Falsifying Laboratory Data

[Yorkie Paws]

Hey Everyone

Just out of curiosity, have any of you had lab partners (or a large portion of a class) do this? This is my second lab class and it has happened both times. The first time it was my lab partner (and I heard most of the class was doing the same) and the second time a member of my lab group said she was going to do it (although it doesn't really matter this time since it isn't graded, only the lab tests are). They just like to put info down to speed up the process. Is this really common? I'm so frustrated with it.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Hey Everyone

Just out of curiosity, have any of you had lab partners (or a large portion of a class) do this? This is my second lab class and it has happened both times. The first time it was my lab partner (and I heard most of the class was doing the same) and the second time a member of my lab group said she was going to do it (although it doesn't really matter this time since it isn't graded, only the lab tests are). They just like to put info down to speed up the process. Is this really common? I'm so frustrated with it.

It happens all the time in undergrad. In the real world (a term I use loosely here, since I'm talking about academia) it's career suicide. If they don't learn this lesson before they graduate, the problem will take care of itself. Be glad you don't have to learn it the hard way, and be glad to know that it's not your job to teach those who do.

 

[laitmanvet]

Hey Everyone

Just out of curiosity, have any of you had lab partners (or a large portion of a class) do this? This is my second lab class and it has happened both times. The first time it was my lab partner (and I heard most of the class was doing the same) and the second time a member of my lab group said she was going to do it (although it doesn't really matter this time since it isn't graded, only the lab tests are). They just like to put info down to speed up the process. Is this really common? I'm so frustrated with it.

I remember that happening quite a bit when I was in undergrad lab classes (I'm assuming you're talking about undergrad.) It's unfortunate and sad to see and hear about, especially for a person who loves lab work, like me. I suppose lab class is different than a real lab...and cheating in a real lab is a big no-no (note the NYT article on cheating Harvard PI.) I guess as long as there is no grade for good data, than I wouldn't let it get to you too much. I worked in a lab undergrad for credit. It was an amazing experience and I learned a lot. If you want a completely different view on lab work I suggest trying this.

 

[sumstorm]

Wow...that didn't happen in my UG. The honor code would have required students to report it. Our lab reports (10-30 pages, depending on the class) were graded and we had to explain inconsistencies and such within the reports. Often times the data had to be distributed to all the groups in class before lab could be completed.....and some data would have been difficult to fake (like mass spec data or the images from the STEMs.)

Then again, research was a huge deal at my school with everyone in the sciences expected to complete an independent thesis, required to take at least one research based class that used research projects as a basis of learning, and expected to spend at least one semester in a PI's lab. So, I guess if a student had that mentality, they probably wouldn't have attended the school. For the non-science folks, there were classes without labs.

 

[scb44f]

I don't think pulling numbers out of thin air is a common occurrence at my school. The only time I've seen someone slightly fudge numbers was in organic I lab. The labs (that we used, anyway) went by so slowly, that some would crank the heater and estimate the distillation temperature (because the thermometer changes too quickly to read very well).

In chemical engineering labs, there was no reason to fudge numbers because they were all right in front of you. You either copied them down, or put them onto a flash drive.

 

[NStarz]

It happened a lot in my physics labs. I have yet to have a lab at my university that grades based on results, so I'm not sure why people do it. As long as you explained why you got weird numbers, you were pretty golden.

 

[Yorkie Paws]

Yup, undergrad. Intro to Chem was particularly bad. They were redoing our lab, so we had to finish our experiments in eight weeks instead of sixteen. It wouldn't have been a big deal, but we still only got the three hours a week to do them in. Everybody was stressed about it. My partner was one of the people who decided putting whatever down was okay. Anyway, I ended up reporting her because she tried to get me to do it with her and I had had enough. I was just honest with my prof, told her what happened, and that we didn't have time to finish. She said that would probably be fine and that my grade shouldn't take a hit because of it. Then on the last day of class, she gives me back my paper and the ones I didn't have time to finish were all marked wrong. Worst prof ever. Lab is just something I dread.

Well, at least I'm not alone.

 

[nyanko]

In an undergraduate laboratory class, that's stupid and dishonest, but IMO not really any worse than making stuff up on any other sort of assignment/homework.

But (as Tiktaalik mentioned) it is highly unethical for a research scientist.

It's usually pretty obvious to a trained person when someone has done this, because they won't really understand the process as well as someone who obtained the data honestly and accurately, and their data often follows certain patterns as well.

Eventually it will come back to them in some way, don't worry about them.

 

[168135]

In intro biology, I had a girl ask to see my lab handout because she didn't bother to do hers. THIS WAS THE SECOND LAB. I said no

 

[hunterjumper12]

I had a similar problem in my undergrad labs. When I had lab partners who wanted to fudge data, I told them that they could do it on their paper but that I wasn't doing it on mine. Had one who actually did that, and left like an hour before I did every lab. However, the lab practical at the end of the semester that you have to do by yourself got her Since I had actually done the experiments, I knew how to do the procedure and got a very good grade on my practical (which is graded on your numbers and percent error). She, on the other hand, did not.

 

[No Imagination]

So many students fudge numbers in undergrad, and I have no idea why.

I TA'ed a biochem lab class for 4 years, pretty much ran the lab portion. At first I made it clear that %error and accuracy didn't mean $hit to me - as long as they knew what they were doing... they still fudged.

