For priors-service doing HPSP or USUHS

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grotto

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Hi all, this is my first post but I wanted to let everyone know that National Defense Authorization 2008 was signed - priors now retain their pay while attending HPSP and at USUHS.

You still get demoted to O-1, but you retain all pay and benefits. Good news for a lot of people, $100K a year med students!

Unfortunately if you go straight in from civilian you still get O-1 pay.

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Hi all, this is my first post but I wanted to let everyone know that National Defense Authorization 2008 was signed - priors now retain their pay while attending HPSP and at USUHS.

You still get demoted to O-1, but you retain all pay and benefits. Good news for a lot of people, $100K a year med students!

Unfortunately if you go straight in from civilian you still get O-1 pay.

The impact of the NDAA is unclear. I suspect prior service in HPSP may get prior pay while on AT, but don't know about the rest of the time. If they do, great. Congress is rarely generous.
 
From the people who pushed it in the armed services committee: the plan does include HPSP for prior service, and will be interpreted as such by DOD.
 
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I haven't heard anything about this, can you give some more information?
 
From the people who pushed it in the armed services committee: the plan does include HPSP for prior service, and will be interpreted as such by DOD.
(c) OFFICERS DETAILED AS STUDENTS AT MEDICAL SCHOOLS.-
(1) APPOINTMENT AND TREATMENT OF PRIOR ACTIVE SERVICE.- Section 2004a of such title is amended-
(A) by redesignating subsections (e) through (h) as subsections
(f) through (i), respectively; and
(B) by inserting after subsection (d) the following new
subsection:
‘‘(e) APPOINTMENT AND TREATMENT OF PRIOR ACTIVE SERVICE.-(
1) A commissioned officer detailed as a student at a medical school under subsection (a) shall be appointed as a regular officer in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign and shall serve on active duty in that grade with full pay and allowances of that grade.
‘‘(2) If an officer detailed to be a medical student has prior active service in a pay grade and with years of service credited for pay that would entitle the officer, if the officer remained in the former grade, to a rate of basic pay in excess of the rate of basic pay for regular officers in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign, the officer shall be paid basic pay based on the former grade and years of service credited for pay. The amount of such basic pay for the officer shall be increased on January 1 of each year by the percentage by which basic pay is increased on average on that date for that year, and the officer shall continue to receive basic pay based on the former grade and years of service until the date, whether occurring before or after graduation, on which the basic pay for the officer in the officer's actual grade and years of service credited for pay exceeds the amount of basic pay to which the officer is entitled based on the officer's former grade and years of service.''.
(2) TECHNICAL AMENDMENT.-Subsection (c) of such section is amended by striking ‘‘subsection (c)'' and inserting ‘‘subsection (b)''.
SEC. 525. REPEAL OF POST-2007-2008

Intent and implementation are not always the same. The NDAA language has provisions for HPSP students who have prior service to be paid at the higher rate (but still be O-1s). What is not clear is do we pay them the higher rate for the entire time they are in the program or do we just pay that during the 45 day annual training period. What does it mean when they say "officers detailed as medical students". That would imply active duty, they would receive all pay and benefits associated with AD as well as the higher salary. Billets would have to be created and they would ultimately count against end strength. At this time there are no such billets and I do not see BUPERS being enthusiastic about creating them. Big Navy will have to provide guidance. .
 
So if I was prior enlisted completed IRR became a civilian signed up for HPSP do I still get this? Man Congress sure knows how to make things overly complex and ambiguous.
 
It almost sounds too good to be true. :D
 
NavyFP said:
Intent and implementation are not always the same. The NDAA language has provisions for HPSP students who have prior service to be paid at the higher rate (but still be O-1s). What is not clear is do we pay them the higher rate for the entire time they are in the program or do we just pay that during the 45 day annual training period. What does it mean when they say "officers detailed as medical students". That would imply active duty, they would receive all pay and benefits associated with AD as well as the higher salary. Billets would have to be created and they would ultimately count against end strength. At this time there are no such billets and I do not see BUPERS being enthusiastic about creating them. Big Navy will have to provide guidance.
Because this part of the NDAA 2008 under discussion only amends the relevant sections of USC Title 10, it is very clear that prior service HPSP will only receive the increased pay when on their ADTs. Doing otherwise would create direct competition with and reduce the value of attending USUHS. Keep in mind that the increase only applies to base pay, and doesn't include allowances or bonuses.

