Feeling discouraged as a psychiatrist, switch field?

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Antipsychotics and mood stabilizers have serious side effects. These can be mitigated somewhat and benefits usually outweigh risk when treating severe illness. There is some evidence the long-term antipsychotic use is not effective is certain patients. Antidepressants for most people do not cause serious side effects. There is some inconclusive evidence that treatment with antidepressants can worsen outcomes and cause a chronic course of depression as compared to no treatment. This I find concerning but for many reasons I don't know if this question will be answered in my lifetime. I think diagnostic labels can have a positive of negative effect depending on the patient and the diagnosis. The prevailing public opinion of mental illness, especially depression and anxiety, as a purely medical illness makes for a passive patient attitude that impedes recovery.

This really resonates after my day today. I was covering patients in an inpatient unit who all seemed convinced that they needed an increase in their various prns and other medications to address their sadness and anxiety. Of course these patients didn't leave their rooms or attend groups. Lots of them have substance usage disorders, too, and they were all already on probably too many medications as it is. The downside is, though, that these patients don't really have access to any other treatments -- they're all part of outpatient health systems that have access to therapy that is pretty much the go once a month, vent, therapist nods in support type of therapy.

How do we help people like this get well?
 
This really resonates after my day today. I was covering patients in an inpatient unit who all seemed convinced that they needed an increase in their various prns and other medications to address their sadness and anxiety. Of course these patients didn't leave their rooms or attend groups. Lots of them have substance usage disorders, too, and they were all already on probably too many medications as it is. The downside is, though, that these patients don't really have access to any other treatments -- they're all part of outpatient health systems that have access to therapy that is pretty much the go once a month, vent, therapist nods in support type of therapy.

How do we help people like this get well?
I always try to emphasize the big picture, and that sometimes doing less is useful. Getting into questions that reframe their perspective -- what're you hoping this will do for you? And if you feel better, what will you be able to do that you can't do now? What could you actually try to do?

And a lot of time what I find they actually need is a more regimented structure. Starting small. Brush your teeth every night. Have your blinds up (start getting their circadian rhythm synced). Get outdoors every day. Build a step at each meeting.
 
I always try to emphasize the big picture, and that sometimes doing less is useful. Getting into questions that reframe their perspective -- what're you hoping this will do for you? And if you feel better, what will you be able to do that you can't do now? What could you actually try to do?

And a lot of time what I find they actually need is a more regimented structure. Starting small. Brush your teeth every night. Have your blinds up (start getting their circadian rhythm synced). Get outdoors every day. Build a step at each meeting.

I feel like I need to start using more brief motivational interviewing techniques. PRN quetiapine is not the answer.
 
Do you ever wonder if there's a ceiling to this effect. Like we have created some major problems and eventually things are going to come to a head and there will be a major overhaul in how we treat mental health. There is so much talk about shortage of psychiatrists but is that what is really needed? Seems like we need less people prescribing medications and more discretion and honesty with patients regarding what medications can and can't do. So many people chasing the "if I can just me my meds right" line of thinking that distracts from real problems. Maybe more research in the future will lead to these changes.
 
Do you ever wonder if there's a ceiling to this effect. Like we have created some major problems and eventually things are going to come to a head and there will be a major overhaul in how we treat mental health. There is so much talk about shortage of psychiatrists but is that what is really needed? Seems like we need less people prescribing medications and more discretion and honesty with patients regarding what medications can and can't do. So many people chasing the "if I can just me my meds right" line of thinking that distracts from real problems. Maybe more research in the future will lead to these changes.
My higher functioning patients already know that medication isn't the key to a good life. The downtrodden are desperate so not so much. When they don't really have a condition for which medication is indicated, which is often the case, then they are really on the wrong track.
 
Do you ever wonder if there's a ceiling to this effect. Like we have created some major problems and eventually things are going to come to a head and there will be a major overhaul in how we treat mental health. There is so much talk about shortage of psychiatrists but is that what is really needed? Seems like we need less people prescribing medications and more discretion and honesty with patients regarding what medications can and can't do. So many people chasing the "if I can just me my meds right" line of thinking that distracts from real problems. Maybe more research in the future will lead to these changes.

