failing your first semester at a caribbean school

[chipwhitley]

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Chip, stop, just stop. You're displaying all of the traits that kept you out of US medical schools.

? I go to a US school.

 

[chipwhitley]

We aren't denying others the opportunity to make a living. We are denying them to practice medicine without a license. Which is the point of licensure and professions formed around the concept of licensure. It's a monopoly based on adequacy of training. There are no shortcuts to becoming a doctor, nor should there be. Nobody is "entitled" to be a doctor. It's absurdly selfish to suggest you should be allowed to bypass these legitimate hurdles at the potential expense of patients and the profession so that you can practice in an area in which you lack training.

But you don't actually need to complete a residency to get a license. In some states you only need a year. You also don't even have to have an MD to obtain a license to practice medicine (See independent DNPs). So how do you argue that licensing defines adequate training, since in your definition, adequate training requires completion of residency? Is the 1 year of residency required to obtain a license 'adequate training' in your opinion? Is the DNP curriculum adequate? Since both of these allow individuals to treat patients without supervision. If the purpose of licensing is to protect the public, why don't we require anyone who practices medicine in any capacity to complete the entire training pathway to get a license?

I'm not selfish to suggest that if one group of people (e.g. PAs) can obtain licenses, another group with even more education and training in the same discipline should be able to obtain the same license. That's just being fair. If you don't want anyone to take shortcuts to practicing medicine, shut down the DNP and PA licensing options first.

 

[chipwhitley]

If patients are harmed because of shoddy untrained MD work, that sullies the reputation of MDs as a whole. So that is about protecting the public, but I'm sure you realized that yourself too.

If you're really concerned about protecting the public, trying to stop the few dozen MDs who would avail themselves of this opportunity is not the most effective way to do it. Instead, I suggest you redirect your concern to the thousands of NPs out there that are grossly incompetent by your definition and pose the real, immediate threat.

 

[izotic]

Well, most of these schools matriculate many more people into first year than they expect to have rotation spots for two years later, so part of the business model requires them to weed out 50% or so over the first couple of years. So he's not wrong in that.

they weed out the incompetent bunch. not everyone who wants to be a doctor is going to be a doctor. just how not everyone that wants to become and actor will actually become an actor. Caribbean schools play the numbers and admit a large class particularly for their profit however it is up to the student to know their capabilities and match. you can't blame the school because you don't match

 

[chipwhitley]

Actually once you are a licensed "doctor" you are permitted under the state to give much broader advice than your sub specialty, so nice try, but you are still wrong. You don't get licensed in a specialty -- you are a doctor first, and boarded in a specialty later. Any surgeon could open an office and act as a GP totally legally. And do quite well because surgical patients are among the more complicated in terms of comorbidities. And this is still an unrelated red herring.

I thought this was an argument about what constitutes appropriate training, not what's legal. Legally speaking, a GP could offer surgical advice too. I'm sure you agree that's not a good idea. If legality is all that matters, why don't we stop training as soon as we get a license?

 

[chipwhitley]

they weed out the incompetent bunch. not everyone who wants to be a doctor is going to be a doctor. just how not everyone that wants to become and actor will actually become an actor. Caribbean schools play the numbers and admit a large class particularly for their profit however it is up to the student to know their capabilities and match. you can't blame the school because you don't match

That doesn't mean the carribean school is off the hook when they have developed a business model around high attrition rates. I find that to be a highly unethical business practice. If they want to weed people out, they should do it before they take their money. That's what US schools do.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

If you're really concerned about protecting the public, trying to stop the few dozen MDs who would avail themselves of this opportunity is not the most effective way to do it. Instead, I suggest you redirect your concern to the thousands of NPs out there that are grossly incompetent by your definition and pose the real, immediate threat.

As a physician, I am not part of nursing boards or regulations any more than anyone else in the general public. As a physician, I am part of the community that should police itself. As @Law2Doc has said multiple times that you just can't seem to get through your skull, just because NP/PAs are allowed to do it doesn't mean that its a good thing or that MDs should do it. Saying that MDs should not do it does not imply that NPs or PAs should do it.

 

[chipwhitley]

As a physician, I am not part of nursing boards or regulations any more than anyone else in the general public. As a physician, I am part of the community that should police itself. As @Law2Doc has said multiple times that you just can't seem to get through your skull, just because NP/PAs are allowed to do it doesn't mean that its a good thing or that MDs should do it. Saying that MDs should not do it does not imply that NPs or PAs should do it.

