Feeling Bad about Dentistry 400k?

[Cold Front]

Relative to many future dental students, $400k is a bargain. Anyone who says to the OP's $400k dilemma is a big no has to keep in mind that people were saying also no to $300k a decade ago, a no to $200k 15 years ago on SDN. It's all relative.

High debt is bad, unless you have a financial potential to justify it and back it up. The numbers need to make sense. Any accountant would tell you, don't just look at the top number, the bottom number is more important.

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[CanaDMD]

it's not fair to compare a brand new associate to a full-fledged physician that has done 3+ years of residency and fellowship. Doing these residencies and fellowship allow these physicians to obtain better jobs, which yield higher salaries. Their residencies/fellowship is eqivalent to our time as being associates in a certain sense. If we are just talking about general dentistry vs medicine (including any medical specialty), then we must compare a dentist that has at least 3 or more years of work experience under his/her belt to a physician that has undergone the equivalent amount of time in post-medical school training.
and no, i disagree that your yearly income is what counts in the end anyways. You probably think this because you see dentistry as your one and only job- which is logical don't get me wrong but for those that are business minded, yearly income is not just what counts, time is money-both count. Time matters if every second to you is valuable--i guess we just have different perspectives on how time can influence your money.

Fair enough, now I don't know if in the USA it takes 3 years to become a family doctor, but in Canada it only takes 2.

I am not even comparing general dentistry to any medical specialty, let's be fair. OMFS compares to the medical surgical residencies, and the rest of the dental specialties should be compared with the other various specialties in medicine.

However, it shouldn't be hard to conceive comparing a general dentist to a family doctor and many different internal medicine fields.

Say we compare to a family doctor. A dental graduate, after 2 years of experience, on AVERAGE, will not be making more than the average 180-220k starting income of a family dr (here anyway).

Trust me fellow, I am business minded. I am speaking to you not from my perspective but from the average perspective. On AVERAGE, dentists make LESS than family doctors, even when adjusting for training. Also don't forget many general dentists do a GPR.

I understand the principle of working smarter not harder, and dentistry allows that. However, at the end of the year, if I had to choose between making 150k as a dentist working 3 days a week vs making 300k as a dr working 5 days a week, I'd still choose the latter.

Could you explain your point of view on how time influences your money?

 

[Likkriue]

The huge debt hurts a lot when you starting buying stuff like houses, cars, yachts and whatever else the moment you graduate. Having kids with a wife that doesn't work is also poor planning. Why the **** would you marry someone and not expect Them to work? What is this, 1950?

If you are financially responsible you can tackle 400k debt. Once you pay it off you will be free and you can live like no other. If you start to stretch out your payment over 25-30 years because you:

A: Impulse Buy
B: Marry a stay at home mom and make 3-4 kids because you don't know condoms exist
C: Fall into the IBR/PAYE slavery trap
D: All of the above

You have no right to come on SDN or dentaltown and start complaining because the fault is your own. Nobody forced you to sign the loan sheets and nobody forced you to go to dental school.

 

[dr.d00m]

The huge debt hurts a lot when you starting buying stuff like houses, cars, yachts and whatever else the moment you graduate. Having kids with a wife that doesn't work is also poor planning. Why the **** would you marry someone and not expect Them to work? What is this, 1950?

If you are financially responsible you can tackle 400k debt. Once you pay it off you will be free and you can live like no other. If you start to stretch out your payment over 25-30 years because you:

A: Impulse Buy
B: Marry a stay at home mom and make 3-4 kids because you don't know condoms exist
C: Fall into the IBR/PAYE slavery trap
D: All of the above

You have no right to come on SDN or dentaltown and start complaining because the fault is your own. Nobody forced you to sign the loan sheets and nobody forced you to go to dental school.

100% this

That's a big 'if'..not a lot of people have the discipline to live frugally in order to pay off their debts swiftly

People expect the debt to just go away if they hold on to it long enough, and at the same time they splurge on unnecessary expenses like there's no tomorrow.

 

[yappy]

The huge debt hurts a lot when you starting buying stuff like houses, cars, yachts and whatever else the moment you graduate. Having kids with a wife that doesn't work is also poor planning. Why the **** would you marry someone and not expect Them to work? What is this, 1950?