As far as the "Commissioned officer detailed as a student at a medical school", that never happens nowadays. Such a program would be similar to the FLEP for military lawyers. Because of USUHS and the HPSP, the services do not offer this option for active duty to obtain a medical education, and I'm not aware of how long ago any such program may have existed. Also, Title 10 of the USC provides that members of these programs do not count against authorized strength.

libo1369 said:
So if I was prior enlisted completed IRR became a civilian signed up for HPSP do I still get this? Man Congress sure knows how to make things overly complex and ambiguous.
Assuming that your base pay as an enlisted member was higher than what you would receive as an O-1, then yes, you would receive it. If not, this offers no benefit to you that you would not have received before the NDAA 2008 was passed.
 
I know I originated this post, but I have to come back and correct myself... the Mil-med grapevine around here (DC) has confirmed that the major change in the NDAA was for prior service at USUHS... not HPSP. If you look at the actual bill (which I admittedly did not before posting) you can see that much of the change only applies to USUHS and not HPSP (i.e. active duty status while at medical school). HPSP students are still IRR until they serve their active time, thus, the pay increase does not apply to them.

It is a GREAT deal for priors attending USUHS though, full base pay as an O-3 (or whatever) is incredible - compared to getting O-1 pay for 4 years. As far as bonuses, line officers transferring to med corps are giving up any warfare qualification associated bonus anyway.

The only problem I see is that I am sure that BUPERS and DFAS will calculate BAH allowance based on your actual rank - O-1. Bummer, but the extra pay for rank and years of service are enough to make up for it. It is going to be strange being an Ensign again...haha.
 
I know I originated this post, but I have to come back and correct myself... the Mil-med grapevine around here (DC) has confirmed that the major change in the NDAA was for prior service at USUHS... not HPSP. If you look at the actual bill (which I admittedly did not before posting) you can see that much of the change only applies to USUHS and not HPSP (i.e. active duty status while at medical school). HPSP students are still IRR until they serve their active time, thus, the pay increase does not apply to them.

It is a GREAT deal for priors attending USUHS though, full base pay as an O-3 (or whatever) is incredible - compared to getting O-1 pay for 4 years. As far as bonuses, line officers transferring to med corps are giving up any warfare qualification associated bonus anyway.

The only problem I see is that I am sure that BUPERS and DFAS will calculate BAH allowance based on your actual rank - O-1. Bummer, but the extra pay for rank and years of service are enough to make up for it. It is going to be strange being an Ensign again...haha.

There is actually language for both. I doubt it will only count for base pay. More instructions will come. Let's wait and see where the actual chips fall.
 
If I was enlisted for 5 years, I would start as an O-1E with 5 years, right? I know this bill doesn't address that, but just for my own clarification...
 
If I was enlisted for 5 years, I would start as an O-1E with 5 years, right? I know this bill doesn't address that, but just for my own clarification...

If you are talking about what your LES would look like during school then you've got it right.
 
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I know I originated this post, but I have to come back and correct myself... the Mil-med grapevine around here (DC) has confirmed that the major change in the NDAA was for prior service at USUHS... not HPSP. If you look at the actual bill (which I admittedly did not before posting) you can see that much of the change only applies to USUHS and not HPSP (i.e. active duty status while at medical school). HPSP students are still IRR until they serve their active time, thus, the pay increase does not apply to them.

It is a GREAT deal for priors attending USUHS though, full base pay as an O-3 (or whatever) is incredible - compared to getting O-1 pay for 4 years. As far as bonuses, line officers transferring to med corps are giving up any warfare qualification associated bonus anyway.

The only problem I see is that I am sure that BUPERS and DFAS will calculate BAH allowance based on your actual rank - O-1. Bummer, but the extra pay for rank and years of service are enough to make up for it. It is going to be strange being an Ensign again...haha.

