FMGs calling themselves MDs

[Dr.Millisevert]

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Members do not see this ad.

But if you earn a US MD and go practice in the UK, you are allowed to use the MD title even though you have not earned it UK-style. Bonus!

Yes.. HOWEVER.. the uk has a tradition of listing WHERE you received your degree after the title.

Example:

Jo Blow, MBBS (Melbourne), Jo Blow, MBBChir (Cambridge), Jo Blow, MD (Arkansas)


So, even if they did allow you to use your MD title.. everyone would know that it was an "american degree" because the school would be listed on your business cards or outside your practice. 🙄

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

So all this talk about MBBS=MD is premised on the notion that the MBBS was recieved from some decent system. I don't know if you guys know that there are medschools in Sudan handing out that stuff.

The argument that labeling foreign doctors with "MD" will help remove confusion amongst patients makes no sense to me either;

1) The MD is given out at crappy schools too.. do you really think that the lowest 2 medical schools in the US are equal an MD from Harvard or Yale? Or.. what about some of the European medical schools that also give out the MD, or what about the Caribbean medical schools that give out MD degrees? 🙄


2) It will help to reduce confusion because everyone in the US and Canada think of MD or DO when they hear the world physician. This is just so your patient will know that you are a physician. And yes I agree with you that they have a right to know where you went to school. If they ask, you can tell them. This would be no different than if you have an MD from Europe, or Canada!!

3) As long as you've passed your ECMFG and you have completed ACGME accredited residency training and have obtained a US state medical license and are board eligible/certified in a particular field. Then.. YES, you have the right to use the MD title and practice as a physician in the United states.. Get over it. If you have a problem with it then write a letter to your local medical board, because complaining about it to us won't help you. 🙂

 

[Its_MurDAH]

So all this talk about MBBS=MD is premised on the notion that the MBBS was recieved from some decent system. I don't know if you guys know that there are medschools in Sudan handing out that stuff. The argument that labeling foreign doctors with "MD" will help remove confusion amongst patients makes no sense to me either; since that implicitly assumes the patient does not care nor have a right to know where their physician got their medical degree from. I say we call things exactly what they are. BTW, you will get a pitchfork stuck in your eye, if you attempt to make this type of title transition in the UK.

For some reason what you are saying here faintly reminds me of the "Those damn immigrants come in here and take all our jobs" argument.

Also, I will probably take a doctor from Sudan over one from the US to treat my illness any day.

 

[Dr Girlfriend]

the issue isn't whether the degrees are equivalent or not. E.g. a D.O. is for all intents and purposes equivalent to an M.D., but they can't call themselves M.D., can they? Why should FMGs be different?

I'm with ya. Just because the degrees are equivalent doesn't mean you should be able to choose the one you want to represent yourself.

 

[SomeDoc]

I'm with ya. Just because the degrees are equivalent doesn't mean you should be able to choose the one you want to represent yourself.

You don't just pick as you please; you're allowed substitutions as the law permits (sorry for having to address this for the second time).

Please read the rest of the thread. Its all explained in previous posts.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Actually this is pretty interesting... Those who graduate from McGill Medical school in Canada actually get an M.D.C.M. degree, however most drop the C.M. and list themselves as MDs like everyone else who has recieved an allopathic degree and practices in the US ...again to reduce confusion. 👍

 

[Its_MurDAH]

Actually this is pretty interesting... Those who graduate from McGill Medical school in Canada actually get an M.D.C.M. degree, however most drop the C.M. and list themselves as MDs like everyone else who has recieved an allopathic degree and practices in the US ...again to reduce confusion. 👍

Yep. It isn't to gain more respect and prestige as some people have suggested earlier. Also, it certainly isn't about duping the patient into thinking you are more qualified than you actually are. The title change is simply a matter of reducing confusion and avoiding countless explanations. I don't understand why some people are still so vehemently against it.

Now if a PA or a NP were to take those initials (M.D.) as their own in their practice...😱

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Yep. It isn't to gain more respect and prestige as some people have suggested earlier. Also, it certainly isn't about duping the patient into thinking you are more qualified than you actually are. The title change is simply a matter of reducing confusion and avoiding countless explanations.

exactly

Now if a PA or a NP were to take those initials (M.D.) as their own in their practice...😱

I don't see how this is or ever will be an issue, as we are simply talking about people who have completed an allopathic medical degree. PAs and NPs do not complete a degree in medicine.

