Fellowships after Emergency Medicine

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Waterlover

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Wondering what you all think about more people in EM pursuing fellowship, and what fellowships you think are good to pursue out of EM. Over half of my co-residents are pursuing fellowship this year. Do you think this is the future of EM?

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Wondering what you all think about more people in EM pursuing fellowship, and what fellowships you think are good to pursue out of EM. Over half of my co-residents are pursuing fellowship this year. Do you think this is the future of EM?
After being out for a few years, I went back and did a Pain fellowship. I'm happy I did. There's a whole thread on it that you might find informative.
 
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Yeah, I think a lot of people are going to be doing fellowships in the future. I would if I was in training now and didn't have a hookup into a sdg. Anecdotally, I seem to have seen many sdgs looking for EMS or US fellowship trained people.

CC is obviously the best fellowship to go for (only one to escape this dumpster fire of a field).

Admin if you want to move over to the dark side.
 
CC is the best if you want to do an EM fellowship and still have to work nights, weekends and holidays the next 30 years.
Weekends and holidays sure. As for nights, a lot of icus these days don’t have the doc in house at night, but a mid level.
 
Weekends and holidays sure. As for nights, a lot of icus these days don’t have the doc in house at night, but a mid level.
Will it stay that way? Is Medicine trending towards being a 24-hr service or the opposite?

I'm old enough to remember when no attending radiologists were reading at night. Now, most of the ones I know, have to take night shifts.
 
Maybe an ICU doc can comment on this, but the trend that I have seen for ICU nights is going in the opposite direction. There used to be more ICU docs working nights in the community then there are now, with more midlevels there at night. Same goes for a lot of hospitalists. There's also a 'virtual ICU' thing going on, but I still don't understand how the hell that works...
 
Maybe an ICU doc can comment on this, but the trend that I have seen for ICU nights is going in the opposite direction. There used to be more ICU docs working nights in the community then there are now, with more midlevels there at night. Same goes for a lot of hospitalists. There's also a 'virtual ICU' thing going on, but I still don't understand how the hell that works...
If that is the trend, that's great for ICU docs. But it seems to me that's a house of cards. It seems to me liability concerns plus patient demand/patient satisfaction would apply pressure for 24-hr physician coverage, and win out in the long run. I could be wrong.

Is critical care being sold as "lifestyle specialty" like EM now, too?
 
I don't think so, because you'll still work weekends and holidays as an ICU doc.
 
Maybe an ICU doc can comment on this, but the trend that I have seen for ICU nights is going in the opposite direction. There used to be more ICU docs working nights in the community then there are now, with more midlevels there at night. Same goes for a lot of hospitalists. There's also a 'virtual ICU' thing going on, but I still don't understand how the hell that works...
How comfortable are you with your midlevel managing critical patients while you watch....virtually
Yeah, I think a lot of people are going to be doing fellowships in the future. I would if I was in training now and didn't have a hookup into a sdg. Anecdotally, I seem to have seen many sdgs looking for EMS or US fellowship trained people.

CC is obviously the best fellowship to go for (only one to escape this dumpster fire of a field).

Admin if you want to move over to the dark side.
I don't see how being ultrasound trained benefits a group unless it's academic and you have residents that need teaching
 
After being out for a few years, I went back and did a Pain fellowship. I'm happy I did. There's a whole thread on it that you might find informative.
Do you still practice EM at all or are you all Pain now? What's that lifestyle like?
 
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Do you still practice EM at all or are you all Pain now? What's that lifestyle like?
All Pain.

Lifestyle = Derm

-Stress reduction, 90%

-Hours: Mon -Thurs, 8-12, 1 hour lunch break, then 1pm to 3:30/4:30ish (depending on day). Friday, 8am - 12pm
No nights, no weekends, no holidays, no call. Ever.

-2 days, all procedures. 2.5 days, clinic, mostly pre-/post-procedural stuff, very minimal [but some] opiates)
 
CCM is a tremendous field and one that lends itself well to people who trained in EM, but I think people who are going into it as a way out from EM are making a terrible mistake. CCM is just as prone to the corporate takeover as EM is. The hours are long, and exhausting, and the additional training is no joke. Sometimes I wonder if the love for CCM in this forum is a product of "grass is always greener" mentality.