If that is the case, I seriously doubt USUHS will ever again take anyone with a significant amount of military time/rank. For instance, I was an O-4 > 12 when I applied to USUHS. With DC BAH included, I think I would make about three times as much as a single O-1 <2yrs service.
 
The new law applies to all programs in order to provide parity across the board for prior service members transitioning to the MC.

The big question is if allowances will be included. The BAH regs seem to indicate the pay/allowance is based upon rank. Further guidance will clarify this situation.

I think USUHS will take prior service qualified apps, regardless. The pay change is actually appropriate given the our prior service. The DOD needs Docs and why not draw from within.

Also there is suppose to be a new program, similar to the JAG prgram for detailing officers to MED School, hence the other verbage.

Enjoy the extra bucks, everyone earned it. Fingers crossed for allowances.
 
The new law applies to all programs in order to provide parity across the board for prior service members transitioning to the MC.

The big question is if allowances will be included. The BAH regs seem to indicate the pay/allowance is based upon rank. Further guidance will clarify this situation.

I think USUHS will take prior service qualified apps, regardless. The pay change is actually appropriate given the our prior service. The DOD needs Docs and why not draw from within.

Also there is suppose to be a new program, similar to the JAG prgram for detailing officers to MED School, hence the other verbage.

Enjoy the extra bucks, everyone earned it. Fingers crossed for allowances.

BAH is based on rank, dependant status and location.

Both true, but there is something called Save Pay which keeps you at the highest pay level attained. Not sure if it will apply in this situation though.
 
If anyone hears how BAH will be handled, please post. Thanks!
 
Son of a bitch, I lost $2400 a month for 4 years and had $0 paychecks for several months until the freaking AF could fix my pay to reflect a drop to
O-1. Oh well. good on those who are coming in after NDAA 2008.

Cheetah
 
Just interviewed at USUHS and have been following this closely. The admissions officer there says that USUHS students with prior service save their base pay, but earn BAH at the O1 rate. She also informed me that "save pay" for HPSP will only apply during AT, otherwise they are IR during the academic year and receive the (recently increased) stipend of ~$1900 per month.
 
NavalAv8r,

Thanks for the info and good luck!

By the way, where are you coming from? I'm a VQ NFO headed to USUHS this summer.
 
Sputnik34,

I'm a VAQ NFO, currently a ROTC instructor but just back from a 10 month IA to Baghdad. Trying to decide between USUHS and Wisconsin, leaning toward HSCP at Wisconsin at the moment.
 
Nata:

IL residency is nice. I used the IVG during medical school. It covers 8 semesters of undergrad OR grad school:


Veterans' Grant. The Illinois Veteran Grant (IVG) Program pays tuition and certain fees at all Illinois state-supported colleges, universities and community colleges for Illinois residents. An individual must:
· be a veteran; and
· reside in Illinois six months before entering the service; and
· have at least one full year of active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces which includes veterans who were assigned to active duty in a foreign country in a time of hostilities in that country, regardless of length of service
· return to Illinois within six months of discharge from the service
Applications and additional information are available from field offices of the Illinois Department of Veterans' Affairs, college financial aid offices or the Illinois Student Assistance Commission, 1755 Lake Cook Road, Deerfield, 60015, telephone 847/948-8550 or 800/899-ISAC, web site address www.collegezone.com.

Spang
 
So the NDAA was passed (yeah) but never funded (boo). So it is now at the Pentagon level JAG trying to figure out how to fund it. This part of the bill can always be amended (bye-bye) without CNN taking an interest -- hard to feel bad for those of us getting a funded medical education not getting our pay raise! So anybody at USUHS who is telling you what your pay will be based on this legislation is speculating. As anyone who has been in the military knows, until it is in writing -- don't count on it. And in this case, we need another "writing" to make it actually happen. Also, if you look at the legislation closely, the only thing written in is for base pay not benefits (i.e., BAH). Still a better deal than being an O-1 for 4 years, but a technicality that matters for those of us going to USUHS and living in the DC area where housing is expensive. As to how I know, I am getting ready to graduate from USUHS and have been following this issue closely for obvious reason. No one in the chain of command could handle our pay problems when we were recommissioned at lower rank even though the school has been around for >30 years -- so now this legislation is really testing the officers on the ROAD program.
 