The role of PA/NP vs. MD wasn't the subject of the thread and I hope we don't let this one break down to this discussion. This is probably best discussed elsewhere.

 

[Taurus]

I wouldn't worry about DO's or FMG's calling themselves doctors. They're physicians.

You should worry more about non-physicians midlevels like NP's and CRNA's who want to play doctor.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Well, I just don't think that MBBS/MBChBs should call themselves MDs in the US "just to keep it simple for the patients". Patients already know that they are coming to see a "doctor". The patient would probably already know from the accent of the "foreign" doctor that he/she wasn't from the US! So I think their foreign degree should stay. If you're using an MD for the sake of simplicity for the patient, I think you are simply trying to fudge the fact that you went to a non-US medical school. Why?

In dentistry, the foreign dentists don't get "DDS" just by completing the State dental boards exams. You actually have to go back to the dental school (in the US) to be conferred a DDS degree. So until the degree is conferred, foreign dentists use "BDS" or "BChD".

I really think those wanting to guise themselves as an MD rather than as MBBS is not so ethical. US MDs and foreign MBBS are just fundamentally different. And don't argue that the educational component was the same. The ink on the paper degree says what it means... and that's what you would use to register as a physician.

 

[Hayden2102]

Well, I just don't think that MBBS/MBChBs should call themselves MDs in the US "just to keep it simple for the patients". Patients already know that they are coming to see a "doctor". The patient would probably already know from the accent of the "foreign" doctor that he/she wasn't from the US! So I think their foreign degree should stay. If you're using an MD for the sake of simplicity for the patient, I think you are simply trying to fudge the fact that you went to a non-US medical school. Why?

In dentistry, the foreign dentists don't get "DDS" just by completing the State dental boards exams. You actually have to go back to the dental school (in the US) to be conferred a DDS degree. So until the degree is conferred, foreign dentists use "BDS" or "BChD".

I really think those wanting to guise themselves as an MD rather than as MBBS is not so ethical. US MDs and foreign MBBS are just fundamentally different. And don't argue that the educational component was the same. The ink on the paper degree says what it means... and that's what you would use to register as a physician.

With the bolded statement, I don't think you really know what you're talking about. They are the same.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

I think I do. MDs and MBBS are both doctors. But their degrees are quite different. So I do know what I am talking about.

 

[Tired]

Silly foreigners, MD's are for Americans.

Don't be ashamed of your degree.

 

[Hayden2102]

Well, enlighten us. Outline their differences.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Silly foreigners, MD's are for Americans.

Don't be ashamed of your degree.

I wanted to second that. Don't sell yourself too short!

Someone sent me a link to the AMA website so I am going to post it below.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11069.html
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Q. I am an IMG and my medical school does not award an MD degree. My degree is an MBBS. No one in the United States recognizes the MBBS degree. Can I use the initials "MD" after my name?

A: Before using MD after your name, check with your state licensing board. Many states permit a physician who is licensed to practice medicine in a state to use "MD", even if they earned an MBBS, MB ChB or other equivalent medical degree from an international medical school. Some states, however, require licensed physicians who earned a degree other than an MD to submit a second, separate application requesting permission to use "MD". If you need to use ‘MD’ in more than one state, check with each state’s medical board since policies between state boards can differ.

A recent case in Kansas illustrates the laws concerning use of MD. An oral surgeon who received a doctor of medicine (MD) degree from a medical school outside the U.S. had used the MD initials after his name in his professional practice. The Kansas Court of Appeals and the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts ruled that he could not use the MD initials in his practice because although he was licensed as an oral surgeon, he was not licensed to practice medicine.

To learn what types of medical degrees are offered in various countries, you can search the International Medical Education Directory (IMED). IMED lists and provides information on thousands of medical schools around the world and includes the title of the medical degree awarded in different countries. IMED is maintained by the Foundation for Advancement of Medical Education and Research (FAIMER) (This link will take you off the AMA Web site. The AMA is not responsible for the content of other Web sites.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------👍

 

[Hayden2102]

That was already posted at the start of the thread.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

I wanted to second that. Don't sell yourself too short!

