Final School Decisions!!

[runnersfeet]

Ok, so I have been accepted to California, Scholl, and AZPOD - and those are the only ones I want to consider. So, with that in mind - how do I decide? I like AZPOD and Scholl the best, so I have almost elminated the one in Oakland for various reasons - mostly because cost of living, commuting, traffic, and going between oakland and SF every week does not interest me. I love AZPOD and their faculty and I think they are very on top of it as they have a lot to prove, being so new. So many people say its bad to go to a school so new, but why? They at AZPOD defend themselves well - they have faculty from all the other schools running their program..people with lots of experience and great reputations who have proved to be very effective at the other schools where they have taught. Thus, it seems obvious to me that they are going to be great at running the AZPOD program. The facilities are absolutely amazing and very modern -and everyone seems very dedicated to the profession.

Then there is Scholl - great reputation, great faculty, great facilities...no doubt. I dont love the large lecture halls for the science classes - but it is also a positive to be thrown in with the MD's too. The only down side there is that I personally tend to thrive in smaller groups for purposes of learning - and the basic science classes are HUGE there. Also, the students that toured me around there say that some professors are not the greatest and not that focused on the student - they didnt intend for this to be a negative, but rather, they were pointing out that it is your choice to go to class or not and the students dont go to the ones that they dont learn well in - they just read and study on their own time.
Anyway, hard decisions - any advice or opinions?? thanks!

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[jonwill]

AZPOD is going to be an excellent program. Besides DMU, they are the only program that has complete integration, and therefore is on par with any MD/DO program. Three of DMU's old docs are currently running the AZ program. Scholl's "integration" with the MD program is very limited but they are a lot more established than AZPOD. In 2-3 years, I would say AZPOD is the winner but it's a tough call now.

 

[oncogene]

I would pick AZPOD out of the two. It will be a good school without a doubt.

oncogene

 

[psionic_blast]

Tough choice I would probably choose to go to AzPod. Great faculty and good weather would factor into my equation. They will be accredited don't worry about that. It will be a top pod school in the not to distant future. I am sure that when you go into your residency from there they will have high 3 year surgerical placement similar to DMU. That would be my chioce, but it is also my opinion. A chioce like that should be carefully consider and thoughtfully ponder. Good luck with your chioce and let us know what you choose.

 

[runnersfeet]

Why is it "going to be" a good school...and why in 2 or 3 years, but not now? What are other peoples opinions (aside from mine) on why it has such a bright future? thanks for all of the advice/opinions thus far! still hard to decide

I would pick AZPOD out of the two. It will be a good school without a doubt.

oncogene

 

[doclm]

Why choose AZCOM over Scholl?

I understand that AZCOM has the highest board pass rates for their DO program and have affiliated professors from DMU, but honestly why care so much about the boards. At Scholl upper 90% pass their boards anyway. Also, there is going to be more POD residency openings than POD residents, so why worry so much on how high your board rates are going to be. Most likely, we all will have our choice of what type PM&S-24 or 36 residency we want and where. I believe that it is important to attend a well reputable school that has had a lot of experience placing students where they want to go.

What kind of research experience can you get at AZCOM that you cannot get at Scholl? As practicing physicians, I believe it is important for us to have some sort of foundation in research, especially now with the dramatic changes in medicine and technology.

However, more importantly than Board pass rates or research opportunities, is how well each person fits into each school environment. Since, we will have to be at a particular school for at least a few years, it is first and foremost important that we feel comfortable to academically thrive at our school of choice.

 

[gsrimport]

Why is it "going to be" a good school...and why in 2 or 3 years, but not now? What are other peoples opinions (aside from mine) on why it has such a bright future? thanks for all of the advice/opinions thus far! still hard to decide

Check you pm!

As for why 2-3 years, I suspect that AZPod hasn't graduated their first class yet so we're not 100% certain where the students get placed for their residency. I believe that most if not all the students will get one of their top choices.

 

[runnersfeet]

AZPOD just seems extremely on top of things as they have to be in order to start and run a new program - I liked how they were so focused on the pod students. The only negative I can find about it is the hot summers. The only negative I can find about Scholl is that it kind of seemed like the MD's rule the school and the POD students just kinda blend in. The students there said that they feel like that sometimes and that it shows with things like how the library is run on the MD's test schedule and not on the POD's..that would be a little annoying. However, I know it has the reputation of being a great school and I did truly like it and the faculty there. Again, this is such a hard decision.

Why choose AZCOM over Scholl?

I understand that AZCOM has the highest board pass rates for their DO program and have affiliated professors from DMU, but honestly why care so much about the boards. At Scholl upper 90% pass their boards anyway. Also, there is going to be more POD residency openings than POD residents, so why worry so much on how high your board rates are going to be. Most likely, we all will have our choice of what type PM&S-24 or 36 residency we want and where. I believe that it is important to attend a well reputable school that has had a lot of experience placing students where they want to go.

What kind of research experience can you get at AZCOM that you cannot get at Scholl? As practicing physicians, I believe it is important for us to have some sort of foundation in research, especially now with the dramatic changes in medicine and technology.

However, more importantly than Board pass rates or research opportunities, is how well each person fits into each school environment. Since, we will have to be at a particular school for at least a few years, it is first and foremost important that we feel comfortable to academically thrive at our school of choice.

 

[doclm]

AZPOD just seems extremely on top of things as they have to be in order to start and run a new program - I liked how they were so focused on the pod students. The only negative I can find about it is the hot summers. The only negative I can find about Scholl is that it kind of seemed like the MD's rule the school and the POD students just kinda blend in. The students there said that they feel like that sometimes and that it shows with things like how the library is run on the MD's test schedule and not on the POD's..that would be a little annoying. However, I know it has the reputation of being a great school and I did truly like it and the faculty there. Again, this is such a hard decision.