This has long been my argument against the rationale presented for Rx for psychologists. Before one get into the training issues, don't we first have to ask ourselves, does the American public really need more psych meds? I, for one, am skeptical.
 
This has long been my argument against the rationale presented for Rx for psychologists. Before one get into the training issues, don't we first have to ask ourselves, does the American public really need more psych meds? I, for one, am skeptical.

Agreed.
 
The numbers would indicate not... a 400% increase in antidepressant use from 1988 to 2008 with a 24% increase in suicide rate from 1999 to 2014. I am beginning to wonder if the American public can survive more psych meds.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db76.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db241.htm

There are areas with stable population but ER visits are increasing by the hundreds of percents. I think the Green Journal recently published this.
 
I'm always puzzled by people who say they went into psychiatry and wanted to be a C-L psychiatrist because "I wanted a mix of medicine and psychiatry". As if the day to day role of a psychiatrist who does consults is 40% psychiatry, 30% internal medicine, 15% neurology and 15% every other specialty. I've had contracts to do inpatients consults at two separate community hospitals, and the skills you are going to most need involve working with medical social work in an effective and cordial way, being good at motivational interviewing(in a short amount of time and for just one encounter!), and then safety assessments. In 99.99% of consults the consulting team isn't asking you to be a Dr House type. The 'best' C-L psychiatrists are going to be the best psychiatrists period....some psychs feel that we sometimes aren't considered 'real doctors'....well newsflash- you don't have ents walking around saying they are CL ents or example. They are ents who get consulted.
 
Speaking of switching fields, my last official day as a psychiatrist was yesterday! I'm still doing some moonlighting, but no longer must I be identified among the general public as a weirdo whose job is to ask people questions in response to questions!
 
I'm curious to know too.
 
Speaking of switching fields, my last official day as a psychiatrist was yesterday! I'm still doing some moonlighting, but no longer must I be identified among the general public as a weirdo whose job is to ask people questions in response to questions!

I don't know you or all of your story but your posts consistently give off the air of someone who feels a great deal of contempt towards psychiatry/mental health issues. It's a good thing you're leaving the field because we need people who believe in it and are passionate about it and because the patients deserve better care. Good luck and hope you find some happiness elsewhere.
 
I really enjoyed this thread and the input many of you wise folks have provided.

I'll provide a naive, bushy-tailed intern perspective that perhaps might take you back to what got you into psych or at least a narrative born from inexperience.

Thinking back on my experience as a medical student and when I first did my psychiatry rotation, a lot has changed. I think one of the coolest aspects of our job is to confront things that are very frequently stigmatized and "too uncomfortable to talk about" head-on. I remember being uncomfortable asking someone about suicide, trauma-related stuff, and psychosis. It was weird and felt intrusive. Now, it's something I do without a passing thought. We deal with issues that people are often uncomfortable talking about with others - hell, the patients themselves may not even be able to confront these things - and provide an outlet to begin processing and dealing with these issues, whether that be with psychopharm, psychotherapy, or other interventions. No, this isn't something I think about on a daily basis, but in retrospect with a sufficiently global perspective, it is kind of a cool thing. There is nothing special about psychiatrists being able to ask these questions - anyone can do it - but it forms such an integral part of our daily practice that we actually develop comfort with these issues to the point that we can talk about them tacitly and in an environment that provides a sufficient degree of comfort to the patient while perhaps providing the treatment that can enable those folks to begin dealing with those very painful things. Good luck getting a surgeon to have an in-depth discussion on suicidality, why a patient's cheating wife launched him into a florid period of substance use, or any other "cliche" story we've probably seen a hundred times. Further, good luck to the surgeon should they attempt to have a meaningful discussion on these issues to help a patient develop insight into what's going on, convince them to accept treatment, or any other numerous basic tasks that we perform.

