+/- Flipped Classroom method, a curious list & poll

[Guero]

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The pre-clinical flipped classroom paradigm has caused much turmoil between students and faculty at some schools. I'm just curious how many schools utilize the format, whether somewhat (+/-), entirely/mostly (+), or not at all (-), and the class sizes of each respective school. I'm not sure if this will catch on, but felt it was worth while considering my curiosity and the rapidly evolving undergraduate medical education system. We could even txfr this to the pre-med forums if we get enough responses since it might help them evaluate potential schools based on their individual learning styles.

Please feel free to edit and repost with a source link to avoid error/hearsay.

+/- East Virginia Medical School n=150
+/- Yale Medical School n=100
+ UTHSC College of Medicine n=165

All hail to exam week procrastination...

 

[Mass Effect]

What?

 

[NickNaylor]

Why on earth would schools do a flipped format? You're an adult - you will learn the best way that you can irrespective of how a school designs its curriculum. Besides, I would argue that nearly all curricula are already "flipped" in the sense that you will likely be reading/studying before lectures and then attending lecture as a "review" to cover what you've already studied and an opportunity to clarify confusing points. That's assuming you attend lecture at all.

This kind of structure is really more for younger students who may not have the maturity or determination to simply grind it out and do the work necessary to make it through.

 

[Guero]

Why on earth would schools do a flipped format? You're an adult - you will learn the best way that you can irrespective of how a school designs its curriculum. Besides, I would argue that nearly all curricula are already "flipped" in the sense that you will likely be reading/studying before lectures and then attending lecture as a "review" to cover what you've already studied and an opportunity to clarify confusing points. That's assuming you attend lecture at all.

This kind of structure is really more for younger students who may not have the maturity or determination to simply grind it out and do the work necessary.

Hah, if only faculty/admin were that observant and pragmatic. 🙂

 

[Psai]

What is this

 

[Guero]

What?

What is this

http://go.nmc.org/flip

 

[Guero]

It's yet another way some schools are responding to recent LCME requirements to integrate "more active learning" into their curricula in addition to team/problem based learning.

 

[Psai]

Students teaching? No thanks. It'd be nice to have neurologists teaching neurology or surgeons teaching anatomy. Have someone that does it everyday tell you what to look for, what to avoid etc. Just give me a list of things to learn, good resources and I'll do it myself

 

[Guero]

Students teaching? No thanks. It'd be nice to have neurologists teaching neurology or surgeons teaching anatomy. Have someone that does it everyday tell you what to look for, what to avoid etc. Just give me a list of things to learn, good resources and I'll do it myself

"Students teaching"? Where did you see that? It's still a faculty led paradigm, but with an "intent" that focuses on increasing student-faculty interaction and discussion during class rather than straight didactic lecture. Nevertheless, the purpose was to see how many other schools were using this method with a poll assessing whether students participating in the model approved, disapproved, or were indifferent.

 

[Psai]

6th paragraph after video says desai flipped already flipped model with student made videos. It's in the link you posted

 

[Guero]

6th paragraph after video says desai flipped already flipped model with student made videos. It's in the link you posted

That's unique to the Khan academy's enhancement of the concept as applied to their MCAT-prep course, not medical education (see below, direct quote with emphasis). My initial response still applies, which emphasizes that per the LCME and as far as medical school education is considered, Flipped Class is a faculty-led Q&A format with students rather than traditional didactic lecture, with pre-recorded lectures that are watched at home in preparation.

"In response, Desai flipped the already-flipped model, making students the stars of the videos -- at least in the short term. The Khan Academy has partnered with the Association of American Medical Colleges to produce test prep for the revised Medical College Admission Test, due out in 2015. The resources, set to launch in a few weeks, will feature student-made videos, peer-reviewed by medical professors."

