FMGs calling themselves MDs

[jon stewart]

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Why oh why continue to dredge up this topic...

what med school are you in? u tas? just curious!

 

[Hayden2102]

Yep UTAS!

 

[med_heidelberg]

yea this is a rather dumb topic .. for what its worth I would rather use the German title of Dr. med than MD anyway. Dr. med is the academic title granted to medical students upon completion of a Doktorarbeit (medical thesis often leading to publication).

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

In dentistry, the foreign dentists don't get "DDS" just by completing the State dental boards exams. You actually have to go back to the dental school (in the US) to be conferred a DDS degree. So until the degree is conferred, foreign dentists use "BDS" or "BChD".

I really think those wanting to guise themselves as an MD rather than as MBBS is not so ethical. US MDs and foreign MBBS are just fundamentally different. And don't argue that the educational component was the same. The ink on the paper degree says what it means... and that's what you would use to register as a physician.

What do you think about Prof. Pogrel then (chair of OMFS at San Fran) he has both an MBChB and a BDS from the UK, yet he goes by MD, DDS while in the US? Do you think he is unethical and trying to fool people? 😕

Anthony Pogrel, DDS, MD, FACS, FRCS

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I really don't understand why we allow IMGs to use MD, but not DOs. It should be all or none.

This was also already addressed on the first page of this thread.

DO = Osteopathic medical degree

MD = MBBS = MBChB = Allopathic medical degrees

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Exactly. People seem to really struggle with comprehending that if you generalize to say: "ALL foreign doctors are equally trained to U.S. doctors", you're including all the permutations along the vast spectrum of medical education that exists. There are too many what if scenarios that scare the **** out of me to accept that generalization.

And if you generalize to say: "well, if they passed the USMLE, they're the same as a U.S. grad". ....seriously? You think just passing the USMLE is good enough to be your doctor? I bet if I put an ad in the paper offering an MD for 10 months of hard studying charging $1,000 for review books and $2,000 in prep courses and then signing them up to take the Steps, I'd be churning out doctors like there was no tomorrow. Make no mistake - we have a system for selecting, educating, training, testing, monitoring, and licensing our physicians in this country for a reason.

Does all of this mean: No foreign doctor = U.S. doctor? Of course ***ing not. There are plenty of examples of foreign physicians who've been trained equally to or better than us. Is it wrong to verify this? Of course ****ing not.

Is it wrong to give everyone with any "doctory" degree an MD after their name? Of course not. Think about it. How is it not hypocritical to refuse to let DO's (who are verifiably the exact equivalent of an MD, and in our own country/system) use "MD" but let someone from another system, another licensing oversight board, another degree (their equivalent though it may be), and who knows what else use it? What about NP's? Their training/expertise/training may be equivalent to the training a physician gets .

Awesome! Cause it seems that is the way things are going in the US anyhow. I'm glad you approve. After you have Clinton or Edwards -> (who has made his millions as a medical malpractice attorney) as president and they start running doctors away from areas that desperately need them and pushing for more midlevels to instead do the jobs of Physicians across the country. (why? Because its cheaper that way and the insurance companies and lawyers love it).

Sorry, but I'd rather have an MBBS (doctor) who is fully trained in medical Anesthesia and can deal with any possible complicated scenario than an American Nurse putting me to sleep and monitoring my life support.

Also, would rather have a Medically trained GP Doctor (MBBS) than a Nurse Practitioner as a family doctor.

But that's just me. 👍

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

In case anyone was interested:

UPenn was the first medical school in the United States.

UPenn, Harvard, and Toronto medical programs (among others) used to all give M.B. (Bachelor of Medicine) degrees as their primary undergraduate medical qualification when they first started.


"The first graduates of Harvard Medical School were John Fleet (1766-1813) and George Holmes Hall (d. 1807), both members of the Class of 1788. Upon completion of their studies, these first students did not receive a doctoral degree but rather the M.B., or Bachelor of Medicine."

 

[jon stewart]

Yep UTAS!

ohh.. i didn't know they have a med school at u tas? you must have gotten in through your hsc and umat? (its been i while since i left aus..ahha) Damn you must be smart! 👍 🙂

 

[da8s0859q]

In case anyone was interested:

UPenn was the first medical school in the United States.

Oh? That's interesting.

 

[TRAMD]

This was also already addressed on the first page of this thread.