Someone sent me a link to the AMA website so I am going to post it below.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11069.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. I am an IMG and my medical school does not award an MD degree. My degree is an MBBS. No one in the United States recognizes the MBBS degree. Can I use the initials "MD" after my name?

A: Before using MD after your name, check with your state licensing board. Many states permit a physician who is licensed to practice medicine in a state to use "MD", even if they earned an MBBS, MB ChB or other equivalent medical degree from an international medical school. Some states, however, require licensed physicians who earned a degree other than an MD to submit a second, separate application requesting permission to use "MD". If you need to use ‘MD' in more than one state, check with each state's medical board since policies between state boards can differ.

A recent case in Kansas illustrates the laws concerning use of MD. An oral surgeon who received a doctor of medicine (MD) degree from a medical school outside the U.S. had used the MD initials after his name in his professional practice. The Kansas Court of Appeals and the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts ruled that he could not use the MD initials in his practice because although he was licensed as an oral surgeon, he was not licensed to practice medicine.

To learn what types of medical degrees are offered in various countries, you can search the International Medical Education Directory (IMED). IMED lists and provides information on thousands of medical schools around the world and includes the title of the medical degree awarded in different countries. IMED is maintained by the Foundation for Advancement of Medical Education and Research (FAIMER) (This link will take you off the AMA Web site. The AMA is not responsible for the content of other Web sites.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------👍

Umm, how is this selling oneself short??

In fact, this article you posted works against your argument. It is only a matter of submitting an application to be able to use MD after your name in all states if you have a foreign medical degree. There are no licensing exams or tests one needs to take to be able to do that. Doesn't that say something to you?

MBBS/Mb Chb = MD
(i.e. The degrees are equivalent, for you *****s)

I can't believe you guys are still harping on about overseas docs being "ashamed" of their degrees. Have you talked to these docs or know anybody who has switched their degree initials personally? Or are you just passing judgment on those "silly foreigners"?

 

[BlondeCookie]

Oh geez! Can we all agree that there are some people didn't do their homework on this issue? This is not a pride issue. In the USA, the state medical boards give the right of the physician to choose what letters they wish to put after their name. Many of the boards actually insist that the foreign trained MBBS or MB CHB doc use the letter MD after their name particularly so that they do not confuse the general public. This from one of my professors.

MBBS = MD
MB CHB = MD

In many commonwealth countries (UK, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc), the medical degree is MBBS or MB CHB. In these countries, there is a research degree that is awarded with the letters "MD", which is NOT a medical degree as it is in the USA. Therefore...

• if a person from one of these Commonwealth countries who has earned an MD degree (not a medical degree) moves to the USA, they should NOT use the term MD. In fact, it would be illegal for them to do so.
• if an MBBS or MB CHB degree holder (doctor) moves to the USA, then they should use the term MD, because they are a medical doctor and the degree that they hold is essentially equivalent. This is to not confuse the American public and has nothing to do with not having pride of having an MBBS or MB CHB.

Do a search. There are heaps of docs in the USA, that graduated from med schools in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc. and they are ALL licensed MDs in the United States!
Here are a couple of examples of MBCHB docs and MBBS docs who are MDs. It IS the legal equivalent and requirement in many states.
http://www.massgeneral.org/cancer/locator/search_clinician.asp?id=130
http://www.kyplasticsurgery.com/kp-about_doctors.htm#2
http://asp.cpmc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=dw40&DepAffil=Surgery

 

[Hayden2102]

Exactly. Some people just don't know what they're talking about, and for some reason, love to let us all know. 😀

 

[johnnyb255]

In many commonwealth countries (UK, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc), the medical degree is MBBS or MB CHB. In these countries, there is a research degree that is awarded with the letters "MD", which is NOT a medical degree as it is in the USA. Therefore...

• if a person from one of these Commonwealth countries who has earned an MD degree (not a medical degree) moves to the USA, they should NOT use the term MD. In fact, it would be illegal for them to do so.

