Fellow pre-med is asking me to help him cheat on a midterm

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Doudline said:
Cheating on typical multiple-choice questions or short answers test does not phase me. These tests are virtually worthless, and the only reason people cheat is because we, as a society, have an obsession with numerical grades and standardized testing. It's alienating.

I do not cheat myself nor actively support others doing it, but I understand their plea and certainly wouldn't report them to the prof.
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The USMLE is a "typical multiple-choice" exam.
 
I wouldn't say anything. It will catch up to him in the end. If he has to cheat on a UG Psych test what on Earth is he going to do during the MCAT, Med School, USMLE? He can't cheat all the time.
 
Goro said:
Many medical schools have honor codes that go something like this:

"I will not cheat nor tolerate anyone who does."

Whaddya think of that?
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I like it a lot, and wish undergrad schools had the same policy
 
walloobi said:
I think you may have misread my post, I never considered helping him cheat. My dilemma was whether or not to report his cheating attempt my professor, not whether or not to say "no" to the student
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Don't bother saying anything. You've got no proof, guy hasn't technically done anything but ask.
 
Lost in Translation said:
The USMLE is a "typical multiple-choice" exam.
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I couldn't care less about someone else cheating on step 1 tbh.

The USA is one of the only Western countries with such a ridiculous admission system -in college, medical school and residency- for a reason.
 
Doudline said:
I couldn't care less about someone else cheating on step 1 tbh.

The USA is one of the only Western countries with such a ridiculous admission system -in college, medical school and residency- for a reason.
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Yeah that's why our universities and medical educations are some of the worst in the world right
 
efle said:
Yeah that's why our universities and medical educations are some of the worst in the world right
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1. Correlation =/= causation;
2. research funding =/= education.
 
walloobi said:
He asked me to jeopardize my future by helping him cheat; I don't owe him assistance in accessing "student services," nor is it my place to diagnose him with learning disabilities and justify his dishonesty based on that.
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I did not say you should diagnose him. I am saying be human and realize that sometimes people are just being lazy, while other times it is something else. Either way, what do you think is the best way to handle this? It's UG psych. It's not a physical chemistry course. He is obviously wrong; but sometimes it can be productive to answer a question with another thought-provoking question. Either way, you put it back on him. You don't have to jump to get him. If he doesn't get the message, OK. Do what you think is right. But I agree with the person above. If this person is having trouble w/ a ug psych course, he either has some kind of issues, or he's just being a lazy db.

What I meant was that you don't have to jump to bad cop with him. It's a good lesson in dealing with people/patients, b/c believe it or not, you will find a number of patients that don't want to take responsibility for themselves for one reason or another. So I say, try to go w/ being human first.

OTOH, be a hardazz and do what you want. But when someone tries to put you in a bad position, it's not wrong to try to get them to think for a second about what they are asking and why--especially if they are young and foolish. It's not about owing. It's about being human. Once you put it back on him in a human way, you are done w/ it and can move forward with your business.
 
efle said:
Yeah that's why our universities and medical educations are some of the worst in the world right
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I mean our universities and education overall are definitely overrated. Our only "world class" level education is in our Ivy leagues. Thats about it.

China, Some parts of India and some parts of Europe have us beat.

Dont even get me started on our Joke K-12 Public "Education" system.
 
Doudline said:
1. Correlation =/= causation;
2. research funding =/= education.
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It's a negative argument not an argument for causality or necessity. If standardized exams were a useless way to assess, a system built around them couldn't consistently put together world-class student bodies / maintain excellent reputations / predict ability to pass med school at extremely high rates etc. I don't even know what research funding has to do with this, our med educations are very respected for their quality not for occurring at research giants.

But hey to each their own. If you think being able to cheat throughout college / on the MCAT / on steps would have no negative consequences, you may as well tell me you staunchly believe the earth is flat, its a position a little too far out there for even me to take the bait on 😛
 