Hey,

If you feel the most comfortable at AZPOD, go with your gut feeling. Since school is only out of 9 months each year for the first two years, you could avoid the heat of the summer by going back home. If we were up agianst some grueling competition like MD/DO schools, I would say hands down go to the school that is the most reputable so you can get the residency that you want. However, regardless where we go, were going be able to take what every sugical residency we want. What matters the most is where do you feel that you will fit in and academically do well.

 

[runnersfeet]

Yup, thanks. I agree that it is a choice of what best fits the student - but that is my problem, I like them both for different reasons....so I will just have to spend the next week really thinking about it. AZPOD actually has classes all summer - so no summers off there....however, that is what AC if for..haha. I have a family - so wherever we move, will be home....so no going somewhere different for parts of the year...so I really have to choose based on my family too. thanks for all the help...i'll keep pondering the options

Hey,

If you feel the most comfortable at AZPOD, go with your gut feeling. Since school is only out of 9 months each year for the first two years, you could avoid the heat of the summer by going back home. If we were up agianst some grueling competition like MD/DO schools, I would say hands down go to the school that is the most reputable so you can get the residency that you want. However, regardless where we go, were going be able to take what every sugical residency we want. What matters the most is where do you feel that you will fit in and academically do well.

 

[Ski Bum]

Yup, thanks. I agree that it is a choice of what best fits the student - but that is my problem, I like them both for different reasons....so I will just have to spend the next week really thinking about it. AZPOD actually has classes all summer - so no summers off there....however, that is what AC if for..haha. I have a family - so wherever we move, will be home....so no going somewhere different for parts of the year...so I really have to choose based on my family too. thanks for all the help...i'll keep pondering the options

Both are really good schools...I am currently at Scholl and would not have changed a thing with my decision. I do not feel the class size is too big for basic science, the anatomy class is large but that is it. I also do not feel the medical school runs the show and the Pods are in the back and do not blend in...but this is my opinion. There are many opportunities at each school, but remember the quality of education you get relies on YOU...and YOUR dedication at whatever program you choose. NO school is going to gurantee you a 3 yr residency or a passing on your boards, you have to achieve that and all the schools have the tools for you for success. Whatever you decided you will be happy...let me know if you have any more specific q's about Scholl.

good luck!

 

[runnersfeet]

Thanks! What specifically do you like so much about Scholl? How do you feel about your instructors/professors there? What year are you? Do you feel like a lot of attention is focused on the pod students there?

Both are really good schools...I am currently at Scholl and would not have changed a thing with my decision. I do not feel the class size is too big for basic science, the anatomy class is large but that is it. I also do not feel the medical school runs the show and the Pods are in the back and do not blend in...but this is my opinion. There are many opportunities at each school, but remember the quality of education you get relies on YOU...and YOUR dedication at whatever program you choose. NO school is going to gurantee you a 3 yr residency or a passing on your boards, you have to achieve that and all the schools have the tools for you for success. Whatever you decided you will be happy...let me know if you have any more specific q's about Scholl.

good luck!

 

[Ski Bum]

Thanks! What specifically do you like so much about Scholl? How do you feel about your instructors/professors there? What year are you? Do you feel like a lot of attention is focused on the pod students there?

I like the facilities at Scholl and the majority of the Profs. I am a 3rd year student. I feel like there is a LOT of attention focused on us as students. There are lots of other programs at the school, so obviously not all the attention is geared towards us, but it is a very supportive enviroment, at least in my opinion. I have been really happy with the course structure, clinic, and research opportunities offered. It is nice to have the 1st summer off for research fellows, and like Temple we finish all course work in Dec of our 3rd year and spend the rest of the time in rotations / interns.

let me know if you have any more q's

 

[scpod]

Anyway, hard decisions - any advice or opinions?? thanks!

I'll just mention a couple of things that I have said to other people before. Great facilities, professors, reputations, board scores...none of that will make you a good podiatrist. The only person who can do that is you. You should pick a school based on how well you fit in there. That's why it's so important to talk to the faculty, the administration, and as many of the students as you can. It's important to look at the living conditions and associated costs. If you are truly unhappy where you are, then none of that other stuff will mean anything. It won't get you good grades, and it won't help you pass the boards, and it won't get you a good residency, and it won't help you find a good job. Remember, it's not really that hard to get into a school of podiatric medcine, but it really is hard to get out.

 

[runnersfeet]

Thanks! all very good points - much of which, I am aware. I ruled out the school in oakland bc of those reasons - i didnt feel comfortable with the lifestyle that would necessitate being successful there. Thats not to say that another student couldnt do great there - everyone I spoke to there absolutely loved it...its just wasnt right for me. However, the reason I am asking other's opinions on AZPOD and Scholl is because I do like them both and I can see myself in both locations/schools - if it were the board scores and reputation, I would have already chosen Scholl. Although, I know that I will be as successful as I will be no matter what the other student's board scores are - only I can take my own boards, so that is irrelevant to me. I just want to have a better idea of what the schools are like and what other students feel about the schools - I was in each place for my interview, but that was only for a couple of days each. I dont live in either state, so I cant spend more time at each school to just talk to students,etc. So, this seems like the next best way to gather info. Ultimately, I will have to make a decision based on my own feelings - but in the next 2 weeks, i just want to mull it over and gather as much info as I can. Its a big decision - as i will be moving for the next 4 years at a minimum. I appreciate everyone's advice/info/opinions on this forum, as that helps me get learn more about the schools.

