fake democratic groups

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gman33

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Currently in my first job search.
The pros/cons of democratic groups vs. CMGs has been discussed at length on this forum

If possible, I'd like to find a position with a democratic group.

There are some truly democratic groups and other groups where there are different tiers of partners. It may not be explicitly stated this way, but there are situations where all partners aren't sharing all the revenue sources.

From what I understand the so-called democratic group may have business relationships with entities which are owned by some of the senior partners. The other partners don't get a piece of this revenue. I guess some examples would be a billing company or malpractice insurance company that is separate from the democratic group.

Can anyone give me examples of this and what to look out for?

Also, how about the large groups that bill themselves as democratic, but are really run more like a CMG?
EMA in the NJ/NY area seems like one such group.

I honestly don't have a major problem with some people making extra money from side business entities.
My main question is evaluating the offers I am given, and trying to determine how they will pan out in the long term. I don't want to be told you'll make X and once you're partner you'll make Y. Then later I find out you never really make partner or you never really make Y.

Thanks.

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Currently in my first job search.
The pros/cons of democratic groups vs. CMGs has been discussed at length on this forum

If possible, I'd like to find a position with a democratic group.

There are some truly democratic groups and other groups where there are different tiers of partners. It may not be explicitly stated this way, but there are situations where all partners aren't sharing all the revenue sources.

From what I understand the so-called democratic group may have business relationships with entities which are owned by some of the senior partners. The other partners don't get a piece of this revenue. I guess some examples would be a billing company or malpractice insurance company that is separate from the democratic group.

Can anyone give me examples of this and what to look out for?

Also, how about the large groups that bill themselves as democratic, but are really run more like a CMG?
EMA in the NJ/NY area seems like one such group.

I honestly don't have a major problem with some people making extra money from side business entities.
My main question is evaluating the offers I am given, and trying to determine how they will pan out in the long term. I don't want to be told you'll make X and once you're partner you'll make Y. Then later I find out you never really make partner or you never really make Y.

Thanks.



I was in a similar position as you a few short weeks ago. Luckily found a SDG locally and got an offer that I took.

I don't have as much experience as some of the posters on here, but with the research I have done it can be difficult. I think any group that falls into the CMG category takes true partnership off the table. Examples (Em Care, Team Health, EMP, EMA, EMPC, Apollo). I interviewed with one of the CMGs and they made it sound like they had a truly democratic group with partnership, but the full track was 10 years and it only gave you a share worth maybe 100k. The recruiter even said their lawyers don't like the term "partner." Obviously that is a red flag. If they don't like to use it it is probably because you are not a partner. Now with this group they had a malpractice business and billing/coding business. Just like you eluded to, only a small group of the physicians got to part take in those profits. Otherwise there wasn't any profit sharing bonuses. It can be very difficult to figure out where the true partnership groups are. Another example I had was a smaller group where most of the employees were IC, but a couple of the docs were partners and managed the finances. It was a closed book group. Again, to me a big red flag if you are looking for a SDG with true partnership. So it isn't just the CMG/large groups, there are poorly run or unfair small groups too. Asking staff at your home institution can help, asking on SDN can help, and honestly asking the recruiter or the docs in the group. It is important ask the "hard" questions. (ie. how are profits shared, what do bonuses look like, how is productivity measured and paid out, hourly wage, hours worked per year...etc.) Another recommendation I have is to really calculate out the compensation packages. A lot of groups that include benefits really make them sound great, but when you do some research you realize they are overvaluing some of what they are providing. A common example from my search was that groups were adding social security/medicare taxes into my compensation package and they were not IC jobs. As far as I know that is an expected benefit in the real world, but they would count that as a 10-12k benefit. Just keep your eyes open for that type of stuff. If what more specifics you can PM me and I can give you all of the information I have found out during the job search, but there are more experienced posters that may be better resources. Good luck.
 
I don't know if I completely grasp your question. I don't think I would have a problem with a job where part of the group owned a side business as long as it didn't impact me. If they own real estate properties that doesn't affect me. If they own their own billing company or malpractice then that impacts me because they're going to want to use it even if it's terrible because it benefits them. That's a conflict and a red flag for me if I'm interviewing.

The bigger fake SDG is the one that has multiple layers of partnership, unequal ownership (1 or 2 decision makers with a 51% of the vote), a nebulous partnership track, or a track record of hiring doctors that don't make partner (this makes it a pyramid scheme). In my group, we have a clearly defined partnership track. You have access to all financial info from day 1. You make partner after 2 years and only 1 doctor in the past 20 years didn't finish out the track. Your percent of your productivity increases during those 2 years until it hits 100% as a partner. All partners are equally compensated, scheduled, and vote equally. This is the way SDGs should run.

You need to ask how compensation and voting works. You need to understand how you make partner. You need to ask how many hires have not made partner. If the group can't answer these questions quickly and clearly you need to keep looking for a better job.
 
