Florida PsyD!

[laradust]

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Hey

I am a current 5th Year student at Nova Southeastern University. We have a current psychodynamic track lead by Quintar. I like him and i like his psychodynamic courses and i love psychodynamic therapy. You would be paired with him so look him up, I think the program is cool. The only con is that its expensive but if money isnt a problem then go for it.

The fact that you speak spanish will do well for you in South florida and will open you up to more practicum opportunities. And when you go for internship select programs that have a psychodynamic focus. I plan on being a psychodyamic therapists and will go on after i graduate to get more training in it. The field is moving more toward evidence-based but psychodymaic therapy has a strong hold that will never fade away. You create your success!😎😎😎

Thank you! I will look him up!
As a reply to a few here that do not agree with psychoanalysis because you think that there is no evidence to support it, there is a ton of evidence, in Argentina neuropsychologists are trying to "map" the areas of the brain that would be the unconscious. I think that's very interesting. Also, everyone should remember that Freud is the one that started it all. If you want a quick result, quit smoking, or stop a convulsion, maybe psychoanalysis is not the best, but, in my opinion, only psychoanalysis will get rid of the symptom and will interpret and understand the cause. This discussion can go on for ages, and even though it's interesting, it should be done with respect because I don't want you to treat me like a patient, just like any other human being.

 

[neuronic]

@MBellows. I was being a jerk and sarcastic in my response🙁

There are a ton of similarities between psychodynamic and CBT techniques, and again for some populations, there is support. I just hope those invested in this training also contribute to validate its effectiveness. Because in the end, that will help foster our worth, not just to patients, but also the insurance companies who will reimburse treatment. You can always shoot for private practice where you do not take insurance, but it is hard to swing if not in New York or San Fran.

 

[erg923]

As a reply to a few here that do not agree with psychoanalysis because you think that there is no evidence to support it, there is a ton of evidence, in Argentina neuropsychologists are trying to "map" the areas of the brain that would be the unconscious.

So...validating the construct of the unconscious (*something experimental psychopathology and cog neuroscience established long ago) proves the validity of psychoanalysis?! Hows that?

but, in my opinion, only psychoanalysis will get rid of the symptom and will interpret and understand the cause.

Because that corrective emotional experience correlates so well with symptoms remission, right?

I think you would benefit from attending a program with an emphasis on research, because I don't think you got much of that back in Mexico, based on the way you are talking thus far anyway.

 

[MBellows]

I was being a jerk and sarcastic in my response🙁

That's okay. I assume that most people on here either have enough clinical experience not to be bothered by the occasional barbed remark, are generally well fit to applied psychology and thus have a decently thick skin, or may get easily offended and don't need to be in the field anyway.

When it comes down to it, I really try to keep the direct negative comments to more of a minimum and I prefer to apologize if I feel that I've offended someone personally.

There are a ton of similarities between psychodynamic and CBT techniques

This is very true, but where people who are more empirically minded take issue with PD (usually in the form of PA) is where they differ. Specifically certain themes such as the time that it takes versus other therapies, the questionable theoretical constructs, and how it's hard to ethically tease out the difference between waitlist and treatment group (though that's related to the first factor). I'm sure Erg will have more to add.

and again for some populations, there is support.

There's also support for EMDR. A different issue comes with how long the treatment takes and what the relative cost is in relation to other therapies that are also supported.

I just hope those invested in this training also contribute to validate its effectiveness. Because in the end, that will help foster our worth, not just to patients, but also the insurance companies who will reimburse treatment.

I hope so too. Everyone who provides any type of service should be interested in validating what they do and I wouldn't advocate that people not do that. If a sizable enough body of direct (non-meta) evidence comes up to support something, then that's great and I'll re-evaluate my stance.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm also very confused how "mapping" the unconscious parts of the brain would prove psychoanalysis is efficacious, effective, or efficient. I'm not intending this to be rude but you said you don't really enjoy research...do you have enough training at present to understand psychological research? I just ask because your last post reminds me of something we commonly see here (typically from those professing interest in analysis or similar modalities) and seems to reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works and/or what supporting evidence is, at least at the level of an intervention. We can prove its neat and interesting all we want, that's a very different thing from proving its useful for helping people feel better. Many of us would love to debate it but again...you need appropriate training in science to be able to debate effectively. My experience here has been that generally speaking, folks with analytic leanings almost universally have extremely poor training in science. Which is the chicken and which is the egg I couldn't tell you, but I have yet to see someone professing to be an analyst here who actually seemed qualified to debate the literature.