I did an EMS fellowship. I don't think its a bail out from EM per se, and I will probably make less money over the course of my career. Jobs in the field aren't easy to come by, especially not the classic big city medical director positions, but there are definitely other opportunities in the field and exciting things going on. My biggest hope is that I can do more EMS stuff which is primarily administrative, and as a result, buy down clinical time in the ED as get older.

I have a handful of friends who I went to residency with that did US fellowships. Unless you are creating an US program at a site, doing QA/QI, billing for POCUS studies, etc, there's no utility to doing an ultrasound fellowship IMO. Most of my friends in clinical practice who are US trained don't use the additional year of training in their practice.

Toxicology is a phenomenal fellowship, one that is very niche, highly academic and desirable but still with opportunities to get out and go into industry. Probably has less utility in the community world, but still a great gig.

Why anyone would do wilderness/hyperbarics etc is beyond me.
 
Yeah, I think a lot of people are going to be doing fellowships in the future. I would if I was in training now and didn't have a hookup into a sdg. Anecdotally, I seem to have seen many sdgs looking for EMS or US fellowship trained people.

CC is obviously the best fellowship to go for (only one to escape this dumpster fire of a field).

Admin if you want to move over to the dark side.

CCM has many of the same logistical draw backs of EM (need for 24/7/365 care, hospital-based, corporate/PE-creep/involvement, high stress cases, etc.).

I guess for now it doesn't have as much soul-sucking customer service elements (by definition the vast majority if your patients are actually very sick/not full of ****).
 
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no call. Ever.

I'm curious (never going to do pain management personally) but how is there no call?

I get that the call would be pretty low-key but, If you do procedures on patients what do you do if someone has a post-procedural problem or complication? Doesn't someone have to be available to at least talk to the patient? Is it just an automated message telling them to go to the ER immediately if they are worried they are having a problem?

Even my friend who is exclusively a Moh's surgeon (don't know how but they do literally ZERO general practice derm) takes call for the unusual post procedure complications (dehissence, infection, bleeding).
 
Why anyone would do wilderness/hyperbarics etc is beyond me.
It's only an n of 1, but a guy I did residency did a hyperbarics fellowship. It's allowed him to do hyperbarics and run a hyperbarics fellowship, while reducing his general EM shifts down to 2 per month. The last time I talked to him, he was hella happy with the decision. We were both in agreement about how much happier we were since our fellowships.
 
I'm curious (never going to do pain management personally) but how is there no call?

I get that the call would be pretty low-key but, If you do procedures on patients what do you do if someone has a post-procedural problem or complication? Doesn't someone have to be available to at least talk to the patient?
I get maybe 1 after hours call every 6 months (maybe?) I've never had a call after 8 pm. I've never had a procedural complication that couldn't be dealt with by saying, "Show up at the office 8am tomorrow and we'll take a look."

I think I had more calls during non-work hours when I was an ER doc and people still viewed me as a "real doctor" who could be acutely useful to them. Friends, neighbors, calling, "Hey I did____, what should I do?" or "Hey, Bobby banged his leg. There's no way it could be broken if he's still walking on it, right?"

In almost 10 years post fellowship I've had to go to the hospital, after hours, a total of: Zero times. Serious complications after hours are theoretically possible, but very rare.

If that can be considered "call," I suppose it's a 0.1 on a scale of 0-1,000.
 
I've talked w/ a couple of SDGs who were specifically looking for US-trained people in order to start up a program for billing for bedside US. Also, seems like there's some interest in EMS-trained people to serve as a medical director in order to solidify relationships.

It might be grass-is-greener syndrome, but I feel like CCM will be markedly better under corporate control than EM. The future of CMG controlled EM is going to be trying to out-compete other kiss-asses for better PG scores while taking on insane medmal risk nominally supervising an army of pretend-level providers for 140/hr. Whereas, at least day-to-day practice in CC might look more or less the same as it does now.
 
It might be grass-is-greener syndrome, but I feel like CCM will be markedly better under corporate control than EM. The future of CMG controlled EM is going to be trying to out-compete other kiss-asses for better PG scores while taking on insane medmal risk nominally supervising an army
of pretend-level providers for 140/hr.

I'm not in CCM but I don't know why you think the future of CCM would look any different. The people soon-to-be in charge don't care about medical outcomes. So cheaper=better. Also the patients may be intubated, sedated, and amnestic, but their family members who can and will write reviews are not. If the corporate goons can make a number to follow (even better if it's unachievable and hence never high enough) they will.
 
