Flu shots anyone?

[orthomyxo]

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This is totally irrelevant to pre-med, but is so strange that I had to post it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM&feature=topvideos

EDIT: I am not suggesting that you don't get a flu shot because of this 1/1,000,000 complication. Like I said, I just thought it was strange. Take it for nothing more than that.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

Holy ****, I'm supposed to get a flu shot tomorrow. D=

 

[bannie22]

seen this before very disturbing

 

[Analog]

Just gonna leave this here-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP0QYLMUZb4

they're using her as an example for neurology residents, to illustrate psychogenic illness

 

[schrizto]

I just watched it, very disturbing and sad. Is her getting this from a flu shot based on speculation or have doctors confirmed that she definitely got this from the shot?

 

[bannie22]

disappointed with that woman... must have never done research in her life... just because its not in the LITERATURE doesnt mean it doesnt exist. its not even a valid point to raise... disappointed.

 

[schrizto]

.

 

[7starmantis]

Wow, hadn't seen that video. Thats really sad.

I never get seasonal flu shots and wont get H1N1, but I'm a freak. I did a paper and a lot of research on the connection between vaccinations like this and gillian beret. Needless to say I haven't had one since! 🙂

On another note, the response in the second video is probably part of the reason people dont really trust the medical profession like they could. Again, sad.

 

[7starmantis]

I doubt a state can FORCE you to get a flu shot.

 

[chman]

I'm sorry, but your point? People get bad reactions to all kinds of medications. The flue shot is no more of a risk than taking a couple advil. That is simply the nature of medication, some people will be allergic.

 

[nlax30]

Wow, hadn't seen that video. Thats really sad.

I never get seasonal flu shots and wont get H1N1, but I'm a freak. I did a paper and a lot of research on the connection between vaccinations like this and gillian beret. Needless to say I haven't had one since! 🙂

So even after your research you still avoid the shot over an incredibly small risk?

 

[vickpick]

some people they hadnt seen the video yet.. guyz.. watch TV every ones in a while and visit CNN as opposed to SDN every once in a while..

I must say its sad.. but I didnt get a flu-shot this year.. and now im getting sore throat and cough... also muscle weakness... guess what I might have the flu... i should've vaccinated...

flu shots are doing more good than bad probably.. although i should say that everytime I've gotten vaccinated I get the flu in a week... this time i didn't and I still got cold and stuff (not as severe as the flu)

 

[StormingWynn]

Just gonna leave this here-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP0QYLMUZb4

they're using her as an example for neurology residents, to illustrate psychogenic illness

Well I won't be applying to the University of Maryland. Shows how bright their staff is. That lady is seriously stupid. "Oh just because it's not in the books, she's crazy and faking it." Wow how did she become a doctor? How do you think diseases/disorders are found? It starts with one case!

 

[Depakote]

Wow, hadn't seen that video. Thats really sad.

I never get seasonal flu shots and wont get H1N1, but I'm a freak. I did a paper and a lot of research on the connection between vaccinations like this and gillian beret. Needless to say I haven't had one since! 🙂

On another note, the response in the second video is probably part of the reason people dont really trust the medical profession like they could. Again, sad.

So, if you got H1N1 or the seasonal flu, would you let them give you Tamiflu?

It's got side effects too... Sure, most of them are mild like the flu shot. But you could get Stevens-Johnson syndrome and that can kill you.

 

[foster033]

Well I won't be applying to the University of Maryland. Shows how bright their staff is. That lady is seriously stupid. "Oh just because it's not in the books, she's crazy and faking it." Wow how did she become a doctor? How do you think diseases/disorders are found? It starts with one case!

You sound like the stupid one...you wouldn't apply to a school because you happen to disagree with a trained doctors diagnosis? and you have what training?? ever heard of conversion disorder? doesn't mean she's crazy, and I'm pretty sure the dr. explicitly explained this.

I have been unable to find any information where this women actually went to see a dr. or a dr going on air in support of her story that this was caused by a flu vaccine and not just a coincidence ...if you've found this let me know...

the original story was on inside edition, so really serious journalism there....

 

[TMP-SMX]

You have the same risks of neurological side effects from the actual flu infection. For example, with Guillain-Barré it is a well known possibility after flu but it is actually more commonly due to EBV or Campylobacter infection. In fact, many studies point to a protective effect against GBS with the influenza vaccine.

 

[orthomyxo]

I just watched it, very disturbing and sad. Is her getting this from a flu shot based on speculation or have doctors confirmed that she definitely got this from the shot?

Well in the video it says that she had gotten a flu shot ten days prior to her showing symptoms.