 

[PL198]

"Students teaching"? Where did you see that? It's still a faculty led paradigm, but with an "intent" that focuses on increasing student-faculty interaction and discussion during class rather than straight didactic lecture. Nevertheless, the purpose was to see how many other schools were using this method with a poll assessing whether students participating in the model approved, disapproved, or were indifferent.

wait s you mean people ask more questions? how is that called flipped then

I'm pretty sure if it were actually flipped, then students would be teaching the class, aka what is the point of professors

 

[PL198]

this sounds like a really good way for schools to increase their margins. just send a grad student to OK whatever the student teaching says. Now your faculty can focus more on research or you don't have to pay them to teach class.

 

[Guero]

wait s you mean people ask more questions? how is that called flipped then

I'm pretty sure if it were actually flipped, then students would be teaching the class, aka what is the point of professors

Flipped = doing the initial lecture/material at home and attending an interactive session w/faculty and peers during traditional scheduled classtime. I didn't invent the term.
The origins are at Stanford, about to replace the link: http://smili.stanford.edu/interactive-learning/index.html

 

[PL198]

wait so then isn't like every medical school flipped or are there still schools that don't record lecture

 

[Guero]

The "pre-recorded" lectures are your main material. The lectures during classtime are also recorded, but center on clicker questions and discussion.

 

[22031 Alum]

I take issue with this quote:

• “Like most med students, I never went to class,” Desai said. “It’s so silly that I spent thousands of dollars on tuition, and I learned it all myself anyway.”

Tuition covered my access to course materials, labs, and professors, the right to sit for exams, etc. I only earned my degree because of that access. The fact that I chose to skip most lectures doesn't mean I learned it all myself. It means I used my own initiative to learn in the way that fit me best, using resources compiled by the school, which were given to me in exchange for my tuition.

 

[username456789]

"Flipped classroom" is just a euphemism for lazier teaching. It shifts the burden from the professor to the student.

 

[Kahreek]

...

 

[charmiedermie]

The pre-clinical flipped classroom paradigm has caused much turmoil between students and faculty at some schools. I'm just curious how many schools utilize the format, whether somewhat (+/-), entirely/mostly (+), or not at all (-), and the class sizes of each respective school. I'm not sure if this will catch on, but felt it was worth while considering my curiosity and the rapidly evolving undergraduate medical education system. We could even txfr this to the pre-med forums if we get enough responses since it might help them evaluate potential schools based on their individual learning styles.

Please feel free to edit and repost with a source link to avoid error/hearsay.

+/- East Virginia Medical School n=150
+/- Yale Medical School n=100
+ UTHSC College of Medicine n=165

All hail to exam week procrastination...

So in other words PBL or TBL. How do u know it is causing turmoil?

 

[sunealoneal]

Since most students learn on their own time outside the classroom, I think it makes sense for professors to only cover the more difficult topics or go through second order questions in class.

So in other words PBL or TBL. How do u know it is causing turmoil?

I would characterize PBL as a subset of flipped classrooms. The professor could just spend their time going over topics instead of giving vignettes for students to solve.

 

[Mad Jack]

Sounds very similar to a lot of the stuff we do at my school. We've got vignettes, weekly problems, standardized patient encounters starting in the first month, etc. It's a weird mix of PBL (we call it CBL), lecture, and in-class learning and activities. I like it, personally.

 

[shibby1111]

going to lecture is a waste of time flipped or not flipped. if you can't teach yourself the nerves of the arm then you're stupid and shouldn't be in medical school

 

[Guero]

So in other words PBL or TBL. How do u know it is causing turmoil?

Direct feedback from both faculty and students from my own school and others, very mixed and emphatic.

Since most students learn on their own time outside the classroom, I think it makes sense for professors to only cover the more difficult topics or go through second order questions in class.



I would characterize PBL as a subset of flipped classrooms. The professor could just spend their time going over topics instead of giving vignettes for students to solve.

See below, as @Mad Jack summed it up well.

Sounds very similar to a lot of the stuff we do at my school. We've got vignettes, weekly problems, standardized patient encounters starting in the first month, etc. It's a weird mix of PBL (we call it CBL), lecture, and in-class learning and activities. I like it, personally.