I'll just mention a couple of things that I have said to other people before. Great facilities, professors, reputations, board scores...none of that will make you a good podiatrist. The only person who can do that is you. You should pick a school based on how well you fit in there. That's why it's so important to talk to the faculty, the administration, and as many of the students as you can. It's important to look at the living conditions and associated costs. If you are truly unhappy where you are, then none of that other stuff will mean anything. It won't get you good grades, and it won't help you pass the boards, and it won't get you a good residency, and it won't help you find a good job. Remember, it's not really that hard to get into a school of podiatric medcine, but it really is hard to get out.

 

[IlizaRob]

I'll just mention a couple of things that I have said to other people before. Great facilities, professors, reputations, board scores...none of that will make you a good podiatrist.

I just have to comment on this. I agree that you and only you will determine whether or not you will be a successful podiatrist. I mean, who would disagree with that? That is the "Cliché" of all "Clichés" of life. No one will dispute this. However, I do believe that a certain school can help you achieve your goals better than others, like pass your boards. A good indicator one could use to compare schools is the past 1st time board pass rates. Certainly it is possible that curriculum, structure, and faculty may have something to do with how well and fast you learn. Let’s take DMU for example. They maintain a 97% 1st time pass rate on part 1 boards (part 2 is the same) each year by one of two ways. Either they are better at recruiting the students that work hard and make their own education than other schools, or their curriculum and faculty teach very well, allowing the student to learn more, faster. Im not bagging on other schools, every school has its strengths. What I am trying to get across is that the school can matter. think about it. Whether or not you are comfortable in a certain city is not everything either.

And to comment on "everybody gets accepted to pod school". I can only speak for DMU in that they turn down about 75% of applicants. Seats are usually filled by December and a waiting list is then implemented.

 

[scpod]

However, I do believe that a certain school can help you achieve your goals better than others, like pass your boards. A good indicator one could use to compare schools is the past 1st time board pass rates.

Remember that statistics can lie...let me explain. There are schools that claim really high pass rates, BUT they also require that every student pass a basic sciences exam before the dean will allow them to take part one of the boards. So, what you are really seeing in those statistics is the rate of people who actually TAKE the boards, but not the rate as based on the entire class. People who cannot pass the test are not allowed to take the boards (same material), which really skews the statistics.

Further, beware of assumptions. Assumptions can make you lazy. Granted, most of us in this forum are not lazy or we would not have the GPA's and MCAT scores that we do. Still, assuming that a school with a high pass rate can give you a better chance is dangerous.

 

[psionic_blast]

Remember that statistics can lie...let me explain. There are schools that claim really high pass rates, BUT they also require that every student pass a basic sciences exam before the dean will allow them to take part one of the boards. So, what you are really seeing in those statistics is the rate of people who actually TAKE the boards, but not the rate as based on the entire class. People who cannot pass the test are not allowed to take the boards (same material), which really skews the statistics.

Further, beware of assumptions. Assumptions can make you lazy. Granted, most of us in this forum are not lazy or we would not have the GPA's and MCAT scores that we do. Still, assuming that a school with a high pass rate can give you a better chance is dangerous.

Everyone takes the boards at DMU no test or Dean holding back students. It is a 100% unadulterated statistic. If some people don't care to accept fine it doesn't bother me in the least. It is however the real deal for those of you who care. If you can make it through the first two years at DMU you will pass the boards.

 

[IlizaRob]

Remember that statistics can lie...let me explain.

Of course they can. There is an exception to every rule. However, it doesnt mean its the norm. Unfortunately Scpod, statistics is the way we (human beings) measure things, even success. No they are not completely accurate all of the time but its what we have. If a student was able to dig deep enough and find those schools who manipulate statistics, then more power to them. I didnt, and I dont think you did either. My arguement still stands. It is better to base your decision on statistics than on the entertainment available in the city in which the pod school resides. The school matters. They are not all the same. That is a fact. Which ever ones are the best is an opinion. All I am saying is that you may have to work harder on your own at one school to get the education of another.

 

[biocmp]

So what are the board pass rates for scholl? temple? AZPOD? I'm not sure if AZPOD's first class has even taken the boards. Just wondering. if we are going to compare statistics, I would like to know how/where these all rank.

 

[jonwill]

Remember that statistics can lie...let me explain. There are schools that claim really high pass rates, BUT they also require that every student pass a basic sciences exam before the dean will allow them to take part one of the boards. So, what you are really seeing in those statistics is the rate of people who actually TAKE the boards, but not the rate as based on the entire class. People who cannot pass the test are not allowed to take the boards (same material), which really skews the statistics.

Further, beware of assumptions. Assumptions can make you lazy. Granted, most of us in this forum are not lazy or we would not have the GPA's and MCAT scores that we do. Still, assuming that a school with a high pass rate can give you a better chance is dangerous.

I've heard the rumor as well about DMU not letting students take part one of the boards unless they "believe" they're ready (this was told to us by people interviewing). It is a complete and total lie told by SOME schools to make their students feel better about their own results. DMU does no such thing. Every student takes part one of the boards the first time that it is offered. And the REAL kicker is that there are no board review sessions for DMU students and we still have the highest pass rate in the nation year after year. Now that's a curriculum.