Does anybody know of a targeted date when this may actually be funded and become a reality? There are alot of programs that have been passed by congress, by the DoD cannnot fund them.
 
Does anyone know how the selection criteria differs between current AD applicants and civilian applicants for HPSP?

I keep reading that people have already gotten scholarship offers from recruiters, while Mr. Kush at the Air Force Personnel Center has told me the board won't discuss my acceptance until mid April.

I have a 3.3 UGPA with 29 MCAT. I've been accepted to the Medical University of South Carolina. I've been an AD Air Force officer for 2 years and will have good references from military officers. What are my chances for acceptance to HPSP? Would I have a better chance of acceptance at USUHS?

I also have thought about applying for a service transfer to the Army HPSP from the Air Force, but Mr. Kush told me that was not possible. Does anyone know otherwise?

All help is appreciated!
 
I read the directive, and spoke with my officer recruiter. He knows nothing of this. But, I'm AD w/3 yrs service enlisted. Do I get a promotion to O-1 or keep E5? Does anyone know yet if this is applicable to all year or just summers?

(keeping my fingers crossed for all year, and either O-1 or E5 is GREAT with me!)

SCTX
 
Does anyone know how the selection criteria differs between current AD applicants and civilian applicants for HPSP?

I keep reading that people have already gotten scholarship offers from recruiters, while Mr. Kush at the Air Force Personnel Center has told me the board won't discuss my acceptance until mid April.

I have a 3.3 UGPA with 29 MCAT. I've been accepted to the Medical University of South Carolina. I've been an AD Air Force officer for 2 years and will have good references from military officers. What are my chances for acceptance to HPSP? Would I have a better chance of acceptance at USUHS?

I also have thought about applying for a service transfer to the Army HPSP from the Air Force, but Mr. Kush told me that was not possible. Does anyone know otherwise?

All help is appreciated!

YOu have a much easier time getting accepted into the HPSP program. They are not filling their scholarships over the last few years for all the services. They are gving HPSP scholarships to students with low-twenties on the MCAT, provided they have been accepted into a school. So if you are allready accepted into a program, you jsut need to hook up with a recruiter and do it.

And you can transfer to the ARMY, you just need to submit an interservice transfer from the Air Force to the Army. I am Navy and was early selected for the HPSP, but I am on the waitlist at USUHS. I am still getting recruiting emails from the ARMY for the HPSP and they said that interservice transfer is no biggie at all.
 
I read the directive, and spoke with my officer recruiter. He knows nothing of this. But, I'm AD w/3 yrs service enlisted. Do I get a promotion to O-1 or keep E5? Does anyone know yet if this is applicable to all year or just summers?

(keeping my fingers crossed for all year, and either O-1 or E5 is GREAT with me!)

SCTX

If you are talking about the HPSP program, then you will be commissioned as an O-1 w/3 years of service and you will be paid as such during your AT's.
 
The impact of the NDAA is unclear. I suspect prior service in HPSP may get prior pay while on AT, but don't know about the rest of the time. If they do, great. Congress is rarely generous.

NavyFP - Have you heard anything more/or clearer guidance on this topic as of late?
 
NavyFP - Have you heard anything more/or clearer guidance on this topic as of late?

Guidance will be that it will only apply to the 45 days. BAH is the current murkiness. You will be an ENS but your prior BAH may be higher and they may throw in the higher rate.
 
Guidance will be that it will only apply to the 45 days. BAH is the current murkiness. You will be an ENS but your prior BAH may be higher and they may throw in the higher rate.

Never clear guidance...love it. So, hypothetically a prior service LT (03) would get LT pay, but get treated like an Ensign since that is what they would be wearing on their collar? Also love it. The thought of being an 0-1 again just brings joy to my life.
 
Never clear guidance...love it. So, hypothetically a prior service LT (03) would get LT pay, but get treated like an Ensign since that is what they would be wearing on their collar? Also love it. The thought of being an 0-1 again just brings joy to my life.