If you are financially responsible you can tackle 400k debt. Once you pay it off you will be free and you can live like no other. If you start to stretch out your payment over 25-30 years because you:

A: Impulse Buy
B: Marry a stay at home mom and make 3-4 kids because you don't know condoms exist
C: Fall into the IBR/PAYE slavery trap
D: All of the above

You have no right to come on SDN or dentaltown and start complaining because the fault is your own. Nobody forced you to sign the loan sheets and nobody forced you to go to dental school.

I cannot think of a more important job than cultivating and developing your children through full time parenting. To answer your question, the reason why people exit the workforce after having kids is because a 10-dollar-per-hour-low-skill-caretaker is a poor excuse for a mom.

Having said that all these things should be considered before dedicating time and resources to dental education.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I cannot think of a more important job than cultivating and developing your children through full time parenting. To answer your question, the reason why people exit the workforce after having kids is because a 10-dollar-per-hour-low-skill-caretaker is a poor excuse for a mom.

Not to mention the fact that with day care costs now, a wife's 2nd income doesn't amount to much extra

 

[Likkriue]

I cannot think of a more important job than cultivating and developing your children through full time parenting. To answer your question, the reason why people exit the workforce after having kids is because a 10-dollar-per-hour-low-skill-caretaker is a poor excuse for a mom.

Having said that all these things should be considered before dedicating time and resources to dental education.

Marrying a woman who makes 30-40 an hour at a professional job is quite possible.bare you going to tell me she needs to stay at home?

 

[fellowstudent92]

our

Fair enough, now I don't know if in the USA it takes 3 years to become a family doctor, but in Canada it only takes 2.

I am not even comparing general dentistry to any medical specialty, let's be fair. OMFS compares to the medical surgical residencies, and the rest of the dental specialties should be compared with the other various specialties in medicine.

However, it shouldn't be hard to conceive comparing a general dentist to a family doctor and many different internal medicine fields.

Say we compare to a family doctor. A dental graduate, after 2 years of experience, on AVERAGE, will not be making more than the average 180-220k starting income of a family dr (here anyway).

Trust me fellow, I am business minded. I am speaking to you not from my perspective but from the average perspective. On AVERAGE, dentists make LESS than family doctors, even when adjusting for training. Also don't forget many general dentists do a GPR.

I understand the principle of working smarter not harder, and dentistry allows that. However, at the end of the year, if I had to choose between making 150k as a dentist working 3 days a week vs making 300k as a dr working 5 days a week, I'd still choose the latter.

Could you explain your point of view on how time influences your money?

In the US, it takes three years to become a family doctor. It could take more if you want to do a fellowship in family medicine. A dental graduate, after three years of experience, maybe if not three then i would say 4 years, can definitely get to that level, if they're slightly above average (they dont have to be aggressive). Not really sure how you define an average dentist is here either-average in hand skills? average in intelligence? average in ambition? what does average mean? I would say that the average dentist would want to start their own practice and have alot of ambition to begin with to improve their speed and care for patients. The average dentist IS motivated, in my opinion and from what i have seen of my dental classmates.
And how exactly is doing a GPR holding you back? I assume that is what you are implying. GPRs help improve speed, which will translate to more produced when you start associating in a practice and can speed up the process to starting a practice. We can agree to disagree here.
I would definitely choose making 150K for 3 days ...because the extra time you then have can be devoted to learning how to diversify streams of income, which can increase salary with no real manual labor at all. It's not so simple to say that working two more days will land you twice the salary in the bank even though that's what it appears to be--because not only are you working two more days out of the week but now each of those 5 days becomes harder as well--your time spent is much different now. Alot of variables are left out when you boil it down to "working two more days allows me twice the salary." I'm not going to elaborate much on how time influences money here since that is a different topic but you kind of hit the nail on the head: working smarter is better than working harder.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Seems like there are a lot more factors to it though. Dental salaries seem to be going down, while inflation still is rising. This is probably due to the opening of new dental schools and the 5000 graduates every year. However, Primary Care Providers salaries are rising. This is most likely due to the same law of demand in there being a shortage. I shouldn't decide to do a health care career based on how it is NOW, but rather what the signs and trends are saying it will be like in 5-10 years when I am fully practicing. It also depends on the individual person. There is no "one is better than the other" across the board. I am an AZ resident, have average stats and recognize that I am not a genius and probably would not have the opportunity to specialize if I went to dental school. With the schools here only being private, and with my average stats I realize that I would graduate with an enormous amount of debt and would not be able to live where I am living now since there is a dentist on every single corner. This wouldn't be a problem as a Primary Care Provider. So for me personally, medical is definitely the better option. Again, thats just for me. Its different for each individual and their goals/attributes.