While the PBL/TBL paradigms are usually an adjunct, I think one of the Chicago schools offers an either or option to its students, supplying an either entirely didactic or an entirely PBL-based curriculum. Our school is exactly like yours, though, a mixture of it all, with high emphasis on "flipped" style lectures for most of the pre-clin material.

 

[sunealoneal]

Direct feedback from both faculty and students from my own school and others, very mixed and emphatic.
See below, as @Mad Jack summed it up well.

While the PBL/TBL paradigms are usually an adjunct, I think one of the Chicago schools offers an either or option to its students, supplying an either entirely didactic or an entirely PBL-based curriculum. Our school is exactly like yours, though, a mixture of it all, with high emphasis on "flipped" style lectures for most of the pre-clin material.

Yeah my curriculum is similar, the proportion of didactic lectures to flipped is much higher unfortunately.

 

[referee3]

I had some experience with this at RWJMS and it's pretty useless. Basically we just had to read a info packet before class and than went through a ppt as usually but had more questions asked to us. Not very different from regular lecture at all.

 

[Guero]

Yeah my curriculum is similar, the proportion of didactic lectures to flipped is much higher unfortunately.

I had some experience with this at RWJMS and it's pretty useless. Basically we just had to read a info packet before class and than went through a ppt as usually but had more questions asked to us. Not very different from regular lecture at all.

Thank you! This is exactly what I wanted, more representation of opinions and elaborations. It seems like there's a legit dichotomy of preferences nearly down the middle. Unfortunately, I think a great deal of that divide lies in the variability of effective implementation of material, technology, and time, as well as realizing limitations, when it just won't work, such as when large class size precludes efficacy.

 

[referee3]

Thank you! This is exactly what I wanted, more representation of opinions and elaborations. It seems like there's a legit dichotomy of preferences nearly down the middle. Unfortunately, I think a great deal of that divide lies in the variability of effective implementation of material, technology, and time, as well as realizing limitations, when it just won't work, such as when large class size precludes efficacy.

Agree. It could have worked, but it was very poorly planned out and just kinda thrown into the curiculum.

 

[sunealoneal]

Our class has 160ish people, the flipped lectures used clickers and then sparse discussions over the mics.

I personally dislike normal lectures, mostly because it's mandatory for us. Seriously, DON'T go to a school with mandatory lectures. Find out when you interview how easy it is for the students to circumvent the rules.

 

[Guero]

Our class has 160ish people, the flipped lectures used clickers and then sparse discussions over the mics.

I personally dislike normal lectures, mostly because it's mandatory for us. Seriously, DON'T go to a school with mandatory lectures. Find out when you interview how easy it is for the students to circumvent the rules.

I'm not usually one to agree with blanket statements; but I couldn't agree with you more. People NEED that option. So many students gradually discover whether they learn best in class or outside of class. Personally, I'd have failed or become a misanthrope if I was required to attend every lecture. I think we should emphasize that to the premed forums somewhere in the interview stickies, if it isn't already.

 

[PL198]

the schools are going to sugarcoat their attendance policy. the only way you're actually going to hear the legit attendance policy is online from anons. you think their suck up they pair you with to give a tour is going to tell it to you straight up? yeah right.

 

[alpinism]

Ah yes, the flipped classroom.

Our school experimented with this for a couple of our M2 courses.


Basically you watch some 20-30min introductory podcast the night before, then get into small groups the next day and go through clinical case scenarios one at a time. Each group gets a set of brightly colored cards with letters on them corresponding to each answer choice (reminded me of kindergarden). The professor goes though powerpoint slides and slowly reveals the whole case scenario one slide at a time. Along the way there are questions for things like: what do you want to know next about the patient? (H&P questions), which labs do you want to order?, imaging studies? etc... After talking it over each group holds up the card with their answer choice.

Takes like an hour to go over 5 cases.

Basically twice the time to do half the learning.

For the 90min spent doing the "flipped classroom", you could have easily watched a 50min lecture at 2x speed and knocked out at least 30 q bank questions.

 

[Guero]

Ah yes, the flipped classroom.

Our school experimented with this for a couple of our M2 courses.