 

[runnersfeet]

I dont think this is about the "entertainment" in the corresponding city where a school is located. Rather, when stated that one needs to choose where they fit and feel most comfortable is based on one's personal feelings about a school. So, just because DMU has high board pass rates - I would likely not do so hot there....not a big fan of Iowa, just a personal opinion. Moreover, something that helps me thrive in school/life...is a certain lifestyle - for me personally, one that allows me to have my comforts that will assist me in dealing with high stress and lots of work. So, for me, I need a location that "feels right"...one that I can go on a nice scenic run, bike ride...one where there are other athletes and other people that I can bond with for support during those tough times. For some, this might be DMU, and for others, it might be Scholl or AZPOD. Thus, the school could be named "guaranteed to pass boards and best pod school," and I would still not choose it if I did not feel that I personally would not be happy there. Lets be honest - its hard to stay positive about what you are doing when you are unhappy. I would rather go to a school where I feel comfortable - as I will then work a lot harder at what I am doing.

QUOTE=randersen]Of course they can. There is an exception to every rule. However, it doesnt mean its the norm. Unfortunately Scpod, statistics is the way we (human beings) measure things, even success. No they are not completely accurate all of the time but its what we have. If a student was able to dig deep enough and find those schools who manipulate statistics, then more power to them. I didnt, and I dont think you did either. My arguement still stands. It is better to base your decision on statistics than on the entertainment available in the city in which the pod school resides. The school matters. They are not all the same. That is a fact. Which ever ones are the best is an opinion. All I am saying is that you may have to work harder on your own at one school to get the education of another.[/QUOTE]

 

[IlizaRob]

I dont think this is about the "entertainment" in the corresponding city where a school is located.

You missed the whole point of my post. I was responding to the argument that you get the same education no matter what school you go to which I believe is false. To say that every school is the same is naive. I did not say that DMU was the best and clearly stated that those are opinions. Whether the scenic routes or the structure of curriculum of a given city or school are your priorities than thats your prerogative. Board scores vs. entertainment was an example to get my point across.

 

[runnersfeet]

No, I got your point - i understand - im just staying that i disagree. I think what you put into those 4 years will determine what you get out. I realize that every school is different and has its own positives and negatives, so the education wont be identical. However, it will be just as good one place as it will be in the next - so long as one does the work and makes sure they are on top of things. I have heard this from residency directors who have observed 4th year students and residents for 15+ years - and they seem to believe that if the student works hard and does the reading, gets the exposure, practice ,etc...it does not matter what school they attend. Afterall, there are only 8 schools - they all have the same basic accredidation process and the same goal...some professors/teachers may be better at individual schools, based on the student's learning style,etc...but its still up to the student to do the learning, studying for the boards, and prove themselves in externships, interviews, and ultimately in a residency program. This is just what I have learned through talking to MANY 4th years, LOTS of residents, and a few of the top residency directors.

You missed the whole point of my post. I was responding to the argument that you get the same education no matter what school you go to which I believe is false. To say that every school is the same is naive. I did not say that DMU was the best and clearly stated that those are opinions. Whether the scenic routes or the structure of curriculum of a given city or school are your priorities than thats your prerogative. Board scores vs. entertainment was an example to get my point across.

 

[psionic_blast]

a few of the top residency directors.

Just curious who are the top residency directors and what are the programs they represent? FMI

 

[IlizaRob]

No, I got your point - i understand - .

I wasnt originally responding to your post but I will try to explain my position one more time. Please re-read what I said. I dont disagree with you when you say that the student makes his/her education. But one school can assist you in achieving your goals easier than another. Such is the case with you and your stress-relieving bike rides. Below is a quote from one of my previous posts.

you may have to work harder on your own at one school to get the education of another.

The key phrase there is "on your OWN"

Let me rephrase this:

You may have to work harder on your own to achieve your personal goals while attending one school, than you would by attending another.

That is a true statement. You should choose a school that will cater to your goals whether it be board scores or bike rides. Whichever you value most important. So, I dont disagree with the "LOTS of 4th years", "MANY residents" and "top residency directors" (whoever the top are) that its up to you to make your own education. So to summarize, one particular school can help you achieve your goals more than another. If you want to go some place that will help you pass the boards, go to a place with the highest board pass rates. If you want to go to a place that will help you relieve stress, go somewhere that will allow you to do that. If you feel like you can do it all on your own (and many students do), then forget about what I said because different teaching philosophies of each school are all the same to you and irrelevant.

 

[oncogene]

I spoke with the lady in charge of residency placement at scholl and she said that 16% of last years students obtained a 3 year residencey spot. Now, I can understand that some people choose the two year spots for personal reasons but, I think that most would like to have 3 year training. I am not trying to bash scholl or any other school but I would like to make a comparison of scholl and DMU based on residency placement. DMU had 100% of its class last year take a 3 year spot! That is an amazing stat and to say that one school doesn't help you more than others is dead wrong.

 

[runnersfeet]

Unless you spoke to students at Scholl that said they wanted a 3 year residency, worked hard, and still didnt get one - than this isnt true. One school will fit the individual better than the next....its not about bike rides...if youread what I wrote, then it will be noticed that I said the environment in one place helps one student succeed while it may not help the next - each school is not the same...duh, but it is how the education best fits your own ways of learning/need/desires. I personally will perform better on the boards, or any test, if I can be comfortable in my setting - whatever that may mean for me, maybe mean something different for the next. So, the fact that a higher percentage of people are passing the boards at a particular school is not going to effect how I do - in my opinion. I will let you know in a couple of years when I cross that bridge, how my theory fits me.

I spoke with the lady in charge of residency placement at scholl and she said that 16% of last years students obtained a 3 year residencey spot. Now, I can understand that some people choose the two year spots for personal reasons but, I think that most would like to have 3 year training. I am not trying to bash scholl or any other school but I would like to make a comparison of scholl and DMU based on residency placement. DMU had 100% of its class last year take a 3 year spot! That is an amazing stat and to say that one school doesn't help you more than others is dead wrong.