DO = Osteopathic medical degree

MD = MBBS = MBChB = Allopathic medical degrees

You managed to tell me something I already knew and not answer my rhetorical question. Great job!

 

[Hayden2102]

ohh.. i didn't know they have a med school at u tas? you must have gotten in through your hsc and umat? (its been i while since i left aus..ahha) Damn you must be smart! 👍 🙂

LOL Yeah they do, a pretty good one too. Just started a wholly new curriculum last year, it's very interesting.

Smart? Haha who knows...

 

[gujuDoc]

MBBS and MBChB are the same as MD, so who cares?

Well this is somewhat true. I know in India, MBBS is like equivalent of being a PCP but to go further you need to get an MD which is one step further then their MBBS.

Of course it varies from country to country.

I however think it is ok to use the term MD rather then MBBS and also less confusing by using that term if you've done your residency here, taken the USMLE step 1, 2, 3, and gotten board certification in your field. You are then qualified on the basis that you are equal with your MD counterparts in this country. Also, before someone brings it up, I don't think this is the same thing as saying if you got a DO you should be allowed to call yourself an MD even if you've done the above. I think this is because the DO does have a separate OMM component that distinguishes it as well both the USMLE and COMLEX whereas MBBS people just take USMLE and learn on a level that is not that different then the US MD degree. The difference here being that we have more advanced technology, resources, and research.

 

[gujuDoc]

LOL Yeah they do, a pretty good one too. Just started a wholly new curriculum last year, it's very interesting.

Smart? Haha who knows...

Did you have to take the UMAT or MCAT to get in? I ask this question because a friend was recently telling me about the UMAT which is required for the phillipines if you want to attend med school there. However, I remember a few years ago someone telling me that you need MCAT scores in Australia.

Or is it optional on which one you take to get into the programs there?

 

[gujuDoc]

It seems completely fair to me that if a doc has graduated from a school outside the US and has either completed their boards that we see as satisfactory or our USMLE boards that they should be allowed to use the MD behind their name while practicing in the US. I also believe that DOs should be allowed to use MD if they passed the USMLE exams and wish to do so. This would alleviate confusion that I believe DOs can run into sometimes. I really don't understand why we allow IMGs to use MD, but not DOs. It should be all or none.

I addressed this in the post I just posted because I knew it was bound to come up by someone on here with all our MD vs. DO debates.

The answer to your question is that DOs have a distinguished degree for two reasons. One they must learn the technique known as OMM (Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine). Two they require a separate licensing boards COMLEX. Only people who've gone through DO training can take the COMLEX. Seeing as the existence of the DO degree is only really in America, there aren't others learning OMM and there isn't an offering of the COMLEX to foreigners. Since both aren't components of their training and their approach is more similar to traditional med schools, it seems reasonable that they'd use the term MD rather then DO.

 

[gujuDoc]

Exactly. People seem to really struggle with comprehending that if you generalize to say: "ALL foreign doctors are equally trained to U.S. doctors", you're including all the permutations along the vast spectrum of medical education that exists. There are too many what if scenarios that scare the **** out of me to accept that generalization.

And if you generalize to say: "well, if they passed the USMLE, they're the same as a U.S. grad". ....seriously? You think just passing the USMLE is good enough to be your doctor? I bet if I put an ad in the paper offering an MD for 10 months of hard studying charging $1,000 for review books and $2,000 in prep courses and then signing them up to take the Steps, I'd be churning out doctors like there was no tomorrow. Make no mistake - we have a system for selecting, educating, training, testing, monitoring, and licensing our physicians in this country for a reason.

Does all of this mean: No foreign doctor = U.S. doctor? Of course ***ing not. There are plenty of examples of foreign physicians who've been trained equally to or better than us. Is it wrong to verify this? Of course ****ing not.

Is it wrong to give everyone with any "doctory" degree an MD after their name? Of course not. Think about it. How is it not hypocritical to refuse to let DO's (who are verifiably the exact equivalent of an MD, and in our own country/system) use "MD" but let someone from another system, another licensing oversight board, another degree (their equivalent though it may be), and who knows what else use it? What about NP's? Their training/expertise/training may be equivalent to the training a physician gets in Somalia. Is it right to grant an MD to the Somali but refuse it to our own NP? There are too many inconsistencies for me (or any reasonable person, in my opinion) to support something like this.

