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Fellow pre-med is asking me to help him cheat on a midterm
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QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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If I could turn my patients in to someone for cheating, I totally would do it. Like, in a NYC heartbeat.
Edit: OP, that dude is a ***** for asking you to help him cheat, and you did the right thing by turning him in. Now let the prof handle it and forget about it. How's that for a clear cut answer? 😛
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I once had a similar situation and just said, "No, that would make me uncomfortable." Got an email from the person later apologizing for putting me in that position and we never spoke of it again.
Sure, you had the "right" to turn this person into the professor, and I guess you already did so it's too late. But being a physician is also about having empathy and realizing that some people get desperate when they're stressed out. I think it would've been kinder to give a firm no and remind them what they're ACTUALLY asking you to do--the embarrassment at being called out by a fellow student should shame them into retreat. If they keep bothering you, that's when I think it's better to go to the professor.
Also, if this text was something like, "Hey, how was the exam? Anything to watch out for?" That's fairly reasonable banter. Most students would just answer with the appropriate vagueness. It's been a while since undergrad, but I've definitely had conversations like that, and I wouldn't call it cheating. If I have an O-chem final and tell someone who hasn't taken it yet, "Watch out for epoxides!" that literally could mean anything related to a broad topic and would BARELY give them an advantage. If I was a teacher/TA and got someone reporting a question like that, I'd be super annoyed at the reporter for wasting my time.
Sure, you had the "right" to turn this person into the professor, and I guess you already did so it's too late. But being a physician is also about having empathy and realizing that some people get desperate when they're stressed out. I think it would've been kinder to give a firm no and remind them what they're ACTUALLY asking you to do--the embarrassment at being called out by a fellow student should shame them into retreat. If they keep bothering you, that's when I think it's better to go to the professor.
Also, if this text was something like, "Hey, how was the exam? Anything to watch out for?" That's fairly reasonable banter. Most students would just answer with the appropriate vagueness. It's been a while since undergrad, but I've definitely had conversations like that, and I wouldn't call it cheating. If I have an O-chem final and tell someone who hasn't taken it yet, "Watch out for epoxides!" that literally could mean anything related to a broad topic and would BARELY give them an advantage. If I was a teacher/TA and got someone reporting a question like that, I'd be super annoyed at the reporter for wasting my time.
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I feel you with this, but with the 0 tolerance of med school admissions in regards to academic dishonesty I feel like CYA applies. There is a difference between doing something just to screw somebody and doing something to prevent yourself from being screwed. The only reason OP is in this situation where he has to make a choice is because this person put him there.
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Exactly
Well, I have to tell you that he is one of the most sensible people I've seen in the five years of being here. But you know, it still doesn't mean it's wrong to endeavor to give people some understanding. You just have to be careful with it. Too much or done in the wrong situation breeds enabling. OTOH you don't want to be too quick to throw the baby out w/ the bath water. Everyone opportunity is one in which to learn.
Nice and clear cut. 🙂
As for your patients, some might be helped by the "turn-in," while others may not, and for those latter, it could make matters worse for them. The goal is to influence them to do better for them. No it doesn't always work, but for some it may. I personally believe that many people are complicated--the lives, the bodies and brains, the social structure in which they were raise or forced to function. As a sociology professor once said to me a long time ago, "There are excuses and then there are reasons." People cross these over and the easiest thing seems to be for people to just relegate all situations to excuses and writing the person off or to become somewhat indifferent. After all, we can't let our lives become consumed by all the toxic plights of others' lives. I guess each person draws their own lines with this, which is why I didn't say the OP was wrong per se. I may have handled the situation differently, but I was not the one that had the interactions with the person, so in all fairness, I cannot say.
As to whether or not the student will deduce it was definitely the OP, that would depend upon whether anyone else was made privy to the incident--by way of discussion, showing the text to others, or even if the student has asked this same stupid request of another student. Yes, the probability indicates that the student will think of OP as the tattletale. OTOH, if he is aware that the OP has talked with others about this or if the student asked someone else to do the same thing for him, then the student could not be necessarily certain.