Don't know about the other Commonwealth countries, but in Australia you can't get a MD unless you already have a MBBS. It's a higher doctrate research degree only for MBBS 'doctors'.

 

[claire88]

Silly foreigners, MD's are for Americans.

Don't be ashamed of your degree.

Pssht, it's not only Americans who graduate with an MD. So do we, in Malta (despite the fact that we are a Commonwealth nation).

I don't really see how this is such an issue. Letters behind a name don't make the doctor. There are plenty of brilliant medics with a DO or an MBBS just as there are rubbish ones with an MD. I don't think it's really ethical or even intelligent to favour one degree over the other or change the letters after one's name depending on which country you're in.

MD, DO, MBBS, whatever. They're all doctors, aren't they?

 

[dannieloco]

Pssht, it's not only Americans who graduate with an MD. So do we, in Malta (despite the fact that we are a Commonwealth nation).

I don't really see how this is such an issue. Letters behind a name don't make the doctor. There are plenty of brilliant medics with a DO or an MBBS just as there are rubbish ones with an MD. I don't think it's really ethical or even intelligent to favour one degree over the other or change the letters after one's name depending on which country you're in.

MD, DO, MBBS, whatever. They're all doctors, aren't they?

I'd have to agree. I work in a clinic where the population served is 80% or more minority (blacks, Hispanics). Most of the doctors here are foreign graduates and they're excellent physicians. They all have the letters MD after their name and on their business cards..

"MD, DO, MBBS, whatever" - all the same thing. 👍

 

[peace zealot]

can anybody start residency or even practice without taking usmle............???and if takes usmle then he is a MD.

 

[Pansit]

can anybody start residency or even practice without taking usmle............???and if takes usmle then he is a MD.

Yes...DO's take a different exam called the COMLEX...but many also take the USMLE to become more competitive if they choose to do so. But DO's can strictly take the COMLEX series (level 1,2,3) and take part in both allopathic or osteopathic residencies and become legal physicians.

 

[Hayden2102]

can anybody start residency or even practice without taking usmle............???and if takes usmle then he is a MD.

Wrong. Anyone who has done any medical degree in any country can take the USMLE. So USMLE does not = MD.

 

[TRAMD]

It seems completely fair to me that if a doc has graduated from a school outside the US and has either completed their boards that we see as satisfactory or our USMLE boards that they should be allowed to use the MD behind their name while practicing in the US. I also believe that DOs should be allowed to use MD if they passed the USMLE exams and wish to do so. This would alleviate confusion that I believe DOs can run into sometimes. I really don't understand why we allow IMGs to use MD, but not DOs. It should be all or none.

 

[MWillie]

This MD=DO=MBBS crap has gone too far. There is only one legitimate MD degree in the United States and thats for those who graduated from AMERICAN allopathic schools. I don't care what tests you took or how many years of school you had to go to in your podunk country, in the United Sates of America American MD>all. Some of the ideas in this thread are ridiculous, it seems you guys think just passing the USMLE 1-3 makes you an MD. What if some random persons studied for and passed USMLE on their own, should we give MD degrees to them all?

 

[Blade28]

I also believe that DOs should be allowed to use MD if they passed the USMLE exams and wish to do so. This would alleviate confusion that I believe DOs can run into sometimes. I really don't understand why we allow IMGs to use MD, but not DOs. It should be all or none.

I disagree. Upon finishing DO school, a newly minted graduate will have "DO" on their diploma. I don't believe that should just magically be "converted" into an MD.

Remember, in this country, taking (and passing) all the steps of the USMLE allows you to apply for a state license to practice medicine - nothing else. You can go out on your own and moonlight, work in locum tenens, urgent care, etc., but you can't really find a real job until you finish residency.

 

[Northerner]

The main problem seems to be inconsistency. An American MD wouldn't go to England and start calling himself "MBBS" (or at least I wouldn't) in order to make things easier, I'd like to think we're proud of our degrees, know the legitimacy, would be proud to clarify that they are a medical doctor from the U.S. if asked about the issue, and, as has been already stated, it would probably NOT be a problem for patients.