I know a guy that did an Undersea/Hyperbarics fellowship, and he does wound care now with it. I guess, when you dive a decubitus at 3 ATM, it gets better!
I can confirm this, I'm not sure what the market wit large looks like, but the main application for hyperbarics in the community is wound care. I live in Texas (hundreds of miles from diving/ocean in any direction) and our community hospital has a hyperbarics program for wound care management (no oceans, but we do have a lot of obese/diabetics/vasculopaths with chronic wounds). As far as I know we have never used our chambers to treat a decompression sickness. It seems safe to assume given the epidemiology of this country, chronic wounds are going to continue to proliferate in my career span and treatment of them may be a growing clinical area.
 
I'm not in CCM but I don't know why you think the future of CCM would look any different.
As another poster pointed out in another thread, the ICU is one place where the interests of the doctor, hospital and CMG can align. It is resource intensive, and keeping people in there for futile care is bad for everyone's bottom line, and the hospital/CMG will be more willing to do what it takes to get people out that don't need to be there.
 
Hyperbaric means a business hours gig doing wound care. Build your own business, work daylight hours, and minimal stress. It's everything people here clamor for without all the murky ethics of medical spas and testosterone clinics.


One of my pet peeve is seeing doctors serve as "medical director" for these spas. Most of these spas are owned by MBAs or midlevels. Like why take all the risk and give away most of the benefits? I'd rather own the business.
 
Fellowships are swell. I'm glad I did one.

That said, I encourage anybody unhappy in EM to not just think about fellowships/other areas of medicine but also non-clinical careers.

EM docs have a wealth of clinical and non-clinical skills applicable to a TON of jobs outside the ED.

The only way an EM doc becomes "trapped" in the ED is if he/she won't take a leap to make a change.
 
Fellowships are swell. I'm glad I did one.

That said, I encourage anybody unhappy in EM to not just think about fellowships/other areas of medicine but also non-clinical careers.

EM docs have a wealth of clinical and non-clinical skills applicable to a TON of jobs outside the ED.

The only way an EM doc becomes "trapped" in the ED is if he/she won't take a leap to make a change.
Good post. I agree.
 
Fellowships are swell. I'm glad I did one.

That said, I encourage anybody unhappy in EM to not just think about fellowships/other areas of medicine but also non-clinical careers.

EM docs have a wealth of clinical and non-clinical skills applicable to a TON of jobs outside the ED.

The only way an EM doc becomes "trapped" in the ED is if he/she won't take a leap to make a change.
Which skill in particular lend themselves to which non-clinical professions? It seems that most recommendations on websites (ie side hustles, alt income ideas, etc.) seem to point towards something medically adjacent with examples being grant writing, healthcare utilization, or hospital admin to name a few. Is there anything that you had in mind which is non-clinical AND non-healthcare related which employs either clinical or non-clinical EM skills?
 
I'm wondering when we're going to see the first Waiting Room Emergency Medicine fellowship created. Not only can you learn about the physician-in-triage (PIT) concept, but you can also learn the treat-and-street up front (TASUF) concept, which is also known as "lounge medicine."
 
Which skill in particular lend themselves to which non-clinical professions? It seems that most recommendations on websites (ie side hustles, alt income ideas, etc.) seem to point towards something medically adjacent with examples being grant writing, healthcare utilization, or hospital admin to name a few. Is there anything that you had in mind which is non-clinical AND non-healthcare related which employs either clinical or non-clinical EM skills?

Are you an ER doc? For the sake of brevity, think about all the things a typical pit doc has to do every day on shift. To complete ER tasks you need to: exercise critical thinking skills under pressure to quickly survey a situation and ascertain (sometimes creatively) relevant information-->synthesize it into a plan-->quickly gain patients trust-->dispo/consult/admit/transfer the patient while breaking through systems/red tape/personalities actively trying to block you; assemble and lead teams; have critical conversations/deliver bad news; make everybody happy; be efficient; be able to effectively communicated with people from all walks of life; constantly learn and apply new information to improve decision making/task completion; always keep track of the turkey sandwiches ; problem solve problem solve problem solve under conditions and in situations that few can really understand unless they've lived it.

Skills like these.

Notice how none of them involve placing a tube or a line, interpreting a gas, or actual medicine?
 