 

[psionic_blast]

Unless you spoke to students at Scholl that said they wanted a 3 year residency, worked hard, and still didnt get one - than this isnt true. One school will fit the individual better than the next....its not about bike rides...if youread what I wrote, then it will be noticed that I said the environment in one place helps one student succeed while it may not help the next - each school is not the same...duh, but it is how the education best fits your own ways of learning/need/desires. I personally will perform better on the boards, or any test, if I can be comfortable in my setting - whatever that may mean for me, maybe mean something different for the next. So, the fact that a higher percentage of people are passing the boards at a particular school is not going to effect how I do - in my opinion. I will let you know in a couple of years when I cross that bridge, how my theory fits me.

Actually the APMA came to our school a few weeks ago and told us that a poll indicated that almost all students want three year residencies fyi. Who are the top residency directors you spoke to and what programs do the represent?

 

[scpod]

I was responding to the argument that you get the same education no matter what school you go to which I believe is false.

No, no one said that "you get the same education..." so you weren't responding to that. What you were responding to was "Statistics can lie." My post was meant to warn you (keep in mind that I'm not saying you specifically) of the dangers of using statistics for one school and making inferences about the others based on it. You can't say that if one school has a better pass rate on last year's boards that you will be more likely to pass the boards by going there. If you are going to use statistics to make claims, then you have to have valid statistics. You first need to have a set of data in front of you for every school and you need to actually put them to a test. Do you remember in Genetics class when you were given a set of data and asked if it conformed to the H-W eqilibrium? You couldn't possibly do it by looking at the raw data. You had to perform a chi-square test using a known algorithm before you could say "statistically" that your null hypotheses was supported or not. To do otherwise would be misrepresenting the data. If all you know is that ( fill in the blank) percent of students typically pass the boards at University X, then you can't statistically make that claim.

Second point (A comparison of one statistic)-- Imagine if Class A had 95 of 100 people pass the boards--5 failed. In Class B 54 of 60 passed-- 6 failed. That's a 5% difference (95% vs. 90%). On the surface you might say that Class A was better. BUT, what if 65% of the members of Class B (39 people) scored in the 90th percentile and only 20% of Class A (20 people) scored in the 90th percentile. Can you really say that Class A is better? I don't think so. What you really could say is that if you are a good student, then you are likely to pass your boards in Class A, but if you are a good student you are likely to perform in the 90th percentile in Class B. We don't have enough data available to "statistically" compare the schools. Lots more needs to be considered. Simply comparing one statistic can lead you to make faulty claims.

Why do I bring this up. Because in the next few years you will be asked to compare data and make a statistical analysis of that information. The models are moving toward Evidence Based Podiatry (EBP) which askes you to compare all of the best data before rendering an opinion. Again, I'm not talking about you specifically, but I've seen all kinds of claims on this board that people are now taking as gospel-- and I haven't seen the statistcal comparison yet that will back up those claims. A good argument can't be, "Well everybody knows that X, Y, and Z are the best because they all keep saying it." Saying that you get a better education at one school than another because board scores may have been higher is irresponsible.

 

[biocmp]

Please tell me that 16% is not true about acceptance for 3 year positions. I would be willing to work my tail off, but if one school really does give you that kind of educational difference/ connection difference/ prestige of name difference, I want it and would be willing to wait an extra year or two! Does anyone else have numbers they want to throw out with sources so we can make some sense of the school debate?

 

[scpod]

I've heard the rumor as well about DMU not letting students take part one of the boards unless they "believe" they're ready (this was told to us by people interviewing). It is a complete and total lie told by SOME schools to make their students feel better about their own results. DMU does no such thing. Every student takes part one of the boards the first time that it is offered. And the REAL kicker is that there are no board review sessions for DMU students and we still have the highest pass rate in the nation year after year. Now that's a curriculum.

I'm not talking about any rumor, and I'm not talking about DMU at all. I am, however, talking about POD schools who have the policy listed in their graduate catalogs verbatim. They exist. Unfortunately, not all schools have their catalogs listed online, so it's not easy to examine. There are other schools who might do it, but don't have the balls to list it in their catalog. It's actually a pretty old practice that exists in all levels of education-- Increase your scores by making sure that not everyone takes the tests.

 

[IlizaRob]

I understand the concept of statistics. Unfortunately, they dont provide us with that in depth of an analysis so we analyze what we have. I can tell you however that I have seen the numbers for each school broken by section of the part 1 boards for the past 5 years. I think that it gives me a good estimate on what to expect if I were to attend any school as far as boards go. (All the deans have this). Needless to say, the past 5 years have been fairly consistent. I dont think that is a coincidence.

Im not submitting a journal article to be published here so no need to get so worked up over the analysis.

If someone were to ask you how they would go about finding unbiased information revealing the school with the most sound academic curriculum, what would you suggest they do? This is an honest question, Im not trying to demean anyone.

 

[Dmayor22]

randersen,

In your opinion from seeing the past 5 years of board scores, would you rank the schools in which you think do the best on the boards, like the top 3 or so?

 

[scpod]

If someone were to ask you how they would go about finding unbiased information revealing the school with the most sound academic curriculum, what would you suggest they do?