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Currently in my first job search.
The pros/cons of democratic groups vs. CMGs has been discussed at length on this forum

If possible, I'd like to find a position with a democratic group.

There are some truly democratic groups and other groups where there are different tiers of partners. It may not be explicitly stated this way, but there are situations where all partners aren't sharing all the revenue sources.

From what I understand the so-called democratic group may have business relationships with entities which are owned by some of the senior partners. The other partners don't get a piece of this revenue. I guess some examples would be a billing company or malpractice insurance company that is separate from the democratic group.

Can anyone give me examples of this and what to look out for?

Also, how about the large groups that bill themselves as democratic, but are really run more like a CMG?
EMA in the NJ/NY area seems like one such group.

I honestly don't have a major problem with some people making extra money from side business entities.
My main question is evaluating the offers I am given, and trying to determine how they will pan out in the long term. I don't want to be told you'll make X and once you're partner you'll make Y. Then later I find out you never really make partner or you never really make Y.

Thanks.

Our books are open even to pre-partners. EMP is one of those democratic (in some ways) groups that happens to be so large it is run like a CMG in many ways.

I'd just ask those questions in phone and in-person interviews- are there different tiers of partners? Are there situations where all partners don't share in all the revenue sources? Many situations where there appear to be different tiers simply developed due to historical reasons. For example, my group banded together with a bunch of other democratic groups 15 years ago in order to negotiate with insurance companies and for benefits. There were some changes made at that time period so the groups could all be technically one business. Because of that, the buy-out calculation is different (higher) for those who were in the group 15 years ago versus those who have joined since. Eventually, all those folks will be gone, but in some ways it creates a two tier partnership. At a certain point, the later partners could outvote the earlier partners and change it. Doesn't seem very fair though. Situations like these really illustrate the importance of the people in the group. Remember this is a bit like marriage- you're going to be stuck with these docs (stuck by golden handcuffs) for 2 or 3 decades. Make sure you like and trust them with your livelihood. Fit matters and good people matter.
 
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Honestly, I could write a 5,000 word post on this, but I just can't find the motivation to do it anymore. I think my days of baring my soul on this forum may be coming to a close.
 
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Honestly, I could write a 5,000 word post on this, but I just can't find the motivation to do it anymore. I think my days of bearing my soul on this forum may be coming to a close.

It must be heavy :)
 
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I think to those of us in Democratic groups it is obvious but to those on the outside it seems like some big secret. I interviewed with a group who is a small ~20 doc dem group. My first question after they offered me the job. Are the books open? Their answer.. no. I said what about to your partners? No.. Well I said thanks but no thanks.

If you cant get accounting of every penny I would be cautious.

Pay structures must be fair and there shouldnt be any confusion who is getting paid for what. A democratic group should not have any "kings" aka those who make way more than they deserve because the system is set up in a way where they benefit indefinitely.

If you are an equal partner in a group you should know where your money is going. Plain and simple.
 
i've had 2 jobs with "democratic groups"... both of which were neither. not to say there weren't positives for the right kind of person, but that kind of person wasn't me.

about to start a 3rd gig with an obvious "CMG" in the same geographic area as one of the pseudo-CMG's. they pay a lot more for what ostensibly is the same job... we will see. i do know that my former pseudo-CMG had mechanisms in place where certain people profited immensely off the work of others. it's fine to profit to an extent, but when you find yourself underpaid AND underappreciated AND feel like your voice matters not... when the group crows on and on about not doing these things.... it's depressing as hell.

oh, and when they spend sick, sick amounts of money on recruiting and advertising and don't seem to care about turnover. it's expensive to hire docs, and to pay internal locums. they don't seem to care... just keep the machine rolling.
 
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i've had 2 jobs with "democratic groups"... both of which were neither. not to say there weren't positives for the right kind of person, but that kind of person wasn't me.

about to start a 3rd gig with an obvious "CMG" in the same geographic area as one of the pseudo-CMG's. they pay a lot more for what ostensibly is the same job... we will see. i do know that my former pseudo-CMG had mechanisms in place where certain people profited immensely off the work of others. it's fine to profit to an extent, but when you find yourself underpaid AND underappreciated AND feel like your voice matters not... when the group crows on and on about not doing these things.... it's depressing as hell.

oh, and when they spend sick, sick amounts of money on recruiting and advertising and don't seem to care about turnover. it's expensive to hire docs, and to pay internal locums. they don't seem to care... just keep the machine rolling.
Beware. Your honesty is reaching offensive and politically incorrect levels. Can't you candy coat it a little more for the tender-hearted masses, please?