The difference is that the reason DOs don't use the term MD is because they themselves want that division. At least older DOs running the AOA are the ones too scared to merge with the big bad AMA and accept that they aren't anything unique and no different then MDs. They also refuse to accept that many DOs don't even use OMM/OMT training that they learned. They are the ones who choose to keep the division from MDs not just the other way around. I believe that if they wanted a greater unification between the two groups it would happen but the fact of the matter is those up at the top don't want it.

 

[gujuDoc]

What do you think about Prof. Pogrel then (chair of OMFS at San Fran) he has both an MBChB and a BDS from the UK, yet he goes by MD, DDS while in the US? Do you think he is unethical and trying to fool people? 😕

Anthony Pogrel, DDS, MD, FACS, FRCS

OFMS programs usually grant people the right to use the terms MD, DDS because the actual residency program is an MD program. They allow people to use either the MD or DDS route to become a surgeon and legally allow them to obtain the MD and DDS or DMD titles.

 

[gujuDoc]

I'm a pharmacist, so you could say that I'm impartial. What I find interesting is that the majority of you appear to have no objection to foreign physicians using the MD title to avoid confusing patients with unfamiliar degrees, but most of you are vehemently opposed to offering osteopathic physicians the same privilege. It strikes me as a double standard.

Some have defended the position on the grounds that the foreign graduates are trained pursuant to the allopathic model, and their degree is therefore equivalent to the MD. It seems to me, though, that the differences between the allopathic and osteopathic models are exaggerated. Honestly, with the exception of learning OMM, does the DO curriculum really deviate significantly from MD curriculum? Is there any sensible reason to consider foreign educated allopathic physicians more your equal than osteopathic physicians?

Granted, I realize that there are probably many osteopathic physicians who are not interested in using the MD title, but there are many who would jump at the opportunity for the same reason as the foreign graduates. Outside the medical community (and to some degree even inside it) the DO designation is not widely recognized; most Americans do not know that a DO is essentially the same as an MD. Frankly, I didn't know anything about them until researching healthcare careers prior to pharmacy school. They constantly complain about having to qualify their credentials.

The bottom line is that a U.S. DO receives training virtually identical to a U.S. MD. They take similar or equivalent tests, they work in the same practice settings, and they perform the same tasks. They shouldn't be denied the right to use the MD title if it's permissable for foreign graduates with a different degree to do so. Of course, there would then be little point in offering the DO path, as OMM could simply be an optional component of the MD curriculum...but that's another discussion. Everyone should just use the title conferred unto them.

As I said before, why don't you go tell that to the AOA. they are the reasons this division is maintained.

 

[Depakote]

It's amazing the length people will go when arguing semantics on SDN.

 

[gujuDoc]

Did you make a new account just to argue with me? I am honored. I can assure you that I am doing fine in my medical training and that my English is probably as good as yours if not somewhat better. You are free to avoid my services as much as you please. Personally when I'm in dire medical need I could care less how open minded my doctors are. I suppose they should give each physician a test to determine how open minded they are and then you can avoid the ones that do not agree with your political views.

No one is saying that they should give anyone an MD who passed the boards. Most of the people who've gone to foreign med schools and passed have been people who've learned the same materials as we've had to endure. The difference is they don't have the greater amount of research activities and a requirement for an undergrad degree first.

I think this issue was debated somewhere maybe in this forurm earlier. Like those from earlier, i do believe that there should be some sort of international body that examines the quality of the education from these international schools. That being said, I have known several very competent FMGs who are practicing in fields like ortho, cardiology, Gastroenterology, IM, general surgery, OB/GYN, etc. who have led successful careers over the past 20 to 30 years they've been in this country. Some have even been nominated as top 10 doctors in the state in their field and given several lectures and what not across the state on their line of medicine. Many of them now have children who trained both at in state schools and top tier schools like HMS who are now also practicing physicians or in the midst of residency.

So I dont' know how fair it is to say that they are less qualified then us.

 

[TRAMD]

I addressed this in the post I just posted because I knew it was bound to come up by someone on here with all our MD vs. DO debates.