 

[Depakote]

Well in the video it says that she had gotten a flu shot ten days prior to her showing symptoms.

Ice-cream sales and street crime share identical temporal peaks. Ice Cream causes street crime.

 

[Duluth]

Health care providers of any type who do not get immunized are killing patients.

36,000 people die in the US each year from seasonal influenza. Please get your shots, cripes.

 

[bannie22]

You sound like the stupid one...you wouldn't apply to a school because you happen to disagree with a trained doctors diagnosis? and you have what training?? ever heard of conversion disorder? doesn't mean she's crazy, and I'm pretty sure the dr. explicitly explained this.

I have been unable to find any information where this women actually went to see a dr. or a dr going on air in support of her story that this was caused by a flu vaccine and not just a coincidence ...if you've found this let me know...

the original story was on inside edition, so really serious journalism there....

u do not understand his point.

the point is that the doctor at university of maryland stated CLEARLY that because its not in the literature, it cannot possibly be true.

thank you. good bye.👎

 

[schrizto]

Well in the video it says that she had gotten a flu shot ten days prior to her showing symptoms.

Correlation =/= causation. It's jumping to conclusions if that is the only connection they have.

 

[StormingWynn]

u do not understand his point.

the point is that the doctor at university of maryland stated CLEARLY that because its not in the literature, it cannot possibly be true.

thank you. good bye.👎

This, thanks bannie22. Yes. I never said it couldn't be other disorders. I simply said that the "doctor" was rejecting a diagnosis solely based on the lack of literature evidence.

 

[foster033]

u do not understand his point.

the point is that the doctor at university of maryland stated CLEARLY that because its not in the literature, it cannot possibly be true.

thank you. good bye.👎

I don't understand his point because it's a stupid one and not supported by what is shown in the video....

never does the doctor say that it can not be true because it's not in the literature....she mentions that fact that this has never been reported in the literature because the seasonal flu vaccine has been around since the 1940s and any complications arising from it would more likely than not have been reported by now...
the fact that it has not been reported coupled with the presentation of this girls symptoms points not to the flu vaccine but rather to a psychogenic cause.

 

[foster033]

This, thanks bannie22. Yes. I never said it couldn't be other disorders. I simply said that the "doctor" was rejecting a diagnosis solely based on the lack of literature evidence.

the DOCTOR is rejecting the diagnoses because it doesn't fit with the evidence... but I'm sure you know better....when did you get your medical degree?

 

[StormingWynn]

I don't understand his point because it's a stupid one and not supported by what is shown in the video....

never does the doctor say that it can not be true because it's not in the literature....she mentions that fact that this has never been reported in the literature because the seasonal flu vaccine has been around since the 1940s and any complications arising from it would more likely than not have been reported by now...
the fact that it has not been reported coupled with the presentation of this girls symptoms points not to the flu vaccine but rather to a psychogenic cause.

Okay, so just because it hasn't another case like this hasn't been reported doctors must completely rule out the possibility that the flu shot caused it? That's how people die buddy. The reason other doctors pointed the gun at the flu shot because dystonia has been shown to arise as a side effect of medical treatments.

 

[StormingWynn]

the DOCTOR is rejecting the diagnoses because it doesn't fit with the evidence... but I'm sure you know better....when did you get your medical degree?

You don't get it do you? This girl went to a HOSPITAL and was diagnosed with this disease. The doctor you saw in the video is making a diagnosis over a video. No who's diagnosis would you believe? A diagnosis made by a real life doctor who you talked and saw you or a doctor who's making a diagnosis over a video? Personally I'd go for the former. But that's just me.

 

[foster033]

Okay, so just because it hasn't another case like this hasn't been reported doctors must completely rule out the possibility that the flu shot caused it? That's how people die buddy. The reason other doctors pointed the gun at the flu shot because dystonia has been shown to arise as a side effect of medical treatments.

where did she completely rule out this was caused by the flu shot...oh yeah, she didn't...she stated that it wasn't supported by any published literature and people should not jump to conclusions because more likely than not the flu shot is not the culprit here. People die when they think they know better than the professionals who are actually trained.

You don't get it do you? This girl went to a HOSPITAL and was diagnosed with this disease. The doctor you saw in the video is making a diagnosis over a video. No who's diagnosis would you believe? A diagnosis made by a real life doctor who you talked and saw you or a doctor who's making a diagnosis over a video? Personally I'd go for the former. But that's just me.

No, you don't get it...you can't just go around saying one thing is the cause of another without any evidence...that's as ridiculous as thinking this was caused by a full moon....