Unfortunately, there isn't a "one-stop-shop" where you can obtain all the necessary information to make a very important decision of that magnitude. It would be nice, seeing as many folks are getting ready to go 150,000 to 200,000 dollars in debt, it that were available. It would be nice if things like board scores, graduation rates, % of top residency choices, etc. were available and accessible on a web site somewhere. Maybe some enterprising young entrepreneur will consolidate that information for us someday (probably for a substantial fee ). The only real fact that you can count on is that there are still more residencies right now than graduates available to fill them, so everyone can get a residency if they want one. In four years, though, that might not be the case. As the quality of applicants continues to increase, schools are stretching themselves to the limit to provide an education for more an more people.

I still say that the best thing to do is go where you feel the most comfortable. If you study hard enough, you will pass the boards-- no matter where you go. I do think, though, that if your main goal is to pass the boards and you go to the school with the best pass rate, but you don't fit in well, your score will suffer considerably. Any one individual doesn't necessarily have an advantage just because the pass rate is high. There are too many other factors in play. You could argue that the average student is more likely to pass the baords because the pass rate is high, BUT we're not talking about the average student. We're talking about one student in particular, and everyone is different.

 

[IlizaRob]

randersen,

In your opinion from seeing the past 5 years of board scores, would you rank the schools in which you think do the best on the boards, like the top 3 or so?

I guess I set myself up for that one. As mentioned earlier in this thread not everyone thinks board pass rates determine the school and there are many other things to look at. So to avoid any political battle I may get myself into (my user name defines me), I will only say that DMU has consistently been the top by a large margin. DMU does not hold back students from taking the boards, and all students take it the first time its offered.

Anyway, I would call up the deans of admission of each school and ask. If they refuse to give out that information, well, then there's your answer.

 

[scpod]

So to avoid any political battle I may get myself into (my user name defines me), I will only say that DMU has consistently been the top by a large margin.

I should probably apologise for going a little overboard, but I'm pretty anal when it comes to the practice of "statistics". I'm probably a good bit older than some of the folks who read this forum. In fact, podiatry will be my second career. I've had a number of papers published and made a few conference presentations in my time. In fact, I'm in the middle of preparing for a presentation at a conference in Charlotte, NC in February, focusing on the statistical validity of questionaires. So, I get a little hyped up from time to time...sorry.

 

[biocmp]

So in turn, if DMU is the best by a large margin, then who's next? AZPOD because some the program directors and teachrs are from DMU? Or is it Scholl? they are attached to a well respected university (rosalind franklin) Or does temple come up? I am wondering because I do not want to go thru podiatry school, just to come up short in getting the 3 year pm&s residency.

How do they decide who gets these residencies? Is it strictly by the numbers, if so I wouldn't worry so much, because you can make yourself competitive according to how much work you put in. Please someone help, this is a big decision and this thread kind of has me freaked out.

 

[dpmgrad]

So in turn, if DMU is the best by a large margin, then who's next? AZPOD because some the program directors and teachrs are from DMU? Or is it Scholl? they are attached to a well respected university (rosalind franklin) Or does temple come up? I am wondering because I do not want to go thru podiatry school, just to come up short in getting the 3 year pm&s residency.

How do they decide who gets these residencies? Is it strictly by the numbers, if so I wouldn't worry so much, because you can make yourself competitive according to how much work you put in. Please someone help, this is a big decision and this thread kind of has me freaked out.

Most of the residency programs require the students sit through an interview. Unlike most of the allopathic residency programs, most Podiatric Surgery residency programs are academic in nature with some social aspects thrown in. Some of them would even include some hands on skills as well in the interviews. The residency programs would then make a decision based on the review of the application, the interview, and other factors. In fact, the residency interview process is going on now as we speak. My residency program just finished interviewing at EAST CRIP.

 

[IlizaRob]

So in turn, if DMU is the best by a large margin, then who's next? AZPOD because some the program directors and teachrs are from DMU? Or is it Scholl? they are attached to a well respected university (rosalind franklin) Or does temple come up? I am wondering because I do not want to go thru podiatry school, just to come up short in getting the 3 year pm&s residency.

How do they decide who gets these residencies? Is it strictly by the numbers, if so I wouldn't worry so much, because you can make yourself competitive according to how much work you put in. Please someone help, this is a big decision and this thread kind of has me freaked out.

I dont know for sure because I am not a resident. But, I would suspect that if you rotated at a specific program during your 3rd or 4th year, they would decide if you are fit for their program based on your preformance there rather than what school you went to. Otherwise, you have to shine in the interview.

 

[psionic_blast]

So in turn, if DMU is the best by a large margin, then who's next? AZPOD because some the program directors and teachrs are from DMU? Or is it Scholl? they are attached to a well respected university (rosalind franklin) Or does temple come up? I am wondering because I do not want to go thru podiatry school, just to come up short in getting the 3 year pm&s residency.

How do they decide who gets these residencies? Is it strictly by the numbers, if so I wouldn't worry so much, because you can make yourself competitive according to how much work you put in. Please someone help, this is a big decision and this thread kind of has me freaked out.

Azpod doesn't have stats until next year around this time since they have yet to have a class that has taken the boards. I have a feeling that they will do well, but it is left to be seen. It has been a while since we saw the statistics so wait until wednesday or thrusday and I'll try to round some up for you. We don't want to give misleading or incorrect info. Some schools are very guarded about these numbers. Let just say this the pass rate this year on part one of the boards was 83% overall not to bad, but you need to remember that they are also factoring in the 96% pass rate of DMU into that figure. So without our school the rates would be a bit lower. Good luck this is a up and coming profession just work hard.

 

[scpod]

I am wondering because I do not want to go thru podiatry school, just to come up short in getting the 3 year pm&s residency.