Really, I'm just trying to get across the point that maybe you would greatly benefit from attending a program with at least somewhat rigorous research training rather than seeking one with minimal requirements. From the above, you appear to have some misconceptions about it and/or little beyond a layman's understanding of it. Part of the backlash you are getting is that many of us feel that individuals approaching psychology in this way are not only unethical, but incredibly detrimental to our reputation as a field. We explicitly don't want people who are going to approach it in that way entering the field as they make the rest of us look bad. You are free to do as you see fit, but if you do come to school here you should be prepared for the fact that this is how many psychologists will view you.

 

[psypipe]

That is an unfortunate attitude. Both for the field and for your patients.

"Hey, this is really fun and cool and hip...and even though the field is moving toward intervention with evidence that they work (and work faster), I am just gonna keep doing this... cause it fun, cool, and hip."

Programs that reinforce this attitude are like a disease...

..

 

[cara susanna]

Similar crap was going on in Two and a Half Men. AND they were calling Master's level clinicians psychologists.

Have you seen The New Adventures of Old Christine? One of the characters drops out of med school and they let him become a psychologist because of the coursework he's completed. AND later he ends up dating one of his patients.

I've told people, the best portrayal of therapy I've seen on TV was in an episode of Glee. And that is just sad.

 

[neuronic]

I've told people, the best portrayal of therapy I've seen on TV was in an episode of Glee. And that is just sad.

The movie 50/50 had a promising start, but that went downhill with a dual relationship quite fast. I was even asked by a sister in-law if that is the kind of work I do. I mean to us, we all know better hopefully, but again the public is not as informed.

 

[kcm146]

Gosh, the way the office of the Vice Presidency is portrayed on Veep is downright insulting! And don't get me started on Parks & Rec or the Office...

Come on yall. It's television. It's movies. It's ENTERTAINMENT. Yes I know it gets old having to explain the difference between psychologist and psychiatrist again and again, and no doubt people who watch crap tv shows (two and a half men? really??) are going to be misled. But can we all agree that we're being a little overly sensitive here? After all, another stereotype that is often portrayed is of the psychologist who takes himself far too seriously...

 

[member82953]

no doubt people who watch crap tv shows (two and a half men? really??) are going to be misled. But can we all agree that we're being a little overly sensitive here? After all, another stereotype that is often portrayed is of the psychologist who takes himself far too seriously...

You made me smile. AT WORK.
👍

 

[neuronic]

Come on yall. It's television. It's movies. It's ENTERTAINMENT. Yes I know it gets old having to explain the difference between psychologist and psychiatrist again and again, and no doubt people who watch crap tv shows (two and a half men? really??) are going to be misled. But can we all agree that we're being a little overly sensitive here? After all, another stereotype that is often portrayed is of the psychologist who takes himself far too seriously...

Overly sensitive, likely yes. But it is also not a laughing matter either. As you get further along in your career, you will see more and more barriers to practice. Any ways in which those barriers can be reduced can go a long way (e.g., helping potential patients know what a real psychologist does and why we have worth).

 

[erg923]

The way things should be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-Rcsg1H9A

 

[docjohng]

I'm a bit sad and disappointed in the hostile attitude of some members responding to the OP's question. Instead of actually answering the question constructively or, heck, at least respectfully, some folks seem intent instead to go off-topic and debate the legitimacy of psychoanalysis (which, sorry critics, has a research base; I'm sure you'll disagree with that too, but it's true).

Great to see Quintar still around at Nova and heading up psychoanalysis studies there. As another poster mention, having good Spanish-language skills in S. Florida is a big plus -- it means a clinical job would come more easily upon graduation.

Nova is a good, solid doctoral program with a lot of institutional support. The campus has grown significantly since my time there in the early 90s, but I still know staff and students there. It's a good -- but expensive -- program.

John

 

[futureapppsy2]

See, the expense component isn't just a minor caveat, though--it's a huge amount of debt, especially relative to the income of the profession. Also, I'd find it hard to believe that having such large cohorts doesn't impact training opportunities or mentorship. I know a couple of really good psychologists with degrees from Nova, but I'd bet that there are plenty of students who get lost in the shuffle as well. Personally, I don't know if I could ever recommend a program at would lead to debt above 70k (and even that's high!) or so, even if I thought the training was great. It's just a bad idea.

 

[MBellows]

(which, sorry critics, has a research base; I'm sure you'll disagree with that too, but it's true).

Do you have any good starting places to look when it comes to this claim, or do we just take it at face value?

While you're at it how about Reiki and NLP?

 

[futureapppsy2]

The way things should be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-Rcsg1H9A

I prefer clip-clop therapy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuwm7_59j8I

 

[erg923]

Instead of actually answering the question constructively or, heck, at least respectfully, some folks seem intent instead to go off-topic and debate the legitimacy of psychoanalysis (which, sorry critics, has a research base; I'm sure you'll disagree with that too, but it's true).