 

[Garett24]

I'd drop out like yesterday. Please don't go 400k in the hole for dentistry.

Alternative??

 

[Garett24]

The huge debt hurts a lot when you starting buying stuff like houses, cars, yachts and whatever else the moment you graduate. Having kids with a wife that doesn't work is also poor planning. Why the **** would you marry someone and not expect Them to work? What is this, 1950?

If you are financially responsible you can tackle 400k debt. Once you pay it off you will be free and you can live like no other. If you start to stretch out your payment over 25-30 years because you:

A: Impulse Buy
B: Marry a stay at home mom and make 3-4 kids because you don't know condoms exist
C: Fall into the IBR/PAYE slavery trap
D: All of the above

You have no right to come on SDN or dentaltown and start complaining because the fault is your own. Nobody forced you to sign the loan sheets and nobody forced you to go to dental school.

So you are saying to pay it off as fast as possible?

 

[deleted738762]

its all mindset. I graduated 2015, I know those who make 8kper month, and I know those who make 22k per month, and in between. If you want it bad enough and are willing to be flexible with location, there is a ton of opportunity out there. PM me if you have any other questions.

Those friends that make 22k a month, what, how, and where do they work?

 

[deleted738762]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying dentists don't have a decent job either. I'm a dental student myself lol

All I'm saying is that for a dentist, as an ASSOCIATE (which is where the field is heading sadly, with corporate domination), to make as much as our medical counterparts, we have to work just as much if not more.

Now, as an owner, that isn't the case but that comes with its own set of hassles.

To add : this means that most dentists don't make as much as their medical counterparts, sure maybe they do by dollars/hour, but definitely not yearly income (which is what counts in the end anyways...)

lol what? You're saying dentist make more than physicians in yearly income?
Did I read that wrong?

 

[distressstudent]

C: Fall into the IBR/PAYE slavery trap

huh?

show me your numbers

 

[deleted738762]

huh?

What's not to get? The guy was very specific like any other guy on SDN...

 

[distressstudent]

What's not to get? The guy was very specific like any other guy on SDN...

Because PAYE/IBR is by no means a a slavery trap?

It is not enslaving you a debt that you weren't already bound to. There's no "trap". It is a very viable method of repaying your loans if you're smart about it

You shouldn't enter a 400k school thinking IBR/PAYE is going to fix your problem. But relying on IBR/PAYE is not a financial mistake, and on the contrary can save you a buttload of money

 

[deleted738762]

Because PAYE/IBR is by no means a a slavery trap?

It is not enslaving you a debt that you weren't already bound to. There's no "trap". It is a very viable method of repaying your loans if you're smart about it

You shouldn't enter a 400k school thinking IBR/PAYE is going to fix your problem. But relying on IBR/PAYE is not a financial mistake, and on the contrary can save you a buttload of money

I was being sarcastic.

 

[distressstudent]

I was being sarcastic.

I can't be too sure of your reading comprehension considering you read the other guy's post wrong too.

To add : this means that most dentists don't make as much as their medical counterparts, sure maybe they do by dollars/hour, but definitely not yearly income (which is what counts in the end anyways...)

lol what? You're saying dentist make more than physicians in yearly income?
Did I read that wrong?

Unless you somehow were being "sarcastic" again

 

[deleted738762]

I can't be too sure of your reading comprehension considering you read the other guy's post wrong too.




Unless you somehow were being "sarcastic" again

I was being sarcastic

 

[pmarank]

A lot of the people on this thread have just written how the "feel" about the debt. These are numbers you can look at objectively. Take your expected post tax income and subtract the monthly payments. 400k is a lot of debt.

