For class of 2015+: Applicant rates will go DOWN

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do you mean 75k net or gross? i know it's frowned upon to talk about money, but with all this work and sacrifice of my priceless youth, i'd like to be able to put kids through a good school (public or private, but remember good public school means expensive housing..) and contribute to my parents' retirement

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No, I think your argument is the flawed one. The majority of college majors make 30-40K a year after college. Engineers and computer scientists being at the high end with around 60k a year. They'll move up maybe 30-40k in their lifetime. Maybe. These people still manage to not starve or go cold.

No, you wont make millions being a doctor but you WILL be able to live comfortably on the 100K+ you will be making. And YES, I am taking into account student loans. Even with those, you will be able to feed yourself and your child. You wanna make more money, do something else. You don't like the opportunity cost of medical school/residency? Don't be a doctor.

But don't act like 60k+ a year isn't enough to live on. Because it is.

Agreed. If you live within your means, there's no reason you should be hurting. It's really a question of lifestyle. I think a lot of people link being a doctor with a certain lifestyle and if there's even a hint that they may not be able to live up to that dream lifestyle, people start whining.

You get to HEAL PEOPLE/SAVE LIVES. If that's not enough reward (and the fact that you will live comfortably if not extravagantly) you're probably looking at the wrong line of work. You'll be doing better financially than most of this country. Quit crying.
 
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Agreed. If you live within your means, there's no reason you should be hurting. It's really a question of lifestyle. I think a lot of people link being a doctor with a certain lifestyle and if there's even a hint that they may not be able to live up to that dream lifestyle, people start whining.

You get to HEAL PEOPLE/SAVE LIVES. If that's not enough reward (and the fact that you will live comfortably if not extravagantly) you're probably looking at the wrong line of work. You'll be doing better financially than most of this country. Quit crying.

This is the type of attitude that many doctors have, which is why society can s*** on doctors so easily. If every pre-med felt this way, doctor salaries would be a lot lower, and the smartest kids who are contemplating whether they should go into medicine or go into ibanking/law will end up choosing the latter. And guess what, all the doctors in the US will be *****s, busy patting themselves on the back for "healing" people and "saving lives," and not very effective clinicians and scientists.

No thanks - I want my doctor to be among the smartest students of his generation, and not some pretentious ***** who wasn't good enough to cut it in Big Law or Wall St.
 
This is the type of attitude that many doctors have, which is why society can s*** on doctors so easily. If every pre-med felt this way, doctor salaries would be a lot lower, and the smartest kids who are contemplating whether they should go into medicine or go into ibanking/law will end up choosing the latter. And guess what, all the doctors in the US will be *****s, busy patting themselves on the back for "healing" people and "saving lives," and not very effective clinicians and scientists.

No thanks - I want my doctor to be among the smartest students of his generation, and not some pretentious ***** who wasn't good enough to cut it in Big Law or Wall St.

Having been through business school, I've heard the "best talent goes for the big bucks" argument quite a bit. It is a necessary component for pure capitalism to work, but not everyone cares so much about money.
 
Having been through business school, I've heard the "best talent goes for the big bucks" argument quite a bit. It is a necessary component for pure capitalism to work, but not everyone cares so much about money.
It's not so much about money, it just so happens that money is our major means of acquiring resources. In ecology, you'd probably refer to people who are smart and motivated for success as "optimal foragers". lol
 
:thumbdown:

So donate all your salary [beyond that needed for food/shelter] to medical charities in 3rd world countries.

Why?

...Because by doing this you will be HEALING PEOPLE/SAVING LIVES there. That is a reward in itself!

Even with your measly salary left over after donations, you will still be doing better financially than most in that 3rd world country.

Dumb idea?
No dumber than yours.

[High money = necessary for this field to attract the brightest possible. There may always be outliers who "would do it for free." So what? Outliers.]

Oh, the dramaticism...

There's no point in attacking someone's opinion of just compensation. Everyone has different 'set points' at which they feel the costs of becoming a doctor outweigh the benefits. Why get mad at people who disagree with the relative value YOU place on things like 'opportunity costs', and 'a comfortable lifestyle'? Calm down and realize their is no clear right and wrong.
 
All this forum is anymore is people bitching. "Doctors don't make enough." "It's way too hard!!!" "Compensation compensation compensation." I understand you guy are bright and want your just money. But go into another field if it's a big problem for you. You don't need to spend your days whining about it on SDN. Plenty of other jobs that'll pay you more. Move along.
 
