Fired/dismissed from residency program in 51st week

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Your kid being sick (unless it's some sort of life threatening thing requiring hospitalization, etc.) would not have been an acceptable reason to miss work at my medicine residency. Honestly, it would put too much of a burden on other people who would then have to do the resident's or intern's work for him/her. People with kids need to have a spouse, family, or baby sitter w/backup babysitter for situations like this. Many residencies have little elective and/or non-call time and if people are getting pulled they are essentially getting pulled from what little clinic and/or ER shift time they have (and forced into doing medicine wards or ICU call). However, if someone was seriously ill (say, febrile, vomiting, or pregnant and put on bed rest) people would be understanding and make it work some way. Residents are not really like other hospital employees...at least not in all ways.

That said, there are a lot of different residency cultures. I also think that as work hours are limited more and more, this sort of thing (using sick days for routine stuff like having a bit of a cold, a sick kid, etc.) will become more common and it's less of a big deal to be missing somone for a 12-14 hour shift versus a 30 hour one.

The issue is the rules governing sick leave. I, and others I am sure, would not use a sick day for a non-sick emergency, plain and simple. But guess what? Plenty of residents from different backgrounds use a sick day as a flex day to deal with sick kids and the like. The PD should state upfront what the rules are, if you are sick then you need a doctor's note, and that you don't have it then you have to come in. This would force some residents to negotiate and ask for "understanding" in a tough circumstance. Anyway, plenty of attendings abuse this rule as well. If you don't require a doctor's note then it is a free pass for taking a day off. Is this unprofessional? Well, if there aren't enough docs to cover regular patient care then yes, but if there is, then the resident/attending is really just putting family first.

PDs don't like it because you aren't putting the hospital first and foremost (not necessarily patient care getting shafted, just your colleagues). Younger docs are less likely to stick with the same hospital and practice during their career, and they are more likely to more highly value personal time and family time above service for the hospital.

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I've been following this thread and SDN for a while now. I've read quite a few similar threads but this one seemed different than many of the others. It seems to have sparked a more interesting debate than the others. Maybe because of the disturbing and unsettling nature of the claim of being fired with just one week left in your intern year.

I was quite taken aback by those who empathized with the OP, or at least sympathized with the ramifications that the program's actions would have on this person's future career. I thought it was important that this thread have more contributions from those who have been in this situation. I believe that the OP did the wrong thing by withdrawing from the forum as their experience may benefit others. Obviously, that will be the last thing on their mind at this point but it's important nonetheless. I'm not singling out the OP. It seems that the OPs in most of these cases do the same. But I think if you come on here seeking advice you should repay those who have invested their time and emotion with something, anything, even an update.

My experience was not quite as scandalous as the OPs but it was, for me, just as calamitous. I cannot impress on those who've been fortunate enough to not have their own similar personal experience the physical, mental, and emotional toll something like this can take. I can assure you that most who've not experienced it cannot appreciate this. I didn't post my own personal experience on these forums because--though I think there are members here who can offer valuable advice--I just don't think it's feasible for a resident to present enough information (including from third-parties) to convince those who think they're getting a completely biased viewpoint without unacceptably sacrificing their own privacy.

Unlike the OP, I wasn't terminated but allowed to finish out my contract which was not renewed. I also received full credit for the year. Unfortunately for me I was in a categorical program and by the time I was notified the Match had come and gone. Like the OP, the reason for non-renewal fell under the oft used and maligned "professionalism" tag. Also like the OP I was never put on probation prior to the non-renewal. I had met with the PD a couple of times over the course of a month and a half and just like that it was over. Like other posters on this thread have already pointed out, the word "professionalism" is used countless times by PDs, administrators, and everyone in between but I've never heard the term properly defined. I think there a lot of people here who think that to be terminated from residency your breach of however they've defined "professionalism" has to be egregious. I can assure you too that that's not the case. The worst offense I ever committed was being curt with several nurses and a senior resident after an overnight call with no sleep. I can say with absolute clarity and certainty that I took much more than I ever gave from other residents, nurses, and attendings but I didn't realize that I had broken the cardinal rule of internship which is to never say anything but "thank you, may I have another."

I felt I worked extremely hard and was dedicated to doing the best I could. I definitely made mistakes and, if given the chance, would definitely do things differently but I deserved better than I got. It was said by someone on this thread that personality can take you farther in residency than professionalism or even competence, and after my experience, I definitely believe it. The only senior resident that I had any problems with throughout my time in the program was essentially an absentee resident. Would any of you consider it unprofessional if a senior resident decided to go to a nearby restaurant with friends while they're supposed to be on-call in the hospital and one of the assigned responders to codes? And, in case you're wondering no one was covering for them. I was told "just page me" if needed. After calling out this particular resident on their absenteeism while on-call, she responded by verbally abusing and threatening me. I was not the only resident who had had problems with this resident not being present or doing their fair share. She was, however, popular and well-liked in the program so of course she was able to get away with a lot.