 

[deleted738762]

A lot of the people on this thread have just written how the "feel" about the debt. These are numbers you can look at objectively. Take your expected post tax income and subtract the monthly payments. 400k is a lot of debt.

We all know 400k is a lot of debt scotty pippin.

 

[distressstudent]

A lot of the people on this thread have just written how the "feel" about the debt. These are numbers you can look at objectively. Take your expected post tax income and subtract the monthly payments. 400k is a lot of debt.

Did you read the thread or just the title?

We all know 400k is a lot of debt. There is literally no one debating this point.

 

[deleted738762]

Did you read the thread or just the title?

We all know 400k is a lot of debt. There is literally no one debating this point.

LMFAO right. Who is this guy?

 

[yappy]

Marrying a woman who makes 30-40 an hour at a professional job is quite possible.bare you going to tell me she needs to stay at home?

Yeah, I think it's preferable to stay at home.

 

[bjpenn]

I'm living proof of someone who had 400k debt 3 years ago. yea its not fun. I had to move to a rural place to make money. if i had no debt, I probably would have bought a practice in an area where I could really put my roots down, a place where I would feel comfortable raising my future children.

 

[vm26]

I put in derm there because of the sweet work-life balance. The other medical specialties aren't as good in terms of that and in dollar per hour earned in dentistry to medicine comparisons, dentistry probably evens out with medicine, with medicine slightly better (if we are talking about just general dentistry-dental specialties compare relatively well dollar per hour to medical specialties) and rightfully so due to the increased stress in medicine. That's not so bad for the dentists who don't have it as stressful as the physicians, wouldn't you agree?

Its an interesting point. Think a lot of it depends on specialty in medicine, geography, and setting (academics vs pp etc)...presently I am happy with my income, time off, and stress levels but things can change pretty quickly (usually for the worse) these days

 

[CanaDMD]

In the US, it takes three years to become a family doctor. It could take more if you want to do a fellowship in family medicine. A dental graduate, after three years of experience, maybe if not three then i would say 4 years, can definitely get to that level, if they're slightly above average (they dont have to be aggressive). Not really sure how you define an average dentist is here either-average in hand skills? average in intelligence? average in ambition? what does average mean? I would say that the average dentist would want to start their own practice and have alot of ambition to begin with to improve their speed and care for patients. The average dentist IS motivated, in my opinion and from what i have seen of my dental classmates.
And how exactly is doing a GPR holding you back? I assume that is what you are implying. GPRs help improve speed, which will translate to more produced when you start associating in a practice and can speed up the process to starting a practice. We can agree to disagree here.
I would definitely choose making 150K for 3 days ...because the extra time you then have can be devoted to learning how to diversify streams of income, which can increase salary with no real manual labor at all. It's not so simple to say that working two more days will land you twice the salary in the bank even though that's what it appears to be--because not only are you working two more days out of the week but now each of those 5 days becomes harder as well--your time spent is much different now. Alot of variables are left out when you boil it down to "working two more days allows me twice the salary." I'm not going to elaborate much on how time influences money here since that is a different topic but you kind of hit the nail on the head: working smarter is better than working harder.

An average dentist certainly does NOT want to manage a million-dollar or even a 700k producing practice. The average dentist associates or owns a 400-600k producing practice, netting 150-300k. Motivation fades over time - just because people are ambitious in dental school doesn't mean they will be forever.

Did I say a GPR is holding you back? No. A GPR year is the same as a residency year in medicine. It isn't holding you back, it's helping you be better after the residency, but that year is in fact a wasted training year. So, a dentist choosing a GPR only has a 2 year (or in Canada, 1 year) advance on the family doctor not choosing a fellowship (which is sort of specializing in it's own way, don't twist the tale)

edit : by wasted training year I mean wasted in terms of income... You're making the same as any medical resident that year!

The extra time can in fact be devoted to learning how to diversify streams of income. That is GREAT in theory; in reality, dentistry will ALWAYS make you more than ANY passive income opportunities (withdrawing exceptions such as venture capital folklore...).

 

[Giovanotto]

Alternative??

If I knew I wouldn't be in medical school myself.

 

[Likkriue]

Because PAYE/IBR is by no means a a slavery trap?