I think one concern of the "no way" camp is that they know less qualified but perhaps unsuccessful applicants to U.S. MD schools have used other countries' medical education system as an easier or alternate route (e.g. India, etc.) and feel it's unfair that they should be able to come back to the U.S. with said degree and represent themselves as the same as someone who had the benefit of the U.S. training system. Kind of a toss-up.

Another concern from the "no way" camp is likely the fact that other healthcare providers are constantly trying to draw similarities between themselves and an MD. The curricula are evolving to look similar, scope of practice is encroaching, and no one's convinced it's for the right reasons. MD's value the status and accomplishment evidenced by their degree as well as the rights and responsibilities it assigns. The point is, whatever your degree is, you chose that for a reason and should ideally be proud of it. I, for one, wouldn't snub or change my degree for appearances of any kind unless forced to by law or massive inconvenience. That said, obviously there are great physicians practicing in every country, products of likely strong medical training.

 

[jon stewart]

ohh..what should i do.

come home to aus through grad med entry, do my 4 years, come back here to the US and hope that i will get into some residency that i want after taking the USMLE?

or just try and stay here and graduate from a US med school which opens up residency options, assuming i didnt bomb the USMLE?

i guess it all depends where i want to end up practicing/living correct?

 

[elektroshok]

in the United Sates of America American MD>all.

That's pretty ignorant.

 

[dannieloco]

This MD=DO=MBBS crap has gone too far. There is only one legitimate MD degree in the United States and thats for those who graduated from AMERICAN allopathic schools. I don't care what tests you took or how many years of school you had to go to in your podunk country, in the United Sates of America American MD>all. Some of the ideas in this thread are ridiculous, it seems you guys think just passing the USMLE 1-3 makes you an MD. What if some random persons studied for and passed USMLE on their own, should we give MD degrees to them all?

SOOO ignorant..

Many people become physicians in their native country. Because of personal/political reasons they immigrate to the US, they take the USMLE and pass- and are as equally competent as a physician as any US grad.
Many great doctors are FMG's. US schools are great.. but DON'T underestimate medical schools in "podunk" countries.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

SOOO ignorant..

Many people become physicians in their native country. Because of personal/political reasons they immigrate to the US, they take the USMLE and pass- and are as equally competent as a physician as any US grad.
Many great doctors are IMG's. US schools are great.. but DON'T underestimate medical schools in "podunk" countries.

Seconded!

 

[cleverpseudonym]

The main problem seems to be inconsistency. An American MD wouldn't go to England and start calling himself "MBBS" (or at least I wouldn't) in order to make things easier, I'd like to think we're proud of our degrees, know the legitimacy, would be proud to clarify that they are a medical doctor from the U.S. if asked about the issue, and, as has been already stated, it would probably NOT be a problem for patients.

Actually, all of the American qualified physicians on my college faculty must use the term "MD (American undergraduate degree)". This is to differentiate them from Irish/UK doctors with medical degrees and postgraduate degrees.
This would be different as you go the other way round as an MBBS/MBChBBAO is equivalent to US MD

 

[Hayden2102]

This MD=DO=MBBS crap has gone too far. There is only one legitimate MD degree in the United States and thats for those who graduated from AMERICAN allopathic schools. I don't care what tests you took or how many years of school you had to go to in your podunk country, in the United Sates of America American MD>all. Some of the ideas in this thread are ridiculous, it seems you guys think just passing the USMLE 1-3 makes you an MD. What if some random persons studied for and passed USMLE on their own, should we give MD degrees to them all?

Possibly one of the most stupid posts I've ever read on SDN. And that includes the trolls.

You know, it's funny, in 1990 the US accounted for 47% of the world's spending on health, for a population of only about 300 million. And the measurable health outcomes are no better than other first-world countries.

Yet still this arrogance. I don't understand it.

 

[mjl1717]

Wow < I guess this MD /FMG thing is really getting under someones gullet!!

 

[jon stewart]

what happens if a DO med student matches into MD residency after taking the USMLE? then what? can he put MD next to his name, even though he went to a DO medical school?

just curious. I would ask how it works the other way, but MD med school students cant get into DO residencys if they take COMLEX can they?