Lol
 
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I can't say that true "democratic groups," where every "partner" is exactly equal don't exist, because I know they do (maybe). But a pure "democratic group" where there is absolutely zero power inequality, even between those that have been in a group for 25 years, compared to those who've only been around 1-2 years, I would say are extremely rare. Just think about it. You've sucked it up through med school and residency, then you became partner at or even started an Emergency Medicine group. Over decades, a few doctors stay through the good times and the bad. More than a few come and go over the years for various reasons. You, having been one of the senior partners, who has probably been through contract negotiations, served on committees, may have served as your group's President, Vice-President or on the Board of Directors the last 25 years in the group. Yet after 25 years, some brand new baby doctor who's been out of residency only 12 months and hasn't done jack **** to ensure the survival of the group over time, and hasn't done anything but work shifts, expects to be fully equal?

You don't think the guys and gals at the top of the power structure haven't carved out some perk for themselves? You bet they have. It may not be a major pay differential. They may not be robbing the group or taking chunks of money so big they can retire on, but you bet your **** they've carved out some sort of inequality or non-democratic perk in there. Even if it's just more shares in the group, which will allow them a bigger pay out when they leave, or some stake in part of the group they built (billing company; buildings/labs/equipment if multispecialty).

Rest assured, there's likely to be something undemocratic and un-equal in even the most "democratic" small democratic groups. It may be more shares depending on time in the group, tiers of shareholder status/partnership, voting rights, or something else. Honestly, I think this concept to a large extent, is an endangered or near extinct intention of the first Emergency Physicians, sort of like the ideal commune that would exist perfectly in an alternate reality, if only...human nature was perfect, and naive and ideal. Most, likely started that way, but few likely exist in that ideal form.

The exception would be the youngest and smallest groups. For example, if you and 4 or 5 other people you just graduated from residency with, went to some back woods ED, that doesn't have a stable ER group, no board certified EPs and started your own group from the ground up. Sure, you're all equal. You all started on equal footing. But over the years, as you've been there longer, had more meetings with lawyers, accountants, hospital ceo's to wrestle out your contract, hired and fired docs, got a pension up and running, and dedicated your life's work to a group, are you really not going to carve out some perk, some unequal portion of the power structure and just hand over the reins to some brand new baby doctor who doesn't know a damn thing about any of it and who probably just wants to work a year or two to find himself, find out where he wants to live, and is likely going to jump at the next perfect rainbow-unicorn job out Texas way?

That being said, don't necessarily confuse "unequal" with you're "getting screwed." That's a mistake I see lots of people make. They show up day 1, they have ridiculously naïve ideas of being "democratic" and "equal" partners day one (or day 366) and when they find out on day whatever, that they're not exactly equal in every way, they conclude "I'm getting screwed" without ever really having an understanding what is or isn't happening and move on the next supposed Shangri La that isn't.

You're not going to be "equal democratic partner" day 366. I don't care what they tell you. I don't care if they tell you they have "open books." They are all (or almost all) going to tell you they have them. But who really cares if they have "open books." It doesn't mean anything because 99/100 new emergency physicians aren't going to open the books, or have any clue what sense to make of the mountains of spread sheets and profit and loss statements, tax returns, or billing and collection documents from the past 16 quarters. Are you going to hire an independent accountant or healthcare attorney to examine the books of the group that just hired you 2 months ago?

But don't stop there. Many groups are fair or are reasonably so. The "guys at the top" might skim a little. Of course. But so what? They have to. They're running and have run, a complex business. You haven't. Some groups might be screwing the docs at the bottom, content with frequent turnover and a feeding frenzy at the bottom over the scraps. Sometimes it can be very hard to tell the difference. If you're being paid fair market value, don't sweat it too much in the short run. Learn the group's insides and outs, and decide if you want to stick around 25 years to assume the control. Then spend the next 25 years earning your keep, and being of value to a group more than just being a clock puncher. Not that there's anything wrong with being a clock puncher. Just don't expect the keys to the castle handed over to you if you decide to be one.

Keep in mind that getting to the top of some EM SDG, may not even pay off that well. Some of these docs that have spent 25-30 yrs building and managing a group see it vaporize in a day when a hospital kicks them out for cheaper labor. This is not the way to get rich. After paying the docs, there's usually not a huge kitty left over to get rich on. Most EM groups have little if any brick and mortar assets. Sure, if you're at the top of a massive multistate mega group as the CEO or CFO, you're going to do well. But that's a rare few, with a special skill set in business that few if any of us can claim to have.

There is an entire spectrum and bell curve of how groups or physician corporations are structured, no matter how big or small. Some groups are more "democratic" than others. But a true "democratic" group, where all are 100% equal in every way, are the exception, not the rule. Some are very fair and more "democratic" than others. Some are screw jobs, but honestly, I think ER docs obsess over this more than they should a lot of the time, because they simply don't have any understanding or knowledge of what's going on monetarily in their group and assume the worst. Most of the quality groups know they have to pay a fair wage to keep people and most are going to do that.