It is not enslaving you a debt that you weren't already bound to. There's no "trap". It is a very viable method of repaying your loans if you're smart about it

You shouldn't enter a 400k school thinking IBR/PAYE is going to fix your problem. But relying on IBR/PAYE is not a financial mistake, and on the contrary can save you a buttload of money

Banking on the government to bail you out over a period of 20 years? really? The less you start paying your loan the more likely you start getting "Doc Ti Tis".
If you are able to invest the money you get in your pockets, then good for you. yes you can save a lot of money because you are putting money into investment.

However I do not have faith that students who are willing to jump 400k down the hole will use IBR/PAYE the way it should be used. They will use the extra money from the lower payments to BUY BUY BUY. Whether it is to impress their new trophy wife or family or whatever. Hence why it is a trap. They got trapped into paying 400k to go to dental school. They want to live like a dentist. They will bank on the loans being forgiven after 20 years (LOL), and buy that house, buy that yacht, make 3-4 babies, go on tons of vacations.

 

[schmoob]

The huge debt hurts a lot when you starting buying stuff like houses, cars, yachts and whatever else the moment you graduate. Having kids with a wife that doesn't work is also poor planning. Why the **** would you marry someone and not expect Them to work? What is this, 1950?

If you are financially responsible you can tackle 400k debt. Once you pay it off you will be free and you can live like no other. If you start to stretch out your payment over 25-30 years because you:

A: Impulse Buy
B: Marry a stay at home mom and make 3-4 kids because you don't know condoms exist
C: Fall into the IBR/PAYE slavery trap
D: All of the above

You have no right to come on SDN or dentaltown and start complaining because the fault is your own. Nobody forced you to sign the loan sheets and nobody forced you to go to dental school.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge others on their family dynamics. Everyone's values are different; their visions on how they see their family life really is a choice that is more than simply financial. Labeling that choice as financially irresponsible as impulse buying material items such as cars and boats is not really a fair comparison.

 

[Likkriue]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge others on their family dynamics. Everyone's values are different; their visions on how they see their family life really is a choice that is more than simply financial. Labeling that choice as financially irresponsible as impulse buying material items such as cars and boats is not really a fair comparison.

They shouldn't start complaining about it then. "I can barely make payments!". Yeah most of it is going into feeding your kids.

 

[cmcner]

So you are saying to pay it off as fast as possible?

having only graduated 2.5 years ago I have bought 2 investment houses and a commercial building using bank loans with 10-20% down on each with over $500,000 in student loan debt. Use your money In the most wise and profitable way you can. For me putting down $150,000 towards investments that will be worth 1.5 million when the renters pay the mortgage off was a better idea than clearing my debt.

 

[distressstudent]

Banking on the government to bail you out over a period of 20 years? really? The less you start paying your loan the more likely you start getting "Doc Ti Tis".
If you are able to invest the money you get in your pockets, then good for you. yes you can save a lot of money because you are putting money into investment.

However I do not have faith that students who are willing to jump 400k down the hole will use IBR/PAYE the way it should be used. They will use the extra money from the lower payments to BUY BUY BUY. Whether it is to impress their new trophy wife or family or whatever. Hence why it is a trap. They got trapped into paying 400k to go to dental school. They want to live like a dentist. They will bank on the loans being forgiven after 20 years (LOL), and buy that house, buy that yacht, make 3-4 babies, go on tons of vacations.

They shouldn't start complaining about it then. "I can barely make payments!". Yeah most of it is going into feeding your kids.

Way to set up a straw-man.

 

[BWG]

Average debt is $275k, dentistry is almost zero risk unless you're a poor businessperson or have no people skills. Don't worry about it.

 

[Cello]

I cannot think of a more important job than cultivating and developing your children through full time parenting.

So who is stopping you from doing it?

 

[schmoob]

They shouldn't start complaining about it then. "I can barely make payments!". Yeah most of it is going into feeding your kids.

So do you plan on having children after all your debts are paid off? What age are you thinking?

 

[Likkriue]

So do you plan on having children after all your debts are paid off? What age are you thinking?

I'll have kids when my debt is in a manageable state. So about 32-33, gf would Be 27-28.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I'll have kids when my debt is in a manageable state. So about 32-33, gf would Be 27-28.