On consults, even the frustrating ones can be interesting or helpful to the consulting service, especially, as others have said, if you're able to decode the actual issue(s) behind a useless consult question like "homeless" or "tearful." No, you may not be able to solve those problems when the patient is being discharged the next day, but in your discussion of why a patient is homeless you may happen upon some substantial issues that have never been discussed before and open the door for treatment that up to that point hasn't been opened. I like the more medically-intensive, psychopharm heavy cases too, but even in the absence of those skills I think there are still things we are able to offer other teams that we probably take for granted without a passing thought.

I tire just as much as anyone of the patient who is on his/her 20th admission for substance-induced issues, but I've found that digging deep with many of these patients can bring to the surface some interesting and even actionable nuggets, sometimes seemingly unrelated to the presenting issue at hand. I think part of the practice is getting so much exposure to people that we can somewhat intuitively detect weirdness and know when to start probing to understand things that, prima facie, may not appear to require further investigation. Just as a medical student may not pick up on small, seemingly insignificant things in the history that have substantial importance to psychiatric management, so too with our consulting services.

I'm not entirely optimistic about the field. There are certainly plenty of negative things that go on with our daily practice. There are things about it that I can't stand. Sometimes I get bored. But just as cardiologists are experts of the heart, dermatologists experts of the skin, etc. - and, by the way, they very likely get bored with pacemaker placements, stent deployments, shave biopsies, and all of the other technical procedures we've developed - we also have our field of expertise. I think we may more liable to take those skills for granted because compared to, say, the more technical solutions to other medical problems, they seem pretty basic. But I think it's important to not lose sight of the fact that there are unique skills that we provide to both our patients and services that ask for our input. Sure, a lot of that is psychopharmacology, a lot of that is related to diagnosis, but I think just as much - if not more - is simply because we're comfortable dealing with issues that may make other folks, including physicians, extremely uncomfortable. That comfort allows us to get to the point of being able to even offer psychopharmacological solutions to problems. It allows us to attempt to separate the wheat from chaff - or at least make an attempt at doing so - so that we can try and prioritize an often-times long list of concurrent issues that many of our patients come with. That experience comes from years of seeing the spectrum of human behavior, the spectrum of determinants that play a role in that behavior, and attempting to identify slight variations on themes we've seen an innumerable number of times before.

These are soft skills, sure, but that doesn't in and of itself reduce their value, utility to our practice, or importance when doing something even as "basic" as routine depression management. It also doesn't make us any less experts in our own little world. The medical treatments we offer may be fairly straightforward (at least to those that demean the field), the diagnostic process apparently subjective and uncomplicated ("hold on, let me check the DSM and make sure I have a sufficient number of boxes checked"), and the task of talking with someone "so easy a caveman can do it," and yet plenty of people are so incompetent at these things that it's laughable.

Now those things may not be suited to your interests or what kind of work you envision doing. That's a completely different question and issue. But I do think it's important to recognize that we do offer expertise, that expertise takes significant time and experience to develop, and while it may not be "respected," it isn't, ergo, useless or unimportant.
 
Speaking of switching fields, my last official day as a psychiatrist was yesterday! I'm still doing some moonlighting, but no longer must I be identified among the general public as a weirdo whose job is to ask people questions in response to questions!

congrats nancy.....I've been trying to transition to real estate/building over the last year or so, but haven't done it very well. It's very competitive. If I had to do it again I would have done internal medicine probably, but too late for that. I know you wanted to do something that was more evidence based and medicine based, so I hope that's what you find(if you have elected to do another residency)
 
I'm not entirely optimistic about the field. There are certainly plenty of negative things that go on with our daily practice. There are things about it that I can't stand. Sometimes I get bored. But just as cardiologists are experts of the heart, dermatologists experts of the skin, etc. - and, by the way, they very likely get bored with pacemaker placements, stent deployments, shave biopsies, and all of the other technical procedures we've developed - we also have our field of expertise. .