I'm not sure how that is off topic. its very on topic, actually.

Tea leaf reading has an evidence base too...

 

[PHD12]

Nova is a good, solid doctoral program with a lot of institutional support. The campus has grown significantly since my time there in the early 90s, but I still know staff and students there. It's a good -- but expensive -- program.

To be fair, you graduated in the 1990's before the internship crisis. The cost of an education for Nova and other similar for profit universities has skyrocketed exponentially above and beyond the rate of inflation. We are talking about 150-200K in loans these days. I don't think you paid anything near this amount (even adjusting for inflation). I don't think you would recommend it if you graduated with 150K in loans and entered the clinical field (It looks like your main job is creating and managing the website and not in clinical work).

 

[PsySeeker]

I'm a bit sad and disappointed in the hostile attitude of some members responding to the OP's question. Instead of actually answering the question constructively or, heck, at least respectfully

I could not agree more...

 

[Ollie123]

Do you have any good starting places to look when it comes to this claim, or do we just take it at face value?

I always ask too. At best I get what I posted about before (referred to the same 1-2 highly flawed review papers, no desire and/or ability to discuss it further). Mostly I get things like this ("Trust me, it works. Now stop being rude by asking.").

 

[LucidMind]

I always ask too. At best I get what I posted about before (referred to the same 1-2 highly flawed review papers, no desire and/or ability to discuss it further). Mostly I get things like this ("Trust me, it works. Now stop being rude by asking.").

I have definitely read about positive results from psychoanalytic therapy in empirical literature. Here is a very quick and lazy pubmed search:

Comparison of cognitive-behaviour therapy with psychoanalytic and psychodynamic therapy for depressed patients - a three-year follow-up study.
Huber D, Zimmermann J, Henrich G, Klug G. PMID: 22987495

Quasi-experimental study on the effectiveness of psychoanalysis, long-term and short-term psychotherapy on psychiatric symptoms, work ability and functional capacity during a 5-year follow-up.
Knekt P, Lindfors O, Laaksonen MA, Renlund C, Haaramo P, Härkänen T, Virtala E; Helsinki Psychotherapy Study Group. PMID: 21316768


The effectiveness of psychoanalytic-interactional psychotherapy in borderline personality disorder.
Leichsenring F, Masuhr O, Jaeger U, Dally A, Streeck U. PMID: 20925484

 

[ela]

I highly doubt these will satisfy you, given the way you've framed the question, but these at least are an interesting place to start;

Abbass AA, Henderson J, Kisely S., Hancock JT. (2006). Short-term psychodynamic psychotherapies for common mental disorders. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. Oct 8;(4):CD004687

Abbass, A., Kisely, S., Kroenke, K. (2009). Short term psychodynamic therapy for somatic disorders. Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics, 78, p. 265-274.

Andersen, S. M., & Baum, A. (1994). Transference in interpersonal relations: inferences and affect based on significant-other representations. J Pers, 62(4), 459-497.

Anderson, E., & Lambert, M. (1995). Short-Term Dynamically Oriented Psychotherapy: A Review and Meta-Analysis. Clinical Psychology Review, 15, 503-514.

Barber, J., et al., (2000). Alliance Predicts Patients' Outcome Beyond In-Treatment Change Symptoms. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 68, 1027-1032.

Bateman,A.W., Fonagy,P. (2009). Randomized controlled trial of outpatient Mentalization-based Treatment versus Structured Clinical Management for borderline personality disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry .

Bateman,A.W., Fonagy,P. (2008). 8-year follow-up of patients treated for borderline personality disorder: Mentalization-based treatment versus treatment as usual. American Journal of Psychiatry 165, 631-638.

Blatt, S. J. (1992). The differential effect of psychotherapy and psychoanalysis with anaclitic and introjective patients: The Menninger Psychotherapy Research Project revisited. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association, 40, 691-724.

Blatt, S. J., & Shahar, G. (2004). Psychoanalysis - with whom, for what, and how? Comparisons with psychotherapy. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association, 52(2), 393-44

Clarkin, J. F., Levy, K. N., Lenzenweger, M. F., & Kernberg, O. F. (2004). The Personality Disorders Institute / Borderline Personality Disorder Research Foundation randomized control trial for borderline personality disorder: Rationale, methods, and patient characteristics. Journal of Personality Disorders. 18 (1): 52-72.