Next year, I told them that bad numbers were GOOD. They could right about it, speculate why they were off - impress me with there reasoning skills. They still did it (One time the reagent was bad (didn't set the pH right and it was an enzyme assay) - well, 3/4 of the class had dead on Km values for there enzyme; ergh.

Finally, I started grading them on their accuracy (made them each pipette their solution into a 96 well plate and spec'ed it).

They finally stopped fudging numbers.

I learned my lesson; no consequences and kids are going to take the easy way out (9/10)

 

[twelvetigers]

Man, in my orgo lab, if you got the wrong melting point, it was just counted wrong. It didn't make honesty easy. The whole thing was that way.

Don't miss that lab.

 

[No Imagination]

Man, in my orgo lab, if you got the wrong melting point, it was just counted wrong. It didn't make honesty easy. The whole thing was that way.

Don't miss that lab.

Doesn't that just entice kids to open the CRC and look it up? (+/- ~9% if they are smart)

 

[PearlDVM]

you know - i remember that people did this in undergrad, and i didn't think it was that big of a deal at the time. I rarely did it, since I did learn early on (thanks to a great TA) that explaining why you got it wrong got you even more points . But, now, it really irritates me to read these posts. It's kind of silly, since I remember thinking it wasn't a big deal - but now I get all irritated. I guess it's just part of applying to grad school and taking it more seriously. I was always an honest student - but didn't see the harm in other people smudging numbers. If my lab partner wanted to - i wasn't gonna put up a fight (i just didn't think it mattered much). Now it really bothers me. I wonder why that is. I think I'd slap the me of 7-years-past. oh well - I'm sure that those of us with the dedication to pursue vet med aren't gonna smudge numbers! It's an interesting question tho.

 

[OnceBitten]

Man, in my orgo lab, if you got the wrong melting point, it was just counted wrong. It didn't make honesty easy. The whole thing was that way.

Don't miss that lab.

This is how it was for me. Getting an incorrect value meant both having to explain why the value was incorrect and losing the points anyway, so fudging was common when inconsistencies came up.

 

[CurrySpice]

I don't notice any number fudging in chem lab because we're not graded on accuracy. I'm not sure if I like the policy, because it encourages sloppiness, but it means that everyone writes down the actual numbers that they get for lab. The professor is in the lab along with the TA to help us out, so I think that helps in terms of accountability.

 

[breenie]

This was almost encouraged in my organic chem lab, I felt like. There was no incentive to be honest. We were graded on our percent yield, and if you didn't dry your product enough, or didn't get enough of it, you lost points. If you were the poor kid who dropped their product and couldn't recover all of it, you lost technique points AND points for your percent yield. If you had a good explanation for why your yield was low, it was irrelevant to your grade.

By the end of the semester, everyone ALWAYS got at least 70% yield. Unfortunate, I guess.

 

[No Imagination]

Another minor issue, about people who compare undergrad lab results with 'the real world', or further graduate work is this:

In undergrad class, you get one shot (perhaps 2 if you are lucky) to get your results. When doing real research, you can run a gel 20+ times until you get one 'good enough' for publication.

Now, I obviously don't mean rerunning it and getting different results, but if you are doing a purification protocol, by all mean, keep running it, for weeks if needed, until you get +99% purity, or a high(er) specific activity, whatever.

Undergrad labs =/= the real world. There are also so many poorly designed labs/class which grade students on things that are out of their control, no wonder people fudge #'s.

Hell, if it was me, I'd do it.

 

[sumstorm]

Another minor issue, about people who compare undergrad lab results with 'the real world', or further graduate work is this:

In undergrad class, you get one shot (perhaps 2 if you are lucky) to get your results. When doing real research, you can run a gel 20+ times until you get one 'good enough' for publication.

At my UG, you could always come back in and redo the entire experiment if it wasn't an experiment where you needed the entire class data to do your stats.. Just had to coordinate with the lab manager for some reagents and such. There were lockers just outside the lab supply room where the lab manager could leave stuff and provide you with a key.

 

[KiaKia]

Another minor issue, about people who compare undergrad lab results with 'the real world', or further graduate work is this:

In undergrad class, you get one shot (perhaps 2 if you are lucky) to get your results. When doing real research, you can run a gel 20+ times until you get one 'good enough' for publication.

Hell yeah. Furthermore, in intro classes, you're a complete novice at using equipment as basic as a pipette.

I'm bitter because of poorly designed labs with dirty equipment.

The first time I took orgo lab a large chunk of the class could never finish labs because we were trying to boil/evaporate/dry liquids in Erlenmeyer flasks...that doesn't work so fast.

Early in the course, we asked the TA if it was OK that we were getting 50% on each lab, he said that was fine. A few days before the drop date, we were told that if you didn't have at least a 70%, you should drop the class. Go figure.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Another minor issue, about people who compare undergrad lab results with 'the real world', or further graduate work is this:

In undergrad class, you get one shot (perhaps 2 if you are lucky) to get your results. When doing real research, you can run a gel 20+ times until you get one 'good enough' for publication.

Now, I obviously don't mean rerunning it and getting different results, but if you are doing a purification protocol, by all mean, keep running it, for weeks if needed, until you get +99% purity, or a high(er) specific activity, whatever.

Undergrad labs =/= the real world. There are also so many poorly designed labs/class which grade students on things that are out of their control, no wonder people fudge #'s.

Hell, if it was me, I'd do it.

I know the difference. It's still unacceptable to pass off fake results.