Feeling Bad about Dentistry 400k?

[Garett24]

So I just received word that I am placed on an Army HPSP Order of Merits List. I need someone to help me rationalize and derive some motivation for me because I feel really let down and unable to concentrate on my classes knowing I will be 400,000$ in debt. I am in first year and my debt will be a MINIMUM of 400,000 Principal. I am not feeling good about a career in dentistry. I feel worse when people say "If you do it because you love what you are doing you will be fine!. I cant focus on my classes. I have friends who are making 60k no debt and I think by all is said and done, they are promoted we will have broken even $$ wise but I will have burdened my youth with high stress education on a job deemed valuable, with half a million dollar shackle on it. Can somebody bring my spirits up? Can somebody explain some alternatives to paying this beast off? I cannot concentrate or derive motivation at the moment to do well in my classes.

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[786783]

So I just received word that I am placed on an Army HPSP Order of Merits List. I need someone to help me rationalize and derive some motivation for me because I feel really let down and unable to concentrate on my classes knowing I will be 400,000$ in debt. I am in first year and my debt will be a MINIMUM of 400,000 Principal. I am not feeling good about a career in dentistry. I feel worse when people say "If you do it because you love what you are doing you will be fine!. I cant focus on my classes. I have friends who are making 60k no debt and I think by all is said and done, they are promoted we will have broken even $$ wise but I will have burdened my youth with high stress education on a job deemed valuable, with half a million dollar shackle on it. Can somebody bring my spirits up? Can somebody explain some alternatives to paying this beast off? I cannot concentrate or derive motivation at the moment to do well in my classes.

I could have written this word by word. Group with people in your class who actually understand this financial undertaking (I'd say the minority,) and start planning ahead. Doing something about it instead of letting those ideas sit in your head (not trying to be offensive, just honest) will likely reduce anxiety. As a bonus, I'd try to explain to current Pre-dents what having >400k means when you are actually a dentist. Being socially responsible and explaining it to future dental students and dentists makes you feel better. Effective generational transmission of real career prospects would have prevented lots of dental students and dentists form making an uninformed decision choosing dentistry.

 

[Faux]

Could just apply again for military next semester and you'll most likely get it.

 

[Garett24]

Could just apply again for military next semester and you'll most likely get it.

I don't think you can do that for a three year. 2 year does not seem worth it.

 

[PaulS]

how can you get 400k from bank?? in canada, the max you can get is 250. The best way to pay it off is to go rural and work in a busy clinic and then buy a practice with a good cash flow after couple of years

 

[free99]

Just going to be honest with you, not a chance I'd have gone to dental school if I were staring down the barrel of a $500k+ loan when all is said and done. I'd have looked into PA -- shorter, cheaper education & expanding work force. Good luck with your decision, I'm glad you're being realistic about the financial consequences of private dental school.

What are your friends who make 60k/year doing?

 

[bing12]

its all mindset. I graduated 2015, I know those who make 8kper month, and I know those who make 22k per month, and in between. If you want it bad enough and are willing to be flexible with location, there is a ton of opportunity out there. PM me if you have any other questions.

 

[Incis0r]

Do you think that PA may soon be facing saturation?

 

[super frank]

I don't think you can do that for a three year. 2 year does not seem worth it.

Two years is still half of your debt...

 

[fellowstudent92]

Just going to be honest with you, not a chance I'd have gone to dental school if I were staring down the barrel of a $500k+ loan when all is said and done. I'd have looked into PA -- shorter, cheaper education & expanding work force. Good luck with your decision, I'm glad you're being realistic about the financial consequences of private dental school.

What are your friends who make 60k/year doing?

Agreed a 100%. To be straight up, my passion for dentistry does NOT in any way override my passion to be debt free lol if not for dental school, I would have become an actuary--I've always had a knack for math. If not that, then I would have gone into sales/finance, maybe done a corporate job etc.

 

[amalgam2020]

Do the income-based repayment (and make the minimum payments) and then get loan forgiveness after 20 years. My brother graduated dental school two years ago (w/ 500k+ in debt) and is doing the income-based solution without any problems. He still makes a very nice living and even just bought a practice.

Btw, how are your friends only making 60k? That's really, really low - even for new grads. Even if you only work 4 days/week, you'll make a lot more than that after school.

