failing your first semester at a caribbean school

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jordansetron said:
Dentistry, from my point of view, is waaaayyyyy better a career in terms of compensation and job satisfaction than medicine.
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Isn't the average dentist salary like 150k? Of course you have the outliers that are working in Manhattan making 300k but that's not the norm.
 
psychMDhopefully said:
Isn't the average dentist salary like 150k? Of course you have the outliers that are working in Manhattan making 300k but that's not the norm.
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yes. which isnt that much below your average primary care doctor, but requires significantly less schooling and not nearly as many working hours. Much fewer malpractice worries and relatively no hospital bureaucracy to deal with. Best job in health care right now IMO
 
I can think of better ways to spend 50 grand.
 
doc-Oc said:
I am aiming for FM, thank you for your constructive reply 🙂 .
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Your only realistic hope of becoming a licensed physician in the US:

1. Drop out of your Carib school immediately
1a. Seriously, don't get further into debt chasing the purple dragon
2. Move back to US and get a job
3. Get your act together
4. Correct whatever deficiencies led you to the Carib in the first place
5. Go to DO school

Perhaps not what you want to hear, but any domestic program will be invested in your success. By contrast, every offshore program's business model relies upon some measure of attrition prior to M3.
 
The original question is straightforward and somewhat ridiculous. I'm sure the OP understands that a failure will weaken a residency application. If you're looking for sugarcoated answers, SDN isn't the place.

My advice: open and honest reflection. Why did you fail your first semester? Were there extenuating circumstances that can be fixed? Did you have a pattern of failing or not performing strongly as an undergrad in the US? If it's a pattern, why do you think you can turn it around now?

The hardest thing to do is to look ourselves in the mirror and critically appraise our situations. Sometimes you need help from outside sources that know you well. You have no room for error left. If you think you can correct your errors and you have strong reason to believe you can turn your performance around, then so be it. But unless you turn it around dramatically, I'd advise - like the others - to consider getting out before the financial burden becomes truly catastrophic. Unless your parents are footing the bill, four years of school without a residency position is a life-changing burden.
 
Med Ed said:
Your only realistic hope of becoming a licensed physician in the US:

1. Drop out of your Carib school immediately
1a. Seriously, don't get further into debt chasing the purple dragon
2. Move back to US and get a job
3. Get your act together
4. Correct whatever deficiencies led you to the Carib in the first place
5. Go to DO school

Perhaps not what you want to hear, but any domestic program will be invested in your success. By contrast, every offshore program's business model relies upon some measure of attrition prior to M3.
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I think #5 should be "Apply" to DO school. I dont think OP has a great shot at getting in though after failing 1st semester at a Caribbean school.

Is it worth a shot? IMO no, chances are pretty bad.

If OP wants to be a healthcare provider, maybe they could try for that new DMS degree or be a PA.
 
jordansetron said:
I think #5 should be "Apply" to DO school. I dont think OP has a great shot at getting in though after failing 1st semester at a Caribbean school.

Is it worth a shot? IMO no, chances are pretty bad.

If OP wants to be a healthcare provider, maybe they could try for that new DMS degree or be a PA.
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The DMS degree is for PAs.

#5 is predicated on the successful completion of #3 and #4, which will require several years of effort and maturation, and results are obviously not guaranteed.
 
Med Ed said:
The DMS degree is for PAs.

#5 is predicated on the successful completion of #3 and #4, which will require several years of effort and maturation, and results are obviously not guaranteed.
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You are correct! DMS is after PA school.
 
OP would be reject bait my school. We have a distaste for Carib retreads.


jordansetron said:
I think #5 should be "Apply" to DO school. I dont think OP has a great shot at getting in though after failing 1st semester at a Caribbean school.

Is it worth a shot? IMO no, chances are pretty bad.

If OP wants to be a healthcare provider, maybe they could try for that new DMS degree or be a PA.
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LLCoolK said:
If those students were smart, they would have applied to DO and have multiple acceptances and have nearly 100% chance of matching.
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That's the wrong attitude to have. Your race/ethnicity should not preclude you from a spot at an M.D. school. The entire concept of "overrepresented" is an utter abomination and the people who invented it (no doubt ugly white sociology hacks) should be thrown in a dungeon.
 
cbrons said:
That's the wrong attitude to have. Your race/ethnicity should not preclude you from a spot at an M.D. school. The entire concept of "overrepresented" is an utter abomination and the people who invented it (no doubt ugly white sociology hacks) should be thrown in a dungeon.
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Of course in reality, your race doesn't actually preclude you from a spot in a medical school, but let's not stop this already crappy thread from devolving into something even dumber.
 