The answer to your question is that DOs have a distinguished degree for two reasons. One they must learn the technique known as OMM (Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine). Two they require a separate licensing boards COMLEX. Only people who've gone through DO training can take the COMLEX. Seeing as the existence of the DO degree is only really in America, there aren't others learning OMM and there isn't an offering of the COMLEX to foreigners. Since both aren't components of their training and their approach is more similar to traditional med schools, it seems reasonable that they'd use the term MD rather then DO.

Two "answers" to a rhetorical statement. There is no question mark so it is not a question. I know the differences between MDs and DOs.

 

[jon stewart]

LOL Yeah they do, a pretty good one too. Just started a wholly new curriculum last year, it's very interesting.

Smart? Haha who knows...

i only have admiration and amazement for those of you who get in through the hsc years. Man, so much pressure and no error for mistakes. I can see why, kinda the arena physicians are in! Those are some tough times. I wonder sometimes with the whole undergrad approach and extras here in the US, Thats a whole another topic.

I have forgotten, when does Sydney to Hobart run? Are you into rugby, cricket? Its soon to be summer time!

 

[Northerner]

Awesome! Cause it seems that is the way things are going in the US anyhow. I'm glad you approve. After you have Clinton or Edwards -> (who has made his millions as a medical malpractice attorney) as president and they start running doctors away from areas that desperately need them and pushing for more midlevels to instead do the jobs of Physicians across the country. (why? Because its cheaper that way and the insurance companies and lawyers love it).

Sorry, but I'd rather have an MBBS (doctor) who is fully trained in medical Anesthesia and can deal with any possible complicated scenario than an American Nurse putting me to sleep and monitoring my life support.

Also, would rather have a Medically trained GP Doctor (MBBS) than a Nurse Practitioner as a family doctor.

But that's just me. 👍

Considering what I said was, "What about NP's? Their training/expertise/training may be equivalent to the training a physician gets in Somalia", it looks like you totally missed the point.

 

[Northerner]

The difference is that the reason DOs don't use the term MD is because they themselves want that division. At least older DOs running the AOA are the ones too scared to merge with the big bad AMA and accept that they aren't anything unique and no different then MDs. They also refuse to accept that many DOs don't even use OMM/OMT training that they learned. They are the ones who choose to keep the division from MDs not just the other way around. I believe that if they wanted a greater unification between the two groups it would happen but the fact of the matter is those up at the top don't want it.

Yeah, right. The higher-ups may hold the party line of "we're NOT MD's!", but make no mistake, a large portion of DO's/DO students would use "MD" if given the chance. Heck, go check out polls in the DO forums on this very topic.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

i only have admiration and amazement for those of you who get in through the hsc years. Man, so much pressure and no error for mistakes. I can see why, kinda the arena physicians are in! Those are some tough times. I wonder sometimes with the whole undergrad approach and extras here in the US, Thats a whole another topic.

I have forgotten, when does Sydney to Hobart run? Are you into rugby, cricket? Its soon to be summer time!

Also, just so people know.. just because someone has an MBBS or MBChB doesn't mean they got in out of HS. Most of the Medical schools in the UK have a grad-entry option, and half of the Australian schools are complely 4-year grad-entry. Sydney for example is an MBBS but requires a previous bachelors degree for admission.

Also, the MD is an "undergraduate medical degree" as is the MBBS. even they they both may be "graduate-entry" aka: (require a previous degree for admission).

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Considering what I said was, "What about NP's? Their training/expertise/training may be equivalent to the training a physician gets in Somalia", it looks like you totally missed the point.

Well.. MY point is that many of the NPs, not to mention the CRNAs would argue that their education is equal to a US MD with GP training or anesth training. So what does that say about your education (assuming you're in medical school in the US)?


Do you have a copy of the syllabus from a Somalian medical school? Do you know anyone who attended one?

Regardless of your opinion… The law states that if a Somalian physician passes the USLME and completes a residency in the US, then he/she is equivalent to a US doctor.. not a Nurse.

Even if the Somalian doctor completes all their training in Africa, they are still a physician and not a nurse.

Sorry

Basically your "point" was just an ignorant, racist, and xenophobic remark, and nothing more.


Peace

 

[Hayden2102]

Did you have to take the UMAT or MCAT to get in? I ask this question because a friend was recently telling me about the UMAT which is required for the phillipines if you want to attend med school there. However, I remember a few years ago someone telling me that you need MCAT scores in Australia.

Or is it optional on which one you take to get into the programs there?