I was once chewed out over the phone by a senior surgical resident after being asked to update a family on a patient's status and plan of care.
This patient needed surgery and was becoming septic due to the delay. They were being treated medically only since the patient's spouse told me that they were told the patient was too sick and would never survive the operation though without the operation there was also essentially zero chance of survival. Essentially, the spouse was told the patient would die either way. However, the note claimed that the spouse had refused the surgery and that if the spouse changed their mind the team was definitely willing to do the surgery. I told the spouse verbatim what the attending physician had written in his note just a few hours prior. I, as a float resident, had unfortunately gotten caught up in a case of poor communication between the primary team and the patient's family. After speaking with the spouse and reviewing their options as laid out by the attending (not by me) they decided to go ahead with the surgery. I spoke with the senior resident on call who then began yelling at me because I had given the patient's family hope that something could be done. I explained to them that I had simply updated the family with what the attending had written in his note but it didn't stop me from getting an earful.

I had and have never done anything that had risen to those levels of "unprofessionalism" but I also realized that people are under stress in a hospital and you can't expect to be in a pressure-cooker and not have something blow. I wasn't the type to go running to complain as soon as someone hurt my feelings. Fun fact: when the team arrived in the morning and found that the patient wasn't dead they decided to take them to the OR. The same resident was nothing but nice when face-to-face with me.

I mentioned the examples above not because I think I'm unique but because it's just one example of how not everyone is held to the same standard. I understand my culpability for the position I was put in but it was also painfully obvious that once you're "on their radar" you're not held to the same standard as other residents but a higher one. There are other more obvious examples of preferential treatment but the "lack-of-professionalism" label can be an extremely useful weapon for a PD to wield when needed and many residents could be portrayed in an unflattering light if desired. The same mistakes or lapses that would be overlooked without so much as a word from higher-ups would spell the end for those under the microscope. I wonder how many here can appreciate not only having to perform their duties but doing so knowing that you have no margin for error.

If your program is supportive, I think a "troubled" resident can many times muster what it takes to weather the storm. But, if your program offers you no support or guidance, and you lack adequate social support you are essentially doomed to fail. I went through the process alone without so much as an advisor, mentor, or friend, and I cannot adequately put into words just how demoralizing an experience it can be. Medicine, as we all know, is not just like any other job where you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps and start over somewhere new just like that. Yet, it seems many programs are callous and make these decisions hastily even if the intent isn't malicious. And what recourse does the resident have? Resident support and advocacy is glaringly absent in medicine. The definition of "due process" can vary widely from one GME to another. The ACGME doesn't institute minimum standards or universal standards to ensure that a resident in one program is afforded the same opportunities and treated the same as one in another. After my ordeal, I've learned to pay attention to GME policies and procedures and its amazing how generous some are compared to mine.

We don't know the whole story behind the OP's or others' cases but, after my experience, I do not doubt that there at least some residents that are terminated that are more competent and professional than those that are promoted. The next time you hear or read about another resident termination know that in most cases the truth probably lies somewhere in between. The resident probably shares some of the fault and the program probably does as well. Those that are quick to pile on the resident hardly ever seem to feel there should be any accountability on behalf of the program. I don't doubt that in many cases programs do such a reprehensible job communicating with the resident that it's no wonder the resident is lost. Given the stakes for the resident that is inexcusable. It's unfortunate, I think, that it's much easier for the program to move on without a hiccup than the aggrieved resident. If it weren't maybe we wouldn't see such callous decision-making on the part of the program. There's no incentive for them to work through their problems with a resident so those that are not inclined to do so won't.
 
The only excuse, in my opinion, to take a sick day is if the resident is sick enough to be in the hospital, or is very contagious.

Single parents shouldn't go into medicine (unless the spouse died while the other parent was already started in their medical training)

I'm glad you're not a PD anymore. You clearly don't belong in a managerial spot with those outdated 1950s opinions.
 
there are certainly residencies where being sick is not an excuse for not showing up to your shift. Nor is not having a backup plan for daycare. It's a cultural thing. I've seen folks so sick at work that they got IV infusions before rounds.

I think a lot of that is the martyr mentality that residents like to have. "Look at me! I'm so sick, I need IV infusions, yet I still showed up to work!"
 
I'm glad you're not a PD anymore. You clearly don't belong in a managerial spot with those outdated 1950s opinions.

I am actually a manager right now (in addition to my clinical work), although I don't supervise residents/medical students. I think I am a pretty good manager- I certainly expect those I supervise to have a life outside their jobs since they are not in medical training.

I actually don't supervise/manage any physicians; there is one NP at the company I work at along with numerous technicians/therapists and office staff.

My previous comments are limited to medical students/residents; I support the legal rights of parents/women regarding work/employment otherwise.
 
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I think a lot of that is the martyr mentality that residents like to have. "Look at me! I'm so sick, I need IV infusions, yet I still showed up to work!"

It has nothing to do with what the residents want or their sense of bravado. Being sick is simply not optional in some residency programs. You don't show up, you can quickly find yourself in the OPs situation in some fields. Different paths have different views of what constitutes an excuse for being out. And different residencies have different ability to fill open shifts.
 
My previous comments are limited to medical students/residents; I support the legal rights of parents/women regarding work/employment otherwise.

They just shouldn't be doctors. Do you really think that sounds less sexist?
 