jl lin said:
I did not say you should diagnose him. I am saying be human and realize that sometimes people are just being lazy, while other times it is something else. Either way, what do you think is the best way to handle this? It's UG psych. It's not a physical chemistry course. He is obviously wrong; but sometimes it can be productive to answer a question with another honest question. Either way, you put it back on him. You don't have to jump to get him. If he doesn't get the message, OK. Do what you think is right. But I agree with the person above. If this person is having trouble w/ a ug psych course, he either has some kind of issues, or he's just being a lazy db. What I meant was that you don't have to jump to bad cop with him. It's a good lesson in dealing with patients, b/c believe it or not, you will find a number of patients that don't want to take responsibility for themselves for one reason or another. So I say, try to go w/ being human first. OTOH, be a hardazz and do what you want. But when someone tries to put you in a bad position, it's not wrong to try to get them to think for a second about what they are asking and why--especially if they are young and foolish. It's not about owing. It's about being human. Once you put it back on him is a human way, you are done w/ it and can move forward with your business.
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I don't care what his reasons were, and I don't care what the difficulty of the course is. By the way, he's not struggling very much in the course at all; he did quite well on the first exam. It's not as if he's afraid of failing and feels backed into a corner, and sees cheating as the only way out. Now that I think of it, I have significantly less empathy for a cheater who doesn't need to cheat to succeed, than for someone who has no other possible path to "success."

Also, he's certainly not "young and foolish." He's 25 or 26, and would have outgrown this kind of behavior by now if it was simply due to immaturity or uncharacteristic impulsivity.

I'm not "jumping to get him," nor am I playing "bad cop," being a "hardazz," or being inhumane. In fact, I'm not all that upset with him for trying to cheat. It's simply that I respect my teacher, my classmates, and the integrity of the medical field, and since I don't have much respect for him anymore, I feel that the decision of his fate should be in my teacher's hands, not mine. She's reasonable and compassionate, and I trust her to make the right call, whatever that may be.

I emailed my teacher to let her know what happened, and I stand by my decision.

Thank you to those of you who encouraged me to do what I felt was right, in spite of stigmas against "snitches."
 
walloobi said:
I don't care what his reasons were, and I don't care what the difficulty of the course is. By the way, he's not struggling very much in the course at all; he did quite well on the first exam. It's not as if he's afraid of failing and feels backed into a corner, and sees cheating as the only way out. Now that I think of it, I have significantly less empathy for a cheater who doesn't need to cheat to succeed, than for someone who has no other possible path to "success."

Also, he's certainly not "young and foolish." He's 25 or 26, and would have outgrown this kind of behavior by now if it was simply due to immaturity or uncharacteristic impulsivity.

I'm not "jumping to get him," nor am I playing "bad cop," being a "hardazz," or being inhumane. In fact, I'm not all that upset with him for trying to cheat. It's simply that I respect my teacher, my classmates, and the integrity of the medical field, and since I don't have much respect for him anymore, I feel that the decision of his fate should be in my teacher's hands, not mine. She's reasonable and compassionate, and I trust her to make the right call, whatever that may be.

I emailed my teacher to let her know what happened, and I stand by my decision.

Thank you to those of you who encouraged me to do what I felt was right, in spite of stigmas against "snitches."
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OK, so then you did what you thought was best. That's fine. BTW, 25 or 26 really isn't all that much older. Some people take longer to grow up. You may mellow a bit. 😉
 
walloobi said:
I don't care what his reasons were, and I don't care what the difficulty of the course is. By the way, he's not struggling very much in the course at all; he did quite well on the first exam. It's not as if he's afraid of failing and feels backed into a corner, and sees cheating as the only way out. Now that I think of it, I have significantly less empathy for a cheater who doesn't need to cheat to succeed, than for someone who has no other possible path to "success."

Also, he's certainly not "young and foolish." He's 25 or 26, and would have outgrown this kind of behavior by now if it was simply due to immaturity or uncharacteristic impulsivity.

I'm not "jumping to get him," nor am I playing "bad cop," being a "hardazz," or being inhumane. In fact, I'm not all that upset with him for trying to cheat. It's simply that I respect my teacher, my classmates, and the integrity of the medical field, and since I don't have much respect for him anymore, I feel that the decision of his fate should be in my teacher's hands, not mine. She's reasonable and compassionate, and I trust her to make the right call, whatever that may be.

I emailed my teacher to let her know what happened, and I stand by my decision.

Thank you to those of you who encouraged me to do what I felt was right, in spite of stigmas against "snitches."
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Lol this is absurd. I get the honor code and honesty, trust me. But good luck when you're a physician and you encounter patients that lie, are liars, unfaithful and of the sorts. If he's too lazy to study, chances are he was going to get railed anyways.
 