Driessen, E., Cuijpers, P., de Maat, S.C,M., Abbass, A.A., de Jonghe, F. & Dekker, J.J.M.,
(2010). The efficacy of short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy for depression: A meta-analysis. Clinical Psychology Review, 30(1), p. 25-36

Fonagy, P., Leigh, T., Steele, M., Steele, H., Kennedy, R., Mattoon, G., Target, M., & Gerber, A. (1996). The relation of attachment status, psychiatric classification, and response to psychotherapy. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 64, 22-31.

Fonagy, P., Jones, E. E., Kächele, H., Krause, R., Clarkin, J., Perron, R., Gerber, A., & Allison, E. (2001). An open door review of outcome studies in psychoanalysis (Second ed.). London: International Psychoanalytic Association. (download or order via http://eseries.ipa.org.uk/prev/research/R-outcome.htm)

Hilsenroth, M. J. (2007). A programmatic study of short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy: assessment, process, outcome, and training. Psychotherapy Research, 17(1): 31-45

Høglend, P., Amlo, S., Marble, A., Bogwald, K. P., Sorbye, O., Sjaastad, M. C., et al. (2006). Analysis of the patient-therapist relationship in dynamic psychotherapy: an experimental study of transference interpretations. Am J Psychiatry, 163(10), 1739-1746.

Leuzinger-Bohleber, M., Stuhr, U., Ruger, B., Beutel, M. (2003) How to study the quality of psychoanalytic treatments and their long-term effects on patients' well-being: a representative, multi-perspective follow-up study. International Journal of Psychoanalysis 84, 263-290.

Leichsenring, F. (2001) Comparative Effects of Short-Term Psychodynamic Psychotherapy and Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy in Depression: A Meta-analytic Approach. Clinical Psychology Review, 21, 401-419.

Leichsenring, F., Biskup, J., Kreische,R., & Staats, H. (2005) The Gottingen study of psychoanalytic therapy: first results. International Journal of Psychoanalysis 86, 433-455.

Leichsenring, F. & Leibing, E. (2003). The Effectiveness of Psychodynamic Therapy and Cognitive Behavior Therapy in the Treatment of Personality Disorders: A Meta-analysis. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160, 1223-1232.

Leichensenring, F. (2009). Psychodynamic psychotherapy: A review of efficacy and effectiveness studies. In Current Clinical Psychiatry, 2009, Handbook of Evidence Based Psychodynamic Psychotherapy, Part 1, p. 3-27.

Levy, K.N., Wasserman, R.H., Scott, L.N., & Yeomans, F.E. (2009). Empirical evidence for transference-focused psychotherapy and other psychodynamic psychotherapy for borderline personality disorder. In R. Levy & J.S. Ablon (Eds.), Handbook of Evidence-Based Psychodynamic Psychotherapy: Bridging the Gap Between Science and Practice (pp. 93-119). New York: Humana Press.


Luborsky, L., & Crits-Christoph, P. (1998). Understanding Transference: The Core Conflictual Relationship Theme Method (Second ed.). Washington DC: American Psychological Association.

Milrod, B., Leon, A. C., Busch, F., Rudden, M., Schwalberg, M., Clarkin, J., et al. (in press). The efficacy of psychoanalytic psychotherapy for panic disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry.

Sandell, R., Blomberg, J., Lazar, A., Carlsson, J., Broberg, J., & Schubert, J. (2000). Varieties of long-term outcome among patients in psychoanalysis and long-term psychotherapy. International Journal of Psychoanalysis, 81, 921-942.

Shevrin, H., Bond, J. A., Brakel, L. A. W., Hertel, R. K., & Williams, W. J. (1996). Conscious and Unconscious Processes: Psychodynamic, Cognitive, and Neurophysiological Convergences. New York: Guilford Press.

Siefert, Caleb J., Hilsenroth, Mark J., Weinberger, Joel, Blagys, Matthew D., Ackerman, Steven J. (2006) The relationship of patient defensive functioning and alliance with therapist technique during short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy. Clinical Psychology and Psychotherapy. 13, 20–33.

Wallerstein, R.S. (1989) The Psychotherapy Research Project of the Menninger Foundation: an overview. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 57 (2), 195-205.



i know i know. beginnings.

 

[MBellows]

I highly doubt these will satisfy you, given the way you've framed the question, but these at least are an interesting place to start;

I wouldn't have asked and wouldn't be a good scientist if I wasn't willing to accept evidence when it's provided.

I'll bypass the Short-Term Psychodynamics for now. Not because I'm dismissive or anything, but I plan on getting Core Competencies in Brief Dynamic Psychotherapy: Becoming a Highly Effective and Competent Brief Dynamic Psychotherapist​ (Core Competencies in Psychotherapy Series) over the holidays to read and I'll look at it then. Also, from my understanding Brief Dynamic Psychotherapy =/= Psychoanalysis. All the same, thank you again for those.