I wish I could snap my fingers and know at what age I would have a girlfriend and kids.

 

[Likkriue]

I wish I could snap my fingers and know at what age I would have a girlfriend and kids.

Be a stud and you will have a girlfriend easy.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Be a stud and you will have a girlfriend easy.

Nah I'm good. I already have a wife lolz. And trust me... Once you have the girl, babies aren't always planned.

 

[Mascota]

Nah I'm good. I already have a wife lolz. And trust me... Once you have the girl, babies aren't always planned.

To add to smurfeyD's comment, nor are the changes in your wife's priorities and plans when she becomes a mom.

Good luck telling your future wife she needs to work full time in her career because it fits your financial plans when she suddenly decides she wants to dedicate herself full time to motherhood. Be careful about making generalizations.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

To add to smurfeyD's comment, nor are the changes in your wife's priorities and plans when she becomes a mom.

Good luck telling your future wife she needs to work full time in her career because it fits your financial plans when she suddenly decides she wants to dedicate herself full time to motherhood. Be careful about making generalizations.

He will tell her that at age 30-31. Its all planned out. She will make 50-60k a year.

 

[Likkriue]

Plenty of people have their babies planned out, whats the big deal here.

 

[ericfs1]

So many suggestions here. Pick the realistic and good ones.
Regards

 

[distressstudent]

"everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

 

[Likkriue]

I personally know of a Responsible couple that planned all of their kids meticulously according their budget. They didn't have another until they were for sure able to afford it. They ended up budgeting for 4 kids when it was all said and done.

As a result they provided all their kids with college educations without paying a single loan because they meticulously planned early
On And these were expensive private schools.

If they can do it, so can I.

 

[Cold Front]

I personally know of a Responsible couple that planned all of their kids meticulously according their budget. They didn't have another until they were for sure able to afford it. They ended up budgeting for 4 kids when it was all said and done.

As a result they provided all their kids with college educations without paying a single loan because they meticulously planned early
On And these were expensive private schools.

If they can do it, so can I.

Ofcourse you can do it. But it comes with a price. Usually something everyone else (your friends and peers) is doing is given up.

There is more to life than spending it with a calculator in your pocket. Just balance living for today and tomorrow at the same time, not more of the other. Life is short, there is always the remote chance of tomorrow being your last day. The number 1 regret of old/retired people is not doing the things they could only do in their youth.

 

[Likkriue]

Ofcourse you can do it. But it comes with a price. Usually something everyone else (your friends and peers) is doing is given up.

There is more to life than spending it with a calculator in your pocket. Just balance living for today and tomorrow at the same time, not more of the other. Life is short, there is always the remote chance of tomorrow being your last day. The number 1 regret of old/retired people is not doing the things they could only do in their youth.

Hence why you budget. You need to know what you can afford and what you cannot. That couple got to do plenty of things in their youth. They didn't live like automatons. So your point is moot. If you meant Did they have to sacrafice not going into debt to pay for a 250k yacht? Well yes they did. did they sacrafice not going on vacations? No they did plenty of that because they budgeted for it.

Keyword: BUDGET

If you can't afford 4 kids you can't afford it.

 

[schmoob]

Hence why you budget. You need to know what you can afford and what you cannot. That couple got to do plenty of things in their youth. They didn't live like automatons. So your point is moot. If you meant Did they have to sacrafice not going into debt to pay for a 250k yacht? Well yes they did. did they sacrafice not going on vacations? No they did plenty of that because they budgeted for it.

Keyword: BUDGET

If you can't afford 4 kids you can't afford it.

You plan your budget around your life, not the other way around.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I personally know of a Responsible couple that planned all of their kids meticulously according their budget. They didn't have another until they were for sure able to afford it. They ended up budgeting for 4 kids when it was all said and done.

As a result they provided all their kids with college educations without paying a single loan because they meticulously planned early
On And these were expensive private schools.

If they can do it, so can I.

And no one knows how much kids are going to cost.. I have friends whose baby has had a ton of problems and theyve blown through money.. and its their 3rd child. According to their budget, they were supposed to be fine. No one knows the curveballs life will throw. I wish it was as easy as writing it on a calendar. Most of the time its not and you have to adapt.