Personally, I have to wonder about this b/c a. OP says the student is not in trouble in the course, and b. the student, so far as we know, hasn't actually cheated--at least not as a result of the OP's interaction with him. People that tend to cheat ultimately get caught. But the professor could certainly give him another version of the test. In fact, I have seen professors do this w/ any situational anomaly where the student could not do the exam at the expected time. Most professors have ways of handling this sort of thing in anticipation of the fact that the first exam was issued, and to keep things kosher, they already have another version of the exam for those that couldn't take it at the same time. Doesn't matter if there was a death in the family or someone was just being a db. They will automatically get a different exam. Case closed.
I do think there can be an unhealthy spirit of competition between pre-meds all the way around, so.
Sure the above happens. Again, teachers also know this.
Re: the bold, exactly. If I were the professor, unless the student was harassing the OP, I'd wonder why OP didn't show initiative in taking such a grown up approach in the first place.
As I said, most professors/instructors/tas already have another version of the exam set aside for any issues in taking the exam at the assigned time. Most professors aren't nimrods. And they also know that some people genuinely have deaths in families, become ill, whatever. But b/c they can't play cop all the time, they simply have another way to avoid the potential for cheating. There are often numerous versions of exams for God's sake. In fact, some will tell you straight out in the syllabus that any change in testing will mean, for example, that you will get another version of the exam or in some cases, will have to write the whole thing out in essay. You'd be amazed at how many people detest taking all essay exams--how much they may have to write and include. And the professor can take some license in evaluating the "correctness" of the answer.
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These types of questions people ask during office hours. Or blatantly during class. No one nails them to the cross. Just saying.
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keep us posted. my imagination tends to be dark. Dont leave us hanging on the end-result.
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This thread feels like it belongs in a forum for elementary school students...
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I can just picture you now "I'm telling!!!!!", running to the teacher hoping for that gold star. Only on SDN....
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where did I defend anyone? I am just making fun of you since you are basically the personification of the annoying premed stereotype
Eh, I just think people believe you should have taken a less intense approach. In healthcare as well as other areas, it doesn't help to make enemies. Your intensity comes off as "gunnerish." Some professors may be OK with your message re: your approach, and others may simply be polite to you about it, b/c what else are they really going to say? Remember, the person, as far as you or we know, didn't actually cheat, so there was really no reason to be in hyper-alert mode about the whole thing.
You can be cool and still do the right thing. By be cool, I mean, take the high road, but don't go all Robocop. I am not convinced that such an approach was in order. I mean you could have told him "No! If you have concerns about the exam, you need to take them to the professor or ta, and if you continue to hound me about it, I will block your texts." That would have sent the message that needed to be sent.
You can be cool and still do the right thing. By be cool, I mean, take the high road, but don't go all Robocop. I am not convinced that such an approach was in order. I mean you could have told him "No! If you have concerns about the exam, you need to take them to the professor or ta, and if you continue to hound me about it, I will block your texts." That would have sent the message that needed to be sent.
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Christ you guys. Trying to cheat is bad, it isn't only problematic when they are successful. If a TA catches a kid trying to sneak out a copy of the exam from office hours, you think it's appropriate to say well, you were only trying but didn't get away with it, so no need to take punitive action? The root issue is that the student is willing to be dishonest and violate the academic integrity of their classes, regardless of whether they get away with it.
The kid probably asked around from whoever else he knows in class for tips on the test. Choosing not to share anything is certainly expected of everyone he asks, but not guaranteed. The best way to protect the integrity of the class/exam is just to give the prof a heads up so they can use a different test version.
The stereotype being fulfilled here is with all the people that accept ****ty unethical gunner behavior in their peers as just a natural part of premed culture. It's actually the exception for someone to try and stop the dinguses
The kid probably asked around from whoever else he knows in class for tips on the test. Choosing not to share anything is certainly expected of everyone he asks, but not guaranteed. The best way to protect the integrity of the class/exam is just to give the prof a heads up so they can use a different test version.
The stereotype being fulfilled here is with all the people that accept ****ty unethical gunner behavior in their peers as just a natural part of premed culture. It's actually the exception for someone to try and stop the dinguses
No one has said what he did was right. Some are missing the point.
If you want to rationalize an overreaction, and that is how some of us feel about your approach in this particular instance, than go on ahead.
Honestly, its not worthy of all the time, emotion, and energy you've invested.
