Failure Policies

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jmd13

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Hey everyone,

So at my school there are about a million different ways to get dismissed from the program... and consequently there is a major fear of failure and high stress levels among the students at all times. Between my cohort and the other 2 cohorts here, we have lost SEVERAL students. The requirements just seem kind of extreme and I'm wondering if this is normal? What are the policies at other schools regarding failing? Thanks!
 
It will be easier to help you determine how extreme your school really is if you describe there specific policies for us.
 
Yes, PT school is hard. It is no joke. And yes, a lot is expected of you. We lost 4 students out of my cohort and gained 3 from the cohort before (of people who failed and had to retake). You're getting a doctorate, it is supposed to be challenging and can be high-stress. But, if you discipline yourself, you will (and can) get through it! The standards are high, but they can be met!
 
^Agreed. But I also tend to think there may be some decent variability from school to school as far as number, flexibility and enforcement of failure policies. My school for example required a 3.0 GPA and C+ (75.5%) or higher counted as 2.5 while 85.5% or higher counted as 3.5 so theoretically you could stock up on B+ grades first few semesters and last academic semester get all Cs and still pass with a cumulative above a 3.0. Where as in other programs I have heard if you get more than 1 C grade in a class you fail.
 
jmd13 said:
Hey everyone,

So at my school there are about a million different ways to get dismissed from the program... and consequently there is a major fear of failure and high stress levels among the students at all times. Between my cohort and the other 2 cohorts here, we have lost SEVERAL students. The requirements just seem kind of extreme and I'm wondering if this is normal? What are the policies at other schools regarding failing? Thanks!
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I asked about attrition rates here awhile back:


I'm not sure what you mean by "several", but if you've lost less than 10% per cohort, that doesn't seem to be an outlier (at least that's what I gathered from the discussion above).

For my school you need a 3.0 cumulative and must get at least a C in every class. If you fail a practical, you retake it. If you fail the retake you are booted from the program. You can re-apply after that.
 
PTMattI said:
^Agreed. But I also tend to think there may be some decent variability from school to school as far as number, flexibility and enforcement of failure policies.
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Oh absolutely. My school had different benchmarks depending on the year and type of class. Bottom line- you better get an 80% on everything.
 
PTMattI said:
Where as in other programs I have heard if you get more than 1 C grade in a class you fail.
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This is how my program is. B- (which is an 80%) is the lowest grade that is allowed or else you get put on academic probation. Another grade less than B- the next semester and your out. And cGPA has to stay above 3.0 (which is a B or 83% average). And if you fail a final, you fail the class, no matter what your actual grade. And if you fail a practical or competency check off you get two more attempts to do it right. Then it's three strikes your out. I'm surprised how many C's a lot of programs allow, as mine essentially allows 1. But very few people actual fail out of the school, which I think is because they have exceptionally student-centered faculty and I really think they do try to select high-caliber students. So sometimes schools with harsh grading policies may actually have less fail-outs than schools with more lax policies. But the point is, like you said, that there is a large degree of variability school-to-school in this area.

Still interested to hear what the OP's school policies are that are so concerning. And we do need to know what percentage of the class has actually failed to get an idea if it is unreasonable or not.
 
It's really hard to judge based on grades alone. At my school you need a C or higher to pass a class. But getting a C is a normal grade. One teacher told us they like to see their median grades fall right near 82% so given that, a significant majority of the class will earn a C in a given course. Some of our classes are further scaled so in anatomy a C starts at a 65%. Average student will score in the mid 70s in that class. Either way, a C- is failing and you can only fail 1 class. If you fail 2, you are out. You also have to pass the practicals (3 chances). You don't have to pass a final per se as long as you pass the class. But being our grades are only composed of a few tests, that would be hard to pull off. We've lost 2 people so far in the first semester and have quite a few who were right on the line. I hope everyone made it through second semester. Basically it's hard to know from the outside or from reading policies how much it takes to fail.
 
My school does not do any grade adjustments outside of dropping the questions that >65-70% of the class gets wrong. That usually ends up being 2-3 out of 50-60 questions. No curve, we don't compete with one another. I like it that way. If your GPA drops below a 3.0, you're on academic probation and required to bring it up by the next semester. If not, you will have to sit through an academic board. You need an average of >=75% to pass every course, >=80% on practicals. <75% = F; 75-79 = C- 1.67 GPA. Or you will sit through the academic board. You are given 3 additional attempts on practicals throughout the 3 year curriculum. If you fail the same practical twice, you're sent to the academic review board. You're also placed on the academic review board if you fail a clinical, but usually given a second chance within the same clinical setting. Twice, you're out. The academic review board is where you can plead your case in vain.
 
do they want people to commit suicide or something? Imagine being over halfway done with a PT program and being dismissed....
 