The most important thing is whether or not you are being paid fair market value for your services in your market or region. If you don't know what that is, what that means, or how to determine it, then you need to figure it out. If you're getting paid fair market value, whatever that is, then the issue of what group structure you're in, is less important than if you're being paid below market value (although it's still somewhat important for monetary and other reasons). The main way you're going to make your money as an EP, is just by working your shifts over time. If you spend 25 years at a group, you're likely to make a little extra, but don't lose sleep over thinking others are getting rich off of it, because it's not likely to happen too often. Those that have, in most cases built something over time you didn't build and earned most if not all of it.
 
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I tend to agree with your viewpoint on most of this but the reality is this. There is some ebb and flow. One of the issues with SDGs is the lower pay up front and higher pay at the back end. I cant imagine the SDGs paying market up front. But in the end to make top 5-10% income in EM I think it wouldl be hard to do outside of an SDG.

In my group we offer some things that benefit the young folks and some things that benefit the older.

I think the reality is not everyone in a group is worth the same to the group. The guy who is good friends with the hospital CEO is worth more to the SDG than the guy on day 366 who hasnt served on a committee or knows a single person in the hospital. Thats just reality. How you pay for that? I am unsure. My group has a number of "paid" positions. These are ALL (every single one) elected by our partners. There are no unelected "kings".
 
I tend to agree with your viewpoint on most of this but the reality is this. There is some ebb and flow. One of the issues with SDGs is the lower pay up front and higher pay at the back end. I cant imagine the SDGs paying market up front. But in the end to make top 5-10% income in EM I think it wouldl be hard to do outside of an SDG.

In my group we offer some things that benefit the young folks and some things that benefit the older.

I think the reality is not everyone in a group is worth the same to the group. The guy who is good friends with the hospital CEO is worth more to the SDG than the guy on day 366 who hasnt served on a committee or knows a single person in the hospital. Thats just reality. How you pay for that? I am unsure. My group has a number of "paid" positions. These are ALL (every single one) elected by our partners. There are no unelected "kings".

You could do it academic style where you get a clinical buy-down depending on the value of what you do for the group and the group takes the hit as a percentage off the top. Given the EM is harder to do when you're older, keeping reimbursement equal while allowing for gradual easing of clinical burden probably is the fair thing to do. The 60 yo doc that only sees 1.5 pts/hr but can stop peer review witch hunts in their tracks or redirect the CEO towards fixing back end issues when metrics are slipping has value that needs to be recognized. The problem with the traditional SDG partnership track is that, with the debt load rising and the cost of servicing that debt having skyrocketed, it's a tough sell to convince people to take a monetary hit when they're first getting out for future rewards. It would be interesting to see how much the uncertainty regarding making partner combined with need to start paying down 6.8%+ loans is contributing to the CMGs rise over the SDGs.
 
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I agree. It is sad because the winners arent the docs but are the shareholders of Team, Emcare etc.
 
I agree. It is sad because the winners arent the docs but are the shareholders of Team, Emcare etc.
If you work for those groups aren't there opportunities to buy shares, over time?
 
Ah, EMCare...

http://www.fraudwhistleblowersblog....eblower-lawsuit-by-large-er-pshysician-group/

(I actually have read the entire suit against hma and emcare. I find them disgusting and would absolutely refuse to work for them.)
Yes, I've seen that. I hate to break the news to you, but those arrangements are absolutely endemic in our system. It's not an isolated incident. The entire concept of hospitals directly employing physicians creates the same perverse incentives and in certain parts of the country, at certain times has been illegal. But that's all the rage now. Employ your doctors directly so you can monopolize where they admit them, where they send them for MRIs, and where they do their surgeries and procedures. Where there is money, you will find corruption. Medicine is no different.
 
Rest assured, there's likely to be something undemocratic and un-equal in even the most "democratic" small democratic groups. It may be more shares depending on time in the group, tiers of shareholder status/partnership, voting rights, or something else. Honestly, I think this concept to a large extent, is an endangered or near extinct intention of the first Emergency Physicians, sort of like the ideal commune that would exist perfectly in an alternate reality, if only...human nature was perfect, and naive and ideal. Most, likely started that way, but few likely exist in that ideal form.

Your cynicism has reached new depths. Every time I think I'm cynical, I just come read what you're writing.

There are groups where partners are democratic and equal for everything that really matters as soon as they make partner. What really matters? Pay and scheduling and a vote on new hires, fires, and major business decisions.
 
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Your cynicism has reached new depths. Every time I think I'm cynical, I just come read what you're writing.

There are groups where partners are democratic and equal for everything that really matters as soon as they make partner.
Like yours, where there's a 15-yr entrenched two-tier partnership that "doesn't seem very fair"?

...my group banded together with a bunch of other democratic groups 15 years ago in order to negotiate with insurance companies and for benefits. There were some changes made at that time period so the groups could all be technically one business. Because of that, the buy-out calculation is different (higher) for those who were in the group 15 years ago versus those who have joined since. Eventually, all those folks will be gone, but in some ways it creates a two tier partnership. At a certain point, the later partners could outvote the earlier partners and change it. Doesn't seem very fair though.