Are you an ER doc? For the sake of brevity, think about all the things a typical pit doc has to do every day on shift. To complete ER tasks you need to: exercise critical thinking skills under pressure to quickly survey a situation and ascertain (sometimes creatively) relevant information-->synthesize it into a plan-->quickly gain patients trust-->dispo/consult/admit/transfer the patient while breaking through systems/red tape/personalities actively trying to block you; assemble and lead teams; have critical conversations/deliver bad news; make everybody happy; be efficient; be able to effectively communicated with people from all walks of life; constantly learn and apply new information to improve decision making/task completion; always keep track of the turkey sandwiches ; problem solve problem solve problem solve under conditions and in situations that few can really understand unless they've lived it.

Skills like these.

Notice how none of them involve placing a tube or a line, interpreting a gas, or actual medicine?
Agree with your post. A lot of the skills you develop as an EP have nothing to do with sheer emergency medical knowledge or procedural ability. You’d think that would easily translate to a non-medical field. There isn’t another environment like the ED though where I can visualIze this combination of skills mattering. The best example I can think of is a restaurant server. However, it’s usually a one way direction from that to an EP. What non-medical type of job benefits from this skill set that has some degree of prestige, compensation and satisfaction? (Forewarning, you may not want to tell us as there is a looming oversupply of EPs who might compete with you for these jobs.)
 
Agree with your post. A lot of the skills you develop as an EP have nothing to do with sheer emergency medical knowledge or procedural ability. You’d think that would easily translate to a non-medical field. There isn’t another environment like the ED though where I can visualIze this combination of skills mattering. The best example I can think of is a restaurant server. However, it’s usually a one way direction from that to an EP. What non-medical type of job benefits from this skill set that has some degree of prestige, compensation and satisfaction? (Forewarning, you may not want to tell us as there is a looming oversupply of EPs who might compete with you for these jobs.)

I have no specific list of non-clinical jobs in mind. There are tons of lists on this if you search around; many are boring and regurgitate the same things. My point is that EM docs shouldn't be afraid to look beyond traditional work options and pursue nearly any gig that interests them.

And FWIW re: restaurant servers...


 
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Are you an ER doc? For the sake of brevity, think about all the things a typical pit doc has to do every day on shift. To complete ER tasks you need to: exercise critical thinking skills under pressure to quickly survey a situation and ascertain (sometimes creatively) relevant information-->synthesize it into a plan-->quickly gain patients trust-->dispo/consult/admit/transfer the patient while breaking through systems/red tape/personalities actively trying to block you; assemble and lead teams; have critical conversations/deliver bad news; make everybody happy; be efficient; be able to effectively communicated with people from all walks of life; constantly learn and apply new information to improve decision making/task completion; always keep track of the turkey sandwiches ; problem solve problem solve problem solve under conditions and in situations that few can really understand unless they've lived it.

Skills like these.

Notice how none of them involve placing a tube or a line, interpreting a gas, or actual medicine?
Good luck getting a non-entry level job with those "skills"
 
Good luck getting a non-entry level job with those "skills"

Have you ever had to interview applicants for a job? If somebody has attributes like those--and are not a sociopath or chronically late for work-- they will stand out from much of the job-seeking pack.

Maybe you will have to take an entry level job someplace to start. Such is life. Many will still pay 6 figures and some can have a high ceiling over time. If you're intelligent and at all motivated (which the vast majority of docs are) you'll likely excel up the foodchain over time. I don't expect anybody to hand me an upper management gig at Facebook, Deloitte et al because I'm a physician. Did you expect to be handed the ET tube and a blade the first time you set foot in the ED as a medical student?
 
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Have you ever had to interview applicants for a job? If somebody has attributes like those--and are not a sociopath or chronically late for work-- they will stand out from much of the job-seeking pack.

Maybe you will have to take an entry level job someplace to start. Such is life. Many will still pay 6 figures and some can have a high ceiling over time. If you're intelligent and at all motivated (which the vast majority of docs are) you'll likely excel up the foodchain over time. I don't expect anybody to hand me an upper management gig at Facebook, Deloitte et al because I'm a physician. Did you expect to be handed the ET tube and a blade the first time you set foot in the ED as a medical student?

Yeah, this is typical of AB's posts. My favorite one was when he/she declared that "de-escalation techniques would clearly have worked" in an actively violent or shooter situation. I wonder how many degrees in crisis management, de-escalation or ass-kicking he/she has to be such an authority.
 
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Have you ever had to interview applicants for a job? If somebody has attributes like those--and are not a sociopath or chronically late for work-- they will stand out from much of the job-seeking pack.