Clarkin, J. F., Levy, K. N., Lenzenweger, M. F., & Kernberg, O. F. (2004). The Personality Disorders Institute / Borderline Personality Disorder Research Foundation randomized control trial for borderline personality disorder: Rationale, methods, and patient characteristics. Journal of Personality Disorders. 18 (1): 52-72.

As much as my previous statements about PA may make you think otherwise, I'm always happy to read Kernberg. He has a unique way of conceptualizing things and putting them into words that I connect with.

Fonagy, P., Jones, E. E., Kächele, H., Krause, R., Clarkin, J., Perron, R., Gerber, A., & Allison, E. (2001). An open door review of outcome studies in psychoanalysis (Second ed.). London: International Psychoanalytic Association. (download or order via http://eseries.ipa.org.uk/prev/research/R-outcome.htm)

It puts me on edge when I read about a type of therapy from a journal devoted to that therapy. I know the rationale behind it, but I do feel much more comfortable with more mainstream journals (some of which you provided and I'm excited to read).

Leichsenring, F. & Leibing, E. (2003). The Effectiveness of Psychodynamic Therapy and Cognitive Behavior Therapy in the Treatment of Personality Disorders: A Meta-analysis. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160, 1223-1232.

I was excited about this until I saw Meta-analysis, but I'll still add it to the reading list.

Again, thanks. Even if you did take away my next two Saturdays off.

 

[Ollie123]

Finally! We're partway there...the question now becomes...can we actually discuss the merits of these and what its really showing...or is this just a "See it works, leave me alone" post? Evidence-based practice does not just mean "Someone has researched it at some point so its okay" its about having some basis for believing it will lead to substantial improvement in a given context and is the most effective/most likely to work/most efficient (or some combination thereof) of the options available.

As has already been said psychodynamic treatment is not the same as traditional psychoanalysis, which some of those articles reference. I take much less issue with contemporary time-limited dynamic treatments where there has been a bigger push to prove their worth. That said, there were quite a few references to analytic treatments as well. At least Leichsenring has been somewhat debunked since part of their findings were driven by errors in calculating effect sizes (Bhar et al., 2010 explains it further). <edit - just realized this was of a different meta by the same group and not the one that was cited - I'll take a look at these later>

If folks are actually willing to have a genuine discussion about this, perhaps we should split the thread out. I've really been trying for a years to get the board to talk about things like this with little success. One of my concerns is the limited number of populations one can treat and the fact that analysts aren't exactly turning away people with OCD or other issues for which there is no evidence. I'll go through these in more detail later and post some critiques.

 

[ela]

Hey MBellows,

The Binder book on Core-Competencies in Brief Dynamic Psychotherapy is a clear, concise read. I've found it really helpful in conceptualizing and practicing in short term settings (ie most settings while a prac student 🙂 )

I hear your concerns about articles from journals devoted to a particular "brand". However, the Fonagy team is doing some interesting work on developing manualized psychodynamic approaches that they are dedicated to investigating efficacy and outcome for. They are doing this in the context of the National Health Service in G.B.

http://www.redit.org.uk/
http://www.d-i-t.org/

To me, its important to keep in mind client-treatment match. Not every approach is going to work for every patient. Yes, psychoanalysis has, historically, largely avoided empirically validating the approach for a variety of reasons. I do think (hope) that is changing.


To Ollie: yea given how INSANELY far we have deviated from the OP's questions, breaking out a separate thread is probably a good call.

 

[MBellows]

To Ollie: yea given how INSANELY far we have deviated from the OP's questions, breaking out a separate thread is probably a good call.

Agreed.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=13941421#post13941421

 

[docjohng]

I think a person would be a bit insane to take out $150k - $200k loans for anything that wasn't an MD, MBA or law degree, no matter what the name or type of psychology doctoral program. Having said that, I had classmates who did indeed take out 6 digits in loans, and they had zero plan on how they were going to repay them.

I did take out a hefty chunk of loan money and am still repaying it. But I took out only what I could afford, I had a paying job throughout grad school (since nearly Day 1), and I looked for any type of independent scholarship I could find (there are dozens to choose from) for any bit of additional funds.

Had I wished the taxpayers could've picked up my tuition bill as they do at many traditional universities? Sure, but that's also a choice I made (and my eyes were wide open while making it).

You speak wisely pointing out the cost of tuition at a place like Nova, and in fact, many private universities today.

John

 

[JeyRo]

I think a person would be a bit insane to take out $150k - $200k loans for anything that wasn't an MD, MBA or law degree, no matter what the name or type of psychology doctoral program.