Also, he didn't technically cheat. He did not actually do anything to gain an unfair advantage. He ATTEMPTED to which is different than cheating. If you don't have the texts or proof, much of what you said was hearsay.
 
jl lin said:
OK, so then you did what you thought was best. That's fine. BTW, 25 or 26 really isn't all that much older. Some people take longer to grow up. You may mellow a bit. 😉
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Perhaps, but a lot of people are already doctors by the time they're 26, I think that should be old enough to avoid making decisions that could potentially ruin your education and career just because you're too lazy to study hard.

Regardless, I appreciate the open-mindedness; this topic has been pretty polarizing and you seem to acknowledge both sides pretty reasonably.
 
hopefulERdoc251 said:
Lol this is absurd. I get the honor code and honesty, trust me. But good luck when you're a physician and you encounter patients that lie, are liars, unfaithful and of the sorts. If he's too lazy to study, chances are he was going to get railed anyways.
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The standards for patients are different from the standard for colleagues. It is not incongruous to treat patients well despite their flaws while not accepting the same flaws from coworkers or fellow students.
 
Terry Toma said:
The standards for patients are different from the standard for colleagues. It is not incongruous to treat patients well despite their flaws while not accepting the same flaws from coworkers or fellow students.
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I agree it is different. But if OP is going to get worked up over something this silly, he has a rude awakening once he steps out into the real world when quite frankly, nobody gives a ****. If your coworker does something slightly unethical to gain an advantage over you, then tough nuts, he'll still get the promotion over you.
 
hopefulERdoc251 said:
Also, he didn't technically cheat. He did not actually do anything to gain an unfair advantage. He ATTEMPTED to which is different than cheating. If you don't have the texts or proof, much of what you said was hearsay.
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He said earlier it was a request the guy was stupid enough to send in text.


hopefulERdoc251 said:
I agree it is different. But if OP is going to get worked up over something this silly, he has a rude awakening once he steps out into the real world when quite frankly, nobody gives a ****. If your coworker does something slightly unethical to gain an advantage over you, then tough nuts, he'll still get the promotion over you.
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People do in fact give a **** about physicians having good ethics. There is a reason cheating IAs are total app killers. A doc asking a peer to help them do something illegal/unethical, even if small and only to their benefit, is not something you want everyone all blase about
 
hopefulERdoc251 said:
I agree it is different. But if OP is going to get worked up over something this silly, he has a rude awakening once he steps out into the real world when quite frankly, nobody gives a ****. If your coworker does something slightly unethical to gain an advantage over you, then tough nuts, he'll still get the promotion over you.
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For the record, I'm not worked up at all.

And claiming that we shouldn't advocate for justice, just because some level of injustice will always exist, is a very sad and misguided argument.
 
walloobi said:
If I'm being honest, I'm actually somewhat worried about an aggressive or violent reaction from him
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That's interesting. What has he done to make you think this, and don't you think your professor, whom you admire, might protect you from this, if possible, by keeping your name out of it? These things are usually handled in a step-like manner. So unless she has had other concerns about him, why would this one offense escalate to the point that you'd have to be named?

Look, I'm not saying you are right or wrong. I am just saying if this was my first incident w/ this person, I may have handled it differently, like I said in my original post in this thread...sarcastic smile, raised eyebrow, walk away. If the dude still doesn't get it, print a copy of the honor statement that is nowadays often required for students to sign. If he's still dense after that, you just say, "Sorry no, stop harassing me," and then, especially b/c of the harassment, report to professor. OTOH, with some people, you have to take the strong, "Sorry no!" approach first time out. Every situation is not the same and every person is not the same, so, that's where judgment comes in to play. It's a judgment call based on what you have experienced with the person.

This is a reach of an example, but it makes some related sense to me. Some girls will jump right to reporting the first flirtatious comment in the workplace or school to officials as sexual harassment. Now granted there is and should be zero tolerance for this type of thing. No question. I'm not saying they necessarily shouldn't; but I have found ways to handle this that gets my point across without risking needless escalation. If a girl can spare someone's feelings w/o putting herself at risk, I feel like it's a good thing to do so. If you know how to assert yourself in the right way, you can even do it many times with a smile and look of the eyes that doesn't suggest at all that the other person can safely try it again.