So I guess if you see a nurse at your hospital harming a patient you're gonna look the other way because you're not part of the nursing board and you only police other physicians. Who cares about the patients, right?

The point of government licensing is to keep incompetent people away from the public. If they're licensing incompetent people, then all of licensing is a joke and should be shut down.

 

[Rekt]

So I guess if you see a nurse at your hospital harming a patient you're gonna look the other way because you're not part of the nursing board and you only police other physicians. Who cares about the patients, right?

The point of government licensing is to keep incompetent people away from the public. If they're licensing incompetent people, then all of licensing is a joke and should be shut down.

God. This is so damn dumb it's unreal

 

[Goro]

Ooops, sorry about! But quit arguing with gyngyn!

? I go to a US school.

 

[Law2Doc]

So I guess if you see a nurse at your hospital harming a patient you're gonna look the other way because you're not part of the nursing board and you only police other physicians. Who cares about the patients, right?

The point of government licensing is to keep incompetent people away from the public. If they're licensing incompetent people, then all of licensing is a joke and should be shut down.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. The medical profession polices itself and has determined what training people should have to be competent to practice in various specialties. There's also the state government which determines the minimum requirement for licensure to work as a GP which for US grads is usually an intern year and for foreign grads usually a year or two beyond that. So this latter is the absolute bare minimum that someone in the medical profession should have to work, and in fact a specialty board is what anyone who seeks to do more than basic GP stuff really needs to have. The proposals in these underserved states don't understand this concept and so they would allow people to provide medical services without even attaining the bare minimum (which BTW is less than what the average doctor needs to have to get a job in most places these days). As a profession we should oppose people practicing in our field having not achieved the minimum, both because we know exactly how little they know, and because they are going to have MD/DO on their coats and the public will assume they have the minimum requisite knowledge. There are no short cuts and should not be.
I think until you get through intern year you have no real sense of how little you know. Some of us with many years of training beyond that often wish we had a bit more training. To argue that someone who had a few med student rotations is adequately qualified might make sense coming from a dumb politician who doesn't know any better, but should be pretty embarrassing coming from anyone on this board.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So I guess if you see a nurse at your hospital harming a patient you're gonna look the other way because you're not part of the nursing board and you only police other physicians. Who cares about the patients, right?

The point of government licensing is to keep incompetent people away from the public. If they're licensing incompetent people, then all of licensing is a joke and should be shut down.

 

[izotic]

That doesn't mean the carribean school is off the hook when they have developed a business model around high attrition rates. I find that to be a highly unethical business practice. If they want to weed people out, they should do it before they take their money. That's what US schools do.

okay let's blame an institution for giving us an opportunity to become a physician in the US when the student is not capable of handling the work load. i don't understand your argument. Whether their business model is based on profit or not you as a student are liable for your failure/success. You can't go off on the world thinking its everyones fault but yours. Thats my fair opinion.

 

[WingedOx]

ok time for some real talk.

? I go to a US school.

Still, based on your posting history, you've said you've reached M4 and weren't applying to residency for a number of reasons. That was in 2014. As far as I or anyone else can tell, you haven't made any sort of plan to move on with your medical training, (correct me if I'm wrong)

So what exactly are you doing here? The vast majority of your posts are just you starting dumb arguments with experienced posters like L2D about a profession that you're no longer choosing to pursue or a career that you've said you could never be happy partaking in. It's like watching a girl cope with coming off a bad breakup by going on The Bachelor and getting shiatfaced. You've alluded to mental health issues before in the past... do you REALLY think constantly posting rants and raves about the profession here is in any way helpful to yourself?

You were apparently capable of getting into a US med school. You're apparently far smarter than your posts would indicate.

 

[thiaeyemd]

Absolutely...as someone associated with residency training in the past as an attending...I would say it makes things very hard..you can still make it for sure but need to destroy USMLE step I , II, III. Remember the caribbean schools are like the for profit schools in the US in other field. They don't care what happens after you graduate as long as they get your 50K per semester etc... It is a business.

 

[W19]

Wow... I thought @chipwhitley was a MS2 student at Nova.

 

[TBV]

I keep unwatching this thread and coming back hoping we're back piling on Caribs but no it's much more annoying than that

 

[atomi]

To argue that someone who had a few med student rotations is adequately qualified might make sense coming from a dumb politician who doesn't know any better, but should be pretty embarrassing coming from anyone on this board.