It has nothing to do with what the residents want or their sense of bravado. Being sick is simply not optional in some residency programs. You don't show up, you can quickly find yourself in the OPs situation in some fields. Different paths have different views of what constitutes an excuse for being out. And different residencies have different ability to fill open shifts.

I've seen enough residents wanting the attention to know that's not true. Could it be true in some programs in your experience? Certainly. In my experience, these are the residents who want to put on a good show. I would dare any PD to fire an employee for taking a legitimate sick day when needing IV fluids. Sounds to me like that program would have a pretty sweet lawsuit on its hands. Oh, and this goes back to someone's recent post in allo, calling doctors hypocrites. How many of you would look at a patient who needs IV fluids and tell him/her "go home, get some rest, no work until..."? How many would then write a note to that affect? Yet, God forbid that very doctor call in sick to work for fear of losing his/her job. What exactly are sick days for if not for the days that you need an IV to get through rounds?
 
Good post by idontneednodoc.
I think there's a lot of truth there.
What programs have at stake is not equal to what we (trainees) have at stake. We are expendable/replaceable to many of these programs and program directors. However, we cannot necessarily start over at some other place, so getting fired (or nonrenewed) is a huge deal. I am happy ne that I'm currently in a program where I think that trainees have some value to those in charge, and they are committed to our training and want everyone to finish and do well.
 
They just shouldn't be doctors. Do you really think that sounds less sexist?

My comments were regarding medical training; not what persons did before or after that time period.


I didn't say they shouldn't be doctors; I said they shouldn't become doctors. In other words, those in medical training (clinical years of med school and most residencies ) should be able to devote their full attention to their training. I don't think a single parent of a young child should be in medical training. Their parent status before and after medical training makes no diffference to me.

Certainly I think someone can be both a good practicing physician and a good single parent.

When I was in academics, I don't think any women applied for the position of sleep fellow. I did interview some female psych residency applicants but never asked about child status, maritial status, sexual orientation, etc. As far as I can remember, the issue of being a single parent never came up when I was in academics- I know enough not to ask any illegal questions. Anyway, this isn't a very important issue for me at all. Just an opinion of mine that I don't care too much about..


I must point out, that I practice no form of illegal discrimination at my current position- My work does not involve medical trainees.
 
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I am actually a manager right now (in addition to my clinical work), although I don't supervise residents/medical students. I think I am a pretty good manager- I certainly expect those I supervise to have a life outside their jobs since they are not in medical training.

I actually don't supervise/manage any physicians; there is one NP at the company I work at along with numerous technicians/therapists and office staff.

My previous comments are limited to medical students/residents; I support the legal rights of parents/women regarding work/employment otherwise.

So, med students/residents shouldn't enjoy the same rights as everyone else?

Single dads or moms shouldn't be trying to make something of themselves?

It's a good thing you AREN'T in a position where you manage/supervise med students/residents... or hell, other physicians, too. You sound like you'd be quick to point the finger at a colleague. I wouldn't want to be in an M&M with you.
 
It has nothing to do with what the residents want or their sense of bravado. Being sick is simply not optional in some residency programs. You don't show up, you can quickly find yourself in the OPs situation in some fields. Different paths have different views of what constitutes an excuse for being out. And different residencies have different ability to fill open shifts.

Sounds like a surgical or medical residency. Good thing I avoided both at all costs.

Don't discount the overzealous show-off intern/resident/upper level. We all know they exist. Hell, I saw it on my 1st day. They exist. They kiss up. They try to be well-liked and at the same time get away with not doing any real/quality work.
 
My comments were regarding medical training; not what persons did before or after that time period.

do you honestly believe that most come in without kids and decide to have kids during med school/residency? There's plenty that come in with kids, just as there's plenty who have a kid during their training

I didn't say they shouldn't be doctors; I said they shouldn't become doctors. In other words, those in medical training (clinical years of med school and most residencies ) should be able to devote their full attention to their training. I don't think a single parent of a young child should be in medical training. Their parent status before and after medical training makes no diffference to me.

How does their parent status BEFORE medical training mean nothing to you if they came into med school/residency with a kid and are a single parent? Also, why shouldn't they become doctors? Just b/c you have a kid and no spouse/SO doesn't mean you should be banned from joining the profession. Very backwards thinking.

Certainly I think someone can be both a good practicing physician and a good single parent.

Obvious back-tracking now.

When I was in academics, I don't think any women applied for the position of sleep fellow. I did interview some female psych residency applicants but never asked about child status, maritial status, sexual orientation, etc. As far as I can remember, the issue of being a single parent never came up when I was in academics- I know enough not to ask any illegal questions. Anyway, this isn't a very important issue for me at all. Just an opinion of mine that I don't care too much about..

Why does it matter if there weren't female applicants when you were applying/were a fellow? there weren't many women in medicine at that time anyway. I need to look up how long sleep has been around, but my impression is that it's a relatively new field that is still emerging. Now the question for you is... did you actually choose to hire women when you were the PD? interviewing them means nothing if you didn't hire any. Sounds like the Rooney Rule in the NFL.

I must point out, that I practice no form of illegal discrimination at my current position- My work does not involve medical trainees.

Good thing!
.
 
The only excuse, in my opinion, to take a sick day is if the resident is sick enough to be in the hospital, or is very contagious.