1. You don't know if the dude cheated.
2. Profs and such usually have other exams they administer when there is a date change--regardless of the reason.
3. You're spinning your wheels over this, and as you continue to do so, you continue to come off as somewhat gunnerish.
4. This is one test in an UG social science course.
5. Newsflash: if a person wants to cheat, they are going to cheat. So don't help them cheat! No one person here has said that you should have helped him cheat! Cheaters will get caught. If they get away with it, they will probably try to cheat again. Every time they cheat the probability improves that they will get caught--especially as the stakes get higher.
6.It's kind of hard to cheat your way through licensing and board certification exams. At the end of the day, who is the guy hurting?
7.He is hurting his own career and ability to be a sound practitioner.
8.Put the the competitive pre-med crap aside and move past this thing. Like all things, one way or another, this too shall pass.
If you want to rationalize an overreaction, and that is how some of us feel about your approach in this particular instance, than go on ahead.
Honestly, its not worthy of all the time, emotion, and energy you've invested.
1. You don't know if the dude cheated.
2. Profs and such usually have other exams they administer when there is a date change--regardless of the reason.
3. You're spinning your wheels over this, and as you continue to do so, you continue to come off as somewhat gunnerish.
4. This is one test in an UG social science course.
5. Newsflash: if a person wants to cheat, they are going to cheat. So don't help them cheat! No one person here has said that you should have helped him cheat! Cheaters will get caught. If they get away with it, they will probably try to cheat again. Every time they cheat the probability improves that they will get caught--especially as the stakes get higher.
6.It's kind of hard to cheat your way through licensing and board certification exams. At the end of the day, who is the guy hurting?
7.He is hurting his own career and ability to be a sound practitioner.
8.Put the the competitive pre-med crap aside and move past this thing. Like all things, one way or another, this too shall pass.
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I think the fact that they asked for specific questions makes it slightly worse than just a "Hey any tips on chapters or concepts to focus on?"
OP isn't in a gang, annoying pre-med is not their ride-or-die homie. They didn't break a blood oath by "snitching."
OP isn't in a gang, annoying pre-med is not their ride-or-die homie. They didn't break a blood oath by "snitching."
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1. Like I said, the attempt itself is a problem. This is why getting caught while trying to cheat is bad - it doesn't matter that you failed, you've shown you are dishonest
2. Some do, but some will administer the same exam
3. You are just as active in the conversation
4. Getting one IA for one cheating instance kills an app for good reason - as I said above, it's indicative of a root dishonesty problem
5. That's a terrible attitude. Cheaters don't always get caught, especially when people take your type of position and say I don't have to report anything, they'll get caught later...
6. Someone who is capable of passing MCAT/step/etc may still cheat in undergrad out of laziness. Do you really not see how an unethical physician can hurt people other than themselves?
7. Only if he's caught.
8. Again, bad attitude. You shouldn't sit by and constantly pass the buck to some future instance that will bust them.
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you read one person's post about how a school's policy might interrupt you not doing anything as persecuting you for the same cheating, and took that as confirmation bias for what you were going to do anyways. In reality no one would have known, and that policy has been exercised, never. How is it comprising your future career if you were never going to dole out the answers.
I was/am on an ethical panel/honor council for 4 years of IB Program, 2 more now of college. No one was asking you to comprise your career. How the heck would someone prove that you saw that text message and didn't report it if you don't reply to it ? This is exactly why we don't go after these types of cases. and have NEVER bothered to follow them up. the one person that is like you on our council gets always shot down by every other person to persecute to the highest order (i.e., give them a double FF, 250 community hours, can we recommend expulsion ?). They would pursue the death penalty for something like stealing (or use a sabre to cut off the arm that was used to steal). Every time they talk, for everyone else in the room its "check your emails on the phone time". I cant wait for them to graduate.
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On the flip side, there are colleges that take academic honesty policies extremely seriously - Washington and Lee comes to mind, and I think mehc012's LAC was similar - that would think it is totally appropriate to deal out harsh punishments to any and all cases of cheating, even something like asking your friends to tell you what was on a test. Just different cultures I suppose, different ideologies about the importance of student integrity
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Thats a very honest look at it. I hope just for the student's sake, she gave him a much much much harder test. I really believe all of these instances can be solved on the professors end. During my orgo semester, I decided to look at the answer key of the final makeup exam. It was the same as snippets from the all of the already posted keys of the exams that were taken over the semester. I was o__o
A big part of this burden falls on the professors. People will cheat just like there will always be crime. Actively trying to decrease this is everyone's role.