 

[LFA20]

So I just received word that I am placed on an Army HPSP Order of Merits List. I need someone to help me rationalize and derive some motivation for me because I feel really let down and unable to concentrate on my classes knowing I will be 400,000$ in debt. I am in first year and my debt will be a MINIMUM of 400,000 Principal. I am not feeling good about a career in dentistry. I feel worse when people say "If you do it because you love what you are doing you will be fine!. I cant focus on my classes. I have friends who are making 60k no debt and I think by all is said and done, they are promoted we will have broken even $$ wise but I will have burdened my youth with high stress education on a job deemed valuable, with half a million dollar shackle on it. Can somebody bring my spirits up? Can somebody explain some alternatives to paying this beast off? I cannot concentrate or derive motivation at the moment to do well in my classes.

You still have a chance of getting off the OML and get a 3 year year HPSP

 

[Garett24]

Do the income-based repayment (and make the minimum payments) and then get loan forgiveness after 20 years. My brother graduated dental school two years ago (w/ 500k+ in debt) and is doing the income-based solution without any problems. He still makes a very nice living and even just bought a practice.

Btw, how are your friends only making 60k? That's really, really low - even for new grads. Even if you only work 4 days/week, you'll make a lot more than that after school.

Oh no I was referring to "Normal" jobs that my friends have gotten right out of college like GM software tester.

Also I already applied for the 3 year ARMY HPSP. THATS the OML I'm on.

 

[amalgam2020]

Oh no I was referring to "Normal" jobs that my friends have gotten right out of college like GM software tester.

Also I already applied for the 3 year ARMY HPSP. THATS the OML I'm on.

Oh, okay. Well, good luck with the 3 year application. Hope you get in!

 

[free99]

Do you think that PA may soon be facing saturation? @Cello did some extensive research into other professions that are commonly recommended as great options, and he found the following about PAs:

80 new programs in development, wow. Maybe the grass isn't so green over there.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

80 new programs in development, wow. Maybe the grass isn't so green over there.

Definitely not. Especially with the new PA programs literally letting anyone in. No GRE required; no HCE required; no residency to do... Yeah its gonna bring down the profession as a whole. And the same for NPs. There are so many "online" NP schools now.

 

[free99]

Definitely not. Especially with the new PA programs literally letting anyone in. No GRE required; no HCE required; no residency to do... Yeah its gonna bring down the profession as a whole. And the same for NPs. There are so many "online" NP schools now.

Fair enough, sounds like things are taking a turn for the worse. Regardless, with a debt load of $400-500k, I'd be very hesitant to go to dental school having a better understanding now of what the job entails. It's just too much stress, effort, & liability for the take home pay if you're carrying that kind of debt. Not to mention the 4-5 grueling years spent training & the opportunity cost. I'm not sure what a good alternative is, just offering my opinion to the OP regarding where that fuzzy line of "too much debt" would be for me. I'm still optimistic that great opportunities exist out there in dentistry, but at some point you have to tap out when tuition becomes as exorbitant as it has, and income doesn't increase at the same rate.

 

[CanaDMD]

Fair enough, sounds like things are taking a turn for the worse. Regardless, with a debt load of $400-500k, I'd be very hesitant to go to dental school having a better understanding now of what the job entails. It's just too much stress, effort, & liability for the take home pay if you're carrying that kind of debt. Not to mention the 4-5 grueling years spent training & the opportunity cost. I'm not sure what a good alternative is, just offering my opinion to the OP regarding where that fuzzy line of "too much debt" would be for me. I'm still optimistic that great opportunities exist out there in dentistry, but at some point you have to tap out when tuition becomes as exorbitant as it has, and income doesn't increase at the same rate.

Medicine is probably still a great alternative, esp if u like a less saturated specialty

 

[dr.d00m]

This is why you go to your state school. $200k-250k is a whole lot better than $400k-500k

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Fair enough, sounds like things are taking a turn for the worse. Regardless, with a debt load of $400-500k, I'd be very hesitant to go to dental school having a better understanding now of what the job entails. It's just too much stress, effort, & liability for the take home pay if you're carrying that kind of debt. Not to mention the 4-5 grueling years spent training & the opportunity cost. I'm not sure what a good alternative is, just offering my opinion to the OP regarding where that fuzzy line of "too much debt" would be for me. I'm still optimistic that great opportunities exist out there in dentistry, but at some point you have to tap out when tuition becomes as exorbitant as it has, and income doesn't increase at the same rate.

I am with you on that one. For some its an amazing option. For me, its not a great option. (From AZ, avg stats)

 

[Garett24]

This is why you go to your state school. $200k-250k is a whole lot better than $400k-500k

I wish..I wish. I didnt get in and it didn't make sense to apply another cycle.

