Final NRMP Psychiatry Rank Order Lists

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ilg1 said:
Thanks to both of you for the info, it certainly helped! What you said about having the right fit, strong ites, and it being a crap shoot makes sense and sounds pretty similiar to applying to medical school in that regard. Assuming one doesn't go to a pass/fail school, out of curiosity what is like an average GPA in medical school? 3.0ish?

I did look at a few other threads and your Step scores seem pretty insane lol. Correct me if I am wrong but the average national step 1 score is ~230 and the average matching score into psychiatry is ~220, so theoretically if I have say a 235ish, some research, decent letters/ECs, ok grades, at a mid-low tier university would I be within striking distance of a top program?

Would either of you say that a publication is essential for some of the top programs or would merely doing some research with no publication be just fine?
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Away rotation, my friend. I had exactly those stats that you hypothetically cited and didn't get any interviews at what might be called a top program save for the one I did an away Sub-I at. The familiarity of having worked with a good number of folk I think really helped me on interview day, and I received what sounded like a fairly encouraging and non-generic "You'd be a good fit here, and we hope the feeling is mutual" type email afterward. Granted, I concentrated my interview efforts more on the west coast than the east coast, but still. If you've got a program you are absolutely gunning for in your heart of hearts, sign up for that away rotation!
 
I had classmates in the 235s who didn't do aways and got interviews at UCSD, NYU, UW, Stanford, Longwood, Cornell, and Columbia, for whatever that's worth. I'm at a top 15ish medical school though, which always helps. As for pubs, helpful when your numbers are lower. Wait until match day to get a better idea of where folks end up though!
 
scudiera said:
I had classmates in the 235s who didn't do aways and got interviews at UCSD, NYU, UW, Stanford, Longwood, Cornell, and Columbia, for whatever that's worth. I'm at a top 15ish medical school though, which always helps. As for pubs, helpful when your numbers are lower. Wait until match day to get a better idea of where folks end up though!
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For screening purposes, psychiatry seems more into medical school prestige and name than others (for example, I remember urology had a pretty specific Step 1 cutoff that you could only get around with away rotations or a Nobel Prize in some urethral related research). Just be aware of that if you're not at a top program and plan aways accordingly. Also, some programs have had good experience with some schools and will draw from them (and vice versa).

Anyway, congrats on the lists and good luck everyone! Glad to see so many people who would be happy at so many programs.
 
nereids said:
1. Iowa--stay near family, husband loves job, great opportunities in Intellectual Disabilities w/ new ID unit and plan to expand curriculum
2. Wisconsin--Madison is a great fit, research in my field, strong psychotherapy, had everything I wanted
3. Michigan--great reputation, great facilities, great benefits, another livable family-friendly city
4. Northwestern--very impressed by full-day didactics and development of faculty as teachers, great facilities
5. WashU--great place to develop as an academic physician
6. University of Chicago--not a good fit for me
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You will be very happy on match day, great top 5!
 
withoutface123 said:
Away rotation, my friend. I had exactly those stats that you hypothetically cited and didn't get any interviews at what might be called a top program save for the one I did an away Sub-I at. The familiarity of having worked with a good number of folk I think really helped me on interview day, and I received what sounded like a fairly encouraging and non-generic "You'd be a good fit here, and we hope the feeling is mutual" type email afterward. Granted, I concentrated my interview efforts more on the west coast than the east coast, but still. If you've got a program you are absolutely gunning for in your heart of hearts, sign up for that away rotation!
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Thanks I will remember that!
 
I interviewed all over and (maybe?) wasted a lot of money but at the end of the day location/ "real life" stuff/realizing that I have little interest in academic medicine in the long term became more important to me than I thought it was going to be in September.
 