My school is pass/fail, no GPA calculations. You have to get a 70% on all exams and practicals. If you fail an exam or practical, you get to re-take it. If you fail that, you fail the class and are given the chance to start that year over the next year. We had very little turnover in my class of 65. I mean, 70% isn't that bad...it's on the low end for PT programs from my understanding. It definitely made for a more relaxed learning environment, less cutt-throat, however we are a TBL school through-and-through so I guess that's par for the course here. I can't imagine being in a program like the ones y'all are talking about! geez! Talk about intense!
 
DPTcoasral said:
do they want people to commit suicide or something? Imagine being over halfway done with a PT program and being dismissed....
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^This is actually no joke. This happens in medicine and law for sure. The intensity of professional programs is big but if you know that going in and do everything right while sticking to the handbook and expectations for success then you will be fine. Its not like this is freshmen and soph undergrad round two. Study every weeknight, take a break on Saturday night or on the afternoon, have something for at least 30 minutes after class to unwind and eat dinner to stay balanced (a quick run, tv show, etc.) before hitting the books.

On the bright side, you don't have to carry an intellectual switchblade ready to outcompete every breathing thing next to you for matching or ranking for firms. Everybody should stick together with their classmates. Take the edge off and collaborate. The programs are supposed to breed collaboration and don't have built in systems of competition until you are out.....this is corny, but make it a family. You all get through together.
 
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jmd13 said:
Hey everyone,

So at my school there are about a million different ways to get dismissed from the program... and consequently there is a major fear of failure and high stress levels among the students at all times. Between my cohort and the other 2 cohorts here, we have lost SEVERAL students. The requirements just seem kind of extreme and I'm wondering if this is normal? What are the policies at other schools regarding failing? Thanks!
Click to expand...


I never understand posts like this. What does it matter what other schools policies are? It only matters what your school's policies are re: dismissal.

Attend class regularly. Go home. Eat. Study. Sleep. Repeat. Blow off some steam on the weekend. You will likely make it through.
 
Thank you to everyone who replied with helpful information. The most impactful difference seems to be the opportunity to roll back and repeat the year. At my school once you fail, you're done. No second chances. About 15% of each of the 2 cohorts above mine have failed out and 6% of my class failed out after the first semester, still waiting on results from 2nd semester. I'm curious because I have friends and family pursuing PT school and I want to give them good advice. Looking back I wish I had paid more attention to the graduation rate they posted online (86%). If anyone would like to know specifics of my program I would be happy to answer, just pm me.

jesspt said:
I never understand posts like this. What does it matter what other schools policies are? It only matters what your school's policies are re: dismissal.

Attend class regularly. Go home. Eat. Study. Sleep. Repeat. Blow off some steam on the weekend. You will likely make it through.
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It's funny you say that because I don't understand unnecessary posts like this.
 
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AlanWattsBlues said:
once again in my life, an attempt at verbal irony in support of one thing is perceived as non-ironic support of its opposite. Damn.
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hahaha I had a feeling it was irony after I posted... but now that you clarified I will clear your name! lol
 
15%.... how big is your cohort? I'm curious.
 
jmd13 said:
At my school once you fail, you're done. No second chances. About 15% of each of the 2 cohorts above mine have failed out and 6% of my class failed out after the first semester...Looking back I wish I had paid more attention to the graduation rate they posted online (86%).
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15% is outrageous. Would you be willing to tell us what school this is? Something is wrong. It should not be that high. Either the school needs to change its admissions process, allow students to retake classes, or lower the threshold for passing. If I were applying today, I would definitely ask about the graduation rate. It should be 95% or higher. This statistic is especially important for non-trad students.
 
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engmedpt said:
On the bright side, you don't have to carry an intellectual switchblade ready to outcompete every breathing thing next to you for matching or ranking for firms. Everybody should stick together with their classmates. Take the edge off and collaborate. The programs are supposed to breed collaboration and don't have built in systems of competition until you are out.....this is corny, but make it a family. You all get through together.
Click to expand...