 

[distressstudent]

Definitely not. Especially with the new PA programs literally letting anyone in. No GRE required; no HCE required; no residency to do... Yeah its gonna bring down the profession as a whole. And the same for NPs. There are so many "online" NP schools now.

Yikes

How did things to so bad so fast... It seems like PA was a thing just yesterday, but the bar has already been lowered that much? When I looked into like three years it was supposedly still competitive.

... I'd be very hesitant to go to dental school having a better understanding now of what the job entails. ...

I like the way you stated it. As a dental student now, I see the same price tag very differently than when I wasn't one.

 

[fellowstudent92]

Medicine is probably still a great alternative, esp if u like a less saturated specialty

Not really Probably derm, but that's about it lol starting salaries are high in medicine but they're pretty stable throughout your career. Med schools are getting pretty expensive these days too now. Very difficult to start a practice, no being your own boss. -medicine blows in terms of ROI.

 

[LFA20]

This is why you go to your state school. $200k-250k is a whole lot better than $400k-500k

state school ain't gonna cost you 200-250k anymore. It is more like 250-300k (interest not included) unless you go to texas.

 

[dr.d00m]

state school ain't gonna cost you 200-250k anymore. It is more like 250-300k (interest not included) unless you go to texas.

Doesn't make my point any less valid. $100k-150k is still a huge difference

 

[comatose]

i would not do dentistry for 400K, not even for 350K. 300K is pushing it. You have to think of the lost income potential while you are in school, plus the interest and tuition increases that will happen through the four years you are in school. this is why it's always a good idea to keep your options open. Medicine has always been the better alternative imo. Great pay and solid job prospects pretty much anywhere in the country and not as expensive as dental school. Dentistry is becoming a dime a dozen like lawyers with all these new schools opening. I've been practicing for 9 years. 400K = not worth it in so many ways.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

i would not do dentistry for 400K, not even for 350K. 300K is pushing it. You have to think of the lost income potential while you are in school, plus the interest and tuition increases that will happen through the four years you are in school. this is why it's always a good idea to keep your options open. Medicine has always been the better alternative imo. Great pay and solid job prospects pretty much anywhere in the country and not as expensive as dental school. Dentistry is becoming a dime a dozen like lawyers with all these new schools opening. I've been practicing for 9 years. 400K = not worth it in so many ways.

I wish general dentistry had to apply for and do a residency. It seems like that is the best way to control saturation issues and control the market. Its also a way to filter out those that aren't super serious about it. 5000 dentists graduating every year with more increasing seems crazy!

 

[cmcner]

I wish general dentistry had to apply for and do a residency. It seems like that is the best way to control saturation issues and control the market. Its also a way to filter out those that aren't super serious about it. 5000 dentists graduating every year with more increasing seems crazy!

This would do nothing but increase debt as they would take away stipends and charge you to be a slave resident like they already do in many of the specialty residencies. New grads do fine treating patients by graduating getting a real job and taking in $10,000+ a month. The gate to blocking saturation should be dental school class size not an extra bogus step that people use to profit off of students.

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As for the OP and his $400,000 depression I suggest you take a step back and get a bigger view of the world. Debt when magnified is terrifying, it makes you think you are sentenced to a debtors prison and your life is ruined. If you look at the big picture though almost all large financial gains originated through debt in personal and corporate educated risk taking or investing. America in its current state is a combination of real money and fake money, oddly enough with the fake money causing more shaping of our landscape than the real money. The original terms of the debt you take on rarely change, so make sure you can work within those terms even in bad times.

Assuming inflation and higher income over the next 40 years if your career with experience you will likely make an average of $250,000 a year for 40 years or $10,000,000 over your career instead of $4,000,000 for a career that averages $100,000 a year over the next 40 years. That extra $6,000,000 plus how you can invest it even after the loans drop it down to $5,000,000 gained can lead to gigantic returns. So don't fret, just make good decisions and make the fake money work for you instead of blowing it on garbage, it's the American way.

 

[free99]

I wish general dentistry had to apply for and do a residency. It seems like that is the best way to control saturation issues and control the market. Its also a way to filter out those that aren't super serious about it. 5000 dentists graduating every year with more increasing seems crazy!

This is kind of like turning one conveyor belt in an assembly line slightly slower. I think instead we need to 1) stop opening dental schools and expanding class szies, and/or 2) incentivize new graduates to go to rural areas where dentists are scarce.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Everyone will be in debt at one point in their lives. Although it would be nice to be debt free, think about all the experiences that you will have in your life by choosing this path. When you die, are you going to be thinking about all of the beautiful moments in life you experienced, or all the debt you've accumulated?