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withoutface123 said:
Away rotation, my friend. I had exactly those stats that you hypothetically cited and didn't get any interviews at what might be called a top program save for the one I did an away Sub-I at. The familiarity of having worked with a good number of folk I think really helped me on interview day, and I received what sounded like a fairly encouraging and non-generic "You'd be a good fit here, and we hope the feeling is mutual" type email afterward. Granted, I concentrated my interview efforts more on the west coast than the east coast, but still. If you've got a program you are absolutely gunning for in your heart of hearts, sign up for that away rotation!
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ilg1 said:
Thanks I will remember that!
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An away rotation is generally unnecessary in psych, and doing one will guarantee you neither an interview (depending on the program) nor a match. Also, bear in mind that you actually have to perform well on the rotation- you have to be amicable and intelligent yet not overbearing and constantly proving you know more than your resident/intern. You have to stay engaged and take initiative but not to the point that its "over eager med student". Also, you can't be mentally checked out. We have had people really stand out and elevate themselves (who based on academic records were strong applicants anyway) and some people totally blow any chance they had at being ranked highly. So, if you know how to play the med student game and are willing to spend the time and money (depending on the city sub leasing can get $$$$), go ahead, but you need to take an honest look at yourself before you do it.

Step 1 and clerkship performance remain and will always be the most performance. Publications look nice as well. Everything else is nice but not requisite and far less important than academic performance (rec letter from famous psychiatrist, away rotation, geographic ties, whatever)
 
HarryMTieboutMD said:
An away rotation is generally unnecessary in psych, and doing one will guarantee you neither an interview (depending on the program) nor a match. Also, bear in mind that you actually have to perform well on the rotation- you have to be amicable and intelligent yet not overbearing and constantly proving you know more than your resident/intern. You have to stay engaged and take initiative but not to the point that its "over eager med student". Also, you can't be mentally checked out. We have had people really stand out and elevate themselves (who based on academic records were strong applicants anyway) and some people totally blow any chance they had at being ranked highly. So, if you know how to play the med student game and are willing to spend the time and money (depending on the city sub leasing can get $$$$), go ahead, but you need to take an honest look at yourself before you do it.

Step 1 and clerkship performance remain and will always be the most performance. Publications look nice as well. Everything else is nice but not requisite and far less important than academic performance (rec letter from famous psychiatrist, away rotation, geographic ties, whatever)
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I mean...I thought it was implied that one should obviously work hard on their away rotation, but perhaps I should have been more explicit that, no, an away rotation isn't an automatic golden ticket to an interview/high rank. I'm just reporting what worked for me with regard to this reach program, and I was reminded several times that said program didn't offer interviews to every visiting student. Who knows what'll happen next Friday, I'm probably full of delusions, and y'all are more learned than I am from the other side.
 
HarryMTieboutMD said:
An away rotation is generally unnecessary in psych, and doing one will guarantee you neither an interview (depending on the program) nor a match.
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For competitive programs, away rotations aren't particularly helpful for non-competitive applicants looking to match.

They are most helpful for applicants whose applications are not stellar but "strong," along with the bulk of other applicants to these programs. In that case, if away rotators work hard, do good work, are personable, and make a good impression, the recommendations from faculty at the program will pick them up out of the crowd.

But like Harry said in his post, this assumes that the applicant is capable of doing these things. There is also the issue that most competitive programs are also looking for culture and fit. Some rotators would make a great resident, just not at a particular program. And that might become obvious when someone rotates through.
 
ilg1 said:
I am a naive incoming M1 student with a strong interest in the field of psychiatry. Understanding that psych is not exactly the most difficult speciality to match into, many of you have listed very impressive sounding residency programs. I was wondering in terms of grades, step 1 scores, research etc. what does someone have to do to be competitive for a Longwood, Penn, UCLA, Stanford etc.? A response or PM would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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I interviewed at some of those programs as well. To an incoming M1 student, I would echo what everyone said above. Basically, focus on doing well on your classes and Step 1 for now. Even though psych doesn't require the grades/scores as the more competitive specialties, it can still help you stand out. To further make yourself stand out for those upper tier programs you listed, I would recommend doing some research or having some significant involvement in some community endeavors as well. When I read the profiles of the residents of those programs, pretty much all of them were accomplished people outside of the classroom as well. But never sacrifice grades/board scores for extracurricular activity. Know your limits.

Good luck!
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
Wow, really? Is this a normal thing?