The MCAT has no place in domestic applications, it's very rare to even hear of that here. I heard that some international applicants can use MCAT scores, but for everyone else in undergraduate entry, it's UMAT (and GAMSAT for graduate entry).

i only have admiration and amazement for those of you who get in through the hsc years. Man, so much pressure and no error for mistakes. I can see why, kinda the arena physicians are in! Those are some tough times. I wonder sometimes with the whole undergrad approach and extras here in the US, Thats a whole another topic.

I have forgotten, when does Sydney to Hobart run? Are you into rugby, cricket? Its soon to be summer time!

LOL, remember HSC is just a New South Wales thing, it has a different name in every state. And actually I didn't apply at the end of my schooling, I did a couple of years of another course before applying. Ironically, universities make it more difficult in this position for me to get a place; because I didn't graduate from that course I wasn't eligible for graduate-entry and because I had a tertiary record I wasn't able to use my (good) secondary school scores.

There were less places eligible for me (5 possible places for however many applicants) and they used my universitity scores and UMAT.

I was incredibly lucky for it to have worked out the way it has. One success story I suppose. I know a lot of other people in the same boat who missed out. However they're now either trying again next year or going towards graduation to try for graduate-entry schools.

 

[jon stewart]

UMAT and hsc or whatever state you are in give you the UAI after you take those tests, with that you can enter through hs if you score high enough.

GAMSAT is only for grad entry and is required by aussie citizens and permanent residents and pr of nz too i think.

MCAT scores can be submitted if you are an intl student, but you can take the gamsat too if you would like. This is also ONLY for grad entry.

 

[Northerner]

Well.. MY point is that many of the NPs, not to mention the CRNAs would argue that their education is equal to a US MD with GP training or anesth training. So what does that say about your education (assuming you're in medical school in the US)?


Do you have a copy of the syllabus from a Somalian medical school? Do you know anyone who attended one?

Regardless of your opinion… The law states that if a Somalian physician passes the USLME and completes a residency in the US, then he/she is equivalent to a US doctor.. not a Nurse.

Even if the Somalian doctor completes all their training in Africa, they are still a physician and not a nurse.

Sorry

Basically your "point" was just an ignorant, racist, and xenophobic remark, and nothing more.


Peace

(If it's alright with you, I'll just ignore the name-calling)


Few, if any, NP's or CRNA's are currently claiming their education/training is equivalent....although personally I think we're on a slippery slope that's headed that direction. Obviously this is a pretty big problem.

Regarding the rest....you seem confused about whether you want a (perhaps) inadequately trained doctor treating you or a midlevel. Am I saying Somalian doctors are incompetent or inadequately trained? No, I have no idea. You have no idea. Our licensing boards, I'm betting, have no idea, and if they do, they certainly aren't as familiar and comfortable with the intricacies of their training as they are with U.S. physicians. By completing a residency in the U.S., this point is made pretty much moot, however there are those who argue foreign grads should be considered on equal footing in residency selection to U.S. MD's. Too far.
But yes, medical training is more than just USMLE prep......and therefore the education/training/curriculm/school model DOES matter.

I'm not sure what about that is ignorant, racist and xenophobic, but the smart money says you're a lovable troll anyway, so I'm glad to help.

 

[Hayden2102]

UMAT and hsc or whatever state you are in give you the UAI after you take those tests, with that you can enter through hs if you score high enough.

GAMSAT is only for grad entry and is required by aussie citizens and permanent residents and pr of nz too i think.

MCAT scores can be submitted if you are an intl student, but you can take the gamsat too if you would like. This is also ONLY for grad entry.

Yeh... isn't that what I said?

 

[jon stewart]

haha..i thought gujudoc asked something so i answered....perhaps i am on sdn too much and getting confused?? oh well its good to know that what i know is accurate..haha 😳

so how long is your med program? 4 or 6 years?

 

[Hayden2102]

In between! 5.

 

[gujuDoc]

In between! 5.

Hahaha thank you to both you and Jonstewart.

Yeah I was just curious about that because I used to have this classmate a couple years ago who was planning on trying to get into australian medical schools and move there permanently. She didn't like America too much and so wanted to move there. she was the one who told me that all you needed was MCAT and GPA to apply there. So i was curious if MCAT was their main entry test as it seemed odd to me. But what you are saying make more sense

Again. Thanks for the answers.