As far as my viewpoint being cynical, that's your opinion, but I'm not depressed, down, and cynical about this stuff. I'm on 2 committees in my group, and I'm on my group's board of directors, but it wasn't handed to me day #1 or day #366 when I knew nothing about how to run a group. Maybe you are cynical about it all, and I wouldn't blame you since you've stated your group's set up "doesn't seem very fair," but I'm not. What's helped me is being realistic. I think if people have an unrealistic viewpoint, that day #1 after graduating EM-doctor-school they're likely to be granted "equality," which happens in almost no other industry, no other medical specialty that I know of, and not even academic physician jobs, then that person is more likely to become cynical when they find out how it's done. If one is realistic, realizing they might have a fair deal early on, but may have to be in a group a few decades to be 100% equal control, power, voting rights, then one is more likely to be less disillusioned and cynical, actually. But if you read my whole post, you'll get my point, that none of this is really that big of a deal if you're getting paid a fair wage for your work, since there's not really that much power, perks or dollars at the top of the "small democratic" EM groups we're talking about, to runaway rich on. We're not talking about Apple Corporation, here. But if it makes you feel better to say I'm cynical, then "Okay."

If people want to think that they're going to be "100% equal" on day 366 as the group CEO that's been their 20 years, then fine, they can run with that and see how that goes.

"Pretty close to equal," on day 366? That's out there.

"Paid the same per wRVU" on day 366? That's out there.

But "Democratic and 100% equal in regards to everything" on day 366 as the group CEO and group President that have been in said "Small Democratic Group" for 20 years?

If that was the industry standard, I suppose you'd be in such a group, and not in your "two tier partnership" that "doesn't seem very fair." Yet somehow, this concept gets passed around, that "fully equal day #366" is the norm, the only acceptable alternative, and all other choices are a bad deal. I don't see it that way. You get out what you put in.
 
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If you work for those groups aren't there opportunities to buy shares, over time?
You can buy shares anytime. They are publicly traded. I could own a small part of them.

The point is your say doesnt matter in the least and if you own 0.00001% of a company you arent really an owner you are just an investor.

FWIW the ticker symbols for these companies are EVHC (Envision who owns Emcare) and TMH for Teamhealth). Emcare is valued at around 6B and Team just under 4B. So if you invested $100k you own an insanely tiny amount of the company.
 
I think fair is different to everyone. While every group, mine included could probably do it better than we do most SDGs are way better than the CMGs.

Simply if you have a say in your group your SDG income is in the top 25% of EM docs and pay is relatively close then the group is pretty fair. As stated everyone being the same is insane. That being said if you want to be the president you should be able to run and become president. The financials should be open to all partners. Everyone should be an equal shareholder. There is more to it than that but those are the basics.

Thats my 2 cents.
 
I think the bigger issue is that SDGs and CMGs will both become unprofitable in the near to mid-term future. The practice of medicine and the delivery of health care is not a static business model. Both the growth of freestanding ERs and the ACA are driving the country to a two-tiered health care system. It is a little naive to believe that if you put in two years of decreased compensation and work the group's nights now as a new graduate, that when you are 60 or so, you will benefit from the same hierarchy. As Social Security probably won't be solvent when we retire, the practice and economics of medicine will be completely different as well.

A case in point is Houston. Because of the preponderance of freestanding ERs (over 80 presently), there is a huge labor shortage that spills over into the rural areas of Texas. The main factor is that ER docs working in freestandings can see less patients, for equivalent or better compensation, in a much better working environment, and they are free from hospital metrics and CMS regulations and measures. There is also the opportunity to own equity in a privatization of the Emergency Room. Due to these factors, it is hard to find an ER doctor over the age of 40 in a hospital-based ER. In order to staff the ERs, the CMGs like EmCare, Team Health, and Schumacher, are hemorrhaging money. This also spills over into the rural contracts. The jobs that docs used to travel to B.F.E. to work for extra cash are not nearly as attractive now with 80 freestanding ERs in Houston offering better pay for less liability in a more metropolitan environment. This results in the CMGs having to overpay to staff these rural gigs too, because of competitive pressures.

This is just the economic situation from the physician/labor side and is resulting in dramatically increased costs for the CMGs. The other side of the coin is the reimbursement/revenue side. Revenue is also decreasing because traditional hospitals ERs are experiencing a dramatic decrease in their payer mix. Patients with commercial insurance who experience the privatized freestanding ER model never again desire to return to the hospital based ER. Thus, the ambulatory, commercially insured population is now predominantly seeking care in FSERs with little or no wait time, rapid throughput, and very high levels of concierge-like customer service.