I guess 6 years would be the maximum anyone would be able to be an ENS. (2 years normal time and 4 years HPSP)
 
The law was passed. This is not a funding issue it is law. We are entitled to basic pay at the highest rank held. I doubt we will recieve the BAH, CDR Mc Clean from Navy HPSP said as much.

Our pay is accounted for by the law's ammendment to Title 10. We earned it. enjoy. The issue is educating the freak'n pay clerks.
 
The law was passed. This is not a funding issue it is law. We are entitled to basic pay at the highest rank held. I doubt we will recieve the BAH, CDR Mc Clean from Navy HPSP said as much.

Our pay is accounted for by the law's ammendment to Title 10. We earned it. enjoy. The issue is educating the freak'n pay clerks.

Easier said than done. Do you have a reference for the approval? I just got word yesterday, from the army side (not a recruiter, one of the admin folks in DC that manage HPSP) that it still hasn't been signed....maybe it has to be funded by each of the services?


We earned it.

Amen.
 
So what's the logic in making everybody wear butter bars ??? If you're getting paid as an 0-3, why shouldn't you be wearing railroad tracks???

Are they worried that some 0-3 student is going to try to pull rank on an 0-1? If that actually happens, the 0-3 should be laughed outta the room.

In any case, being that all of the students are in a 'student status', there should be no superior/subordinate relationship amongst any of the students, regardless of what rank they're wearing.
 
So what's the logic in making everybody wear butter bars ??? If you're getting paid as an 0-3, why shouldn't you be wearing railroad tracks???

Are they worried that some 0-3 student is going to try to pull rank on an 0-1? If that actually happens, the 0-3 should be laughed outta the room.

In any case, being that all of the students are in a 'student status', there should be no superior/subordinate relationship amongst any of the students, regardless of what rank they're wearing.

The law requires that all medical students in USUHS or on HPSP be ENS. Pay is inconsiquential to the rank you wear.
 
So what's the logic in making everybody wear butter bars ??? If you're getting paid as an 0-3, why shouldn't you be wearing railroad tracks???

Are they worried that some 0-3 student is going to try to pull rank on an 0-1? If that actually happens, the 0-3 should be laughed outta the room.

In any case, being that all of the students are in a 'student status', there should be no superior/subordinate relationship amongst any of the students, regardless of what rank they're wearing.

Generally the 0-1s are the ones that get silly about the rank thing over the enlisted side. They are straightened out by the time they become 0-2s. 0-3s you will find are generally laid back and comfortable about their rank and life in general...comes with the experience of being in for a while.

I look at it like any other type of training, when I went to airborne school, we had everything from 01 to 05 on the officer side of things...there was never any ordering around or anything like that. We all understood we were in the same boat...so it is just the way the law is written. We will all wear 0-1 rank...not a big deal.
 
We will all wear 0-1 rank...not a big deal.

I agree, I'm an 0-3, sometimes I worry I'm too laid back and don't pull rank enough. Anyway, you're right that it's not a big deal. USUHS is still one of the best deals that our gov't has to offer, if you ask me.

Is anybody on this forum actually at USUHS, currently? If so, what is the USUHS staff telling you about pay?
 
I agree, I'm an 0-3, sometimes I worry I'm too laid back and don't pull rank enough. Anyway, you're right that it's not a big deal. USUHS is still one of the best deals that our gov't has to offer, if you ask me.

Is anybody on this forum actually at USUHS, currently? If so, what is the USUHS staff telling you about pay?

You may not be too laid back, you may just be a good leader. Good leaders don't need to "pull rank" or even worse use their boss' rank to get things done.

A good leader has respect of those he/she works with and is able to influence change or action without saying things like "listen here..I am CPT and you will do my bidding."

Although I don't know from personal experience in the military medicine machine, from what I have heard here and elsewhere, many military physicians are generally lacking in management and leadership skills. This would hold true of new physicians on the civilian side as well...it is an experience issue. However, since the rank is thrust upon you upon graduating you generally don't get that time as an 0-1, 0-2 when you are abused and figure out what is to be a leader, what it is to make leadership mistakes, etc. You haven't been seasoned enough to fill the leadership rolls you are given. Will be interesting to see how it really is.
 
