Flight Surgeon/Gmo questions

[Red tail]

These questions are concerning a 4 year Army HPSP.

My recruiter tells me that if I was to do a GMO tour, for say 2 years, this would count towards paying back my time. I would have 2 years left to pay back, even after a 4 year military residency. I would have already payed back two years as a GMO and then after residency, only owe 2 years. Now if the residency was longer than 4 years, say 5 years, I would owe an additional year. 3 years

2 year GMO tour ( owe 2 more years)
Graduate from a 5 year Army residency ( serve for 3 years)

Is this true? From the the research I have done on this site, it seems that this is not true for the Navy. I have not seen anyone say what it was for the Army.


Are there many non-resident trained Flight Surgeons in the Army, or are most Army Flight Surgeons, Family docs?

I have read the Army handbook about Flight Surgeon roles, but it didn't really explain much. Can someone tell me the day to day duties of a Flight Surgeon? If you are assigned to a medical squadron, can you participate in training excercises and search and rescue missions? Do you train the medics who are your medical squadron?

I have read that most Flight Surgeon tours are only 2 years, but would it be possible to extend your tour for one more year and exit the military ( if you did a 3 year HPSP)?

I have heard that Marine GMO's have the opportunity to participate in a few 6 week courses like Tropical and cold weather medicine. Would anyone know if Army GMO's have that same opportunity?

These are some ot the things that I have been trying to research. There are many posts on here for Navy and Air Force Flight Surgeons, but not much on the Army.

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[torshi]

not really sure but if I accepted the scholarship I would just finish all 4 years before residency then move on to a civilian residency.

 

[SDN]

These questions are concerning a 4 year Army HPSP.

Are there many non-resident trained Flight Surgeons in the Army, or are most Army Flight Surgeons, Family docs?

I have read the Army handbook about Flight Surgeon roles, but it didn't really explain much. Can someone tell me the day to day duties of a Flight Surgeon? If you are assigned to a medical squadron, can you participate in training excercises and search and rescue missions? Do you train the medics who are your medical squadron?

Some are GMO and some are residency trained in EM, FM, etc.

Day to day duties of a FS: sick call, physicals, admin duties, paperwork - it's primary care medicine for flight crews.

 

[Red tail]

I appreciate the reply.

I understand the concept of a Flight Surgeon quite well. I guess I am trying to understand the extra duties of a Flight Surgeon.

 

[Apollyon]

Day to day duties of a FS: sick call, physicals, admin duties, paperwork - it's primary care medicine for flight crews.

In other words, primary care for very, very healthy, young individuals. In other, other words, quite boring (to most).

 

[Red tail]

Sorry about that. I should of been a liitle more clear with my post. I am not totally in the dark about it. I definately understand the gist of a flight surgeon. I know someone quite well who used to be an Air Force Flight Surgeon. I also know someone who was a Navy GMO. But I do not know anyone who has been an Army Flight Surgeon. I am hoping to find specific information as outlined above.

 

[SDN]

I appreciate the reply.

I understand the concept of a Flight Surgeon quite well. I guess I am trying to understand the extra duties of a Flight Surgeon.

Extra duties?

Fly a few hours per month.
Participate in training of your medics.

Hooah stuff?

Not much CONUS. In theatre you might do some air MEDEVAC stuff, but usually it's the same schedule as noted in my earlier post.

 

[torshi]

Extra duties?

Fly a few hours per month.
Participate in training of your medics.

Hooah stuff?

Not much CONUS. In theatre you might do some air MEDEVAC stuff, but usually it's the same schedule as noted in my earlier post.

So the whole dream of traveling or seeing new places isn't really that great or obtainable, I hear a lot saying it depends on your billet etc what your assigned to go do for your tour. I wouldn't mind doing the boring things overseas ;p

 

[SDN]

Your chances of travel overseas is the same as any other operational doc.

 

[Red tail]

Alright. So basically the same as the Air Force, but without the longer Flight Surgeon course.


Would anyone happen to know the answer to my first question regarding time served? Doing a search on this site has made me more confused. It seems as though most posts on here are from Navy physicians. I have found the information spelled out quite well for the Navy HPSP and I can verify that from my friend who served as a GMO. There was one post I found that said the Air Force and Army HPSP was different in the wat you payed back your time. Are there any Army physicians here that can verify how it works in the Army? Is it exactly the same as the Navy? Even though you do a 2 year GMO tour, you still would owe 4 years after a 4 year residency?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

The contracts and repayment are the same. The only difference is the number of opportunities for in-service training straight-through (i.e., no pre-residency GMO) is greater in the Army because they have more hospitals and more residency slots. In the Air Force, there has been less (not none, though) post-internship GMO requirements than the Navy and more deferments for full civilian training (the AF has fewer training hospitals and fewer residencies.)