Hey look, I agree with you on something.

 

[neutroleukopenic]

Thats a tough one. You could work hard kill steps and get into a nice residency program. Or you could cut your losses and head home. That decision will come from you

 

[deleted731525]

okay let's blame an institution for giving us an opportunity to become a physician in the US when the student is not capable of handling the work load. i don't understand your argument. Whether their business model is based on profit or not you as a student are liable for your failure/success. You can't go off on the world thinking its everyones fault but yours. Thats my fair opinion.

Its more complicated than that. Basically these schools are encouraging a portion of their students to make very poor bets on themselves with US taxpayer money. You want to argue that its a not terrible option for the 3.5/28+ that cant get into any US school for whatever reason, and knows the risk? Fine, that isnt as terrible a bet coming from the big 4 as many people think. And in many cases that person will probably graduate, match an undesirable residency(probably fulfilling an underserved need) and pay back their loans.

However even SGU/Ross accept a significant number of bad bets, people who havent demonstrated the potential for success in medical school. They encourage these people, and these people fund the overpriced tuition with taxpayer funds. When they fail out or dont match they are likely either going to default or go on IBR for life. Either way the money isnt paid back and the student is screwed. A loss for the student, a loss for the taxpayer but a big win for the school. And of course there are a ton of non big 4 schools in the caribbean where the entire class is likely to be in this category.

 

[the argus]

I keep unwatching this thread and coming back hoping we're back piling on Caribs but no it's much more annoying than that

Wow, you must have a super fulfilling life! How about you get back to playing video games and having what I'm sure are very frequent and extremely vigorous masturbation sessions.

 

[Psai]

Wow, you must have a super fulfilling life! How about you get back to playing video games and having what I'm sure are very frequent and extremely vigorous masturbation sessions.

I'm not seeing the problem here

 

[TBV]

Wow, you must have a super fulfilling life! How about you get back to playing video games and having what I'm sure are very frequent and extremely vigorous masturbation sessions.

Thank you for your contribution, I would be happy to send you a picture so you don't have to think so hard while you imagine me 'bate? But in all seriousness you pick SDN to tell someone they don't have a fulfilling life? You're right I'll head back to my job at McDs

 

[the argus]

Thank you for your contribution, I would be happy to send you a picture so you don't have to think so hard while you imagine me 'bate? But in all seriousness you pick SDN to tell someone they don't have a fulfilling life? You're right I'll head back to my job at McDs

I pick people who self-admittently troll SDN looking for threads to trash groups of people they don't know

I'm not seeing the problem here

That's not surprising

 

[Law2Doc]

Its more complicated than that. Basically these schools are encouraging a portion of their students to make very poor bets on themselves with US taxpayer money. You want to argue that its a not terrible option for the 3.5/28+ that cant get into any US school for whatever reason, and knows the risk? Fine, that isnt as terrible a bet coming from the big 4 as many people think. And in many cases that person will probably graduate, match an undesirable residency(probably fulfilling an underserved need) and pay back their loans.

However even SGU/Ross accept a significant number of bad bets, people who havent demonstrated the potential for success in medical school. They encourage these people, and these people fund the overpriced tuition with taxpayer funds. When they fail out or dont match they are likely either going to default or go on IBR for life. Either way the money isnt paid back and the student is screwed. A loss for the student, a loss for the taxpayer but a big win for the school. And of course there are a ton of non big 4 schools in the caribbean where the entire class is likely to be in this category.

It's even more insidious than that. Yes they make bad bets. But that's sort of irrelevant to the business model. Some of these schools matriculate eg 800 people knowing they would have trouble accommodating 400 of them for rotations two years later. So they don't really care if these people can turn things around or not -- half won't get rotations by design. So it's not really a work hard and you will succeed. It's more, if you aren't in the top X percent of this class you lose your $. And that's true even if a lot of the class can turn things around. Now sure, accepting anyone with a college degree and a working credit card helps, but that doesn't mean that you aren't set up to fail in the case where you do might fairly well but a bunch of people manage to do slightly better. And again this is just to survive attrition -- it's a bad numbers game again at the Step and residency allocation stages.

 

[TBV]

I pick people who self-admittently troll SDN looking for threads to trash groups of people they don't know

That's not surprising

Source?