Basically you watch some 20-30min introductory podcast the night before, then get into small groups the next day and go through clinical case scenarios one at a time. Each group gets a set of brightly colored cards with letters on them corresponding to each answer choice (reminded me of kindergarden). The professor goes though powerpoint slides and slowly reveals the whole case scenario one slide at a time. Along the way there are questions for things like: what do you want to know next about the patient? (H&P questions), which labs do you want to order?, imaging studies? etc... After talking it over each group holds up the card with their answer choice.

Takes like an hour to go over 5 cases.

Basically twice the time to do half the learning.

For the 90min spent doing the "flipped classroom", you could have easily watched a 50min lecture at 2x speed and knocked out at least 20 q bank questions.

Again some confusion between flipped class and PBL/TBL. What you described, groups and bright cards, is the epitome of PBL/TBL:

 

[PL198]

Ah yes, the flipped classroom.

Our school experimented with this for a couple of our M2 courses.


Basically you watch some 20-30min introductory podcast the night before, then get into small groups the next day and go through clinical case scenarios one at a time. Each group gets a set of brightly colored cards with letters on them corresponding to each answer choice (reminded me of kindergarden). The professor goes though powerpoint slides and slowly reveals the whole case scenario one slide at a time. Along the way there are questions for things like: what do you want to know next about the patient? (H&P questions), which labs do you want to order?, imaging studies? etc... After talking it over each group holds up the card with their answer choice.

Takes like an hour to go over 5 cases.

Basically twice the time to do half the learning.

For the 90min spent doing the "flipped classroom", you could have easily watched a 50min lecture at 2x speed and knocked out at least 30 q bank questions.

thats the problem with "group learning"

any time you go over stuff with an entire class, it's going to take forever because like 1/4 of the people won't understand no matter what you do

 

[PL198]

if schools were smart, they'd look at what pathoma and uworld provide and try to do something similar. I'm not saying only cover high yield, but I'm saying presenting information in that manner with someone that makes things so easy is great. make a school q bank for the minutiae

 

[Psai]

Ah yes, the flipped classroom.

Our school experimented with this for a couple of our M2 courses.


Basically you watch some 20-30min introductory podcast the night before, then get into small groups the next day and go through clinical case scenarios one at a time. Each group gets a set of brightly colored cards with letters on them corresponding to each answer choice (reminded me of kindergarden). The professor goes though powerpoint slides and slowly reveals the whole case scenario one slide at a time. Along the way there are questions for things like: what do you want to know next about the patient? (H&P questions), which labs do you want to order?, imaging studies? etc... After talking it over each group holds up the card with their answer choice.

Takes like an hour to go over 5 cases.

Basically twice the time to do half the learning.

For the 90min spent doing the "flipped classroom", you could have easily watched a 50min lecture at 2x speed and knocked out at least 30 q bank questions.

Oh yeah, we actually had this, it was bull****. Such a waste of time although if we were doing it with a real patient with a real doctor it probably would have been way better. Also if we knew what we were doing...

 

[TheRobin]

The pre-clinical flipped classroom paradigm has caused much turmoil between students and faculty at some schools. I'm just curious how many schools utilize the format, whether somewhat (+/-), entirely/mostly (+), or not at all (-), and the class sizes of each respective school.

Our school utilizes the flipped classroom approach for a couple of courses. As someone who learns best by attending traditional didactic lectures, I found that the only true advantage to the flipped approach was having a little bit more time for anatomy lab dissections.

 

[alpinism]

Again some confusion between flipped class and PBL/TBL. What you described, groups and bright cards, is the epitome of PBL/TBL:

Well they called it "flipped classroom" so whatever that means. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject.

FWIW we also had PBL which involved small groups going over cases on a computer then the whole classroom would discuss the cases afterwards with a facilitator present. These were in our small group rooms. The difference was that we didn't have to watch a podcast the night before or go through powerpoint slides of the cases one by one with the professor as a whole class. The flipped classroom was in a regular lecture hall.