I don't think that(for most of us frustrated) that's it at all. Yeah a dermatologist who excises a nasty looking skin problem may get 'bored' doing that for the 20th time that week, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that your intervention has made a very real and tangible difference in the patient's health and quality of life. A lot of the things we do, whether routine or not, just don't provide that.
 
I don't think that(for most of us frustrated) that's it at all. Yeah a dermatologist who excises a nasty looking skin problem may get 'bored' doing that for the 20th time that week, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that your intervention has made a very real and tangible difference in the patient's health and quality of life. A lot of the things we do, whether routine or not, just don't provide that.

You're right. There are, unfortunately, many times when we can't do much. But do you think the other medical specialties are immune? Go check out your local neurological service for plenty of examples. Even in your derm example there are cases where last-line therapies are ineffective. In med school I saw multiple patients with absolutely horrible cases of psoriasis that couldn't be controlled with crazy regimens of steroids, biologics, and meds for symptom management. There is no more that can be offered to the patient. That's the case with plenty of diseases in IM, peds, etc. etc.

Psychiatry is not unique in that regard. Perhaps it is with respect to the proportion, but other specialties deal with these issues too.
 
You're right. There are, unfortunately, many times when we can't do much. But do you think the other medical specialties are immune? Go check out your local neurological service for plenty of examples...

The difference is:

1) many of those disease processes are better understood/more within the realm of medicine/etc and there is at least the satisfaction of usually being able to provide the patient and family with that
2) I think you're underestimating the quality of the interventions(procedural and medical) neurologists have for much of their field.
 
The difference is:

1) many of those disease processes are better understood/more within the realm of medicine/etc and there is at least the satisfaction of usually being able to provide the patient and family with that
2) I think you're underestimating the quality of the interventions(procedural and medical) neurologists have for much of their field.

Perhaps, but the point is that this issue is not unique. I just finished an inpatient neurology month, and there were numerous cases where the treatment consisted of "steroids and pray." Now you're right in that there are a bunch of esoteric, fancily-named diseases which are better characterized than in psychiatry and which require sophisticated diagnostic testing to identify, but strip it down to the balls and the same problems remain.

Again, your point is well-taken, but my point is that this is not at all unique to psychiatry. I think going to another field in order to escape this problem entirely is a pipe dream (within medicine, that is).
 
Perhaps, but the point is that this issue is not unique. I just finished an inpatient neurology month, and there were numerous cases where the treatment consisted of "steroids and pray." Now you're right in that there are a bunch of esoteric, fancily-named diseases which are better characterized than in psychiatry and which require sophisticated diagnostic testing to identify, but strip it down to the balls and the same problems remain.

Again, your point is well-taken, but my point is that this is not at all unique to psychiatry. I think going to another field in order to escape this problem entirely is a pipe dream (within medicine, that is).

perhaps it's not unique but it's a much worse problem in psychiatry.
 
Oncologists, nephrologists, and rheumatologists deal with similar problems every day and in comparable proportion to psychiatrists. My father and brother have shared their experiences with me. Consider the challenges of treating patients with lupus and fibromyalgia.


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I don't know you or all of your story but your posts consistently give off the air of someone who feels a great deal of contempt towards psychiatry/mental health issues. It's a good thing you're leaving the field because we need people who believe in it and are passionate about it and because the patients deserve better care. Good luck and hope you find some happiness elsewhere.

This is unfair. I suspect nancysinatra is a pretty good psychiatrist, but psychiatry for lots of reasons (including a lot of true, stupid components of psychiatry) meant it wasn't a good fit. I'm hoping the next endeavor provides more contentment.
 
Oncologists, nephrologists, and rheumatologists deal with similar problems every day and in comparable proportion to psychiatrists. My father and brother have shared their experiences with me. Consider the challenges of treating patients with lupus and fibromyalgia.


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Ok now imagine if pretty much *everything* rheumatologists treated was FM and then that would be a pretty good comparison to psych.
 