I tell incoming students to expect to study or be in class 50-60 hours a week. Some weeks like mid-terms and finals might require more. But I definitely had a life during PT school. I wasn't studying, sleeping for 4 hours, and then studying again.

You don't need to compete in PT school. Your only competition is the school's dismissal policy. This isn't med school where your GPA and ranking determine which residencies you're qualified for. Nobody in PT cares about your GPA except you. A student with a high GPA won't get better rotations or jobs than a student with a low GPA. Most students in PT school don't have the cut-throat mentality of law or medical school. It attracts more compassionate students. After all, they want to help people, don't they?
 
This is probably a dumb question.. but when someone fails a class and has to repeat a year, does that mean they retake all classes for that year? Or spend that year just retaking the one previously failed class?
 
NewTestament said:
I tell incoming students to expect to study or be in class 50-60 hours a week. Some weeks like mid-terms and finals might require more. But I definitely had a life during PT school. I wasn't studying, sleeping for 4 hours, and then studying again.

You don't need to compete in PT school. Your only competition is the school's dismissal policy. This isn't med school where your GPA and ranking determine which residencies you're qualified for. Nobody in PT cares about your GPA except you. A student with a high GPA won't get better rotations or jobs than a student with a low GPA. Most students in PT school don't have the cut-throat mentality of law or medical school. It attracts more compassionate students. After all, they want to help people, don't they?
Click to expand...

Yeah that's totally doable.
 
jmd13 said:
About 15% of each of the 2 cohorts above mine have failed out and 6% of my class failed out after the first semester, still waiting on results from 2nd semester. I'm curious because I have friends and family pursuing PT school and I want to give them good advice. Looking back I wish I had paid more attention to the graduation rate they posted online (86%).
Click to expand...

Yeah...that seems to be higher than any that I heard about on that thread linked to above.

What's your school's first-time/ultimate pass rate on the NPTE? I wonder if they're cracking down because they've had trouble with people not being able to pass in the recent past. I know of a professor who leans pretty heavily on anyone she identifies as weak and tries to get them to drop the program. Tells them she's just trying to help them avoid sinking in more time and money before failing a clinical or not being able to pass the licensing exam. A little messed up (I think), but at least it's a thought process...

As an aside, I think this also helps them with their metrics. Our program's website boasts a 98% graduation rate over a twenty year period. It's hard for me to believe that they are including all the people who "voluntarily withdraw".

I got very bogged down after some folks got kicked out second semester. It seemed to me like they didn't get fair treatment (singled out with a hostile learning environment). Those bad feelings of mine became a millstone around my neck that made the next year pretty rough. I hope your class didn't lose any more this semester. If they did, I hope this doesn't become a distractor for you.
 
AlanWattsBlues said:
I know, right. Like, why be curious? Why not just keep your mouth shut and do what you're told? Kids these days...sheesh.
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My point, which I'm sure you understood, is that this type of curiosity is not helpful. It doesn't change your personal scenario and it's time wasted.
 
jesspt said:
My point, which I'm sure you understood, is that this type of curiosity is not helpful. It doesn't change your personal scenario and it's time wasted.
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At one level, I absolutely agree that PT school is a time to put your nose to the grind stone and just get it over with. I'll come up for air and reflection when I have my license in hand. But on another level, having an anonymous conversation with someone about your fears and angers...it can help. Particularly when you have an opportunity to experience a sense of camaraderie with people dealing with the same struggles.

This forum has been helpful to me as I've encountered the stresses of school. And it's not because I learn helpful facts about anatomy or what tablet is best for class. It's because I have the experience of being heard, and I am reminded that I am not alone. I was hoping to give the OP an opportunity to experience those things as well. It doesn't change the pass/fail requirements of a program, but I do believe that these things can nurture someone's personal experience. It's not time wasted.

now, people asking if they should go to the expensive private school vs the cheap public school.... 🙂
 
I agree that, averaged over a few years, a school should not be loosing more than 5-7% at the very most. I can understand if there is just one oddball year where more than that are lost, but if they are consistently failing out 15% of the class year after year that is ridiculous. They need to either change their policies, change their faculty, change their curriculum structure or select higher caliber students, or some combination of the above.
 
emespt said:
This is probably a dumb question.. but when someone fails a class and has to repeat a year, does that mean they retake all classes for that year? Or spend that year just retaking the one previously failed class?
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At my school I know you have to retake ALL the classes from that semester. I think we lose most people in the first semester. I heard a rumor you do have to repeat the whole year if you fail in the second semester but not for sure on that.
 