 

[dr.d00m]

Everyone will be in debt at one point in their lives. Although it would be nice to be debt free, think about all the experiences that you will have in your life by choosing this path. When you die, are you going to be thinking about all of the beautiful moments in life you experienced, or all the debt you've accumulated?

I'll be thinking of the rewarding experience of having the pleasure to accumulate all that beautiful debt

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I'll be thinking of the rewarding experience of having the pleasure to accumulate all that beautiful debt

I just don't see a reason to stress if you settle on taking 20-25 years to pay back a loan. A tax bomb won't kill you if they forgive your 800k loan (considering you have been saving the TONS of money not going back to payment rather than spending them on sports cars). Will you end up paying more $$$ compared to living frugally for 10-15 years? Yeah probably. But you never get time back, why not live and have fun withy your life with a longer payment length.

 

[dr.d00m]

I just don't see a reason to stress if you settle on taking 20-25 years to pay back a loan. A tax bomb won't kill you if they forgive your 800k loan (considering you have been saving the TONS of money not going back to payment rather than spending them on sports cars). Will you end up paying more $$$ compared to living frugally for 10-15 years? Yeah probably. But you never get time back, why not live and have fun withy your life with a longer payment length.

Nah I'm not worried, I actually have it pretty easy. I'm fortunate enough that my parents are in a position to help me out so the loans I take out will be much less than a typical student. Not everyone has that luxury, and having a massive debt hanging around your neck like a noose for the next 20 years doesn't sound like fun..depending on loan forgiveness is not guaranteed and could end with you being screwed

Forget 20-25 years, I want to expunge it within 5 years

 

[distressstudent]

Nah I'm not worried, I actually have it pretty easy. I'm fortunate enough that my parents are in a position to help me out so the loans I take out will be much less than a typical student. Not everyone has that luxury, and having a massive debt hanging around your neck like a noose for the next 20 years doesn't sound like fun..depending on loan forgiveness is not guaranteed and could end with you being screwed

Forget 20-25 years, I want to expunge it within 5 years

So are you just here to kick OP while he's down?

 

[dr.d00m]

So are you just here to kick OP while he's down?

No quite the opposite. I'm here to make it clear that debt is not something to take lightly and, contrary to what others might say, letting that debt sit and accumulate over time is not a good idea. Start attacking it right after graduation and pay it off as quickly as possible (even if that means you're living on beans and rice in a shack for the first couple years)

 

[Chipotlegonewild]

No quite the opposite. I'm here to make it clear that debt is not something to take lightly and, contrary to what others might say, letting that debt sit and accumulate over time is not a good idea. Start attacking it right after graduation and pay it off as quickly as possible (even if that means you're living on beans and rice in a shack for the first couple years)

Most financial planners are saying to refinance and not pay the debt off quickly. Smarter to invest early and pay off debt steadily.

 

[dr.d00m]

Most financial planners are saying to refinance and not pay the debt off quickly. Smarter to invest early and pay off debt steadily.

Both ways can be feasible. I'd much prefer to just have that huge load off my back asap, then start investing freely. But obviously there are situations someone can be in where that's not a viable option, and a long term payment might look more appealing

 

[distressstudent]

Both ways can be feasible. I'd much prefer to just have that huge load off my back asap, then start investing freely. But obviously there are situations someone can be in where that's not a viable option, and a long term payment might look more appealing

Both are feasible

But by paying off loans early, you are trading off emotional value in exchange for financial value.

Investing is not a simple matter of throwing spare cash at a market. Recall that you are limited to how much you can contribute annually to a tax-advantage account and how much you can claim in deduction every tax season.

 

[CanaDMD]

Not really Probably derm, but that's about it lol starting salaries are high in medicine but they're pretty stable throughout your career. Med schools are getting pretty expensive these days too now. Very difficult to start a practice, no being your own boss. -medicine blows in terms of ROI.

Lol um what?

If you're slightly flexible in terms of location in medicine, you're going to be making at the minimum 200k a year. Dentistry never guarantees attaining that number.

 

[fellowstudent92]

Not really Probably derm, but that's about it lol starting salaries are high in medicine but they're pretty stable throughout your career. Med schools are getting pretty expensive these days too now. Very difficult to start a practice, no being your own boss. -medicine blows in terms of ROI.

Lol um what?