The hospitals will soon have a payer mix that consists almost entirely of Medicare/Medicaid/Tri-care/Self-pay. In fact, the largest independent ER group in Houston (GHEP) recognized this trend two years ago. They gave up their contracts with HCA (although they sold it to their equity holding partner physicians as HCA didn't renew the contract) and shifted all of their focus and capital towards building out private freestanding ERs. GHEP realized that they would no longer be profitable making money off the physician's fee reimbursement under the new economic model. The way the group was organized, the physician partners only retained equity and profit-sharing if they continued to work shifts. As, GHEP no longer had the multi-hospital contracts, they did not have the positions available for all of the partner physicians. This manifested itself in the physicians at the top making out very well, while the bulk of the partners were left out in the cold.

This is just a microcosm of how I believe similar scenarios will play out in the coming years. The intent of the ACA is to create a single payer system for the existing hospital infrastructure. An alternative, higher private tier will then proliferate to meet the demand of those who can pay for a better health care system (similar to the British system). This is already evident in the freestanding ER trend and the growth of private non-CMS participant hospitals.
 
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I think the bigger issue is that SDGs and CMGs will both become unprofitable in the near to mid-term future. The practice of medicine and the delivery of health care is not a static business model. Both the growth of freestanding ERs and the ACA are driving the country to a two-tiered health care system. It is a little naive to believe that if you put in two years of decreased compensation and work the group's nights now as a new graduate, that when you are 60 or so, you will benefit from the same hierarchy. As Social Security probably won't be solvent when we retire, the practice and economics of medicine will be completely different as well.

A case in point is Houston. Because of the preponderance of freestanding ERs (over 80 presently), there is a huge labor shortage that spills over into the rural areas of Texas. The main factor is that ER docs working in freestandings can see less patients, for equivalent or better compensation, in a much better working environment, and they are free from hospital metrics and CMS regulations and measures. There is also the opportunity to own equity in a privatization of the Emergency Room. Due to these factors, it is hard to find an ER doctor over the age of 40 in a hospital-based ER. In order to staff the ERs, the CMGs like EmCare, Team Health, and Schumacher, are hemorrhaging money. This also spills over into the rural contracts. The jobs that docs used to travel to B.F.E. to work for extra cash are not nearly as attractive now with 80 freestanding ERs in Houston offering better pay for less liability in a more metropolitan environment. This results in the CMGs having to overpay to staff these rural gigs too, because of competitive pressures.

This is just the economic situation from the physician/labor side and is resulting in dramatically increased costs for the CMGs. The other side of coin is the reimbursement/revenue side. Revenue is also decreasing because traditional hospitals ERs are experiencing a dramatic decrease in their payer mix. Patients with commercial insurance who experience the privatized freestanding ER model never again desire to return to the hospital based ER. Thus, the ambulatory, commercially insured population is now predominantly seeking care in FSERs with little or no wait time, rapid throughput, and very high levels of concierge-like customer service.

The hospitals will soon have a payer mix that consists almost entirely of Medicare/Medicaid/Tri-care/Self-pay. In fact, the largest independent ER group in Houston (GHEP) recognized this trend two years ago. They gave up their contracts with HCA (although they sold it to their equity holding partner physicians as HCA didn't renew the contract) and shifted all of their focus and capital towards building out private freestanding ERs. GHEP realized that they would no longer be profitable making money off the physician's fee reimbursement under the new economic model. The way the group was organized, the physician partners only retained equity and profit-sharing if they continued to work shifts. As, GHEP no longer had the multi-hospital contracts, they did not have the positions available for all of the partner physicians. This manifested itself in the physicians at the top making out very well, while the bulk of the partners were left out in the cold.

This is just a microcosm of how I believe similar scenarios will play out in the coming years. The intent of the ACA is to create a single payer system for the existing hospital infrastructure. An alternative, higher private tier will then proliferate to meet the demand of those who can pay for a better health care system (similar to the British system). This is already evident in the freestanding ER trend and the growth of private non-CMS participant hospitals.
Very good post, with a lot of good insight you don't normally see on this forum. You're looking ahead, and that's good. It looks like you're in Texas. That's a state where free-standing EDs are widespread. However, in some states, physician-owned free-standing EDs, where a facility fee is billable (not a simple urgent care billing only physician fees) are outlawed. In such locations, much of what you are referring to would not apply, as there is a different set of rules.

But as to your point in thinking that long term, there's no guarantee one will benefit from the same top heavy power structures of the past, I agree. Lots of these groups end up losing their contracts to CMGs or hospital employed models and it can be gone in a day, anyways. I said that in a post above.

Also, once Medicare finds that someone's making too much money on something, they tend to slash what they pay on it. If they set a flat fee for ED visits regardless of acuity or site of service, this could cut into the free-standing ED gravy train.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...ding-a-freestanding-emergency-department.html

I think that being said, and more on point with the thread topic, you would probably agree that neither is anyone likely to be handed full "equality" and equal standing in a physician-owned free-standing ED, simply for having put in shifts for a year.
 