Single parents shouldn't go into medicine (unless the spouse died while the other parent was already started in their medical training)

I'm glad you're not a PD anymore. You clearly don't belong in a managerial spot with those outdated 1950s opinions.

I agree with michaelrack to an extent. No resident should let their private life prevent them from being a good resident. This goes for multiple situations not just single parents. In this example, if a single parent is able to keep their private life (ie taking care of their kids) from preventing them from being a good resident, then great. Otherwise, they shouldn't force other residents to pick up their slack. It's unfair to everyone.

Forget outdated opinions, there is a job to be done. If you can't do it, then you shouldn't be allowed to.



They just shouldn't be doctors. Do you really think that sounds less sexist?

No but it sounds true. There are requirements to being a resident. one of the most important is being able to do the job. A quadraplegic shouldn't be a surgeon. Likewise anyone who cannot fulfill the responsibilities of a resident and the residency they want shouldn't be a resident there.

Your right to have kids, whether male or female, should not impact the training of your fellow residents. If your kid gets sick, you should not take a day off because someone else is going to have to cover for you. However, if you can manage, then great.
 
Good post by idontneednodoc.
I think there's a lot of truth there.
What programs have at stake is not equal to what we (trainees) have at stake. We are expendable/replaceable to many of these programs and program directors. However, we cannot necessarily start over at some other place, so getting fired (or nonrenewed) is a huge deal. I am happy ne that I'm currently in a program where I think that trainees have some value to those in charge, and they are committed to our training and want everyone to finish and do well.

:thumbup:
 
I agree with michaelrack to an extent. No resident should let their private life prevent them from being a good resident. This goes for multiple situations not just single parents. In this example, if a single parent is able to keep their private life (ie taking care of their kids) from preventing them from being a good resident, then great. Otherwise, they shouldn't force other residents to pick up their slack. It's unfair to everyone.

Forget outdated opinions, there is a job to be done. If you can't do it, then you shouldn't be allowed to.





No but it sounds true. There are requirements to being a resident. one of the most important is being able to do the job. A quadraplegic shouldn't be a surgeon. Likewise anyone who cannot fulfill the responsibilities of a resident and the residency they want shouldn't be a resident there.

Your right to have kids, whether male or female, should not impact the training of your fellow residents. If your kid gets sick, you should not take a day off because someone else is going to have to cover for you. However, if you can manage, then great.

There's a reason programs have people on "jeopardy" (backup-call). As long as it's not a daily/routine occurrence, I find it no reason to think it's a bad thing to take that 1 sick day off when their child becomes sick overnight and they have no replacement. 1 day is NOT going to hurt the process. There is usually enough back-up. The issue is when you're at a small program. If that's the case, then the program should not give out sick days.
 
Yeah I've heard of this, and it's so dumb. You can bet I would never apply to a program whose culture promoted this, no matter the prestige.

My internship was exactly like this. I've gotten an IV at work, as have a couple of other people. We were so strapped for residents that if you were sick, you still had to come into work.
 
My internship was exactly like this. I've gotten an IV at work, as have a couple of other people. We were so strapped for residents that if you were sick, you still had to come into work.

Yep. It has nothing to do with what the resident wants. The resident isn't showing up sick because he is a show off in most cases, despite what a med student or two on SDN like to think.He's showing up because there's no one else to do his shift, because he isn't going to screw over his coresidents already pulling long hours, and he knows it's not going to go well for him with the chiefs and PD if he doesn't show up (regardless of whether they can legally do anything about it).
 
?..I would dare any PD to fire an employee for taking a legitimate sick day when needing IV fluids. Sounds to me like that program would have a pretty sweet lawsuit on its hands. ... What exactly are sick days for if not for the days that you need an IV to get through rounds?

um, first you don't get sick days in some programs. Period. So your question "what exactly are sick days for..." doesn't make sense. You don't have any at some places. As for the lawsuit suggestion, I agree with you to some extent. You can't be fired for being out sick with an illness which requires medical intervention. But I think that misses the point. The goal in residency isn't merely not to be fired. You need recommendations, good evaluations, the help and respect of your teammates. Residency can be a good or horrible experience based on whether it's a family where everyone has each others backs versus a setting where everyone is for themselves. So you will often find yourself doing things to your own detriment simply to stay off the chiefs or PDs $&@? list, and not to leave your coresidents hanging. Including coming to work sick. So it's part an issue of being sick is not optional, and part an issue of keeping yourself in everyone's good graces.
 
There's a reason programs have people on "jeopardy" (backup-call).

Not every program has "jeopardy" (I've only ever seen that system in Medicine and Peds, thus far). And many only have sick days for catastrophic events, not the usual "head cold" ailments. If you can't function at work, that's one thing - but if every resident that just wasn't feeling well got to take off from work, the remaining residents wouldn't be sufficient for substitute coverage.
 
bb
Not every program has "jeopardy" (I've only ever seen that system in Medicine and Peds, thus far). And many only have sick days for catastrophic events, not the usual "head cold" ailments. If you can't function at work, that's one thing - but if every resident that just wasn't feeling well got to take off from work, the remaining residents wouldn't be sufficient for substitute coverage.