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Let's think about the dynamics of this--most visiting rotators are coming from a weaker school to a stronger program (like splik's). If they were coming from a "strong" school--known name, quality, US university, etc.--they generally would not need an "away" rotation. So the visiting student has to already deal with unfavorable comparisons to students from the program's home university medical school, and then find a way to "achieve without obnoxiously overachieving" as an outsider in an unfamiliar system. It's really a setup for devaluing your stock instead of increasing it.
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
Wow, really? Is this a normal thing?

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile
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Unlikely some other specialties there's not really any expectation that a med student should do an away rotation at the institution they're interested in, so as OPD said a lot of people who do aways are people who aren't in the strongest position to begin with. I've always said that if you have a strong application on paper that you're more likely to hurt yourself with an away than to help. The only situation I could see doing an away is if your grades are not great due mostly to being a bad test-taker, but have been told by every attending and resident you've worked with that you are very strong clinically (and not just that you think you're very strong clinically). Also, you have to be someone who can adapt to a new system very quickly, and not need to spend a whole month just to figure out how a new EMR/hospital system works. I don't think many people fit that description, but in that case, doing an away might get your application a more careful read when it would otherwise have been screened out due to low board scores and/or grades.
 
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that away rotations can be helpful. I'm a very average applicant in terms of stats from an unknown midwest state school but did an away at an ivy league affiliated school and got "honors with distinction" (which is the highest category for their medical students). I feel like because I worked hard and got along well with everyone, the clerkship evals as well as my letter of rec from there helped open a lot of doors for me and I interviewed almost exclusively on the east coast.

So if you feel confident enough in your clinical abilities and know that you can get along with almost anyone, I would actually recommend doing an away because the worst that could happen is you'll learn a lot from a different perspective and new faculty.
 
I'm going to chime in here.
The advice I got before going in to 4th year was, "You are so good on paper that you can probably only hurt yourself by doing away rotations." That being said, my husband lives in a different state, and away rotations were a free ticket to getting to live in the same place for a few months, which was something that I was *not* willing to give up, so I did two away rotations with my 1st choice program. I got "honors with distinction" in both, and it was mentioned as a positive at my interview, even with my otherwise very strong application.

I wouldn't do them just to do them, but if you have a reason to want to be in a place, go for it.
 
Monocles said:
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that away rotations can be helpful. I'm a very average applicant in terms of stats from an unknown midwest state school but did an away at an ivy league affiliated school and got "honors with distinction" (which is the highest category for their medical students). I feel like because I worked hard and got along well with everyone, the clerkship evals as well as my letter of rec from there helped open a lot of doors for me and I interviewed almost exclusively on the east coast.
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Pursuitofsanity said:
I'm going to chime in here.
The advice I got before going in to 4th year was, "You are so good on paper that you can probably only hurt yourself by doing away rotations." That being said, my husband lives in a different state, and away rotations were a free ticket to getting to live in the same place for a few months, which was something that I was *not* willing to give up, so I did two away rotations with my 1st choice program. I got "honors with distinction" in both, and it was mentioned as a positive at my interview, even with my otherwise very strong application.
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So, obviously this won't help me, but it could help my brother or some other person reading this thread. And I'm really curious what it takes to get "honors with distinction". I never quite understood how to "play the med student game" as someone put it earlier. Can you guys offer any advice or general pointers?
 
For fun, any others willing to share their ROLs?
 
Rogue Penguin said:
So, obviously this won't help me, but it could help my brother or some other person reading this thread. And I'm really curious what it takes to get "honors with distinction". I never quite understood how to "play the med student game" as someone put it earlier. Can you guys offer any advice or general pointers?
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HD is relatively common for 4th year rotations. Exceptions being very competitive specialties and especially emergency med (thanks to the SLOR.) Just so it's clear, F/P/H/HD maps to F/P/HP/H at other institutions.

Other than that, I think just working hard and being personable goes a long way. Good to have most of the nuts and bolts down (presentations, note writing, etc.). In psych, it's important that you're good with patients/interviewing.
 