Oh, the dramaticism...

There's no point in attacking someone's opinion of just compensation. Everyone has different 'set points' at which they feel the costs of becoming a doctor outweigh the benefits. Why get mad at people who disagree with the relative value YOU place on things like 'opportunity costs', and 'a comfortable lifestyle'? Calm down and realize their is no clear right and wrong.

If you considered my post as "attacking"... wow, talk about sensitive.

My comment was hardly attacking someone but rather replying to someone attacking another viewpoint and claiming: physicians shouldn't care if salaries go down because they help people.


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All this forum is anymore is people bitching. "Doctors don't make enough." "It's way too hard!!!" "Compensation compensation compensation." I understand you guy are bright and want your just money. But go into another field if it's a big problem for you. You don't need to spend your days whining about it on SDN. Plenty of other jobs that'll pay you more. Move along.

No, I think there is a lot more to the forum than just bitching...
How depressing for you to be so cynical.

So sad -- Sorry, feel better. :(
 
We all know this HC reform bill passed. Some analysts say it will slash doc salaries by as much as 20-25%.


What analysts? I've heard many people say this, but I haven't seen any legitimate info that backs this up. Does anyone have any good non-partisan links?
 
No, I think there is a lot more to the forum than just bitching...
How depressing for you to be so cynical.

So sad -- Sorry, feel better. :(

Dude, this forum isn't enough of my life to let it's bitching make me feel sad. So don't worry. But after the health care bill I honestly stopped coming here an extra 90%, not because I didn't want to be a doctor anymore. But because I hate looking at all the bitching.
 
Parts Unknown, you have been an outspoken proponent of the reform bill, and a lot of your arguments are certainly well-researched. I am curious what you predict the general impact will be on the medical profession with regards to both practice and compensation.

You occasionally hear old docs wistfully recall the so-called Golden Age of medicine. Ironically, that age was built on a huge new revenue stream called Medicare. Fee for service was king, and providers could get paid vast sums by simply doing whatever they wanted and sending Uncle Sam the bill. Costs also spiraled as technology advanced (largely a byproduct of the Vietnam war). In retrospect it's no wonder that it was shut down so harshly by Congress.

With the current reform I think we're about to enter a Silver Age. The rules aren't going to be as loose as the 70's, but expanded coverage will presumably act to decrease uncompensated care (it was otherwise set to explode). The trillion bucks they are set to pour into the system is going to go somewhere, and a large chunk of it will end up in our pockets. That's the good news.

The other news is that they are going to shift payment away from procedure-oriented medicine. Personally, I think there are too many specialists performing too many procedures (many of which are of dubious benefit), so I don't see this as an inherently bad thing. There is going to be more financial incentive to go into primary care.

The best way for the specialists to deal with this (and I've been saying this for the past 2 years) is to slash training positions so they can maintain some leverage.

Anyways, the big unknown in all this is Medicare payment. If you want to understand the huge problem with Medicare payment just read the now infamous Atul Gawande article The Cost Conundrum. The long term survival of Medicare (and medical practice in this country) is going to center around reformulating payment systems. Best case scenario: we clear more profit by doing what we are supposed to do. Worst case: not so good.

Another upcoming fork in the road has to do with electronic medical records. They could be a huge boon for bettering patient care, reducing administrative headache, increasing payment efficiency and accuracy, and reducing errors and redundancy. Or they could be a complete F-ing disaster.

Gotta run, more rambling later...
 
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AAMC predicts a shortage of 125000 physicians by 2025. Does this factor into this discussion at all?
 
This is the type of attitude that many doctors have, which is why society can s*** on doctors so easily. If every pre-med felt this way, doctor salaries would be a lot lower, and the smartest kids who are contemplating whether they should go into medicine or go into ibanking/law will end up choosing the latter. And guess what, all the doctors in the US will be *****s, busy patting themselves on the back for "healing" people and "saving lives," and not very effective clinicians and scientists.

No thanks - I want my doctor to be among the smartest students of his generation, and not some pretentious ***** who wasn't good enough to cut it in Big Law or Wall St.

To quote a finance blog, "BigLaw, ShmigShmaw." Those guys can have fun reading cases and ghost writing for their first 5 years (the .1% of law students that actually make it into big law). And the finance guys can show you a bunch of neat excel shortcuts.

For me, its not nearly as much about getting to save the world as it is working in a highly respected field but not having to wear a suit. Also, working with my hands instead of wasting away behind a desk is a big plus.
 
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