 

[Northerner]

what happens if a DO med student matches into MD residency after taking the USMLE? then what? can he put MD next to his name, even though he went to a DO medical school?

just curious. I would ask how it works the other way, but MD med school students cant get into DO residencys if they take COMLEX can they?

Not to mention I can't imagine an MD would want to call themselves DO. Generalization.

 

[bulletproof]

This MD=DO=MBBS crap has gone too far. There is only one legitimate MD degree in the United States and thats for those who graduated from AMERICAN allopathic schools. I don't care what tests you took or how many years of school you had to go to in your podunk country, in the United Sates of America American MD>all. Some of the ideas in this thread are ridiculous, it seems you guys think just passing the USMLE 1-3 makes you an MD. What if some random persons studied for and passed USMLE on their own, should we give MD de

Like,OMG,that is so true!Some of the ideas in this thread are ridiculous!

So, by your logic then, a person coming to the U.S. with an M.D. from Ireland, for example would be inferior by virtue of not having attended a U.S. medical school?

http://www.tcd.ie/Graduate_Studies/prospectivestudents/courses/taught/coursepg.php?course_id=62

 

[cyclohexanol]

what happens if a DO med student matches into MD residency after taking the USMLE? then what? can he put MD next to his name, even though he went to a DO medical school?

just curious. I would ask how it works the other way, but MD med school students cant get into DO residencys if they take COMLEX can they?

No. Neither the USMLE nor the COMLEX have anything to do with the degree. The degree is granted by the medical institution one attends, not the test you take.

And you are correct, MD grads can't enter into DO residencies [as of now], and they can't sit for the COMLEX. That is for another discussion though.

 

[TRAMD]

I think we have some breakdowns in communication here. What some people are trying to say is that in the US being an American MD grad is the most desirable, prestigious, etc. degree. This is probably true. What others are trying to say is that not having a US MD degree doesn't make you a lower caliber of doctor. This is also probably true. The two are not mutually exclusive and the truth of one does not prove the fallacy of the other.

 

[MWillie]

I could care less what you FMG's think. I'm glad you guys have a hard time getting a competitive residency here, that's as it should be. Please stay in your own countries.

I've never heard of these Irish schools and I never want to.

 

[GreenShirt]

The main problem seems to be inconsistency. An American MD wouldn't go to England and start calling himself "MBBS" (or at least I wouldn't) in order to make things easier, I'd like to think we're proud of our degrees, know the legitimacy, would be proud to clarify that they are a medical doctor from the U.S. if asked about the issue, and, as has been already stated, it would probably NOT be a problem for patients.

Let's imagine the reverse: you're telling me that if you moved to Australia you'd hang a shingle outside your office that said MD even though everyone there who saw it would interpret it as a PhD? Would you stand outside your office and explain that it was not really a PhD, but that you are an American and in your country this means that you are a physician? I have a feeling that you would have trouble paying for your overhead unless you change your initials to MBBS.

 

[LADoc00]

Interesting point raised by the OP. There is some validity there actually. I could see someone actually winning a lawsuit based on the false advertising that a doc was billed as MD and is in fact not a MD by our educational system.

 

[LADoc00]

SOOO ignorant..

Many people become physicians in their native country. Because of personal/political reasons they immigrate to the US, they take the USMLE and pass- and are as equally competent as a physician as any US grad.
Many great doctors are FMG's. US schools are great.. but DON'T underestimate medical schools in "podunk" countries.

I think the general consensus is that FMGs drive down wages for AMGs who actually have six figure student loans to payback while FMGs step on the ground making profit day one.

Greatness has nothing to do with this. There is a huge problem when MDs leave their home nation, both for us AMGs AND the patients left behind in China, India etc.

 

[Hayden2102]

Interesting point raised by the OP. There is some validity there actually. I could see someone actually winning a lawsuit based on the false advertising that a doc was billed as MD and is in fact not a MD by our educational system.

Ah yes, your country's brilliant legal system...

 

[bulletproof]

I could care less what you FMG's think. I'm glad you guys have a hard time getting a competitive residency here, that's as it should be. Please stay in your own countries.

I've never heard of these Irish schools and I never want to.