Plan A: You can continue OP, but you will have do well for now and on...or else you will be 300k in the red with nothing to show for it...

Plan B: You can continue and manage to pass step 1&2, then become an associate physician (AP) in Missouri...🙁


I would drop out if I were in your situation and try DPM or PharmD.
 
At my school we have yet to see someone so diligent as an applicant. The same holds true for someone who has failed out of a DO or MD school.

I surmise that the need for instant gratification, maybe added parental pressure, and the magic thinking of "well, I'll just try again" are part of a package of deficits that made these people fail out in the first place.




Med Ed said:
I have no doubt, but with a few years of work history, improved ECs, and a better MCAT, the OP could go the route of reinvention narrative and someone might bite.
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W19 said:
Plan A: You can continue OP, but you will have do well for now and on...or else you will be 300k in the red with nothing to show for it...

Plan B: You can continue and manage to pass step 1&2, then become an associate physician (AP) in Missouri...🙁


I would drop out if I were in your situation and try DPM or PharmD.
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That Missouri law of "AP" may be modified to be only for LCME or COCA accredited program graduates. That's at least the push from some people involved in it. That's if it even comes in effect practically (I believe they have yet to award an AP license, but I haven't really been following it).

EDIT: Also it seems to require proof of medical licensure for foreign graduates in the country where the degree was attained. That may preclude a lot of Carib graduates because many can't become licensed in said island.
 
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hallowmann said:
...That may preclude a lot of Carib graduates because many can't become licensed in said island.
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I would be surprised if the offshore med schools couldn't work out an arrangement with their local licensing board. The local governments have a vested interest in keeping these schools viable.
 
hallowmann said:
That Missouri law of "AP" may be modified to be only for LCME or COCA accredited program graduates. That's at least the push from some people involved in it. That's if it even comes in effect practically (I believe they have yet to award an AP license, but I haven't really been following it).

EDIT: Also it seems to require proof of medical licensure for foreign graduates in the country where the degree was attained. That may preclude a lot of Carib graduates because many can't become licensed in said island.
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I heard Washington state is trying to come up with something similar... Once a state implements this idea flawlessly, I can see more states follow suit... I can't wait to see the complaint coming from ANA and APA. I already saw a glimpse of that in one of the PA websites... They are already arguing that these AP will lower standard of care... How ironic that these people are practicing medicine (with no supervision in most cases) after completing a 2-year program and pass only one licensing exam, and yet they are against med students practicing medicine under DIRECT supervision of a licensed MD/DO even if these students complete a 4-year program and pass 3 licensing exams...
 
W19 said:
... I can't wait to see the complaint coming from ANA and APA. I already saw a glimpse of that in one of the PA websites... They are already arguing that these AP will lower standard of care... How ironic that these people are practicing medicine (with no supervision in most cases) after completing a 2-year program and pass only one licensing exam, and yet they are against med students practicing medicine...
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It's a race to the bottom and they don't want to give up their healthy lead. They realize their only advantage is they can work cheap because they don't waste all that time with lengthy residency and just go straight to putting on a white coat and practicing. If med school grads, people with MD/DO on their coats can work this cheaply too, they are done. But it will be horrible for medicine and shouldn't happen. It's one thing if a DNP practices poorly and screws up. That doesn't reflect on me. But when Bob Smith MD screws up it looks like a "doctor" screwed up, even though this guy isn't residency trained or boarded. In the public eye that reflects badly on all doctors, not just APs because the public doesn't know the difference. So this is something all trained doctors should adamantly oppose.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's a race to the bottom and they don't want to give up their healthy lead. They realize their only advantage is they can work cheap because they don't waste all that time with lengthy residency and just go straight to putting on a white coat and practicing. If med school grads, people with MD/DO on their coats can work this cheaply too, they are done. But it will be horrible for medicine and shouldn't happen. It's one thing if a DNP practices poorly and screws up. That doesn't reflect on me. But when Bob Smith MD screws up it looks like a "doctor" screwed up, even though this guy isn't residency trained or boarded. In the public eye that reflects badly on all doctors, not just APs because the public doesn't know the difference. So this is something all trained doctors should adamantly oppose.
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I agree it's a race to the bottom. To be honest, I am not a 100% keen on that AP law in MO and WA. But I am just frustrated with our leaders because they have failed to control encroachment of other healthcare professionals into MD/DO territory... Psychologists have prescribing privilege in some states.... PharmD can prescribe birth control in CA... ND have some prescriptive authority in OR and WA... NP/PA job duties are literally indistinguishable to PCP in most states... even DC want to fill in the role of PCP now... This is insane!