Total sidenote - since I have some lawyers in my family I feel somewhat qualified to say that unless you've attained entry to an absolutely top-tier law school (Harvard, Yale, etc.), it's equally insane to shell out 150K for a law degree as well. The grass is definitely not greener on the other side in this case, from what I understand.

 

[MBellows]

Total sidenote - since I have some lawyers in my family I feel somewhat qualified to say that unless you've attained entry to an absolutely top-tier law school (Harvard, Yale, etc.), it's equally insane to shell out 150K for a law degree as well. The grass is definitely not greener on the other side in this case, from what I understand.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmauree...is-the-worst-career-decision-youll-ever-make/

 

[JeyRo]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmauree...is-the-worst-career-decision-youll-ever-make/

Yup.

Also worth mentioning..... the most common graduate degree in the country, AFAIK, is the MBA. So I'd question that one as well.

The MD is the only one that still might be a good investment, and that's only because the AMA has done a stellar job of restricting the supply of medical school training slots.

 

[PHD12]

Yup.

Also worth mentioning..... the most common graduate degree in the country, AFAIK, is the MBA. So I'd question that one as well.

The MD is the only one that still might be a good investment, and that's only because the AMA has done a stellar job of restricting the supply of medical school training slots.

I agree with you in terms of taking out loans for JD or MBA unless it's a good school. However, It's important to note that both JD and MBA's command significantly higher salaries than psychologists (median is about 110-120K last time I checked on bls.gov) and both degrees require 1/3 to 1/2 the time commitment. Heck there are plenty of 1 year MBA programs out there (see northwestern).

Compare this to 68K for psychologists on bls. gov and 80-87K according to the APA Salary Survey of doctoral level clinical and counseling psychologists. APA salary survey is a higher median, but note that the # of years of experience is 22 years (so this is not mid-career). Unfunded PsyD or PhD is the worst investment out there. Find me another professional degree that requires 7-8 years of training, costs 150-200K, and has a similar median salary?

 

[JeyRo]

I agree with you in terms of taking out loans for JD or MBA unless it's a good school. However, It's important to note that both JD and MBA's command significantly higher salaries than psychologists (median is about 110-120K last time I checked on bls.gov) and both degrees require 1/3 to 1/2 the time commitment. Heck there are plenty of 1 year MBA programs out there (see northwestern).

Compare this to 68K for psychologists on bls. gov and 80-87K according to the APA Salary Survey of doctoral level clinical and counseling psychologists. APA salary survey is a higher median, but note that the # of years of experience is 22 years (so this is not mid-career). Unfunded PsyD or PhD is the worst investment out there. Find me another professional degree that requires 7-8 years of training, costs 150-200K, and has a similar median salary?

I can't speak to your point about MBAs, but that average income figure you're quoting for attorneys (which I'm well aware of) doesn't take into account average hours worked for associate attorneys. Attorneys overwhelmingly work on the billable hour system - and it's not uncommon for early-career associate attorneys to clock in 60+ hours per week on a regular basis. That means no vacations, no weekends off, nothing. There's a reason why the legal profession is considered the unhappiest profession in the US. We probably agree that the rules may be different for, say, the 1% of law school applicants who make it into Harvard or Yale Law.....

Anyways, sure, attorneys on average may make 100K or more, possibly right out of the gate, but they have to sacrifice their families, social life, stomach lining, livers, etc..... not worth it. Even with my debt, I made a better choice. This isn't saying I wouldn't do things differently if I had to do it over again, but I certainly wouldn't do law school, based on what I know about it. Seriously.

 

[CriminalPsych]

I can't speak to your point about MBAs, but that average income figure you're quoting for attorneys (which I'm well aware of) doesn't take into account average hours worked for associate attorneys. Attorneys overwhelmingly work on the billable hour system - and it's not uncommon for early-career associate attorneys to clock in 60+ hours per week on a regular basis. That means no vacations, no weekends off, nothing. There's a reason why the legal profession is considered the unhappiest profession in the US. We probably agree that the rules may be different for, say, the 1% of law school applicants who make it into Harvard or Yale Law.....

Anyways, sure, attorneys on average may make 100K or more, possibly right out of the gate, but they have to sacrifice their families, social life, stomach lining, livers, etc..... not worth it. Even with my debt, I made a better choice. This isn't saying I wouldn't do things differently if I had to do it over again, but I certainly wouldn't do law school, based on what I know about it. Seriously.

And why couldn't psychologists a year or two out of the gate do the same to get toward that 6 figure mark? Could the differences in median salary reflect a work ethic difference, as it is not uncommon to see psychologists working 30-40 hour weeks?