OTOH, if the woman is dealing with someone more seriously problematic, she needs to report it right away. It's just that some folks don't know how to discern people and the situations, and it certainly can get tricky. I have won over guys as friends by not making them feel like foolish pieces of shI+ b/c their hormones were getting the best of them in a moment or b/c they found me easy to speak with. But it's like a six sense with some folks, where that alarm goes off and their behaviors, words, and their facial affects tell you, um, "No. Don't even try to take the strong but nice approach with this person." These are the hairs standing up on the nap of your neck kind of people.

So it's fair that you decided to go with what you thought was best, b/c after all, you are the person that had interactions with this person. We haven't. I try to look at people and things in balance. I am a born empathizer, but fortunately for me, there is also a built-in caginess and intuition that has protected me.

If you are saying this guy hasn't had any real issues, but is just being a db, I am not at all saying you are wrong. In fact, if he had otherwise been doing well in the course, one wonders why he would even ask you for such "help" in the first place, other than he wants to party or spend more time jumping people's bones, or maybe, IDK, God forbid, taking care of a sick relative or having to work extra hours. See, my point is, you just don't know. But you are not wrong; b/c as I said, you are the one that has has the interactions with him. All we can go by are bits and pieces that are posted. I like writers like Dostoevsky, b/c they see that people and their situations are not always black and white. And then, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. *shrug*

Anyway, you took care of things, and hopefully you won't have any negative flack from it. 🙂
 
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Lol how many times have you witnessed something unethical in the ED or in an office? Let me ask you, if a doctor is evaluating a resident note, and the resident is placing a suture but the doctor is not there for the procedure, yet co-signs the chart saying that he/she was there for the procedure...is that unethical?

Let me clarify, I AM NOT ENDORSING WHAT THIS GUY DID, but at the same time, if you see him do it, I hope you report everybody else who does it/you see do it.
 
Wow why are people so uptight?
No need to screw over someone for one little mistake.
I personally would have said no I can't help you and moved on. We're not in elementary school anymore. It's not necessary to tell the teacher. I feel like your approach was overly aggressive but that's just my opinion.
 
efle said:
It's a negative argument not an argument for causality or necessity. If standardized exams were a useless way to assess, a system built around them couldn't consistently put together world-class student bodies / maintain excellent reputations / predict ability to pass med school at extremely high rates etc. I don't even know what research funding has to do with this, our med educations are very respected for their quality not for occurring at research giants.
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I'll keep doing bullet points for clarity's sake.

1. The student body is not "world-class". American high school students, who constitute over 90% of college attendees, score in the top 20 in none of the PISA tests categories. The measure is not perfect, but it's quite speaking nonetheless;
2. rankings are based on two things: research monies and reputation. Literally. And considering who responds to these surveys -profs and deans-, what do you think enters in calculation for reputation? Research again (and the famed "mystique");
3. strong competence at standardized test-taking tends to last. It speaks to reason that a person who scores well on a test (MCAT) is going to score well on a similar test (STEP 1) later in time. It does not objectively speak to who has learned the most, who will be the more competent physician, etc. It's a very engineered and artificial definition of success.

What leads you to believe that the quality of medical education here is better than it is in France, Germany, the UK, Canada, etc?
There is absolutely no objective measure, to my knowledge, that speaks to this... unless you equate quality of education with research.

(And it is equated thus very liberally by almost everyone. Do you think it's some random luck that the "best" medical schools in the US share only a single characteristic - size of NIH grants and other research funds?)
 
Terry Toma said:
The standards for patients are different from the standard for colleagues. It is not incongruous to treat patients well despite their flaws while not accepting the same flaws from coworkers or fellow students.
Click to expand...


The point is in dealing with people, it's not always clear cut or a cookie cutter kind of approach--for patients, colleagues, family, whomever. It's about learning to deal with people, who are usually imperfect. Except for @Mad Jack and @mimelim--also @QofQuimica. 😀 Their coolness raises them to a level of near perfection--sorry to put that kind of pressure on you all. 😉
 
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walloobi said:
I don't see things as black and white either, but I also trust that my professor doesn't see things in black and white, and can handle this situation better than I can, so I've left it up to her.

And I'm sure my professor will keep my name out of any confrontations with him, but if I happen to be the only person he went to for help cheating, it'll be obvious that I was the one who told her. Either way, his potential negative reaction shouldn't have any bearing on my decision to tell my teacher, or her decision to handle this however she thinks it should be handled. If he responds irresponsibly to any consequences that come his way, that again will be on him, and only him.
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Assuming no one else was made privy to the situation.
 