I don't think that(for most of us frustrated) that's it at all. Yeah a dermatologist who excises a nasty looking skin problem may get 'bored' doing that for the 20th time that week, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that your intervention has made a very real and tangible difference in the patient's health and quality of life. A lot of the things we do, whether routine or not, just don't provide that.

I agree; and I think the frustration is aggravated when there is a lack of insight into this reality. The most glaring example I can think of is when we re-admit kids with behavioral problems for the 6th time and "optimize" there medications, when in reality the only evidence based pharmacologic intervention was probably tried the first time. I have found satisfaction in becoming aware of this and reframing both my role and expectations. Hearing patients stories and trying to formulate there presentations is something I still find stimulating, but I don't arrive at work with an ego deficit that I look to full by feeling especially helpful every day.
 
I agree; and I think the frustration is aggravated when there is a lack of insight into this reality. The most glaring example I can think of is when we re-admit kids with behavioral problems for the 6th time and "optimize" there medications, when in reality the only evidence based pharmacologic intervention was probably tried the first time. I have found satisfaction in becoming aware of this and reframing both my role and expectations. Hearing patients stories and trying to formulate there presentations is something I still find stimulating, but I don't arrive at work with an ego deficit that I look to full by feeling especially helpful every day.

The reality is that we often help by doing less, so not jumping into endless polypharmacy medication regimens when there's no indication that this would be helpful.
 
I agree; and I think the frustration is aggravated when there is a lack of insight into this reality. The most glaring example I can think of is when we re-admit kids with behavioral problems for the 6th time and "optimize" there medications, when in reality the only evidence based pharmacologic intervention was probably tried the first time. I have found satisfaction in becoming aware of this and reframing both my role and expectations. Hearing patients stories and trying to formulate there presentations is something I still find stimulating, but I don't arrive at work with an ego deficit that I look to full by feeling especially helpful every day.

I take a similar approach at times....but the reality is this: You(or the unit or system or someone) is admitting a kid with a behavioral problem again and again. If I take the approach you mention as the inpatient psychiatrist, then the flip side of the coin is that the parents and everyone else will say "well what the hell good are you then?". Because I'm not going to be the one doing the hands on 'other interventions' either as the inpatient psychiatrist. I can try to 'reframe' my role all I want, but in most systems my role is already defined. And the reality is we aren't being paid 250k a year(or whatever) to create new roles for ourselves in most systems.
 
The reality is that we often help by doing less, so not jumping into endless polypharmacy medication regimens when there's no indication that this would be helpful.

of course.....and I don't think you will find a more skeptical person than me regarding psychotropic medications. But the reality is that if 'not ****ing up by doing nothing' is very often the best result for many of our patients(and I think it is), that doesn't speak highly of our field in it's current form.
 
I take a similar approach at times....but the reality is this: You(or the unit or system or someone) is admitting a kid with a behavioral problem again and again. If I take the approach you mention as the inpatient psychiatrist, then the flip side of the coin is that the parents and everyone else will say "well what the hell good are you then?".

Well we aren't much good in many cases... and yet they keep coming back. If parents started saying to me they'd prefer not to have the kid admitted because they didn't see a benefit that would be great. I'm not concerned about going out of business, we turn down referrals for inpatient every single day.
 
of course.....and I don't think you will find a more skeptical person than me regarding psychotropic medications. But the reality is that if 'not ****ing up by doing nothing' is very often the best result for many of our patients(and I think it is), that doesn't speak highly of our field in it's current form.

I don't disagree, although I think we do a better job at it than non-psychiatrist people in our fields. So yay, go us.
 
Well we aren't much good in many cases... and yet they keep coming back. If parents started saying to me they'd prefer not to have the kid admitted because they didn't see a benefit that would be great. I'm not concerned about going out of business, we turn down referrals for inpatient every single day.

of course but the presence of that sort of demand for our 'services' in situations like that doesn't neccessarily speak well of our profession or services or future.
 