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I think fair is different to everyone. While every group, mine included could probably do it better than we do most SDGs are way better than the CMGs.

Simply if you have a say in your group your SDG income is in the top 25% of EM docs and pay is relatively close then the group is pretty fair. As stated everyone being the same is insane. That being said if you want to be the president you should be able to run and become president. The financials should be open to all partners. Everyone should be an equal shareholder. There is more to it than that but those are the basics.

Thats my 2 cents.
For the most part, I think we agree on this issue.
 
"However, in some states, physician-owned free-standing EDs, where a facility fee is billable (not a simple urgent care billing only physician fees) are outlawed. In such locations, much of what you are referring to would not apply, as there is a different set of rules."

As it will soon be evident in Arizona, Colorado and Ohio, there is an alternative structure for freestanding ERs to proliferate that does not require specific state legislation. Basically, any state that does not require a Certificate of Need explicitly for acute care hospitals (several Non-CON states only prohibit the construction of nursing homes and LTACs) will be open for development of this model.
 
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"However, in some states, physician-owned free-standing EDs, where a facility fee is billable (not a simple urgent care billing only physician fees) are outlawed. In such locations, much of what you are referring to would not apply, as there is a different set of rules."

As it will soon be evident in Arizona, Colorado and Ohio, there is an alternative structure for freestanding ERs to proliferate that does not require specific state legislation. Basically, any state that does not require a Certificate of Need explicitly for acute care hospitals (several Non-CON states only prohibit the construction of nursing homes and LTACs) will be open for development of this model.
Well that's good.


(Edit: Fuegofrio17 doesn't post often, but when he/she does, they're usually very good posts)
 
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If that was the industry standard, I suppose you'd be in such a group, and not in your "two tier partnership" that "doesn't seem very fair." Yet somehow, this concept gets passed around, that "fully equal day #366" is the norm, the only acceptable alternative, and all other choices are a bad deal. I don't see it that way. You get out what you put in.

You seem fixated on a "two-tier" partnership which I think is a rather poor description of a few thousand dollar different buy-out (which is less than a month or twos pay for anyone) that developed due to historical reasons as the group evolved. Some people bought in by not getting paid for their first 3 months, others bought in with dollars, others with time etc etc. But after 30 years with a group, where you've earned $10M, I hardly think $20K difference in buy-out is a reason to call a group undemocratic.

Equal pay, equal say, equal scheduling, open books etc is what really matters.
 
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I think the bigger issue is that SDGs and CMGs will both become unprofitable in the near to mid-term future. The practice of medicine and the delivery of health care is not a static business model. Both the growth of freestanding ERs and the ACA are driving the country to a two-tiered health care system. It is a little naive to believe that if you put in two years of decreased compensation and work the group's nights now as a new graduate, that when you are 60 or so, you will benefit from the same hierarchy. As Social Security probably won't be solvent when we retire, the practice and economics of medicine will be completely different as well.

A case in point is Houston. Because of the preponderance of freestanding ERs (over 80 presently), there is a huge labor shortage that spills over into the rural areas of Texas. The main factor is that ER docs working in freestandings can see less patients, for equivalent or better compensation, in a much better working environment, and they are free from hospital metrics and CMS regulations and measures. There is also the opportunity to own equity in a privatization of the Emergency Room. Due to these factors, it is hard to find an ER doctor over the age of 40 in a hospital-based ER. In order to staff the ERs, the CMGs like EmCare, Team Health, and Schumacher, are hemorrhaging money. This also spills over into the rural contracts. The jobs that docs used to travel to B.F.E. to work for extra cash are not nearly as attractive now with 80 freestanding ERs in Houston offering better pay for less liability in a more metropolitan environment. This results in the CMGs having to overpay to staff these rural gigs too, because of competitive pressures.

This is just the economic situation from the physician/labor side and is resulting in dramatically increased costs for the CMGs. The other side of the coin is the reimbursement/revenue side. Revenue is also decreasing because traditional hospitals ERs are experiencing a dramatic decrease in their payer mix. Patients with commercial insurance who experience the privatized freestanding ER model never again desire to return to the hospital based ER. Thus, the ambulatory, commercially insured population is now predominantly seeking care in FSERs with little or no wait time, rapid throughput, and very high levels of concierge-like customer service.

The hospitals will soon have a payer mix that consists almost entirely of Medicare/Medicaid/Tri-care/Self-pay. In fact, the largest independent ER group in Houston (GHEP) recognized this trend two years ago. They gave up their contracts with HCA (although they sold it to their equity holding partner physicians as HCA didn't renew the contract) and shifted all of their focus and capital towards building out private freestanding ERs. GHEP realized that they would no longer be profitable making money off the physician's fee reimbursement under the new economic model. The way the group was organized, the physician partners only retained equity and profit-sharing if they continued to work shifts. As, GHEP no longer had the multi-hospital contracts, they did not have the positions available for all of the partner physicians. This manifested itself in the physicians at the top making out very well, while the bulk of the partners were left out in the cold.