 

[pgg]

My recruiter tells me

Danger, Will Robinson!

You've come to the right place though.

that if I was to do a GMO tour, for say 2 years, this would count towards paying back my time. I would have 2 years left to pay back, even after a 4 year military residency. I would have already payed back two years as a GMO and then after residency, only owe 2 years. Now if the residency was longer than 4 years, say 5 years, I would owe an additional year. 3 years

2 year GMO tour ( owe 2 more years)
Graduate from a 5 year Army residency ( serve for 3 years)

Is this true? From the the research I have done on this site, it seems that this is not true for the Navy. I have not seen anyone say what it was for the Army.

It is not true. After GMO time, if you did a 5 year Army (inservice) residency you would owe 5 more years.

I posted an example of the math in this thread recently. That was a Navy thread, but when it comes to medical education and GME payback, all services calculate time served/owed the same way.

 

[Red tail]

I appreciate the replies. Things are definately making more since now. I thought it would be that way until I read one post that said it was different for the Army and Air Force. But now I can see why it is different.

 

[torshi]

yes military residency counts for more payback.

A lot of recruiters obv lie or have no idea and just pull crap out of their butt to satisfy you.

I would want to finish all active duty time before residency and I asked if most people do this, but i didn't tell him I personally wanted to. The recruiter responded saying no like it's never possible and said you go to your residency and then serve etc, he probably was thinking i didn't want to do it that way but in reality that's what i wanted... So right there it's just a bunch of BS

 

[River Rat]

anyone know what the procedure is for applying for a civilian residency after a stint as a GMO for 2-ish years with the Air Force? I would still be obliged for 2 more years of ADT, but wanted to know how realistic it would be to hope to be able to get a PGY-2 deferral for civilian rads as a GMO. Or is it something that would prob better be obtained by going straight through as a GMO, and then separating from the military to begin residency training in the civilian world?

Also, am curious how you go about actually applying for civilian residency programs (advanced programs that required a PGY-1 internship/transitional year) while serving on active duty as a GMO. Would you be applying for a PGY-2 spot right off the bat or would that require you to repeat internship year? It also seems like it will be fairly difficult and no guarantee to be able to interview for different programs throughout interview season while serving as a GMO, whether you're in your 2nd year as a GMO or your last year. Also, will all my LORs be outdated by then (dean's letter included?)

Currently a 3rd year student, hoping for the best next year, but preparing for however things turn up. Just want to be ready to have all my ducks lined up in a row and to be ready for anything that may happen. I'm not that neurotic, I promise.

 

[Red tail]

I have a few more questions. My recruiter dosen't know any flight surgeons and was supposed to get back with me on information and contacts.

Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to get a Flight Surgeon billet? I have heard that it can be difficult to get one in the Navy, but haven't heard anything about the Army. Also, is it difficult to get assigned to a MEDEVAC unit?

I still haven't found anything on if you can extend a Flight Surgeon tour by a year or two. Anyone know?

 

[Red tail]

I guess there are not many Army physicians or Army GMO's on this board?

 

[vikingsfan]

Army flight surgeon slots should not be hard to get..though more of those spots are being filled by residency trained physicians, I still see a handful, of people straight from internship.

Assignment as an army flight surgeon will not be with just a MEDEVAC unit. Those type of units (MEDEVAC companies) are now routinely a part of a general aviation battalion (including chinooks and Blackhawks).

I've heard of a hanfull of Army flight surgeons who have extended past their initial tour...

If you have more questions feel free to PM me.

 

[Red tail]

Thank you for the reply.

My recruiter had thought the MEDEVAC units were apart of battalion units, but wasn't for sure.

I sent you a pm with a few more questions.

 

[grumbo]

As an Army flight surgeon, I might be able to help answer some questions. First, it's not difficult to get a flight surgeon slot. There are usually more slots than people who want them, but it varies from year to year. However, not all flight surgeon slots are created equal. An aviatio brigade has several flight surgeons, but their roles are sometimes different. There are area support battalions, attack batallions, etc. The battalion that has the medevac unit is the general area support battalion (gsab). If you were the gsab flight surgeon, more of your job is working with training the flight medics. When deployed, most of the flight surgeons in the brigade will help with medevac as a supplemental duty, but the primary coordination is still the gsab doc. However, as was posted above, most of your work when in garrison or deployed is still clinic for mostly healthy soldiers and admin work. How much you fly and in what capacity is extremely variable as well. Since the gsab FS tends to be more involved with training the medics, there's been a push to use more residency trained docs in these roles, but nothing is absolute in the army. Also, some FS slots have nothing to do with flying, but the slot was made as a FS slot to keep it specialty neutral (ER, FM, IM, etc). Civil affairs does that for most of their slots, but they have nothing to do with flying for the most part. Hope that helps.