 

[PHD12]

And why couldn't psychologists a year or two out of the gate do the same to get toward that 6 figure mark? Could the differences in median salary reflect a work ethic difference, as it is not uncommon to see psychologists working 30-40 hour weeks?

Where do psychologists work 30-40 hours per week (outside of VA hospitals maybe?). Many psychologists have two jobs to make enough money so they are working many hours (hospital + PP on the side). People in PP routinely put in 60 hours (and are on call) and they never really start at 6 figures. I don't think work ethic is at issue.

 

[JeyRo]

And why couldn't psychologists a year or two out of the gate do the same to get toward that 6 figure mark? Could the differences in median salary reflect a work ethic difference, as it is not uncommon to see psychologists working 30-40 hour weeks?

That's a great question - I'd say that's a question for a labor economist to answer. The little I know tells me that it's because overwhelmingly, lawyers work in the billable hour system. Psychologists, on the other hand, get paid in a very diverse bunch of ways (some do what resembles the billable hour system when they do PP, but plenty of others are salaried, others work off of grants, etc), and aren't required to work insane hours as a condition of being employed.

 

[JeyRo]

Where do psychologists work 30-40 hours per week (outside of VA hospitals maybe?). Many psychologists have two jobs to make enough money so they are working many hours (hospital + PP on the side). People in PP routinely put in 60 hours (and are on call) and they never really start at 6 figures. I don't think work ethic is at issue.

I think work *culture* may be part of the answer here. If you're a starting associate at a big-city law firm, you're required to do a huge number of hours, basically, as a condition of staying employed with that firm.... in order to "pull your weight." Psychologists, on the other hand, are probably rarely required to sweat blood to make a (say) 45 hour per week billable requirement (which, in law firms, involves working 60 because of all of the writeoffs).... the culture is just drastically different. It would be malpractice for the head of a psychologist group practice to work their associates that way. For law firm partners, it's how they do business.

 

[PHD12]

I completely agree though that the work culture is different. However, the lawyers who are putting in 60 hours in large law friends (the ones I'm friends with at least) are starting around 165K and have informed me that this is a very typical starting salary (without bonus) in a major metropolitan area. The ones I know who are working at smaller firms/public service are starting with lower salaries, but they typically are working more like 40 hours. Not all lawyers are working long hours and the ones who are working long hours at big law firms are getting the compensation.

 

[edieb]

I agree with you in terms of taking out loans for JD or MBA unless it's a good school. However, It's important to note that both JD and MBA's command significantly higher salaries than psychologists (median is about 110-120K last time I checked on bls.gov) and both degrees require 1/3 to 1/2 the time commitment. Heck there are plenty of 1 year MBA programs out there (see northwestern).

Compare this to 68K for psychologists on bls. gov and 80-87K according to the APA Salary Survey of doctoral level clinical and counseling psychologists. APA salary survey is a higher median, but note that the # of years of experience is 22 years (so this is not mid-career). Unfunded PsyD or PhD is the worst investment out there. Find me another professional degree that requires 7-8 years of training, costs 150-200K, and has a similar median salary?

I think the "right amount" of loan money to take out is contingent on many variables; however. I see a lot of people on here say you shouldnt take out X amount in loans without considering these

For example,

1 - Do you plan on not having children? A single person with no children can live very well on $85K or so in a moderate cost area, even with $200K in loans
2 - What specialty do you plan on working in? I had $55K in student loans but, since I have a very high paying niche, was able to pay 90 percent of that off in less than a year.
3 - Where do you want to live? A high or low cost of living are

But overall, clinical psychology and clinical neuropsychology are very poor investments of both time and money. Whenever I encounter a student who wants to enter the field, I direct them to this board and the psychiatry boards. While the psychiatrists are talking about whether they should charge $150 or $200 an hour (literally), people on this board are salivating for $90K in a high cost of living area after 22 years in the field and 12 + years of school!

 

[JeyRo]

I completely agree though that the work culture is different. However, the lawyers who are putting in 60 hours in large law friends (the ones I'm friends with at least) are starting around 165K and have informed me that this is a very typical starting salary (without bonus) in a major metropolitan area.

... and I'll bet if they work less than that eventually they'd get shown the door by their partners. Gilded cage, no thanks.

The ones I know who are working at smaller firms/public service are starting with lower salaries, but they typically are working more like 40 hours.

Right, and those lawyers are probably the better comparison with psychologists (particularly the ones from unfunded programs). Their hours are better, the lifestyle is therefore a bit better, but they're still sporting 100K+ plus student debt, and, well, they're lawyers. We've got a better deal.

Not all lawyers are working long hours and the ones who are working long hours at big law firms are getting the compensation.