Why can't our leaders come up with solutions to stop this nonsense?
 
W19 said:
I agree it's a race to the bottom. To be honest, I am not a 100% keen on that AP law in MO and WA. But I am just frustrated the way our leaders have failed to control encroachment of other healthcare professionals into MD/DO territory... Psychologists have prescribing privilege in some states.... PharmD can prescribe birth control in CA... ND have some prescriptive authority in OR and WA... NP/PA job duties are literally indistinguishable to PCP in most states... even DC want to fill in the role of PCP now... This is insane!

Why can't our leader come up with solutions to stop this nonsense?
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Simple, politicians represent the majority. In other words patients paying too much for healthcare. Not doctors. So the goal is to provide minimal cheap healthcare for everyone. Not to protect doctors from encroachment. Healthcare costs are too high and this is a way to let patients see somebody in a white coat, all at pennies on the dollar. If you don't like it, don't hope any "leader" is going to bail you out.

Your only prayer is to let the public know how much more training doctors really have as compared to these clowns, and maybe assemble some hard evidence on morbidity and mortality of patients seeing untrained people. This is what the talking heads on conservative news shows should be screaming about, because it frankly would have more traction with the public than just disliking Obamacare because...
 
Law2Doc said:
It's a race to the bottom and they don't want to give up their healthy lead. They realize their only advantage is they can work cheap because they don't waste all that time with lengthy residency and just go straight to putting on a white coat and practicing. If med school grads, people with MD/DO on their coats can work this cheaply too, they are done. But it will be horrible for medicine and shouldn't happen. It's one thing if a DNP practices poorly and screws up. That doesn't reflect on me. But when Bob Smith MD screws up it looks like a "doctor" screwed up, even though this guy isn't residency trained or boarded. In the public eye that reflects badly on all doctors, not just APs because the public doesn't know the difference. So this is something all trained doctors should adamantly oppose.
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Honestly, I don't think allowing a few MD/DOs to practice without residency is going to hurt their lead because the vast majority of MD/DOs are still going to do residency and specialize in something because that's where the money is. All this would do is offer an option for MD/DOs who didn't match and are reapplying or the very few who will chose to forgo the match an option to use their degree to make an income. If they're working under proper supervision, I don't think there would be an issue of them screwing up to the degree that doctors' reputations are tarnished. They're basically going to be perpetual interns. The law doesn't allow for independent practice.
 
chipwhitley said:
...If they're working under proper supervision, I don't think there would be an issue of them screwing up to the degree that doctors' reputations are tarnished. They're basically going to be perpetual interns. The law doesn't allow for independent practice.
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If you've seen the plans proposed, they will NOT be "working under proper supervision" -- most have them initially supervised for a short period and then very little direct oversight thereafter. So "independent practice" is a very relative term here. If we aren't talking about daily supervision (which these plans don't, after an initial period, it's much more independent than an intern. The bigger problem though is you don't know anything coming out of med school -- all the training for a doctor happens in residency, but they have the title of MD, so it reflects badly on doctors when they screw up.
 
Law2Doc said:
. The bigger problem though is you don't know anything coming out of med school -- all the training for a doctor happens in residency, but they have the title of MD, so it reflects badly on doctors when they screw up.
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So let me get this straight - PAs take watered down versions of med student courses and do rotations where they essentially function the same as MS3s. When they graduate they apparently know enough to practice with limited supervision (supervising doctor doesn't even have to be in the same physical location). Yet you're telling me that MDs who have taken more rigorous courses, passed 2 more board exams, and done more rotations know "nothing"? Is there some sort of magic going on in PA school allowing them to do more with less? Or do you think PAs are all grossly incompetent?
 
chipwhitley said:
So let me get this straight - PAs take watered down versions of med student courses and do rotations where they essentially function the same as MS3s. When they graduate they apparently know enough to practice with limited supervision (supervising doctor doesn't even have to be in the same physical location). Yet you're telling me that MDs who have taken more courses and done more rotations know "nothing"? Is there some sort of magic going on in PA school allowing them to do more with less?
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No, I'm saying both know nothing. But when the PA screws up it doesn't reflect badly on "doctors" the same way as when an untrained MD screws up, which is why this matters to me more.
 