 

[numberwunn]

I took Eric Mazur's class in undergrad (one of the originators of the flipped classroom). It was the worst class I took during all of my education, hands down (didn't help that it was E&M). While I had done well in a more advanced class the semester before, I struggled in his ... until I bought a new textbook and stopped attending lecture. Then my grades perked up!

In fairness, I think much of it was because we were using his as-yet unpublished physics textbook. It was awful.

That being said, I don't know how it would pan out in a medical setting. Often, I felt like that was what ended up happening on its own (watch pathoma, then attend lab where concepts are fleshed out by prof).

 

[Blizzard18]

I go to UTHSC. I hate the flipped format

 

[VisionaryTics]

All this crap is just a way for overpaid administrators with pointless graduate degrees in education to justify their existence. Has nothing to do with improving quality of medical school product.

Of course, same administrators will see the steady rise in Step 1 scores and attribute it to their bull**** rather than widespread use of high-quality learning tools like UWorld and Anki. Repetition and feedback. That's what learning is. And the 5 question quiz that takes 40 minutes to go over in PBL doesn't count.

 

[Psai]

All this crap is just a way for overpaid administrators with pointless graduate degrees in education to justify their existence. Has nothing to do with improving quality of medical school product.

Of course, same administrators will see the steady rise in Step 1 scores and attribute it to their bull**** rather than widespread use of high-quality learning tools like UWorld and Anki. Repetition and feedback. That's what learning is. And the 5 question quiz that takes 40 minutes to go over in PBL doesn't count.

****ing facts up in here
our administration actively hinders our learning process. just stop and get out of the damn way
it's as useless as inputting all of those stupid patient encounters into some stupid website. doesn't help us one bit

 

[PL198]

All this crap is just a way for overpaid administrators with pointless graduate degrees in education to justify their existence. Has nothing to do with improving quality of medical school product.

Of course, same administrators will see the steady rise in Step 1 scores and attribute it to their bull**** rather than widespread use of high-quality learning tools like UWorld and Anki. Repetition and feedback. That's what learning is. And the 5 question quiz that takes 40 minutes to go over in PBL doesn't count.

exactly.

 

[PL198]

"the enemy of a good plan is the idea of a great one"

why can't people just admit that modern lectures are ok? either a) you learn from lecture and use them b) you don't use them and you learn on your own. I don't think there are too many people who can't use one of those two. they need to stop trying to fix what isn't broken. lectures suck for me personally, but all this PBL stuff sucks about 1000x harder. it's like fighting fire with fire. oh you guys don't learn well by sitting in a lecture hall and having someone read to you? alright well now we're going to make it mandatory, make the pace 1/10th as fast and have you work at the same speed as everyone else. so much lack of logic.

it's funny because they can't iron out small details like proper scheduling ( ie having a 50 min mandatory session on a day when no one would be at the school, instead of just adding it to a day when people would be there) but they think they can reinvent the wheel. hilarious.

 

[username456789]

All this crap is just a way for overpaid administrators with pointless graduate degrees in education to justify their existence. Has nothing to do with improving quality of medical school product.

Of course, same administrators will see the steady rise in Step 1 scores and attribute it to their bull**** rather than widespread use of high-quality learning tools like UWorld and Anki. Repetition and feedback. That's what learning is. And the 5 question quiz that takes 40 minutes to go over in PBL doesn't count.

This is definitely steeped in truth. My medical school absolutely did things right, in my opinion. None of this flipped classroom stuff.

Unfortunately, the medical school at my current residency program is eating up this flipped classroom garbage like it's filet mignon. The administrators are shoving it down everyone's throats. Trash like this exists solely because people with an MSEd degree need to "justify their existence", exactly as you stated. It's a classic case of "it's not broken, so let's fix it."

 

[Guero]

Thanks again for everyone's input and candor.