👍 thats right...you stay ignorant, in your little coccoon. 🙄
Unfortunatly for you, FMGs will continue to thrive in the U.S. Healthcare system, and there is very little you can do about it. Perhaps you have not read the latest data by the NRMP. Table 1 is particularly interesting. For example, 68 independent applicants matched into dermatology this year, where 158 U.S. seniors did not, or the fact that 352 independent applicants matched into Gen. surg. while 93 U.S. seniors did not. Sorry bud. That is the system.Now if only wishful thinking, and xenophobia were enough....
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[dannieloco]

I hope you become a physician and STAY in your own your little corner of the world. Cause once if you ever come out, you'll see that MD does not equal "genius".

You sound racist 👍, ignorant, and like you've never seen foreigners work in America . I would guess that you have seen the amount of foreigners working in a clinic or hospital by now. The healthcare services they offer are up to par with AMGs.


Once you become a doctor, you might be working under a FMG or atleast along side one, especially if you work in a big hospital like LA County- or anywhere in LA for that matter.

I could care less what you FMG's think. I'm glad you guys have a hard time getting a competitive residency here, that's as it should be. Please stay in your own countries.

I've never heard of these Irish schools and I never want to.

 

[Winged Scapula]

👍 thats right...you stay ignorant, in your little coccoon. 🙄
Unfortunatly for you, FMGs will continue to thrive in the U.S. Healthcare system, and there is very little you can do about it. Perhaps you have not read the latest data by the NRMP. Table 1 is particularly interesting. For example, 68 independent applicants matched into dermatology this year, where 158 U.S. seniors did not, or the fact that 352 independent applicants matched into Gen. surg. while 93 U.S. seniors did not. Sorry bud. That is the system.Now if only wishful thinking, and xenophobia were enough....
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

Not that I don't agree with you about the xenophobia (and this poster's views on such and DOs are well publicized here at SDN) but "Independent Candidates" includes DOs, US AMGs who took at year or more off (ie, not 4th year students), Canadian grads of non-LCME schools, those switching specialties and especially in the case of the more competitive specialties, people who may have not matched last year and reapplied. Certainly there may be some FMGs in there as well, but you cannot assume that all or even a majority of the Independents are FMGs.

 

[nj17]

It's all about the acronyms baby-

I've read most of the thread, but some of this may be a repeat.

From my understanding (and I'm sure to be corrected if I am wrong on any point here) the letters that come after your name derive from the degree bestowed upon you by an accredited academic institution once you have fulfilled their requirements for commencement in that area. At the above master's graduate level in the US the most common type of degree granted is a doctor of (insert something here). For allopathic medicine it is obviously a doctor of medicine (MD) degree, basic science graduate degrees are doctor of philosophy in (whatever) abbreviated PhD. Since medical education in many foreign countries is not considered "graduate" level work and begins immediately out of secondary school, the degrees given to graduates of those schools are bachelors of whatever abbreviated MBBS etc. The disparity in names is really just an extension of two differently structured systems of education and is not a reflection of quality or major curricular differences. When a person moves to a country with a different educational system the name of his/her degree is incongruent with the local system of educational classification, he/she should have the opportunity to apply to use the local abbreviations as long as they could demonstrate equivalent training to avoid confusion. Nobody should have to endure years of the sadly xenophobic scenario of.....

Pt: "Are you a real doctor?"
Doc: "Yes"
Pt: "Are you sure, I thought doctors had to be an MD?"
Doc: "I got my degree outside the US."
Pt: "I WANT SOMEBODY ELSE!!! NOW!!"

That may be a little too dramatic, but I'm sure any foreign doctor who uses his proper degree title experiences something similar at least several times a year. This is not to mention the number of patients a private practice doc would lose simply because people wouldn't understand his/her degree and go to another doc who had an MD/DO.


This does not apply to DOs because doctor of osteopathy degrees are a part of the US medical educational system and should be somewhat familiar to most Americans.

Anyway, my $0.02.......

Oh, and to the guy with the foreign doc hate from WashU, good luck with that attitude in a school comprised of persons from a usually urban background with a very diverse ethnic mix. A mix including those whose family may be immigrants.