I don't disagree, although I think we do a better job at it than non-psychiatrist people in our fields. So yay, go us.

im confused....by 'our fields' do you mean other people in mental health or physicians in other specialties?

If it's the former I don't see how this makes sense(apart from psych nps) because they can't prescribe the polypharmacy in the first place so they can't mess up in that way. If it's the latter then I just see it differently....I don't see a lot of primary care physicians who have patients on an AD, mood stabilzer, stimulant, and antipsychotic at the same time(and we all know plenty of psychs who do this routinely). And in the cases where they do, you have to wonder how much of it was just continuing scripts from a previous psychiatrist in the first place.

That said, I think the biggest frustration for a lot of us is that so many of the things of either questionable efficacy or things that cause harm and side effects are the aspect of our jobs that did require 'medical' training and whatnot. Because sure some psychiatrist could take a behavioral nightmare adol who has failed every psychotropic imaginable and readmit him and spend a lot of time with various non-pharm modalities...setting up social reward systems, family therapy, etc.....and maybe it did provide some benefit. But even in that case, the ultimate intervention is not medical and in no way required someone to go to medical school or be an MD/psychiatrist. Since clearly many other MH professionals can work with these interventions (many much more comfortable than we can).....

A good analogy would be if orthos starting doing the physical therapy themselves with patients. They stopped operating completely and just started either referring every pt for PT or doing the PT themselves. Even when an outcome was good, they'd probably still say "why did I go to medical school and spend 5 years in training for this? I should have gone to PT school".
 
I really hate the laxity of thinking in many psychiatrists who just throw meds at patients waiting to see an effect, a practice that does not require much medical education (or thought). If you tried this in cardiology, you'd kill patients and loose your license.

But psychiatry became impressive to me when I worked with true experts - those who were 20 years in the fields of geriatrics, addiction, reproductive, and C&L. They had a very deep understanding of pharmacology, physiology, and human behavior to bring about health in almost a magical way. They had a sixth sense of excellent care.

What does this all mean? Our field needs better, more motivated medical students. The smarter, the better. We need psychiatrists who demand excellence of themselves.

As for where I stand, I hate to say I demand more but I kinda do. I miss having medications and interventions that have a clearly understood mechanism that is measurable. I want interventions to have more dependable efficacy, and a wider variety of tools in my medical pocket. I want to master a specific area of anatomy and to use my knowledge of anatomy on a daily basis. I'd like to have a more immediate impact in patients' lives. I'd even like to incorporate physical exams and having reading films a regular part of the job. You go into med school hungry for all this at some point. Maybe not. But that's my experience. Having said this, I have loved my patients and valued every chance to help them psychiatrically, a skill I will take with me when I work with all patients in the future. It has been a truly rewarding experience from the patient-doctor interaction standpoint. This is where psychiatry can really shine. If you relate to my experience, then I'd recommend specializing without a doubt.
 
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Agree that less is more but this doesn't seem to be the popular opinion based on medication regimens I see. Taking people off of medications is always gratifying but I don't know if swimming upstream is going to be gratifying long term. Having to struggle and bargain to get 30 minutes follow-ups which is, in my opinion, the minimum amount of time to provide adequate care is a big downer. The hard thing for me is that I don't hate the day to day to work and patients, for the most part, are appreciative and feel they are being helped even though he system is extremely flawed. Makes a choice whether to leave or stay very difficult.
 
If psychiatry doesn't continue to maximize, develop, and utilize the "soft skills" that Nick was discussing then it is pretty bleak. I take a lot of pride in effecting dramatic change without prescribing medications. I see the bad psychiatry every day (NPs in our community) and my psychotherapy skills beat it hands down every day of the week. Even in a disorder like schizophrenia, the medication is typically the smaller part of the puzzle. If the psychiatrist punts all of the rest to the plethora of mid-level therapists and case workers, then we get the more complex and challenging aspects of mental illness handled by the least trained.
 