I have no idea if this girl actually went to a hospital or not...she was on inside edition with no doctor or medical evidence to back up what she was saying!! So yes, I believe the word of this doctor over the word of this girl

 

[kami333]

You don't get it do you? This girl went to a HOSPITAL and was diagnosed with this disease. The doctor you saw in the video is making a diagnosis over a video. No who's diagnosis would you believe? A diagnosis made by a real life doctor who you talked and saw you or a doctor who's making a diagnosis over a video? Personally I'd go for the former. But that's just me.

She was diagnosed with the disease, but not the cause. The only way they could have diagnosed the cause is if there was published literature, which there isn't any so it's all just conjecture.

 

[StormingWynn]

where did she completely rule out this was caused by the flu shot...oh yeah, she didn't...she stated that it wasn't supported by any published literature and people should not jump to conclusions because more likely than not the flu shot is not the culprit here. People die when they think they know better than the professionals who are actually trained.



No, you don't get it...you can't just go around saying one thing is the cause of another without any evidence...that's as ridiculous as thinking this was caused by a full moon....

I have no idea if this girl actually went to a hospital or not...she was on inside edition with no doctor or medical evidence to back up what she was saying!! So yes, I believe the word of this doctor over the word of this girl

1. What have I been saying? The doctor is jumping to conclusions saying that she has psychogenic disorder because the claims she is making are not backed up with literature proof. Think back, how many plagues have been dismissed as being caused by other means when in reality it was caused by something totally new? The girl should be looked at more thoroughly and should not be diagnosed with something no side has definitive proof off.

2. Isn't that what the doctor is doing? She making a judgment without any proof what so ever.

 

[schrizto]

I have no idea if this girl actually went to a hospital or not...she was on inside edition with no doctor or medical evidence to back up what she was saying!! So yes, I believe the word of this doctor over the word of this girl

I agree with this. She probably did seek medical care but we are hearing what doctors who have examined her have said after it has gone through several people. We're getting information that has gone from the doctor to the patient, then to a journalist. The news doesn't really care that it's creating public hysteria, in fact, it wants to.

 

[StormingWynn]

She was diagnosed with the disease, but not the cause. The only way they could have diagnosed the cause is if there was published literature, which there isn't any so it's all just conjecture.

I think the video said the doctors diagnosed her with dystonia and the cause was the flu shot which was administered 10 days earlier. The diagnosis fits. Dystonia is sometimes caused by medical treatments, drugs, etc. Backed by medical literature. That's why they said it was likely to be the flu shot.

 

[redsquareblack]

u do not understand his point.

the point is that the doctor at university of maryland stated CLEARLY that because its not in the literature, it cannot possibly be true.

thank you. good bye.👎

Um... I dispute the veracity of your post.

She never said that "because it's not in the literature, it cannot possibly be true." But literature does exist for a reason, and the existence of a given set of sequelae in the literature following administration of a medication certainly increases the likelihood of a correlation. The lack of literature for dystonia following flu vaccine, to me, indicates that the claim the two are correlated in this case is deserving of a bit more investigation, no?

 

[StormingWynn]

Um... I dispute the veracity of your post.

She never said that "because it's not in the literature, it cannot possibly be true." But literature does exist for a reason, and the existence of a given set of sequelae in the literature following administration of a medication certainly increases the likelihood of a correlation. The lack of literature for dystonia following flu vaccine, to me, indicates that the claim the two are correlated in this case is deserving of a bit more investigation, no?

Yes it does, but you can't dismiss the possibility of it being cause by a flu shot and that's what we are arguing.

 

[redsquareblack]

I think the video said the doctors diagnosed her with dystonia and the cause was the flu shot which was administered 10 days earlier. The diagnosis fits. Dystonia is sometimes caused by medical treatments, drugs, etc. Backed by medical literature. That's why they said it was likely to be the flu shot.

What kind of drugs, Wynn? What kind?

 

[foster033]

1. What have I been saying? The doctor is jumping to conclusions saying that she has psychogenic disorder because the claims she is making are not backed up with literature proof. Think back, how many plagues have been dismissed as being caused by other means when in reality it was caused by something totally new? The girl should be looked at more thoroughly and should not be diagnosed with something no side has definitive proof off.
2. Isn't that what the doctor is doing? She making a judgment without any proof what so ever.

the doctor is not jumping to any conclusions...she saying that it's more likely this is not caused by the flu vaccine...in her experience as a DOCTOR and the presentation of this girls symptoms it fits better with something like conversion disorder, which I linked to earlier. this is a documented disorder that does have support in the literature.

going out and publicly declaring this was caused by the flu vaccine without any proof is irresponsible because the average person (as declared by this thread) cannot tell the difference between an educated theory and a crackpot one.