Whether or not you get a PM&S36 does not depend on what school you go to. Even if your school has 95% of its graduates going into the 3-year residency, you could just as easily be part of the 5% who don't.

...you can make yourself competitive according to how much work you put in.

You already answered your own question. Yes, you are the one who controls your destiny when it comes to residencies, because you are the one who has to put forth the effort to get there. Likewise, if you don't get what you want, then you are the only one to blame.

 

[psionic_blast]

Whether or not you get a PM&S36 does not depend on what school you go to. Even if your school has 95% of its graduates going into the 3-year residency, you could just as easily be part of the 5% who don't.



You already answered your own question. Yes, you are the one who controls your destiny when it comes to residencies, because you are the one who has to put forth the effort to get there. Likewise, if you don't get what you want, then you are the only one to blame.

Truer words were never spoken!

 

[biocmp]

SCPOD, thank you for the generalized response. I understand that, and was implying that if that was all there was to it, I was not worried. The fact is, sometimes just attending a certain institution can give you the competitive edge. If two applicants have the same stats look good on paper, but the one is from a more 'prestigious' school, perhaps that gives them the edge. That is what I was getting at. With the numbers floating around of 100% DMU gets accepted to a 3 yr program compared to scholl with 16%, then that makes me awfully nervous.


Of course it comes down to what I do, I just want to make sure I choose the school that will equip me the best. I can already here your remarks coming about one school for one person but not necessarily for another, and all that. Let me just say, if one school has consistently better board scores, and a large percentage of their graduating class get accepted to the residency they want, then I am going to go ahead and 'blindly' state, that is the kind of school I want to attend.

I hope this doesn't come off as an attack.

 

[runnersfeet]

well put - exactly how i believe

No, no one said that "you get the same education..." so you weren't responding to that. What you were responding to was "Statistics can lie." My post was meant to warn you (keep in mind that I'm not saying you specifically) of the dangers of using statistics for one school and making inferences about the others based on it. You can't say that if one school has a better pass rate on last year's boards that you will be more likely to pass the boards by going there. If you are going to use statistics to make claims, then you have to have valid statistics. You first need to have a set of data in front of you for every school and you need to actually put them to a test. Do you remember in Genetics class when you were given a set of data and asked if it conformed to the H-W eqilibrium? You couldn't possibly do it by looking at the raw data. You had to perform a chi-square test using a known algorithm before you could say "statistically" that your null hypotheses was supported or not. To do otherwise would be misrepresenting the data. If all you know is that ( fill in the blank) percent of students typically pass the boards at University X, then you can't statistically make that claim.

Second point (A comparison of one statistic)-- Imagine if Class A had 95 of 100 people pass the boards--5 failed. In Class B 54 of 60 passed-- 6 failed. That's a 5% difference (95% vs. 90%). On the surface you might say that Class A was better. BUT, what if 65% of the members of Class B (39 people) scored in the 90th percentile and only 20% of Class A (20 people) scored in the 90th percentile. Can you really say that Class A is better? I don't think so. What you really could say is that if you are a good student, then you are likely to pass your boards in Class A, but if you are a good student you are likely to perform in the 90th percentile in Class B. We don't have enough data available to "statistically" compare the schools. Lots more needs to be considered. Simply comparing one statistic can lead you to make faulty claims.

Why do I bring this up. Because in the next few years you will be asked to compare data and make a statistical analysis of that information. The models are moving toward Evidence Based Podiatry (EBP) which askes you to compare all of the best data before rendering an opinion. Again, I'm not talking about you specifically, but I've seen all kinds of claims on this board that people are now taking as gospel-- and I haven't seen the statistcal comparison yet that will back up those claims. A good argument can't be, "Well everybody knows that X, Y, and Z are the best because they all keep saying it." Saying that you get a better education at one school than another because board scores may have been higher is irresponsible.

 

[runnersfeet]

OK, I know its annoying to say "ive heard" and not specify from whom I have heard - but I dont feel its appropriate to give names of directors here without their consent. With that in mind, I have heard from residency directors that your stats need to be great to into a competitive residency program - so that means great grades, good notes from rotations, and good board scores. Then, it is ideal to do an externship during the 4th year at the places where you want to get into....then you have a chance of an interview, regardless of where you went to school. In your interview, the content is specific enough that the director can determine how well you know your "stuff" and how well you will potentially fit into their program. Keep in mind that many programs - like Phoenix, St Mary's hospital in Bay area, Denver, etc...(which are all very good surgical residencies(say many))..take only 2-3 first year residents. So, if you are picky about which program you get, it is very competitive....otherwise, there are plenty other programs that one can get. But, my point is that, because they are so competitive - it is really based on your externship and interview...because 100 applicants could all have great GPA's from various schools.

My real point in starting this thread was to gather info that would maybe trigger something in myself that would make it easy to make my decision - between Scholl and AZPOD. So it is definitely related to talk about getting residency programs and passing boards,etc- and funny how I still cant decide! I like both schools - they both have their ups and downs...duh, I guess that is life. Im hoping that I can make a solid decision soon - because right now I change my mind every hour....meanwhile, its fun to read the posts on this thread and see how everyone views the topic of "how to choose a school" so differently.

SCPOD, thank you for the generalized response. I understand that, and was implying that if that was all there was to it, I was not worried. The fact is, sometimes just attending a certain institution can give you the competitive edge. If two applicants have the same stats look good on paper, but the one is from a more 'prestigious' school, perhaps that gives them the edge. That is what I was getting at. With the numbers floating around of 100% DMU gets accepted to a 3 yr program compared to scholl with 16%, then that makes me awfully nervous.