Never said a "head cold" was a reason to take a sick day. Not sure how you came up with that conclusion. Way to take that one statement out of context. Nice.

I'm referring to the rare emergency where your child is sick and have no one at the moment to take care of the kid. Using 1 day for that reason is equivalent to someone using 1 day for something "catastrophic." I've said it repeatedly, if it was a common occurrence, then yes, it's an issue. However, if you haven't used it and your child was really sick and could find no back-up, I see no issue with using that 1 sick day just to get the kid to the doctor and find a back-up for the following day(s).

Also, never said anything about using ALL your sick days, either.
 
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I'm referring to the rare emergency where your child is sick and have no one at the moment to take care of the kid. Using 1 day for that reason is equivalent to someone using 1 day for something "catastrophic." I've said it repeatedly, if it was a common occurrence, then yes, it's an issue. However, if you haven't used it and your child was really sick and could find no back-up, I see no issue with using that 1 sick day just to get the kid to the doctor and find a back-up for the following day(s). ...

this might fly at some residencies, but not others. The problem is that at a lot of places, it won't be up to your own discretion as to what constitutes "catastrophic", so the fact that you can justify something doesn't mean the program would agree. You may not have a back up plan for childcare, but similarly your residency doesn't always have a legit backup plan for your absence. Guess who wins that battle.
 
bb

Never said a "head cold" was a reason to take a sick day. Not sure how you came up with that conclusion. Way to take that one statement out of context. Nice.

I'm referring to the rare emergency where your child is sick and have no one at the moment to take care of the kid. Using 1 day for that reason is equivalent to someone using 1 day for something "catastrophic." I've said it repeatedly, if it was a common occurrence, then yes, it's an issue. However, if you haven't used it and your child was really sick and could find no back-up, I see no issue with using that 1 sick day just to get the kid to the doctor and find a back-up for the following day(s).

Also, never said anything about using ALL your sick days, either.

I think the point is that not all programs had sick days (we did not) and others were only provided under FMLA. And as Buzz notes, many of us have never heard of "back up" or Jeopardy call.
 
I think the point is that not all programs had sick days (we did not) and others were only provided under FMLA. And as Buzz notes, many of us have never heard of "back up" or Jeopardy call.

Sure. However, things have changed now. Look at the work hour restrictions. We're not talking about the days you were in residency.

Also, if the program offers no sick days, then obviously there is no controversy. If your kiddo is sick, tough. I'm referring to programs that DO give sick days and DO have backup/jeopardy call..
 
Sure. However, things have changed now. Look at the work hour restrictions. We're not talking about the days you were in residency.
.l..

actually it's worse now because the program has a lot less flexibility to reallocate residents without running afoul of the duty hours. If all the residents are already pushing 75+ hours it's hard to staff an absent persons 12 hour absence. In the "olden" days, someone could have simply been ramped up to 90 hours to fill the void.
 
Where are these programs with no sick days? Admittedly I'm in a cushy specialty, but sick days are usually university policy, so even the surgery/medicine folks get them. I don't think I interviewed at a single program last year that didn't offer sick leave. I guess I could see mixing in sick and vacation leave in some generalized leave pool, but can you get away with no sick days?

Anyway, so glad I'm not in the same type of program training as lots of you guys. Yay for being on the west coast and for being a lifestyle friendly field, I guess.
 
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Where are these programs with no sick days? Admittedly I'm in a cushy specialty, but sick days are usually university policy, so even the surgery/medicine folks get them. I don't think I interviewed at a single program last year that didn't offer sick leave. I guess I could sick mixing in sick and vacation leave in some generalized leave pool, but can you get away with no sick days?

Anyway, so glad I'm in the same type of program training as lots of you guys. Yay for being on the west coast and for being a lifestyle friendly field, I guess.

We have no sick days. You can take disability or FMLA, but there are no built in sick days. We do have an emergency coverage plan, but you pay back any time you call in.
 
Sure. However, things have changed now. Look at the work hour restrictions. We're not talking about the days you were in residency.

Yes, things have changed, but my old programs still do not offer sick days nor do they have backup call.

Also, if the program offers no sick days, then obviously there is no controversy. If your kiddo is sick, tough. I'm referring to programs that DO give sick days and DO have backup/jeopardy call..

Of course. However, you made it sound like every program had sick days and backup call. Some never did, and still do not.

Not sure what you're so hostile about.
 
It seems there are two issues here:

1. Should you use sick days if you have a child that is sick- I would argue no. The point of sick days (if you have them) is to allow you time if you are sick. Not having appropriate child care arrangments in place does not fall under that. Using it for child care becomes a slippery slope in my opinion. If someone who has a child uses it when their child is sick why shouldn't a resident who doesn't have a child be able to use it to check on a sick parent for example.

2. I'm certain there are programs that have no sick days as demonstrated above. However, while I understand an unexpected absence is a serious problem for some programs, having a sick resident come in and provide patient care can be irresponsible. As a radiation oncologist, I see a fair number of people who have undergone chemo recently. If i were to come in with the flu and transmit it to them, I could do more harm than good. I would think the same would apply in medicine and surgery where you have patients who are bordering on unstable and the further insult of a cold/flu/stomach flu/etc. could tip them over the edge. For those that are currently applying, I would advise against going to programs with no sick leave. If they don't value your well being enough to provide sick days, it speaks to some degree to the institutions value of residents/personnel.
 