We can trade anecdotes all we want (sounds like we both have plenty). I agree - if lifestyle, work culture, and, well, the actually *work* involved isn't that important to you, and you just want to make money, being a lawyer (as long as you went to a top-tier law school - not an easy task necessarily) is the way to go for you. Being a psychologist affords you something else.

 

[PHD12]

.

Right, and those lawyers are probably the better comparison with psychologists (particularly the ones from unfunded programs). Their hours are better, the lifestyle is therefore a bit better, but they're still sporting 100K+ plus student debt, and, well, they're lawyers. We've got a better deal.
.

*You* have a better deal as a va psychologist (this is one of the highest paying and comfortable positions for a psychologist). What about more typical outcomes for graduates of unfunded PhD/PsyD programs. They are more likely to end up in underfunded and incredibly stressful positions, such as community mental health, state inpatient units, state/county forensic facilities, and college counseling centers (although college counseling is a better gig). Some of these positions max out around 65K and require long hours (including being on call).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

*You* have a better deal as a va psychologist (this is one of the highest paying and comfortable positions for a psychologist). What about more typical outcomes for graduates of unfunded PhD/PsyD programs. They are more likely to end up in underfunded and incredibly stressful positions, such as community mental health, state inpatient units, state/county forensic facilities, and college counseling centers (although college counseling is a better gig). Some of these positions max out around 65K and require long hours (including being on call).

+1. The "average" psychologist will need to graduate with little to no debt to be able to live a comfortable lifestyle w/o being reliant on a 2nd income or working more hours to try and earn more.

 

[JeyRo]

+1. The "average" psychologist will need to graduate with little to no debt to be able to live a comfortable lifestyle w/o being reliant on a 2nd income or working more hours to try and earn more.

We still need my wife to work part time to be able to get by. Hello debt.

Look, I think this boils down to job satisfaction. I cited a pretty reliable source that suggests that associate attorneys, by and large, are pretty unhappy with their jobs, regardless as to how much money you can generate by sweating blood for your partners via 60+ hour workweeks. Absolutely psychologists can work in stressful, unrewarding jobs. I did a months worth of prison consulting about seven years ago and I found it to be utter hell (although I know some psychologists like that kind of work) - it would be terrible to have no other recourse but that kind of work.

However, I have this general sense that overall, maybe even for grads of unfunded programs, the average job satisfaction tends to be better for psychologists than for attorneys.

 

[edieb]

We still need my wife to work part time to be able to get by. Hello debt.

Look, I think this boils down to job satisfaction. I cited a pretty reliable source that suggests that associate attorneys, by and large, are pretty unhappy with their jobs, regardless as to how much money you can generate by sweating blood for your partners via 60+ hour workweeks. Absolutely psychologists can work in stressful, unrewarding jobs. I did a months worth of prison consulting about seven years ago and I found it to be utter hell (although I know some psychologists like that kind of work) - it would be terrible to have no other recourse but that kind of work.

However, I have this general sense that overall, maybe even for grads of unfunded programs, the average job satisfaction tends to be better for psychologists than for attorneys.

I guess I don't follow your logic. If you do Income Based Repayment, the amount you pay back in student loans is capped so you can still live comfortably based on your circumstances.... How does your wife need to work P-T if you earn 6 figures?

 

[PHD12]

I guess I don't follow your logic. If you do Income Based Repayment, the amount you pay back in student loans is capped so you can still live comfortably based on your circumstances.... How does your wife need to work P-T if you earn 6 figures?

Welcome to California. If you live anywhere near the bay area/northern california, a 150-200K salary is not considered high for other professions. This is a location where 6 figure income folks are shut out of the housing market by people willing to buy condos/apts with 100% cash. One of my physician colleagues cannot afford a condo out here (she is single, but earning 180K)

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_22930687/bay-areas-average-homebuyers-shut-out-by-cash

 

[JeyRo]

Welcome to California. If you live anywhere near the bay area/northern california, a 150-200K salary is not considered high for other professions. This is a location where 6 figure income folks are shut out of the housing market by people willing to buy condos/apts with 100% cash. One of my physician colleagues cannot afford a condo out here (she is single, but earning 180K)

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_22930687/bay-areas-average-homebuyers-shut-out-by-cash

Spot on. I think the NYC area is probably the only other part of the country that approaches how bad the cost of living is here.

Also, I don't do income based repayment - if I did it, my monthly payments would nearly triple. That's partially due to fortunate circumstances (I consolidated at a time where you could get an absurdly low rate - 1.625% in my case). Might also reflect that IBR isn't the panacea people seem to think it is (not saying that about either of you).