Of course it comes down to what I do, I just want to make sure I choose the school that will equip me the best. I can already here your remarks coming about one school for one person but not necessarily for another, and all that. Let me just say, if one school has consistently better board scores, and a large percentage of their graduating class get accepted to the residency they want, then I am going to go ahead and 'blindly' state, that is the kind of school I want to attend.

I hope this doesn't come off as an attack.

 

[runnersfeet]

One more thought that I forgot to wrap up the last post with - a huge part of getting into a residency is a match of personalities between you and the director and others involved in the program - so the school one goes to does not just allow the director to know your personality - therefore, it would be silly for a director to not want to interview a potential candidate even if the rest of the candidate's class did not pass the boards...they care if you passed the boards, not your classmates...and then they want to know you as a person, beyond where you went to school. Ok, enough on that...just wanted to point that out.

OK, I know its annoying to say "ive heard" and not specify from whom I have heard - but I dont feel its appropriate to give names of directors here without their consent. With that in mind, I have heard from residency directors that your stats need to be great to into a competitive residency program - so that means great grades, good notes from rotations, and good board scores. Then, it is ideal to do an externship during the 4th year at the places where you want to get into....then you have a chance of an interview, regardless of where you went to school. In your interview, the content is specific enough that the director can determine how well you know your "stuff" and how well you will potentially fit into their program. Keep in mind that many programs - like Phoenix, St Mary's hospital in Bay area, Denver, etc...(which are all very good surgical residencies(say many))..take only 2-3 first year residents. So, if you are picky about which program you get, it is very competitive....otherwise, there are plenty other programs that one can get. But, my point is that, because they are so competitive - it is really based on your externship and interview...because 100 applicants could all have great GPA's from various schools.

My real point in starting this thread was to gather info that would maybe trigger something in myself that would make it easy to make my decision - between Scholl and AZPOD. So it is definitely related to talk about getting residency programs and passing boards,etc- and funny how I still cant decide! I like both schools - they both have their ups and downs...duh, I guess that is life. Im hoping that I can make a solid decision soon - because right now I change my mind every hour....meanwhile, its fun to read the posts on this thread and see how everyone views the topic of "how to choose a school" so differently.

 

[doclm]

I spoke with the lady in charge of residency placement at scholl and she said that 16% of last years students obtained a 3 year residencey spot. Now, I can understand that some people choose the two year spots for personal reasons but, I think that most would like to have 3 year training. I am not trying to bash scholl or any other school but I would like to make a comparison of scholl and DMU based on residency placement. DMU had 100% of its class last year take a 3 year spot! That is an amazing stat and to say that one school doesn't help you more than others is dead wrong.

Hey now,

You must have not correctly understood the residency lady. I have official data sitting in front of me that says something completely different from Scholl. In the Graduating class of 2004, around 33% were placed in the PSR36, 4.5% in the PPMR, and 4.5% in the PSR24. 0% in the PSR12. That is just speaking from the students who chose to go strictly into a Podiatric Surgical Residency. However, there is more 9% into POR/PSR12, 4.5% into RPR/PSR12, 18% into RPR/PSR24. Then 2.3% into PPMR/PSR12 and 20.5% into the PPMR/PSR24. From this data, it is obvious that not everyone who is in POD school has their heart based on being the top surgical podiatrist. There are so many more things in Podiatry than surgery. If 95% of your graduating classes at DMU are going into the PSR36, then you guys don't have much diversity in your education. Also, how about research? What kind of options do you have at DMU to do research and where?

 

[IlizaRob]

If 95% of your graduating classes at DMU are going into the PSR36, then you guys don't have much diversity in your education.

Wow, that was quite the assumption. Do you base all of your conclusions on emotion? All residency programs will be surgical by the next sight visit of each program or they will not be accredited. Most have already converted over. The difference is 2 or 3 yrs. 2 yr surgical residents will not be able to sit for the rear foot board certification. That is a big deal to most students.

Can I ask you if you are pre-med/student/resident/doc?

 

[jonwill]

Hey now,

You must have not correctly understood the residency lady. I have official data sitting in front of me that says something completely different from Scholl. In the Graduating class of 2004, around 33% were placed in the PSR36, 4.5% in the PPMR, and 4.5% in the PSR24. 0% in the PSR12. That is just speaking from the students who chose to go strictly into a Podiatric Surgical Residency. However, there is more 9% into POR/PSR12, 4.5% into RPR/PSR12, 18% into RPR/PSR24. Then 2.3% into PPMR/PSR12 and 20.5% into the PPMR/PSR24. From this data, it is obvious that not everyone who is in POD school has their heart based on being the top surgical podiatrist. There are so many more things in Podiatry than surgery. If 95% of your graduating classes at DMU are going into the PSR36, then you guys don't have much diversity in your education. Also, how about research? What kind of options do you have at DMU to do research and where?

It's all the same thing my friend. POR/PSR 12 is a PM&S-24, as are RPR/PSR12 and PPMR/PSR12. RPR/PSR24 and PPMR/PSR24 are the same as PM&S-36's. Under the old system, that is how the 2 and 3 year residencies were done. Entering into the PPMR of a program automatically guaranteed enterance into the PSR-24 (ie they weren't matched separately). As of next year with the new model, ALL will be PM&S 24 or 36. But nothing will change at any of these programs as to how they do things. I know it's confusing. The reason I speak out on the subject is I would hate to see a school boast "diversity" by throwing these numbers at you. Remember, every pod will now get surgical training. Now, to what extent they want to use it after residency is up to them. randersen also brings up a good point about board certification.