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2. I'm certain there are programs that have no sick days as demonstrated above. However, while I understand an unexpected absence is a serious problem for some programs, having a sick resident come in and provide patient care can be irresponsible. As a radiation oncologist, I see a fair number of people who have undergone chemo recently. If i were to come in with the flu and transmit it to them, I could do more harm than good. I would think the same would apply in medicine and surgery where you have patients who are bordering on unstable and the further insult of a cold/flu/stomach flu/etc. could tip them over the edge. For those that are currently applying, I would advise against going to programs with no sick leave. If they don't value your well being enough to provide sick days, it speaks to some degree to the institutions value of residents/personnel.

In most cases you can wear a mask or gloves to minimize passing a cold onto patients. But even if that isn't adequate, you could always be in the hospital fielding pages, calling consults, doing dictations, putting in orders, and a host of other non-hands-on tasks. Additionally, in many cases the symptoms of a cold/flu come later, from your immune system, not the bug, meaning you have been passing on the bug throughout the hospital for several days already before you even feel sick. You've already exposed the patients and coworkers you see daily by that point.
 
Where are these programs with no sick days? Admittedly I'm in a cushy specialty, but sick days are usually university policy, so even the surgery/medicine folks get them....

There are many programs with no sick days. Some that theoretically have sick days won't even really have sick days. And not all programs are university programs. And of the places that do have sick days, unless they call them personal days, these are not days you are going to be allowed to use for child care.

It's really not an uncommon thing in certain specialty residencies for the program to be lean and counting on everyone to show up every day without excuses, sick or not. If you are too sick to see patients, there are always other things you can do. The point is you have to show up and let them make the decision as to what you can do.
 
There are many programs with no sick days. Some that theoretically have sick days won't even really have sick days. And not all programs are university programs. And of the places that do have sick days, unless they call them personal days, these are not days you are going to be allowed to use for child care.

It's really not an uncommon thing in certain specialty residencies for the program to be lean and counting on everyone to show up every day without excuses, sick or not. If you are too sick to see patients, there are always other things you can do. The point is you have to show up and let them make the decision as to what you can do.

I dont know where you train or your experiences but this is way off from the experiences I've had after 5 years of residency. My institution, and more specifically my program, do not want you coming in to take care of other work besides patient care while you are sick. If you are truly sick, cold/flu/etc. to the point that you don't feel you can complete your duties or even lesser duties you take the day-days off. There is an inherent trust that you won't abuse the system, in the same way the program is placing trust in you as a physician. Any program that is operating on such a thin margin that 1 extra resident being out sick cannot be accomodated is not operating appropriately in my opinon. Doctors are not above taking sick days and shouldn't feel that it's a sign of a weak resident. Once again, I would advise all future residents to avoid programs like the one Law2Doc is mentioning, its obvious these programs care more about getting work done then the well being of their residents because if you are that sick, you are certainly not in a position to learn only to do work.
 
In most cases you can wear a mask or gloves to minimize passing a cold onto patients. But even if that isn't adequate, you could always be in the hospital fielding pages, calling consults, doing dictations, putting in orders, and a host of other non-hands-on tasks. Additionally, in many cases the symptoms of a cold/flu come later, from your immune system, not the bug, meaning you have been passing on the bug throughout the hospital for several days already before you even feel sick. You've already exposed the patients and coworkers you see daily by that point.

I work in an outpatient facility (cancer center). While we can wear mask/gloves, our program respects us enough to allow us to take sick days when we are ill. If you are too sick for direct patient care, coming in to do busy work is ridiculous. Why not get extra rest, recover and come back to work? I understand you are infectious before you manifest symptoms, however, you are still contagious up to some point while manifesting symptoms and as an outpatient center, we see new patients every day pretty much.
 
...Once again, I would advise all future residents to avoid programs like the one Law2Doc is mentioning, its obvious these programs care more about getting work done then the well being of their residents because if you are that sick, you are certainly not in a position to learn only to do work.

This kind of "no sick days" approach isn't at all rare in residency, particularly in certain specialties. If you look through the last page of this thread, in addition to my own experience you will see that Winged Scapula, SoCuteMD, deuist all have had exposure to this kind of residency (presumably at different places). To "avoid programs like" this may mean staying out of certain specialties altogether.
 
This kind of "no sick days" approach isn't at all rare in residency, particularly in certain specialties. If you look through the last page of this thread, in addition to my own experience you will see that Winged Scapula, SoCuteMD, deuist all have had exposure to this kind of residency (presumably at different places). To "avoid programs like" this may mean staying out of certain specialties altogether.

Like I said above, I don't doubt that there are are lots of programs like this. That being said, I have friends and family in residency in a variety of specialties from primary care to surgery to subspecialties and I can't think of one that I know of that doesn't have sick days and this is in programs that range from prestigous university programs to community programs. Maybe some specialties have more of this than others but from my experiences and sharing notes with lots of other residents not having sick days is an exception to the norm.
 