 

[Red tail]

Thanks so much for your reply. You gave me a lot of information I was looking for. I really appreciate it. I just sent you a pm with a few more questions if you wouldn't mind answering.

 

[ThunderHorse]

If it's not private stuff, I'd be interested in hearing about the questions and answers; there's not very much info on army FS outside of there being aviation billets and non aviation FS billets.

Would you recommend finishing residency and then taking a FS assignment, or taking the FS course and assignment after internship year, more like a GMO route? Or would you only do it for residency application points?

 

[grumbo]

I definitely recommend finishing residency before doing a FS job (or any GMO job for that matter). It's a challenge to do one year of a challenging internship, go do an operational job (which is generally a much easier schedule), and then try to return to the grueling scheule of residency. I've seen GMOs come back and then quit residency becuase they got comfortable with having weekends and holidays off. They got comfortable with having some control over their schedules. They just weren't willing to get back into the grind of residency. In addition, I feel like we owe the soldiers better care. Yes some people will say that they're young and healthy so you don't need a residency trained doc taking care of them. While that's true of many situations, there are plenty of situations that a less trained doctor just doesn't know how to treat. After intern year, you might not recognize thoracic outlet syndrome. You might not be comfortable with those injections. You might get great at prescribing motrin, mucinex, and azithromycin like the PAs, but you won't know that there are better ways of treating your patients.

With all that said, some people feel like they just need to get out of residency for a while and take a break. Being a FS wouldn't be a bad way to spend a GMO if you felt you had to be a GMO. I just wouldn't plan it that way.

 

[83462]

Grumbo- Thanks for your responses. What do you think about the difficulty of obtaining a residency of choice after a GMO tour? I am a 3rd year med student just a little bit off cycle... This makes it pretty much impossible for me to (1) finish step 2 before applying for residencies (2) Interview and rotate at choice locations and plus (3) I just don't feel ready to make a career decision regarding my residency. [PS. Despite this... I am required to apply this year] How hard is it to apply for residency out of a transitional year (still off cycle) vs. post GMO vs. right out of medical school? I don't feel ready to make this choice yet both because I haven't made a decision and being off cycle makes me less competitive.

 

[Aegis]

I definitely recommend finishing residency before doing a FS job (or any GMO job for that matter). It's a challenge to do one year of a challenging internship, go do an operational job (which is generally a much easier schedule), and then try to return to the grueling scheule of residency. I've seen GMOs come back and then quit residency becuase they got comfortable with having weekends and holidays off. They got comfortable with having some control over their schedules. They just weren't willing to get back into the grind of residency. In addition, I feel like we owe the soldiers better care. Yes some people will say that they're young and healthy so you don't need a residency trained doc taking care of them. While that's true of many situations, there are plenty of situations that a less trained doctor just doesn't know how to treat. After intern year, you might not recognize thoracic outlet syndrome. You might not be comfortable with those injections. You might get great at prescribing motrin, mucinex, and azithromycin like the PAs, but you won't know that there are better ways of treating your patients.

With all that said, some people feel like they just need to get out of residency for a while and take a break. Being a FS wouldn't be a bad way to spend a GMO if you felt you had to be a GMO. I just wouldn't plan it that way.

<sigh>... I agree with some things you are saying, but have some major beef with some of it as well. I'm a GMO flight doc for the last four years with AFSOC. Agree that the schedule is pretty light, and I could see how residency is going to be a challenge, but I certainly wouldn't say prior GMO docs dropping out of residency is the norm. I've known several GMOs that have gone back to residency and done quite well, if anything this is a rare exception to the rule. Regarding providing substandard care because we are GMOs is a philosophy I used to buy into myself. Until I deployed a couple of times with old crusty family docs that just didn't care anymore and were basically riding out their careers in the military. I'm very humble about my limited breadth of medical knowledge, but I am motivated, and when I'm all alone in a remote clinic I'm scared, so I'm constantly reading and trying to make up for my lack of training. So, I can say without any doubts that there have been times when I have been a more capable provider than some of my residency training cohorts! If you went to residency 10 years ago, and have been vegetating in flight medicine ever since and not keeping up with anything, I'm sorry there is no way that person is more capable than a motivated GMO!

Furthermore, if you're not sure what you want to do after med school, have some flexibility in your life than being a FS can be a pretty sweet gig. Find a more operational billet, avoid being attached to a med group, and try to go SOF!