If psychiatry doesn't continue to maximize, develop, and utilize the "soft skills" that Nick was discussing then it is pretty bleak. I take a lot of pride in effecting dramatic change without prescribing medications. I see the bad psychiatry every day (NPs in our community) and my psychotherapy skills beat it hands down every day of the week. Even in a disorder like schizophrenia, the medication is typically the smaller part of the puzzle. If the psychiatrist punts all of the rest to the plethora of mid-level therapists and case workers, then we get the more complex and challenging aspects of mental illness handled by the least trained.

Thank you!
 
If psychiatry doesn't continue to maximize, develop, and utilize the "soft skills" that Nick was discussing then it is pretty bleak. I take a lot of pride in effecting dramatic change without prescribing medications. I see the bad psychiatry every day (NPs in our community) and my psychotherapy skills beat it hands down every day of the week. Even in a disorder like schizophrenia, the medication is typically the smaller part of the puzzle. If the psychiatrist punts all of the rest to the plethora of mid-level therapists and case workers, then we get the more complex and challenging aspects of mental illness handled by the least trained.

Not to mention that algorithmic titration of medication is the part of the field most vulnerable to automation, modulo liability issues. Harder to see a simple computational solution to those softer skills.
 
I don't think that(for most of us frustrated) that's it at all. Yeah a dermatologist who excises a nasty looking skin problem may get 'bored' doing that for the 20th time that week, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that your intervention has made a very real and tangible difference in the patient's health and quality of life. A lot of the things we do, whether routine or not, just don't provide that.
If you are not having a real and tangible effect on your patients' lives, then you are probably missing the mark somehow. I have a patient who has lost 100 pounds over the course of our treatment and his weight wasn't specifically targeted, but that is pretty tangible. Another patient who is horribly disfigured is no longer afraid to go out in public. I get at least one new teenager every couple of weeks who is slicing themselves up on a daily basis to stop cutting. Half the consults for suicidality feel better just after I provide them some empathic listening and with that connection about half will follow up for more treatment to address some of the causal factors. The other half continue to use substances. For me the really difficult part of this job is when the patients don't show up because then I really can't help them. When they do show up, they will improve - one way or another. One reason why I like inpatient settings is that it's harder for them to avoid me. 😡
 
If psychiatry doesn't continue to maximize, develop, and utilize the "soft skills" that Nick was discussing then it is pretty bleak. I take a lot of pride in effecting dramatic change without prescribing medications.
I just want to make a plug for the fact that those "soft skills" are also necessary in encounters when we DO use medications. Even in visits primarily devoted to medications, if you're not working in psychotherapeutic approaches, you've lost opportunity. The "soft skills" should never be ignored.
 
I see the bad psychiatry every day (NPs in our community) and my psychotherapy skills beat it hands down every day of the week.
Maybe I'm nitpick-y, but I'd argue that psychiatry is administered only by psychiatrists.

I realize that in psychology, the title of "psychologist" is no longer only held by clinical PhDs and PsyD's (or at least this is what I'm told, I still reserve the term), but a psychiatrist remains a residency-trained MD/DO. A PA or NP can identify as a Psychiatric PA or Psychiatric NP, but neither is a psychiatrist and by extension I would argue that neither practices psychiatry. Internists and Family Practitioners provide psychiatric medications but they would not argue that they practice psychiatry either.

Maybe it's not important, but I don't want to see "psychiatry" become synonymous with "psychopharm." It's not accurate, in my book. And I'm not an anti-NP/PA by any stretch and feel they provide a useful service.
 
Maybe I'm nitpick-y, but I'd argue that psychiatry is administered only by psychiatrists.

I realize that in psychology, the title of "psychologist" is no longer only held by clinical PhDs and PsyD's (or at least this is what I'm told, I still reserve the term), but a psychiatrist remains a residency-trained MD/DO. A PA or NP can identify as a Psychiatric PA or Psychiatric NP, but neither is a psychiatrist and by extension I would argue that neither practices psychiatry. Internists and Family Practitioners provide psychiatric medications but they would not argue that they practice psychiatry either.