My program also didn't have sick days. They still do not, I checked the 2011 contracts online. Oh yeah, and our contracts were generic for ALL residents at my insititution (several hundred people), not just my specialty. Residents who became seriously ill and were out for a while were accommodated under FMLA. I actually don't know off-hand any friends who had a sick day policy in their programs.

Keep in mind that sick days are reportable to your specialty boards agency. If you take too many days (collectively) over your entire residency, you can end up a few days shy of meeting board requirements. This is why some programs have residents use vacation days if they are sick, so it doesn't mess with their overall number of 'days served'. So your option is to not be board eligible or to make up days at the end, which *does* affect starting fellowship on time.
 
Our program also did not officially have sick days. Unless the PD took pity on us and voluntarily gave us the day off for obvious need of medical attention. One resident actually needed IVmeds and had to be admitted (for example). Otherwise, myself and others and have taken call while sick, fever and all.

I'm personally against the no sick day policy. This is not war and we are not soldiers. However, hopefully, the climate will change in the future as programs are forced to abide by social standards and labor laws. Realistically, their policy is inhumane, in my opinion, but, we have to remember that when we take time off, someone else has to cover, so that will always be a potential problem. As a chief, I had to pitch in for call when emergencies occurred and residents couldn't cover. But, if we have that type of team mentality, there should be no significant hurdle to calling in sick. Unfortunately, not everyone abides by honesty and the "team" dogma, so, we end up with individuals who may abuse that system. So, if we want to implement change, we can all start acting honestly and only call in sick if absolutely necessary. In time, we can help turn the policy around.
 
My program also didn't have sick days. They still do not, I checked the 2011 contracts online. Oh yeah, and our contracts were generic for ALL residents at my insititution (several hundred people), not just my specialty. Residents who became seriously ill and were out for a while were accommodated under FMLA. I actually don't know off-hand any friends who had a sick day policy in their programs.

Keep in mind that sick days are reportable to your specialty boards agency. If you take too many days (collectively) over your entire residency, you can end up a few days shy of meeting board requirements. This is why some programs have residents use vacation days if they are sick, so it doesn't mess with their overall number of 'days served'. So your option is to not be board eligible or to make up days at the end, which *does* affect starting fellowship on time.

I don't think it's written in to contracts per se. I think it's very department specific. My department for example, doesn't have a specific writtne protocol in place. If you are sick, you notify the chiefs and the program coordinator who documents it. My experience through interaction with multiple departments is that its department specific and often no formal rules are in place. I am pretty suprised by the number of programs that don't have sick days. It's pretty sad that the advice we often give to our patients when they are ill doesn't apply to ourselves when we are under the weather.
 
...It's pretty sad that the advice we often give to our patients when they are ill doesn't apply to ourselves when we are under the weather.

I've never advised a non-pediatric patient to skip work, that's between them and their employer. On request/demand, I've filled out forms for their employer which indicated that they had an illness, which presumably allowed them to stay home sick.
 
I've never advised a non-pediatric patient to skip work, that's between them and their employer. On request/demand, I've filled out forms for their employer which indicated that they had an illness, which presumably allowed them to stay home sick.

I dont know what specialty you're in but I really hope you don't become a chief. With attitudes like, if the resident isn't feeling well enough to do patient care they can answer pages/scut, I would hate to be a junior resident under you. Having just finished my chief year, I had a much different policy; if you were sick- stay home and if you come in and feel sick, go home. There will always be work and some days you pick up a little more to help a colleague out and in return when you're sick someone comes to bat for you. Simple enough.

Again, I dont know what field you are in but there are plenty of times during the peak of cold/flu season where I tell my patients to take a day or two off from work or until they are afebrile, recover from what they have, and then return to work. I would hope you would advise potentially infectious patients to stay away from work/public places as to avoid further transmission. Sure they may have already infected some before becoming symptomatic, but why not protect as many as possible.
 
I dont know what specialty you're in but I really hope you don't become a chief. With attitudes like, if the resident isn't feeling well enough to do patient care they can answer pages/scut, I would hate to be a junior resident under you. Having just finished my chief year, I had a much different policy; if you were sick- stay home and if you come in and feel sick, go home. There will always be work and some days you pick up a little more to help a colleague out and in return when you're sick someone comes to bat for you. Simple enough....

it's only "simple enough" if you have the man hours available that others can "pick up a little more" without violating duty hours. Lots of residencies run leaner than this. I'm happy for you that you picked a field/program where you have this flexibility. As I would hope you can tell from reading the posts of the five-six other people who posted on here whose programs also don't provide sick days, it's pretty common for some specialties to not provide sick days, and expect folks to come to work no matter what. Thats just the way it is -- not by anyone on here's choice. Thats the culture, the rules, and the practical situation some programs are in thanks to duty hours. You can demonize me all you want and suggest I shouldn't be chief, but I sure didnt make up these policies, and the both preexisted me and will continue long after I'm done with my residency, so don't give me this " I hope you never become chief" crap. Folks can only come to bat for you if they aren't already pulling their 80 hours, which in some specialties is the norm.
 