This is just a microcosm of how I believe similar scenarios will play out in the coming years. The intent of the ACA is to create a single payer system for the existing hospital infrastructure. An alternative, higher private tier will then proliferate to meet the demand of those who can pay for a better health care system (similar to the British system). This is already evident in the freestanding ER trend and the growth of private non-CMS participant hospitals.

This seems a rather fragile model. It wouldn't take much legislation/regulation for all of these free-standing EDs to go out of business (for example outlawing the facility fee or outlawing the ability of the physicians to own them etc).

I also don't buy into the inevitable decline in payor mix. I've seen two free-standing EDs go up nearby in the last 5 years and our payor mix hasn't changed in that time period. The free-standing EDs actually see the exact same payor mix we do. And most of them are building out into a full hospital.
 
You seem fixated on a "two-tier" partnership which I think is a rather poor description of a few thousand dollar different buy-out (which is less than a month or twos pay for anyone) that developed due to historical reasons as the group evolved. Some people bought in by not getting paid for their first 3 months, others bought in with dollars, others with time etc etc. But after 30 years with a group, where you've earned $10M, I hardly think $20K difference in buy-out is a reason to call a group undemocratic.

Equal pay, equal say, equal scheduling, open books etc is what really matters.
The "two tier" partnership description was your own description not mine. I was just a little surprised that you were calling me cynical for saying lots of groups advertise as fully equal and democratic and turn out to be something else, at the same time you were also describing your own groups set up as seeming "unfair." You words, not mine. But if you say you like your job and it's a good one, I'll take your word for it.

Rather than arguing over semantics, I think the take home point is that it's not so simple as all groups being CMG vs democratic group vs "fake democratic" group. Most of the non-CMG groups are going to advertise as "equal and democratic," but in reality there's a whole spectrum, a bell curve, or continuum of how these groups and the "equality" can be set up. I think you can find a fair deal in each scenario if you have the right expectations and there can be not-so-good deals in either scenario, too. I think that's the part that's important to know. And if you can't tell during the interview, you'll definitely know after working somewhere for a year. I know you know all this. It's more relevant to the third-year-resident through 1st year attending crowd.
 
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The "two tier" partnership description was your own description not mine. I was just a little surprised that you were calling me cynical for saying lots of groups advertise as fully equal and democratic and turn out to be something else, at the same time you were also describing your own groups set up as seeming "unfair." You words, not mine. But if you say you like your job and it's a good one, I'll take your word for it.

Rather than arguing over semantics, I think the take home point is that it's not so simple as all groups being CMG vs democratic group vs "fake democratic" group. Most of the non-CMG groups are going to advertise as "equal and democratic," but in reality there's a whole spectrum, a bell curve, or continuum of how these groups and the "equality" can be set up. I think you can find a fair deal in each scenario if you have the right expectations and there can be not-so-good deals in either scenario, too. I think that's the part that's important to know. And if you can't tell during the interview, you'll definitely know after working somewhere for a year. I know you know all this. It's more relevant to the third-year-resident through 1st year attending crowd.

I may have misread, but I believe he was saying the newer members could vote to not give the more senior members the appropriate payout because it is democratic. I thought he was stipulating that that would be unfair.
 
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The "two tier" partnership description was your own description not mine. I was just a little surprised that you were calling me cynical for saying lots of groups advertise as fully equal and democratic and turn out to be something else, at the same time you were also describing your own groups set up as seeming "unfair." You words, not mine. But if you say you like your job and it's a good one, I'll take your word for it.

Rather than arguing over semantics, I think the take home point is that it's not so simple as all groups being CMG vs democratic group vs "fake democratic" group. Most of the non-CMG groups are going to advertise as "equal and democratic," but in reality there's a whole spectrum, a bell curve, or continuum of how these groups and the "equality" can be set up. I think you can find a fair deal in each scenario if you have the right expectations and there can be not-so-good deals in either scenario, too. I think that's the part that's important to know. And if you can't tell during the interview, you'll definitely know after working somewhere for a year. I know you know all this. It's more relevant to the third-year-resident through 1st year attending crowd.

I don't disagree. There is a spectrum. Just like mental illness. Even the most sane of us are a little crazy.
 
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Your best bet is to talk to an alumnus that works there. IMO you can get "real" info instead of the cleaned up version from a recruiter.
 
One of our throwaways just had an article on the CMG/HCA joint venture. This strikes me as very bad for the profession, but the AAEM guy they interviewed really just trotted out the old talking points about the evils of CMGs compared to SDGs. There was a very small part about it may be violating anti-kickback and fee-splitting laws near the end of the article but there weren't any specifics given or any background on how these ventures got approved in the first place.
 
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