It seems like a pendulum phase that will eventually fizzle, morph into something entirely different, and/or revert back to more traditional styles with a new name. It's just unfortunate that the LCME appears to advocate for these changes so emphatically that administrations/faculty feel pressured to throw their students into a whirlwind of change during what's already a difficult state of flux and adjustment. I see so many people struggling, terrified they'll fail or at least fare far below their Step goals, while angrily arguing with each other about what's best in terms of teaching and learning. And in the end, I literally feel powerless. All I can do is comfort those in need while pushing aside my own fears and trudging through myself. I can literally only offer feedback and data to administration/faculty. Then it's in their hands, behind closed doors, and ultimately under the influence of the tippity-top executives at the school. It's really frustrating to attend med school in that academic environment, yet seems bureaucratically similar or perhaps even better to what we face in residency and practice.

All that said, nowhere will be perfect. There is no utopia where everyone's happy. But at least we could try to cater to individual students rather than adopt popular/trendy philosophies. I hope someone takes that to heart in our generation and ends up in the executive suite to advocate on behalf of future students.

 

[JP2740]

Does anyone else have no problem with how they learned in medical school? I listened to lecture, yes, I actually listened to my teacher speak. I studied the notes. I honored every class through repetition and understand my teacher and their put together notes. And then I did really well on step 1 because of studying from my teacher's notes for 2 years. Then I did really well on 3rd year shelf exams and answering pimp questions in 3rd year because my knowledge base was so good from years 1 and 2. I don't really see how discussing the material could've been better for anyone other than the bottom of the class who was too lazy to just study.

 

[Guero]

Does anyone else have no problem with how they learned in medical school? I listened to lecture, yes, I actually listened to my teacher speak. I studied the notes. I honored every class through repetition and understand my teacher and their put together notes. And then I did really well on step 1 because of studying from my teacher's notes for 2 years. Then I did really well on 3rd year shelf exams and answering pimp questions in 3rd year because my knowledge base was so good from years 1 and 2. I don't really see how discussing the material could've been better for anyone other than the bottom of the class who was too lazy to just study.

Are you looking for a gold star? Despite your accolades, you're not getting one from a post that comes across as oversimplified, offensive, and insensitive. There's variability in every school and curriculum. Some are very well planned, funded, and executed well regardless of curriculum. Some are done poorly regardless. Likewise, students fall into various categories therein.

Just because someone is struggling doesn't necessarily mean they're "too lazy." Likewise, I'm sure there are those that want nothing more than to pass and match to a non competitive residency that appeals to their individual interests. But to lump all that struggle into a "lazy category" is like smugly lumping all of your "non-compliant" diabetics into a similar category, yet realizing, oops, your patient that just suffered a fatal acidosis wasn't secondary to a lack of effort or concern, but rather was due to the pt struggling to secure the means to access and maintain your prescribed care.

C'mon man.

 

[JP2740]

Are you looking for a gold star? Despite your accolades, you're not getting one from a post that comes across as oversimplified, offensive, and insensitive. There's variability in every school and curriculum. Some are very well planned, funded, and executed well regardless of curriculum. Some are done poorly regardless. Likewise, students fall into various categories therein.

Just because someone is struggling doesn't necessarily mean they're "too lazy." Likewise, I'm sure there are those that want nothing more than to pass and match to a non competitive residency that appeals to their individual interests. But to lump all that struggle into a "lazy category" is like smugly lumping all of your "non-compliant" diabetics into a similar category, yet realizing, oops, your patient that just suffered a fatal acidosis wasn't secondary to a lack of effort or concern, but rather was due to the pt struggling to secure the means to access and maintain your prescribed care.

C'mon man.

Ok I'm sorry I disagreed with you. It's a great method

 

[Guero]

Ok I'm sorry I disagreed with you. It's a great method

I encourage disagreement. I don't encourage insults. I am seriously debating whether you're being serious, though.

Anyway, to clarify for future contributions, neither I nor the intent of this thread is to blame flipped classroom for student performance (despite the majority of complaints thus far). Rather, it was meant to gauge the opinions of those taught in that format. And my latest spiel related to what seems like an overarching phenomenon of subscribing to and encouraging a dominant, popular ethos and the push-back student leaders sometimes face from faculty, administration, and executive administrators.