I dont know what specialty you're in but I really hope you don't become a chief....

also, there have been a rash of " I hope you never become chief"/ "you should never be a manager" type comments on multiple threads on SDN lately. They are almost inevitably made to folks with rather extensive manager/employer experience. I'm not sure why this sentiment is appearing so frequently lately, but I'd say it's a variation of Burnett's law to some extent. Let's cool it with this kind of nonsense.

In this case I think you are trying to blame me for how certain specialties are and always have been run. You want to ignore the fact that at least five other posters jumped on here and indicated their programs run the exact same way. If a place doesn't have the man hours to allow sick days, the greatest chief in the history of the program is still going to not allow sick days.
 
also, there have been a rash of " I hope you never become chief"/ "you should never be a manager" type comments on multiple threads on SDN lately. They are almost inevitably made to folks with rather extensive manager/employer experience. I'm not sure why this sentiment is appearing so frequently lately, but I'd say it's a variation of Burnett's law to some extent. Let's cool it with this kind of nonsense.

In this case I think you are trying to blame me for how certain specialties are and always have been run. You want to ignore the fact that at least five other posters jumped on here and indicated their programs run the exact same way. If a place doesn't have the man hours to allow sick days, the greatest chief in the history of the program is still going to not allow sick days.

The work hours rule allows for people to go over 80 hours as long is it averages out. So someone could help out 1 week and go over hours in exchange for the sick person maybe covering the following week and the average being under 80. Is it easy,no, but these things can be done. Also, many programs have at risk/back up situations for exactly this reason so that someone who is under the 80 hour cap on elective for example can take a hit and come and fill in. I've even seen situations where chiefs filled in for an intern because no one was available. That whole professionalism thing gets thrown around but to me this is where it's represented, taking it on the chin to help out a fellow colleague.

As for the other posters, they merely pointed out they had a no sick day policy. Fine, it is what it is. But you in multiple posts, defended the idea, saying that residents who are too sick for patient care should come in and help out. As someone who completed a transitional internship with medicine, surgery, etc months, I have seen residents get sick and have never seen a chief (good or bad) try to keep sick residents in house to complete the type of busy work as you suggested. That is why I think that you should not be a chief. If you become one, based on your comments here and other threads, you are doing a disservice to your junior colleagues. Maybe I'm lucky and those I know are lucky to be at programs/institutions that value resident well being and are structured to allow it. But I still know I wouldn't want you as a chief regardless.
 
I find this thread so funny because a bunch of doctors are arguing about sick days. Stay home a day or even half a day, sleep in, get better a few days faster vs. go to work and be sick for a few more days? I don't get it, I've never understood where this managerial decision came from in medicine or otherwise.
 
also, there have been a rash of " I hope you never become chief"/ "you should never be a manager" type comments on multiple threads on SDN lately. They are almost inevitably made to folks with rather extensive manager/employer experience. I'm not sure why this sentiment is appearing so frequently lately, but I'd say it's a variation of Burnett's law to some extent. Let's cool it with this kind of nonsense.

In this case I think you are trying to blame me for how certain specialties are and always have been run. You want to ignore the fact that at least five other posters jumped on here and indicated their programs run the exact same way. If a place doesn't have the man hours to allow sick days, the greatest chief in the history of the program is still going to not allow sick days.

It's your own fault. You come across as a cold-hearted, nonsensical SOB. And, I just graduated from a general surgery residency. So don't preach to me about cross coverage. We made it work, usually. It's takes a team effort and honesty. Why don't YOU cut the nonsense.
 
actually it's worse now because the program has a lot less flexibility to reallocate residents without running afoul of the duty hours. If all the residents are already pushing 75+ hours it's hard to staff an absent persons 12 hour absence. In the "olden" days, someone could have simply been ramped up to 90 hours to fill the void.

What are you talking about?

The 80 hour limit is an average over 4 weeks.

As long as you've not gone > 320 hours in that timeframe, you're fine.

Your argument fails in so many ways. Not allowing a genuinely sick resident off and instead forcing them to do scut or take consult pages? Really?
 
Why the hostility?

I was just using a generic example.

No hostility here. Just pointing out how you took my statement totally out of context. There's a major difference between a small "head cold" and someone (you or your kid) being genuinely ill. Sure, fine, don't take the sick day over a sick kid... but, if you can't work from your illness, you should be allowed to take off. That's what sick days (when avail) are for.

Yes, things have changed, but my old programs still do not offer sick days nor do they have backup call.



Of course. However, you made it sound like every program had sick days and backup call. Some never did, and still do not.

Not sure what you're so hostile about.

Thankfully, I'm not in such a program. Again, I'm not being hostile.
 
What are you talking about?

The 80 hour limit is an average over 4 weeks.

As long as you've not gone > 320 hours in that timeframe, you're fine.

Your argument fails in so many ways. Not allowing a genuinely sick resident off and instead forcing them to do scut or take consult pages? Really?

Incorrect. Because of the decreased hours of interns, it now takes 3 interns to do the work that 2 used to be able to do. Most programs didn't get a 50% increase in GME or hospital funding to make up for this, so they're having to stretch the same number of people over 50% more work hours (at least for interns).

So while the raw numbers you quote are correct, way more interns will be pushing 80 hours every single week and there won't be anybody to pick up the slack.

That said, not allowing sick days is total bullsh**.
 
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