 

[StormingWynn]

What kind of drugs, Wynn? What kind?

A variety, just look up the causes of the dystonia. It wont be hard to find. I think they include vaccines, which the flu is one.

 

[kami333]

I think the video said the doctors diagnosed her with dystonia and the cause was the flu shot which was administered 10 days earlier. The diagnosis fits. Dystonia is sometimes caused by medical treatments, drugs, etc. Backed by medical literature. That's why they said it was likely to be the flu shot.

And why won't these doctors come out and publicly announce that it was the flu shot? Or are they unwilling to risk their professional reputation on something that has so far never been published?

 

[StormingWynn]

the doctor is not jumping to any conclusions...she saying that it's more likely this is not caused by the flu vaccine...in her experience as a DOCTOR and the presentation of this girls symptoms it fits better with something like conversion disorder, which I linked to earlier. this is a documented disorder that does have support in the literature.

going out and publicly declaring this was caused by the flu vaccine without any proof is irresponsible because the average person (as declared by this thread) cannot tell the difference between an educated theory and a crackpot one.

Ok, so people should not be informed of the possibility of a side effect? That's like administering a drug and leaving the possibility of death out. But what ever. No one is going to win because she's half right and half wrong.

 

[kami333]

A variety, just look up the causes of the dystonia. It wont be hard to find. I think they include vaccines, which the flu is one.

She's gotten the seasonal flu shot in previous years and suffered no ill effects, and from what I understand the formulation of the seasonal flu shot is basically identical year to year.

 

[redsquareblack]

A variety, just look up the causes of the dystonia. It wont be hard to find. I think they include vaccines, which the flu is one.

Your sources most likely differ from mine, as I found no reputable site (yet) that lists vaccines as a cause of dystonia.

 

[7starmantis]

So, if you got H1N1 or the seasonal flu, would you let them give you Tamiflu?

It's got side effects too... Sure, most of them are mild like the flu shot. But you could get Stevens-Johnson syndrome and that can kill you.

lol You guys are seriously intense. Chillax. Your going to have a stroke before your 30. I was actually just joking for the most part hence the little smiley face.

But since you brought it up, I'm sure as a med student you understand the idea of acceptable risk? If you have H1N1 its acceptable to risk the side effects of a drug. If you dont....

I dont get seasonal flu shots because I haven't had the flu in nearly 8 years and I'm young (relatively) and healthy, I usually just run a sprint triathlon if I think I'm getting sick and that clears it up. I figure since the government can't successfully manage the creation and distribution of seasonal flu vaccines to the elderly in Florida I would let mine be used by someone who needs it. 🙄

 

[foster033]

Ok, so people should not be informed of the possibility of a side effect? That's like administering a drug and leaving the possibility of death out. But what ever. No one is going to win because she's half right and half wrong.

People should not be informed of something if there is no evidence to support it...it's irresponsible and leads to people making rash decisions that have no basis in reality...

the seasonal flu vaccine has been around for almost 70 years and this has never been seen as a side effect...you're far more likely to get in a fatal car accident on the way to get your flu shot than to have any serious side effects

 

[bannie22]

the doctor is not jumping to any conclusions...she saying that it's more likely this is not caused by the flu vaccine...in her experience as a DOCTOR and the presentation of this girls symptoms it fits better with something like conversion disorder, which I linked to earlier. this is a documented disorder that does have support in the literature.

going out and publicly declaring this was caused by the flu vaccine without any proof is irresponsible because the average person (as declared by this thread) cannot tell the difference between an educated theory and a crackpot one.

listen again 👎

i researched the literature EXTENSIVELY and i could NOT find or anyone had ever reported this type of distonic reaction that they were talking about, AND CONSEQUENTLY the university of maryland SOM, head of neurology department had called me because a couple of movement disorder experts have been looking at the video and they all really feel this is psychogenic.

its not caused from the flu, its not caused from the vaccine....

how did they come to this conclusion? because of her EXTENSIVE RESEARCH.

she has no right to disregard the patient's opinion, the patient who she has never SEEN, from a pile of articles and reports.

how was pencillin discovered?

and i have no idea why she constantly smiles when she talks about head of neurology at maryland and conferred with doctors at hopkins...

and at 3:05, she goes on to say. YOU CANT FIND IN THE LITERATURE. stop with the literature. if everything under the sun was in the literature we could all just stop research right now.