Law2Doc said:
No, I'm saying both know nothing. But when the PA screws up it doesn't reflect badly on "doctors" the same way as when an untrained MD screws up, which is why this matters to me more.
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Except that PAs have been around for quite some time now and they are not screwing up any more than doctors and their reputation is fine. So your concerns about MDs (a better trained group) functioning as PAs are unfounded.
 
chipwhitley said:
Except that PAs have been around for quite some time now and they are not screwing up any more tham doctors and their reputation is fine. So your concerns about MDs (a better trained group) fumcioning as PAs are unfounded.
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Who says they haven't been screwing up? If you google "physicians assistant" and "lawsuit" you'll find a number of cases. And for every case you see there are others that got settled or didn't ever get filed. And that's despite cherry picking the easier cases and sending the rest on to "real doctors". And that's expected-- there will be errors in every healthcare field. But again, you minimize errors with training and a PAs screw up won't sully MY profession.
 
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Law2Doc said:
Who says they haven't been screwing up? If you google "physicians assistant" and "lawsuit" you'll find a number of cases. And for every case you see there are others that got settled or didn't ever get filed. And that's despite cherry picking the easier cases and sending the rest on to "real doctors". And that's expected-- there will be errors in every healthcare field. But again, you minimize errors with training and a PAs screw up won't sully MY profession.
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Have you tried googling "physician" and "lawsuit"? Seems like the extra years of training have diminishing returns in terms of protection from errors.

Anyway, I'll let the PAs on here defend their own profession.
 
chipwhitley said:
Have you tried googling "physician" and "lawsuit"? Seems like the extra years of training have diminishing returns in terms of protection from errors.

Anyway, I'll let the PAs on here defend their own profession.
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physicians take all the high acuity cases. you don't have PAs managing those. with those there is absolutely a higher risk of lawsuit. delivering a baby properly is just a little bit riskier than taking blood pressures properly.
 
chipwhitley said:
Have you tried googling "physician" and "lawsuit"? Seems like the extra years of training have diminishing returns in terms of protection from errors.

Anyway, I'll let the PAs on here defend their own profession.
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Doctors have been around longer than PAs, are deeper pockets, and don't get to cherry pick the easier cases, so it's expected you'll find more lawsuits. Did you really need google to know that doctors get sued? That wasn't your point above though -- you said PAs weren't screwing up, which isn't the case. They are, but it doesn't reflect on my degree.
 
Law2Doc said:
Doctors have been around longer than PAs, are deeper pockets, and don't get to cherry pick the easier cases, so it's expected you'll find more lawsuits. Did you really need google to know that doctors get sued? That wasn't your point above though -- you said PAs weren't screwing up, which isn't the case. They are, but it doesn't reflect on my degree.
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Well I didn't think you were going to take my words literally. Of course they screw up sometimes. So does everyone. No one's perfect, especially in medicine, which is not an exact science by any means. But if they really "know nothing", you'd expect them to be completely incompetent, which they are not.

Your argument is quite selfish, by the way. You don't want certain people (likely a very small number) to be allowed to get a job because you think it will make you look bad. Well, lots of MDs are already making your degree look bad. You just need to turn on the news - there's a screwup doc on there almost every day. Or just switch over to Dr. Oz and see what nonsense he's peddling. Maybe you should bank on your reputation as a doctor rather than what set of letters are after your name.
 
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PL198 said:
physicians take all the high acuity cases. you don't have PAs managing those. with those there is absolutely a higher risk of lawsuit. delivering a baby properly is just a little bit riskier than taking blood pressures properly.
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I think PAs do a bit more than taking blood pressures. I wonder if any of you bashing PAs here have the guts to tell a PA in real life that they're not competent.
 
chipwhitley said:
Well I didn't think you were going to take my words literally. Of course they screw up sometimes. So does everyone. No one's perfect, especially in medicine, which is not an exact science by any means. But if they really "know nothing", you'd expect them to be completely incompetent, which they are not.