1. Didn't mean to imply all schools everywhere are world class. Again I am not arguing causality or necessity, there very likely is an equally good or better method. I'm pointing out that the world class schools we do have select heavily by standardized test scores and grades. Also, isn't PISA heavily multiple choice and standardized...? By your own argument that would be terrible evidence!
2. I never mentioned anything about rankings.
3. A reasonably high MCAT serves as an extremely good predictor for graduating med school. Obviously can't speak as much to how good steps are as a minimum proficiency check, but at least for the MCAT you're into flat earth territory claiming it is not actually measuring anything useful for admissions to know.

I think the nations you mention also have excellent medical education. Guess what's also heavily involved in selecting for med students there?

Again, you can drop the rant about research and ranks, I'm also of the opinion it doesn't matter much
 
walloobi said:
I didn't screw him over; if my teacher decides to punish him, he will have screwed himself over. And how could you possibly consider the act of reaching out to someone to help you cheat, jeopardizing their education and future in the process, a "mistake?"

You're absolutely right, this isn't elementary school; people are held to higher ethical standards now, and the long-term repercussions of dishonesty are much more severe, and should be treated as such.
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I understand your argument. I just think you need to chillax. I feel like you're the type of person that would arrest someone for jaywalking...
 
walloobi said:
If I'm being honest, I'm actually somewhat worried about an aggressive or violent reaction from him
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u should be. Because when he posts here we will derail his thread with "choose another career option". I am just saying. Not trying to guilt-trip you into being quiet, but this is likely the reason everyone has been telling you to stay neutral. Your big guns (LizzyM) personally told you to basically stay neutral.

I was also just part of a committee enforcing that all cheating violations be followed up with a visit to the school mental health clinic, because every semester we have 1-5 people kill themselves because "their academic career is essentially over".

You could easily hand their arse to them in various creative ways people posted here. Judging by your last post, it almost seems you are angry they would end up doing better than you....

Just move on. You have more important things. Semester is winding down, focus on getting straight As, not making sure someone else doesnt.
 
walloobi said:
I don't see things as black and white either, but I also trust that my professor doesn't see things in black and white, and can handle this situation better than I can, so I've left it up to her.

And I'm sure my professor will keep my name out of any confrontations with him, but if I happen to be the only person he went to for help cheating, it'll be obvious that I was the one who told her. Either way, his potential negative reaction shouldn't have any bearing on my decision to tell my teacher, or her decision to handle this however she thinks it should be handled. If he responds irresponsibly to any consequences that come his way, that again will be on him, and only him.
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Sure your professor won't include your name, but if you're the only person he texted for help then he will automatically know it's you lol. It doesn't require a genius to know that.
 
jl lin said:
The point is in dealing with people, it's not always clear cut or a cookie cutter kind of approach--for patients, colleagues, family, whomever. It's about learning to deal with people, who are usually imperfect. Except for @Mad Jack and @mimelim--also @QofQuimica. 😀 Their coolness raises them to a level of near perfection--sorry to put that kind of pressure on you all. 😉
Click to expand...
Well I went with @mimelim 's advice, so whaddya think of that? 😉
 
hopefulERdoc251 said:
Sure your professor won't include your name, but if you're the only person he texted for help then he will automatically know it's you lol. It doesn't require a genius to know that.
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That's exactly what I said in the second half of the post you quoted 😕
 
walloobi said:
Actually, LizzyM just made a joke, and Goro encouraged me to do what I ended up doing, supported by gyngyn and mimelim. Saying that "everyone has been telling me to stay neutral" is far from the truth. Again, I didn't want to "hand his arse to him," I just wanted to put the decision of what to do in the hands of my professor.
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Just to be clear. Thats not what I said. I said this is exactly the reason why everyone said stay neutral. Quoting your violence post. Everyone has been telling you to say nothing BECAUSE it might invoke violence, drama, extra time wasted, etc.

LoL will you admit at least that you felt that sharing this with your professor was gonna get you looked at favorably....
Gahhhhh. Good luck.

This is why threads like the one below are kept away from us:

Would you use NZT-48 if you can have nearly perfect pre-clinical grades and USMLE Step 1 score?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-48-to-use-in-classes-and-for-step-1.1169303/

"I thought this might be a fun thread, especially in the Allo forum, since people in pre-allo are all going to say that they would never do something like this."
 
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