Very true. The suicides related to cheating at my uni are extremely silent. They are handled internally and they never see the day of light. I think because of this we are very open to finding a solution and really ask ourselves if the person acted under pressure, would they do this again, how can we help them. I guess you could say we are a very forgiving atmosphere because we have stupid rules like you cant copy a molecular structure from anyone, despite the use of the same program for all the students. For some classes, they all have to draw the same glycerol. There is absolutely no way to prove anyone copied a universally indistinguishable structure that is computer-formulated. So we dont nail anyone for these, but simply have a conversation with them regarding the issue, as well as mandate cheating seminars (you can imagine these almost never come up due to their nature).
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I don't think you can factor in a student's depression/suicide risk when deciding to flag their transcript with an IA though. You certainly would want to do everything you could to get mental health care access, but you can't go soft on people for fear that they'll hurt themselves. That becomes a dangerous game of passing the buck again, since now they can fly under the radar into the much higher pressure, greater stakes realm of med school and practice...the IA for cheating needs to be there to warn adcoms, period. Premeds are aware of the risks involved in cheating, and if you really can't resist the pressures you shouldn't be continuing down that path
Those sort of take-home assignments should always be intended for groups! That's a stupid rule indeed.
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I have always tried to report obvious cases of cheating to professors. The problem is that it can be near impossible to prove unless the professor notices something fishy with people having the same answers. If there were people whispering in the back of the lecture hall during an exam and the professor could not hear it, other classmates never report it. When I do, the professor thanks me but does not take action because it can't be proved and no one else will come forward to report it out of fear of being a snitch.
I feel that it is always good student ethics to report academic dishonesty, especially when it relates to a profession that requires a great deal of integrity. In your case, I believe you have every right to turn the person in. However, like others have said, maybe you should have just told him that you won't do it because it is wrong. If he still cheated after telling him that, then definitely report it.
I feel that it is always good student ethics to report academic dishonesty, especially when it relates to a profession that requires a great deal of integrity. In your case, I believe you have every right to turn the person in. However, like others have said, maybe you should have just told him that you won't do it because it is wrong. If he still cheated after telling him that, then definitely report it.
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That is why we implemented the rule that a serious violation is mandatory to attend mental health session. We aren't going soft on them to that regard, I think we have taken a more social councilor approach to things. Like you said some places dont give you a chance to rebuttal, no one allows a lawyer because universities have been given a special realm of persecuting these cases, and others are more lenient. If you copy and paste a sentence, you likely wont get a double FF. you will get a zero on the assignment, and sometimes the discretion is with the professor to choose subsequent punishment. Sometimes professors give recommendations on what to do, and we follow these closely. I think we are not keen on giving IAs because they do carry so much weight, so you have to be absolutely sure. You cant have doubt surrounding a case. There has to be definitive proof.
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Interesting, so if you had a clear-cut case of proof of cheating, say a heavily plagiarized term paper, the student might still end up with only an F or W unless the professor recommends an IA?
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That's a very commendable approach. We often take a harsh punitive approach to things rather than trying to address underlying issues. Depending on the severity of the case, I feel schools should give students a chance to explain themselves, and university resources should be used to address factors that led to the action while also seeking to prevent further misconduct. A person's career shouldn't be thrown under the bus for one minor infraction unless it was particularly egregious. Even then, the student should always be given the right to voice their side of the story. In cases where self-harm is likely following academic punishment, universities should provide counseling.
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We pretty much require the professor speaks on it. If a comment is not submitted, we often ask for one. Heavily plagiarized goes against the example I gave of having one line copied. For example, if you submitted an entire essay that was not your own. You pretty much will receive FF across the board. If you copied a sentence, there is a debate. You can imagine, sometimes people are not aware of what is even cheating. Even if you reword some else's thoughts, you are cheating. But these instances are less severely punished than someone who was so lazy that they turned in their friend's paper from a previous semester. The nuances are limitless, and every case turns out to be unique.
In the cases you mentioned u will 100% get a FF.
High Schools dont do enough to educate on these nuances. Also it has been even brought up that socioeconomic issues might be at play. If you went to a public school you got probably zero on academic honestly. If you went to private school, you likely got a ton of it. Took a whole class on it. Its not enough to give a powerpoint presentation at orientation and say, we are all on the same level now.
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Exactly. Of course cheating is wrong, but there is something to be said about overreacting in these scenarios as well.