I'm definitely glad to hear everyone else's views on this because so far it has really validated my concerns and alleviated them all at the same time. It's a fairly new program and I think it ultimately comes down to admitting students who aren't qualified and then having very stringent failure policies on top of it. We have many students who are already anxious and insecure about their capabilities and then they are put into an environment that feels unsupportive and almost threatening. Personally, I came in confident and haven't struggled much at all (yet, lol) but I feel a huge burden to help everyone I can because I constantly fear losing classmates who I believe would make good PTs if they had the proper support and development. It's definitely an emotional stressor that I wasn't expecting coming in. Anyway, if anyone would like to talk specifics (the program, stats, policies, horror stories, etc.) feel free to pm me! Thanks again.
 
I believe this is why graduation rate is the most important factor when deciding on a school...and then 1st time NPTE pass rate
 
Usually when a school has a good graduation rate, it means that the faculty is supportive and the environment is friendly
 
ktachiba said:
Usually when a school has a good graduation rate, it means that the faculty is supportive and the environment is friendly
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Or their acceptance criteria and screening are really good. Knock out the students who you think will not pass the NPTE early on and they keep their stats looking solid.
 
jmd13 said:
but I feel a huge burden to help everyone I can because I constantly fear losing classmates who I believe would make good PTs if they had the proper support and development. It's definitely an emotional stressor that I wasn't expecting coming in.
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It's good that you want to help, but don't develop an excessive sense of responsibility. That's a good way to develop anxiety/depression and will cost you dearly if you spend too much time helping your classmates at the expense of your own performance. I'm all in favor of collaboration between classmates, but ultimately them graduating PT school is their responsibility, not yours. You don't have to feel like you owe them anything, especially if it is putting undue stress on you.
 
Azimuthal said:
Or their acceptance criteria and screening are really good. Knock out the students who you think will not pass the NPTE early on and they keep their stats looking solid.
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So you think schools lie about their graduation rate?
 
ktachiba said:
So you think schools lie about their graduation rate?
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No. Graduation rates have to be reported. The only things I've heard of being fudged are employment stats from law school and for profit unaccredited institutions. A massive chain just got wrecked because a bunch of students refused to pay their loans because the school essentially gave them false hope in thinking that their diplomas meant something. The chain shut down 21 campuses.

If I were on administrative boards I would be Jesus in reporting everything and watching my behind like crazy.....then again, that's what they should've been doing anyway.

I'm probably gonna drink a few beers watching the news to celebrate every time a shady school gets wrecked over the next few years.
 
refer below. this double posted.
 
DesertPT said:
It's good that you want to help, but don't develop an excessive sense of responsibility. That's a good way to develop anxiety/depression and will cost you dearly if you spend too much time helping your classmates at the expense of your own performance. I'm all in favor of collaboration between classmates, but ultimately them graduating PT school is their responsibility, not yours. You don't have to feel like you owe them anything, especially if it is putting undue stress on you.
Click to expand...

This advice is incredibly on point. I used to go out of my way in undergrad to help literally everyone....then I realized a heightened stress level was completely due to overextending myself so I backed off. I still help classmates and thoroughly enjoy comraderie and teaching, but I take care of myself first from now on. Obviously, when working the patient comes first and you take care of yourself at night. That transition will come.
 
NewTestament said:
I tell incoming students to expect to study or be in class 50-60 hours a week. Some weeks like mid-terms and finals might require more. But I definitely had a life during PT school. I wasn't studying, sleeping for 4 hours, and then studying again.

You don't need to compete in PT school. Your only competition is the school's dismissal policy. This isn't med school where your GPA and ranking determine which residencies you're qualified for. Nobody in PT cares about your GPA except you. A student with a high GPA won't get better rotations or jobs than a student with a low GPA. Most students in PT school don't have the cut-throat mentality of law or medical school. It attracts more compassionate students. After all, they want to help people, don't they?
Click to expand...
Why am I the only one that likes this? C'mon people 🙂
 
NewTestament said:
I tell incoming students to expect to study or be in class 50-60 hours a week. Some weeks like mid-terms and finals might require more. But I definitely had a life during PT school. I wasn't studying, sleeping for 4 hours, and then studying again.