Your argument is quite selfish, by the way. You don't want certain people (likely a very small number) to be allowed to get a job because you think it will make you look bad. Well, lots of MDs are already making your degree look bad. You just need to turn on the news - there's a screwup doc on there almost every day. Or just switch over to Dr. Oz and see what nonsense he's peddling. Maybe you should bank on your reputation as a doctor rather than what set of letters are after your name.
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First, in your first paragraph it's you who are taking things too literal with regards to "know nothing".

Second, it's not selfish to not want to unleash untrained med school grads onto the public. I'd rather PAs and NPs don't either, but that's not my profession, and bears no reflection on me so I don't really have the same dog in that fight.

Next, I think Dr Oz should be professionally sanctioned for some of the lies he's said on the air, but that really has little to do with this argument. He's committing fraud, not malpractice, so that's a different issue altogether. To my knowledge he's gone through residency and is board certified, so lack of training is not the issue here. It's a different problem for the profession to figure out, and I hope they do, but it's unrelated -- a red herring -- nobody ever said medicine had only one issue to deal with.

There are lots of medical mistakes out there but that's partly a function of a ton of doctors doing a ton of volume. If you see 1000 patients and are perfect 98% of the time you are screwing up on twenty. So the error rate is not all that high if you consider the number of patients doctors see and the number of comorbidities they deal with, remembering that they don't get to pawn off the more complicated patients like mid levels can. All you can do as a profession is make sure people are appropriately trained, and strive to do better. What you don't do is shrug and say "we already screw up a lot so what's a little more?" Which again is my whole point -- if you release people out into practice you know are NOT adequately trained, these numbers will go up and it reflects badly on the field.
 
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chipwhitley said:
I think PAs do a bit more than taking blood pressures. I wonder if any of you bashing PAs here have the guts to tell a PA in real life that they're not competent.
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It has nothing to do with competency. it's what they're trained for. do you deny physicians deal with higher acuity? thats literally all PAs do in the ED is the lower acuity cases.

it's hard to screw up sewing close a lac or an I&D. conversely managing a code or handling possible MIs is done by physicians for a reason
 
chipwhitley said:
Isn't this what shady carribean schools do? They take your money and fail you so they don't have to worry about matching you later on but get to keep their money. Happened to a friend of mine.
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I'm sure they don't fail you so you don't get matched. maybe your friend wasn't pulling his weight... think about that
 
izotic said:
I'm sure they don't fail you so you don't get matched. maybe your friend wasn't pulling his weight... think about that
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Well, most of these schools matriculate many more people into first year than they expect to have rotation spots for two years later, so part of the business model requires them to weed out 50% or so over the first couple of years. So he's not wrong in that.
 
Law2Doc said:
Second, it's not selfish to not want to unleash untrained med school grads onto the public. I'd rather PAs and NPs don't either, but that's not my profession, and bears no reflection on me so I don't really have the same dog in that fight.
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You weren't talking about protecting the public, though, you were talking about your fear that those grads would be sullying your own reputation as an MD. I would consider that selfish.
 
PL198 said:
It has nothing to do with competency. it's what they're trained for. do you deny physicians deal with higher acuity? thats literally all PAs do in the ED is the lower acuity cases.

it's hard to screw up sewing close a lac or an I&D. conversely managing a code or handling possible MIs is done by physicians for a reason
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So do you agree that a person who has an MD is qualified enough to do those simple tasks without going through an entire residency?
 
Law2Doc said:
There are lots of medical mistakes out there but that's partly a function of a ton of doctors doing a ton of volume. If you see 1000 patients and are perfect 98% of the time you are screwing up on twenty. So the error rate is not all that high if you consider the number of patients doctors see and the number of comorbidities they deal with, remembering that they don't get to pawn off the more complicated patients like mid levels can. All you can do as a profession is make sure people are appropriately trained, and strive to do better. What you don't do is shrug and say "we already screw up a lot so what's a little more?" Which again is my whole point -- if you release people out into practice you know are NOT adequately trained, these numbers will go up and it reflects badly on the field.
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Actually docs make plenty of mistakes because they go beyond their training. If an internist screws up a complicated cardiac case, does that make cardiologists look bad, even though they both possess MDs? Of course not, because they're not doing the same job. MDs range from pathologists to psychiatrists to surgeons. In the same way, associate physicians are not doing the same job as board certified doctors. If they practice under proper supervision, and limit themselves to what they can handle, I don't see any issue.
 