While I love to toot EM's horn as much as the next guy, I think you may be underselling the general professional job seeker here. I mean, the skills you've described essentially a amount to being a good problem solver, being a good communicator, being motivated, being efficient, and working well under pressure--skills you can hone in many walks of life. For a lot of desirable positions, these skills aren't a plus that make you stand out, they're a minimum.

Why hire a career-switcher with these skills when you can instead hire someone else with comparable skills but also experience in the field? That's the barrier we need to overcome. Is it impossible? No. Many people have done it before, but it's nowhere near as straightforward as some here make it sound. In a sense, you need a good bit of luck to run into an open-minded higher-up who won't immediately throw away your CV. A connection also helps.
 
Yeah, this is typical of AB's posts. My favorite one was when he/she declared that "de-escalation techniques would clearly have worked" in an actively violent or shooter situation. I wonder how many degrees in crisis management, de-escalation or ass-kicking he/she has to be such an authority.

Yeah, I'm basically trying to encourage people to not feel trapped if they're not enjoying their present career. Nothing more. People don't have to listen.

While I love to toot EM's horn as much as the next guy, I think you may be underselling the general professional job seeker here. I mean, the skills you've described essentially a amount to being a good problem solver, being a good communicator, being motivated, being efficient, and working well under pressure--skills you can hone in many walks of life. For a lot of desirable positions, these skills aren't a plus that make you stand out, they're a minimum.

I'm not here to say EM docs are special flowers I'm saying EM docs have a lot of raw ingredients that are very applicable to other fields. You're correct that these skills can indeed be honed elsewhere. None of this changes the fact that these skills are a) not ubiquitous and b) appealing to employers outside of the ED.

Why hire a career-switcher with these skills when you can instead hire someone else with comparable skills but also experience in the field? That's the barrier we need to overcome. Is it impossible? No. Many people have done it before, but it's nowhere near as straightforward as some here make it sound. In a sense, you need a good bit of luck to run into an open-minded higher-up who won't immediately throw away your CV. A connection also helps.

There's no doubt that luck and connections can play a role--that's true for getting any job, EM included. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. I never said it's straightforward. Just trying to point out to people that going from EM to non-clinical is very doable and if somebody isn't happy in EM/clinical medicine they don't need to grin and bear it. Life is short and transitioning out of the ED isn't like going to the moon or something (although a few astronauts have been EM docs). But hey no need to listen to some rando like me from the internet.
 
I'm saying EM docs have a lot of raw ingredients that are very applicable to other fields.
This is very true. It's hard to see when you're on the inside. But from the outside, it's very obvious. There's a perception that "if you can handle being an Emergency Physician, you can handle anything." There's a lot of truth to that perception.
 
How difficult is it to get an Addiction Med fellowship out of EM?
 
Man, I'm too lazy to entertain the thought of doing a fellowship. I can't imagine having to do morning rounds on patients and report to an attending at my age. I'll keep plugging away in the pit and hopefully can strike FIRE in 10 years before the entire specialty goes belly up. If I can reliably match my EM income through investments for 3 years in a row, I would strongly consider retiring early.
 
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Man, I'm too lazy to entertain the thought of doing a fellowship. I can't imagine having to do morning rounds on patients and report to an attending at my age. I'll keep plugging away in the pit and hopefully can strike FIRE in 10 years before the entire specialty goes belly up. If I can reliably match my EM income through investments for 3 years in a row, I would strongly consider retiring early.
My ED job was so painful, my fellowship year felt like a vacation. But it sounds like you have a good plan that will work well for you.
 
My ED job was so painful, my fellowship year felt like a vacation. But it sounds like you have a good plan that will work well for you.
I feel you. I've gotten somewhat numb to the ED at this point and the thought of re-training to do anything else just exhausts me. Luckily, I'm not one of the types that needs a formal job to find meaning in retirement. I'd be perfectly happy as a full time investor. I'm not quite there yet but hope to be in a few years.
 
I feel you. I've gotten somewhat numb to the ED at this point and the thought of re-training to do anything else just exhausts me. Luckily, I'm not one of the types that needs a formal job to find meaning in retirement. I'd be perfectly happy as a full time investor. I'm not quite there yet but hope to be in a few years.

That's how I feel too. Although I still oddly enjoy the ER. It's good for my ADD.

Of course if my investments could make me 300K/year, I would quit immediately. LMAO
 
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