You don't need to compete in PT school. Your only competition is the school's dismissal policy. This isn't med school where your GPA and ranking determine which residencies you're qualified for. Nobody in PT cares about your GPA except you. A student with a high GPA won't get better rotations or jobs than a student with a low GPA. Most students in PT school don't have the cut-throat mentality of law or medical school. It attracts more compassionate students. After all, they want to help people, don't they?
Click to expand...
Why am I the only one that likes this? C'mon people 🙂
 
DesertPT said:
It's good that you want to help, but don't develop an excessive sense of responsibility. That's a good way to develop anxiety/depression and will cost you dearly if you spend too much time helping your classmates at the expense of your own performance. I'm all in favor of collaboration between classmates, but ultimately them graduating PT school is their responsibility, not yours. You don't have to feel like you owe them anything, especially if it is putting undue stress on you.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I really appreciate this advice. It's something I know I need to work on.
 
(ignore this accidental double post, my bad!)
 
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Lets face it: if youre doing poorly, and continue to do poorly - you have no one to blame but yourself, although if the dropping out is for non-academic purposes, we would have a different conversation - lets focus on grades alone here. Personal problems are personal problems and a separate story.

Multiple sources are available to help you succeed. I would imagine faculty must go through some extensive decision making together when it comes to failing student. I cannot imagine faculty prohibiting the progress and development of their students. At this stage of the game its more of 'do you know why youre saying what youre saying? do you know why you chose to do what you set out do' versus 'can you describe/identify what you are performing here?'.

Its important to constantly reflect on your performance. If you notice trends, just gotta speak up. Have an active voice, the second you feel even slightly concerned, contact your professors, contact your classmates and work together on improving.

I personally was on the verge of failing a class myself. At our school we are required to maintain a 3.0 GPA cumulatively, but you must pass the final and exams (which are treated separate) with >73%. After performing poorly on Exam 1 (77%), I changed my approach to studying for that class, put in more time, and Exam 2 turned out to be worse, and then the third exam I completely failed (61%). After working with my teachers for ~1 month, I finally identified my issue: I took tests too fast. It was unfortunate to have needed to take 3 exams poorly to have realized my error, but once I slowed down my pace, fully understood my thought process, and I completely murdered Exam 4 (89%).

Do not be consumed by the fear potentially failing. It is through those mistakes that we can only grow. Work with your faculty and classmates as a team. If you see a student struggling - lend over a hand. Rise and fall as a cohort.
 
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SwampPT said:
Why am I the only one that likes this? C'mon people 🙂
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Yeah, the current medical model doesn't breed the qualities of a physician that society sees through advertisements and commercials. It's found in the midlevels. Unfortunately, the lack of selling your soul a bit means a much worse debt to income ratio.
 
engmedpt said:
Yeah, the current medical model doesn't breed the qualities of a physician that society sees through advertisements and commercials. It's found in the midlevels. Unfortunately, the lack of selling your soul a bit means a much worse debt to income ratio.
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Personally I don't give a hoot about anything but helping patients. As long as I succeed in doing that I could care less what anyone thinks or pays me.
 
Youre probably in a manageable position like me.........try talking to the kid citing the private school charging 50k per year at the government interest rates. I understand your passion. I do, but if you haven't considered the fact that some ppl cant have children or drop a mortgage if they make an uninformed decision then youre nuts. Those ppl would give a hoot.
 
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Its a balance........everybodys balance and trade off scale is different.
 
engmedpt said:
Youre probably in a manageable position like me.........try talking to the kid citing the private school charging 50k per year at the government interest rates. I understand your passion. I do, but if you haven't considered the fact that some ppl cant have children or drop a mortgage if they make an uninformed decision then youre nuts. Those ppl would give a hoot.
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This has nothing to do with the question at hand. You should stop hanging out in the allo forum so much, it will really make you a pessimist.
 
DesertPT said:
This has nothing to do with the question at hand. You should stop hanging out in the allo forum so much, it will really make you a pessimist.
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Advice taken.
 
DesertPT said:
This has nothing to do with the question at hand. You should stop hanging out in the allo forum so much, it will really make you a pessimist.
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It's not pessimistic - it's pragmatic. And to make a statement such as "Personally I don't give a hoot about anything but helping patients. As long as I succeed in doing that I could care less what anyone thinks or pays me" comes off as naive. We provide a service that has value and continue to be poorly reimbursed for that service. Attitudes like the previous quote don'tt help us change that. It also doesn't ackowledge the financial hardships some face when pursuing this profession.
 
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