Law2Doc said:
Well, most of these schools matriculate many more people into first year than they expect to have rotation spots for two years later, so part of the business model requires them to weed out 50% or so over the first couple of years. So he's not wrong in that.
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I think these statements are exaggerated at least for the reputable carib schools. I went to SGU and I can say that 20% at most of the starting class term 1 didn't make it to residency. I would say 10% of these dropped right away in term 1. It goes without say that lowering admission standards to something that is demanding = higher failure rate. It isn't like the school is making an effort to fail people in fear and/or hopes of not having rotation spots. Ross and SGU are money machines and there is no shortage of US hospitals willing to accept $$ to allow students to rotate.

The step 1 is the great equalizer...
 
Law2Doc said:
Next, I think Dr Oz should be professionally sanctioned for some of the lies he's said on the air, but that really has little to do with this argument. He's committing fraud, not malpractice, so that's a different issue altogether. To my knowledge he's gone through residency and is board certified, so lack of training is not the issue here. It's a different problem for the profession to figure out, and I hope they do, but it's unrelated -- a red herring -- nobody ever said medicine had only one issue to deal with.
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Well he's also a surgeon and he gives out advice on non-surgical issues, which he is not trained for (at least in terms of residency), so I think you could argue it is a lack of training as well, if you wanted to make that argument.
 
chipwhitley said:
You weren't talking about protecting the public, though, you were talking about your fear that those grads would be sullying your own reputation as an MD. I would consider that selfish. And to your point about Dr. Oz, the general public doesn't know the difference between malpractice or fraud or anything else. If any MD misbehaves in any way, that could hurt your reputation as an MD. The way to protect yourself is to build up your own reputation as a physician. It's not to deny others the ability to make a living.
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That my interests and the public interests are aligned just means I'm on the correct side. It's only really selfish if I am looking out for me at the expense of the greater good. I'm not. I want what's good for me, the profession and the patients. Selfish is the person who wants to practice medicine without training at the expense of the patients and profession.

Second, I already explained why Dr Oz is an unrelated ussue, a red herring. There are many things to fix in medicine but pointing to fraud as a distractor for malpractice is the same as trying to distract firemen from a fire by pointing out a cat in a tree. One unrelated problem after another, don't try to mix them into the same scenario -- they aren't.

Third, it's well and nice to say you can protect your name by building up your own reputation. But that's bogus. We are joined together at the hip in a profession, and the product we offer up as a "doctor" reflects on all of us. So if some med school grads are not adequately trained, and commit malpractice because of it, that goes out to the public as "doctors" are committing medical errors. The public doesn't know how much people train, and can't parse the fully trained attending from the untrained med school grad -- they see an MD in a white coat and think "doctor". So the medical community cannot sit by an accept this happily.

We aren't denying others the opportunity to make a living. We are denying them to practice medicine without a license. Which is the point of licensure and professions formed around the concept of licensure. It's a monopoly based on adequacy of training. There are no shortcuts to becoming a doctor, nor should there be. Nobody is "entitled" to be a doctor. It's absurdly selfish to suggest you should be allowed to bypass these legitimate hurdles at the potential expense of patients and the profession so that you can practice in an area in which you lack training.
 
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chipwhitley said:
Well he's also a surgeon and he gives out advice on non-surgical issues, which he is not trained for (at least in terms of residency), so I think you could argue it is a lack of training as well, if you wanted to make that argument.
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Actually once you are a licensed "doctor" you are permitted under the state to give much broader advice than your sub specialty, so nice try, but you are still wrong. You don't get licensed in a specialty -- you are a doctor first, and boarded in a specialty later. Any surgeon could open an office and act as a GP totally legally. And do quite well because surgical patients are among the more complicated in terms of comorbidities. And this is still an unrelated red herring.
 
chipwhitley said:
You weren't talking about protecting the public, though, you were talking about your fear that those grads would be sullying your own reputation as an MD. I would consider that selfish.
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If patients are harmed because of shoddy untrained MD work, that sullies the reputation of MDs as a whole. So that is about protecting the public, but I'm sure you realized that yourself too.
 
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