If you're slightly flexible in terms of location in medicine, you're going to be making at the minimum 200k a year. Dentistry never guarantees attaining that number.

Not sure what part you disagree with lol

 

[rivarat]

Everyone will be in debt at one point in their lives. Although it would be nice to be debt free, think about all the experiences that you will have in your life by choosing this path. When you die, are you going to be thinking about all of the beautiful moments in life you experienced, or all the debt you've accumulated?

I will be thinking about the wealth I could have built to pass along to my children and grandchildren.

 

[CanaDMD]

Not sure what part you disagree with lol

The fact that it's only derm that has it better than dentistry?!

 

[fellowstudent92]

The fact that it's only derm that has it better than dentistry?!

I put in derm there because of the sweet work-life balance. The other medical specialties aren't as good in terms of that and in dollar per hour earned in dentistry to medicine comparisons, dentistry probably evens out with medicine, with medicine slightly better (if we are talking about just general dentistry-dental specialties compare relatively well dollar per hour to medical specialties) and rightfully so due to the increased stress in medicine. That's not so bad for the dentists who don't have it as stressful as the physicians, wouldn't you agree?

 

[CanaDMD]

I put in derm there because of the sweet work-life balance. The other medical specialties aren't as good in terms of that and in dollar per hour earned in dentistry to medicine comparisons, dentistry probably evens out with medicine, with medicine slightly better (if we are talking about just general dentistry-dental specialties compare relatively well dollar per hour to medical specialties) and rightfully so due to the increased stress in medicine. That's not so bad for the dentists who don't have it as stressful as the physicians, wouldn't you agree?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying dentists don't have a decent job either. I'm a dental student myself lol

All I'm saying is that for a dentist, as an ASSOCIATE (which is where the field is heading sadly, with corporate domination), to make as much as our medical counterparts, we have to work just as much if not more.

Now, as an owner, that isn't the case but that comes with its own set of hassles.

To add : this means that most dentists don't make as much as their medical counterparts, sure maybe they do by dollars/hour, but definitely not yearly income (which is what counts in the end anyways...)

 

[fellowstudent92]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying dentists don't have a decent job either. I'm a dental student myself lol

All I'm saying is that for a dentist, as an ASSOCIATE (which is where the field is heading sadly, with corporate domination), to make as much as our medical counterparts, we have to work just as much if not more.

Now, as an owner, that isn't the case but that comes with its own set of hassles.

To add : this means that most dentists don't make as much as their medical counterparts, sure maybe they do by dollars/hour, but definitely not yearly income (which is what counts in the end anyways...)

it's not fair to compare a brand new associate to a full-fledged physician that has done 3+ years of residency and fellowship. Doing these residencies and fellowship allow these physicians to obtain better jobs, which yield higher salaries. Their residencies/fellowship is eqivalent to our time as being associates in a certain sense. If we are just talking about general dentistry vs medicine (including any medical specialty), then we must compare a dentist that has at least 3 or more years of work experience under his/her belt to a physician that has undergone the equivalent amount of time in post-medical school training.
and no, i disagree that your yearly income is what counts in the end anyways. You probably think this because you see dentistry as your one and only job- which is logical don't get me wrong but for those that are business minded, yearly income is not just what counts, time is money-both count. Time matters if every second to you is valuable--i guess we just have different perspectives on how time can influence your money.

 

[PaulS]

Most financial planners are saying to refinance and not pay the debt off quickly. Smarter to invest early and pay off debt steadily.

“The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest” – Albert Einstein

Tell this to your financial planner lol

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I put in derm there because of the sweet work-life balance. The other medical specialties aren't as good in terms of that and in dollar per hour earned in dentistry to medicine comparisons, dentistry probably evens out with medicine, with medicine slightly better (if we are talking about just general dentistry-dental specialties compare relatively well dollar per hour to medical specialties) and rightfully so due to the increased stress in medicine. That's not so bad for the dentists who don't have it as stressful as the physicians, wouldn't you agree?

Seems like a different stress. Instead of the stress of a person's health, its battling more debt and saturation issues.

 

[Incis0r]

Seems like a different stress. Instead of the stress of a person's health, its battling more debt and saturation issues.

Enjoy life while you can.

 

[Giovanotto]

I'd drop out like yesterday. Please don't go 400k in the hole for dentistry.

 

[dr.d00m]

I'd drop out like yesterday. Please don't go 400k in the hole for dentistry.

I think it's appropriate to expand on that and say: please don't go 400k in the hole for anything