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1. UNC Chapel Hill
2. Brown
3. Utah
4. MGH
5. UVA
6. UCLA
7. UCI
8. Harbor UCLA
9. Florida
10. Arizona
Then a few more but I forget the order
 
FlowRate said:
Great list. Utah is such a gem of a program--just noticing that it's high on a lot of lists ITT.
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Ya it was a great place. Was number 1 on my list for a while but I dropped it down a little just due to its geographic isolation and I don't ski haha
 
psychvet said:
Ya it was a great place. Was number 1 on my list for a while but I dropped it down a little just due to its geographic isolation and I don't ski haha
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Same. Though it dropped further down my list. I was in love with the program for a while, but, as an ex-mormon, my S.O. is very strongly opposed to the location. I tried to change her mind.
 
Rogue Penguin said:
So, obviously this won't help me, but it could help my brother or some other person reading this thread. And I'm really curious what it takes to get "honors with distinction". I never quite understood how to "play the med student game" as someone put it earlier. Can you guys offer any advice or general pointers?
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to be honest it's red flag if you don't get honors doing a 4th year psych elective - most everyone does. in fact some attendings will give the most awful students honors because they just don't care or it's less hassle. no one really pays much attention to 4th year grades. what might matter is getting a strong letter of recommendation. I put my list of Do's and Don'ts for away rotations elsewhere - but the key take home is: "It's not what you know, it's who you don't annoy"
 
Oh, ok fine, twist my arm.

1) UCLA-Semel
2) USC
3) UCLA-SFV
4) Home program
5) Kaiser-SoCal
6) OHSU
7) Mayo
8) Harbor-UCLA
9) California Pacific
10) UCI
11) Georgetown

Yes, definite geographic bias, and a lot of gut feelings at play. Most of you might cringe at Harbor being so low but, honestly, gut feeling.
 
Top 5 were:
1. Columbia
2. Mount Sinai
3. Johns Hopkins
4. Georgetown
5. Harvard Longwood

I really loved the NYC programs although I'd be happy at any of these. What ended up deciding it was proximity to family combined with my "feeling" (however subjective and inaccurate) about the place. I think I had a slightly less favorable impression of Longwood compared to others for some reason.
 
ExcaliburPrime1 said:
Top 5 were:
1. Columbia
2. Mount Sinai
3. Johns Hopkins
4. Georgetown
5. Harvard Longwood

I really loved the NYC programs although I'd be happy at any of these. What ended up deciding it was proximity to family combined with my "feeling" (however subjective and inaccurate) about the place. I think I had a slightly less favorable impression of Longwood compared to others for some reason.
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What other NYC area programs did you rank?
 
ExcaliburPrime1 said:
Top 5 were:
1. Columbia
2. Mount Sinai
3. Johns Hopkins
4. Georgetown
5. Harvard Longwood

I really loved the NYC programs although I'd be happy at any of these. What ended up deciding it was proximity to family combined with my "feeling" (however subjective and inaccurate) about the place. I think I had a slightly less favorable impression of Longwood compared to others for some reason.
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What were the rest?
 
This feels a little wrong but here I go.

Columbia
MGH
Yale
Northwestern
Mt. Sinai
U Mich
UCLA Semel
Home program

If I list any further down than that I'd be outing myself too much.

I feel like my order of programs is pretty idiosyncratic, but factors in a lot of interview day vibe, location, and my impression of the programs' quality of training opportunities for psychosomatic medicine. Hence why Semel is so low - I am a native son of SoCal, and would've loved to live in LA, but it didn't seem like a good place to go for someone who wants rigorous medicine exposure during intern year and lots of CL, plus an in house CL fellowship. I probably would have picked MGH over Columbia if I didn't have family in NYC. Northwestern made me feel so warm and bubbly on interview day and I thought initially I might rank it first, but I wasn't sure enough about the caliber of the actual program to place it above the "name" places. That may or may not have been a mistake - who knows? I was really impressed by U of Ms program and loved the PD, residents and staff, but didn't really have any connections to be in Ann Arbor, or else i might have put it a lot higher.
 
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