Maybe it's not important, but I don't want to see "psychiatry" become synonymous with "psychopharm." It's not accurate, in my book. .

but the reality is, to at least a large degree, that is how the system is somewhat set up.
 
If psychiatry doesn't continue to maximize, develop, and utilize the "soft skills" that Nick was discussing then it is pretty bleak. I take a lot of pride in effecting dramatic change without prescribing medications. I see the bad psychiatry every day (NPs in our community) and my psychotherapy skills beat it hands down every day of the week. Even in a disorder like schizophrenia, the medication is typically the smaller part of the puzzle. If the psychiatrist punts all of the rest to the plethora of mid-level therapists and case workers, then we get the more complex and challenging aspects of mental illness handled by the least trained.

agreed, but again.......you are talking about skills that NOBODY would argue medical school and the medical model is required for. Other mental health professionals can bring these same(and usually do to a greater extent) soft skills to the table as well.
 
I just want to make a plug for the fact that those "soft skills" are also necessary in encounters when we DO use medications. Even in visits primarily devoted to medications, if you're not working in psychotherapeutic approaches, you've lost opportunity. The "soft skills" should never be ignored.
Completely agree, although I will say that I kind of hate the fact that we are even referring to these as "soft skills". That can equate to anyone who is caring and empathetic. The psychotherapy skills that we employ are thoughtfully, carefully, and skillfully applied within the context of the case conceptualization which includes medications, as well. It can also include being forceful, direct, and even harsh at times. Conceptualizing the interpersonal matrix of what we are doing and how what we do affects the other brings it to a whole other level.
Maybe I'm nitpick-y, but I'd argue that psychiatry is administered only by psychiatrists.

I realize that in psychology, the title of "psychologist" is no longer only held by clinical PhDs and PsyD's (or at least this is what I'm told, I still reserve the term), but a psychiatrist remains a residency-trained MD/DO. A PA or NP can identify as a Psychiatric PA or Psychiatric NP, but neither is a psychiatrist and by extension I would argue that neither practices psychiatry. Internists and Family Practitioners provide psychiatric medications but they would not argue that they practice psychiatry either.

Maybe it's not important, but I don't want to see "psychiatry" become synonymous with "psychopharm." It's not accurate, in my book. And I'm not an anti-NP/PA by any stretch and feel they provide a useful service.
In some states. there are School Psychologists who don't have doctorates, but for the most part we have protected the title of psychologist. Not so much the brand though. I like your point about psychiatry and psychiatrists, but I wonder if the PMHNP down the hall would agree that they are not practicing psychiatry? Heck, they think they are doing psychotherapy every time they tell their patients what to do.
 
Completely agree, although I will say that I kind of hate the fact that we are even referring to these as "soft skills". That can equate to anyone who is caring and empathetic. The psychotherapy skills that we employ are thoughtfully, carefully, and skillfully applied within the context of the case conceptualization which includes medications, as well. It can also include being forceful, direct, and even harsh at times. Conceptualizing the interpersonal matrix of what we are doing and how what we do affects the other brings it to a whole other level.

In some states. there are School Psychologists who don't have doctorates, but for the most part we have protected the title of psychologist. Not so much the brand though. I like your point about psychiatry and psychiatrists, but I wonder if the PMHNP down the hall would agree that they are not practicing psychiatry? Heck, they think they are doing psychotherapy every time they tell their patients what to do.

whatever they are doing or not doing, they(whether we like it or not) have the ability to churn out 99214s......and that means they are going to have more value than most psychologists and have a value similar to most psychiatrists.
 
Heck, they think they are doing psychotherapy every time they tell their patients what to do.

Dear lord, this is exactly my experience with the NPs around here. Some patient's see this kind of life coaching as helpful, but it's not psychotherapy.
 
Lets not conflate cash value with value. Incomes are nice, but a poor measure of value added sometimes.
 
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