believe the following still applies:

 Depending on how they are considered by your school, grades of "IF" or unauthorized/unofficial/administrative withdrawal may be treated as "F" in your AMCAS GPA.
 Grades and credit hours for all failed courses will be included in your AMCAS GPA even if they are not included in the GPA calculations of the transcript-issuing institution.

 

[mehc012]

Then again, there is:

If you made an unofficial or administrative withdrawal, those courses will be included in your AMCAS GPAs if your school included it in its GPA.

This seems slightly contradictory with the quote from p9...I think combined, I'd take them to mean "you can try to list it as a withdraw, but AMCAS can do whatever they feel like with it and you really have no recourse once they've ruled"

In your case, with the transcript still saying '(F)', and possibly one sent in that said a straight F, I think you're stuck with it.
If waiting 4-6wks would get rid of it, it'd be totally worth it; you'd still be an early app.
If, as the "other reasons" in your last post indicates, you're unlikely to get any further change, it's time to move on, accept that your AMCAS gpa will include it, and take comfort in the fact that adcoms really don't give a flying ferret about your high school performance.

 

[neonghost]

Then again, there is:

This seems slightly contradictory with the quote from p9...I think combined, I'd take them to mean "you can try to list it as a withdraw, but AMCAS can do whatever they feel like with it and you really have no recourse once they've ruled"

Wait you're totally right, they explicitly say they'll count it IF ITS INCLUDED IN MY SCHOOLS GPA AND ITS NOT

I am going to call them tomorrow. Hopefully I can explain the situation and if not I'll apply for an appeal.
If the grade and units are taken out of my transcript, it basically shows a strike out, I don't see why they would have to count it...

 

[mehc012]

Wait you're totally right, they explicitly say they'll count it IF ITS INCLUDED IN MY SCHOOLS GPA AND ITS NOT

I am going to call them tomorrow. Hopefully I can explain the situation and if not I'll apply for an appeal.
If the grade and units are taken out of my transcript, it basically shows a strike out, I don't see why they would have to count it...

That's a false inverse.

They're stating that if the course counts in your school's GPA, then it will count in your AMCAS gpa.
You are then assuming the inverse...that if it does not count in your school's GPA, then it will not count in your AMCAS gpa.

Not only is that a huge assumption, it's also pretty much belied by the statement from p9.

Again, they don't have to count it, but they likely will anyways unless it actually changes to a W, and you have to be ready for that as a possible outcome.

 

[neonghost]

Thanks everyone for your help.
In five minutes they tore down and ruined any shred of hope I had (do they get a bonus for that?)
So yeah, the F will count.

And if medical schools are actually going to reject me based on a mistake that I made 5 years ago in high school, well maybe I don't want to go there anyway.
/thread

 

[Mad Jack]

UPDATE:
AFTER A LOT OF ESCALATION UP THE LADDER OF SUPERVISORS, I FINALLY GOT THROUGH TO SOMEONE!
So, due to the fact that a withdrawl was not possible due to time and other reasons,
I got something called an academic renewal.
Basically, they take the class out of my GPA and it's considered withdrawn, and the units do not count, however the F is still there (but its in paranthesis which is their way of saying its taken out).

New question: how do I enter this into AMCAS and will they accept this as something I don't need to include for amcas gpa calculation?

It is still an F if it shoes in the transcript as an F. The way academic renewal works is that the F is still in your transcript but doesn't count for GPA calculations at that school. AMCAS does not recognize this as actually changing the course results, however, unless the school retroactively changes the grade to a W.

You need to chill though. One F from a CC course in high school will not affect your chances of getting into medical school, don't be neurotic.

 

[mehc012]

Thanks everyone for your help.
In five minutes they tore down and ruined any shred of hope I had (do they get a bonus for that?)
So yeah, the F will count.

And if medical schools are actually going to reject me based on a mistake that I made 5 years ago in high school, well maybe I don't want to go there anyway.
/thread

Again, med schools really dgaf about an F in high school. This won't be a deal-breaker for you. If you get rejected somewhere, it won't be over this.
I'm sure your cycle will be fine...you've made a good effort to change this, found that you can't do anything about it, and so it's time to shake it off and keep pushing forward! No point in stressing over something you can't affect.

Good luck, and I wish you a good cycle!

 

[mehc012]

I hope mimelim doesn't mind, but I found this quote particularly wonderful (and quite relevant to OP):

The secret to medical school admissions is that nobody actually cares about your undergraduate grades. We actually don't. The content that you learn in undergrad is largely if not totally irrelevant to your medical education. We care that you are a good student with a capacity to survive the further schooling you will undergo and hopefully thrive in that environment. The product that we get the day you show up to medical school is what we care about. Not who you were years ago. With that as context. Schools are very risk adverse and the single best way to figure out if someone is academically capable of taking on medical school is to look at their academic track record which is where the focus on GPA and MCAT come in. But, like with anything, you need context. Focusing on a single raw number (GPA) is harmful. If we are talking <3.2, that is one thing, but everything else, it is about context.

Prior to me advocating for someone, I want to see several strong semesters of coursework and a decent MCAT. I want to know you are a strong student when you show up. If you have an illness that doesn't allow you to be or if you are incapable of being a strong student regardless, medical school is not the right place for you and it does nobody any good to admit you. But, we understand that life gets in the way and there are often circumstances beyond people's control that stop them from being perfect all the time.

 

[tyrion_sansa]

I failed a community college course in high school. I put it down on my primary app. I was asked about it once and was still accepted to that medical school. I was also accepted to seven other medical schools. I was quite worried about this grade but it seems to have been disregarded.

 

[MrLogan13]

You'll have to report the grade. If the rest of your app looks good then a single F isn't going to kill you. There's no sense in worrying about this now, it's already there.