3:27 she says it one more time, i cant find it in the literature. what is she on tv for, just to take silent digs at the patient and hint that shes a fraud?

3:50 that case in the past, she says "BUT thats true". clearly she feels this entire thing to be a fraud. whether it is a fraud thats not my concern, what concerns me is her tone of voice and her lack of trust in the patient. lack of empathy u can say.

she goes on to emphasize how important the flu shot is, and disregard the entirety of this case. 😎

alright im done here. watch her tone of voice throughout of the video, and her choice of words, like i mentioned above. trust between doctor and patients is the more important thing in health care, and i am disappointede with such disregard and the lack of sincerity in trying to fully understand the patient before jumping to conclusions on a tv program

 

[7starmantis]

the seasonal flu vaccine has been around for almost 70 years and this has never been seen as a side effect...you're far more likely to get in a fatal car accident on the way to get your flu shot than to have any serious side effects

Well, if its not likely then we certainly shouldn't educate people about it, after all they are the general populace and we all know they are too stupid to make rational decisions about their own care.

 

[bannie22]

People should not be informed of something if there is no evidence to support it...it's irresponsible and leads to people making rash decisions that have no basis in reality...

the seasonal flu vaccine has been around for almost 70 years and this has never been seen as a side effect...you're far more likely to get in a fatal car accident on the way to get your flu shot than to have any serious side effects

have you ever done research before?
in clinical research, you have to inform your patient of every single possible mishap. and this can include slipping on the floor... if i exaggerate.

especially in a democratic country, all information should be released to the public, and allow the patient to decide for him or herself.

just because something has no p<0.05 does not mean that it is insignificant. just because something has never happened before, doesnt mean that we do not prepare for it, doesnt mean that we hide from it, doesnt mean that we ignore it.

this is something that requires more research, and i hope to see that done, but not by maryland because they seem to have already made up their mind (leads to bias)👍

 

[schrizto]

Well, if its not likely then we certainly shouldn't educate people about it, after all they are the general populace and we all know they are too stupid to make rational decisions about their own care.

I almost feel like the news isn't "educating" people about a possible rare side effect but just causing panic.

 

[bannie22]

lol You guys are seriously intense. Chillax. Your going to have a stroke before your 30. I was actually just joking for the most part hence the little smiley face.

But since you brought it up, I'm sure as a med student you understand the idea of acceptable risk? If you have H1N1 its acceptable to risk the side effects of a drug. If you dont....

I dont get seasonal flu shots because I haven't had the flu in nearly 8 years and I'm young (relatively) and healthy, I usually just run a sprint triathlon if I think I'm getting sick and that clears it up. I figure since the government can't successfully manage the creation and distribution of seasonal flu vaccines to the elderly in Florida I would let mine be used by someone who needs it. 🙄

^ first point is excellent. i am going to go chillax 😛

^^ second point is. thats worrying that they do not have enough. but floridaa. ummmm its not even cold there 😉

 

[StormingWynn]

have you ever done research before?
in clinical research, you have to inform your patient of every single possible mishap. and this can include slipping on the floor... if i exaggerate.

especially in a democratic country, all information should be released to the public, and allow the patient to decide for him or herself.

just because something has no p<0.05 does not mean that it is insignificant. just because something has never happened before, doesnt mean that we do not prepare for it, doesnt mean that we hide from it, doesnt mean that we ignore it.

this is something that requires more research, and i hope to see that done, but not by maryland because they seem to have already made up their mind (leads to bias)👍

lol, 👍 You made very good points here and in your last point. Yes I did notice her smiling smirk the entire video, dismissing the reporter as if he knew nothing.

 

[bannie22]

I almost feel like the news isn't "educating" people about a possible rare side effect but just causing panic.

yes this would cause some panic in the public, but im sure if ure a patient, you would have wanted to know the "possibilities", instead of *touchwood* if you do get a side effect, you do not want to feel like uve been cheated do you?

and same for the doctor, keeping something like this from the patient, would you not feel bad if your patient indeed develops a side effect? and with all the malpractice suits around these days too...

but either ways, you are right that to the general public, this will cause panic. but its not the sort of panic thats gonna erupt in riots or something... so being knowledgable, at least to me, is still the better option.

 

[bannie22]

*disclaimer*
i do not dislike university of maryland in anyway, i would still attend the school if accepted (i did not apply)
but i just feel that as a doctor on television, she could have been slightly more sensitive towards the patient and those that would have been empathizing towards her plight.
but i am glad that she was in support of flu shots, because i still believe it is the wiser option as the odds of dying from the flu, are much higher than developing dystonia.
*end*