Hi,

So, after reading this thread and asking around, it appears that the NDAA 2008 is in full effect. Prior service students at USUHS are getting paid according to their highest rank/years of service (with respect to basic pay only). This is great, and if I attend USUHS, I'm gonna need that pay if I want to keep my house, be able to support my family, live somewhat comfortably (not luxuriously), and put a little away for savings.

My question is: Can anyone comment on the permanency of NDAA2008? (yes, please pull out your crystal balls) Do you think this pay system is likely to become permanent, could be changed (especially with a new administration), could even get better (allowing for last-rank-BAH), ????

I don't want to be in a situation where I'm halfway thru med school and get my pay reverted back to O-1 pay. I'm not money grubbing here! I'm just concerned about keeping up with my mortgage and making sure my wife/son can live comfortably. I myself am frugile as hell . . . Thanks for the input!
 
Who knows. But I wouldn't bet on a democratic administration doing the military any favors. Reference: Carter, Clinton

If you want to trim the fat and redistribute the wealth, the military is probably a good place to start. We will see how the medical corps trys to hold its own against some of the other branches as they fight out budgets and bennies.
 
Hi,

So, after reading this thread and asking around, it appears that the NDAA 2008 is in full effect. Prior service students at USUHS are getting paid according to their highest rank/years of service (with respect to basic pay only). This is great, and if I attend USUHS, I'm gonna need that pay if I want to keep my house, be able to support my family, live somewhat comfortably (not luxuriously), and put a little away for savings.

My question is: Can anyone comment on the permanency of NDAA2008? (yes, please pull out your crystal balls) Do you think this pay system is likely to become permanent, could be changed (especially with a new administration), could even get better (allowing for last-rank-BAH), ????

I don't want to be in a situation where I'm halfway thru med school and get my pay reverted back to O-1 pay. I'm not money grubbing here! I'm just concerned about keeping up with my mortgage and making sure my wife/son can live comfortably. I myself am frugile as hell . . . Thanks for the input!


Are there any prior service officers out there doing HPSP that have been paid as an O2 or higher while doing their ADT time?

Just checking in on this one since all of my stipend pay stubs show me as an 0-1 again, I figure there will be some sort of hoops to pass through to get paid as an 0-3 while on ADT.

Thx
 
Are there any prior service officers out there doing HPSP that have been paid as an O2 or higher while doing their ADT time?

Just checking in on this one since all of my stipend pay stubs show me as an 0-1 again, I figure there will be some sort of hoops to pass through to get paid as an 0-3 while on ADT.

Thx

I forget which service you are in...As far as the Navy is concerned, I had to send OH an email for them to put me on the "save pay" list (which is then forwarded to DFAS) since this is not automatic even after you give them your DD214. Once I did that, I got a nice lump sum payment after my ADTs which made up the difference between O1 pay and my previous grade. I'll let you know how it goes once I start internship this June; because it apparently applies then too.:)
 
Hey all, I was a prior service officer for a little bit. I did ADT last summer (2008) and was paid at O-1 rate. Last week I received an amendment to that ADT order for a higher pay grade and money owed to me by the US Gov.

Good luck.
 
Hey all, I was a prior service officer for a little bit. I did ADT last summer (2008) and was paid at O-1 rate. Last week I received an amendment to that ADT order for a higher pay grade and money owed to me by the US Gov.

Good luck.

I received my amended orders also from last summer for prior service rank and years of service. I'll know something for certain at the end of FEB. PM if someone wants verification in 26 days.
 
Has anyone in Air Force HPSP received pay at a higher rank than 01? I just received orders for an ADT (starting 1 Feb 09) and it shows my rank as 2nd Lt and nothing on my orders indicates I would get paid at a higher rank (I seperated as an O4). I tried to talk to the folks at AFIT (the organization that publishes our orders) and no one had a clue what I was talking about.
 
The short answer is no. Indianapolis has not figured out how to pay basic pay at the higher level for prior-service HPSP/USUHS students because they are still on their rolls as a 2LT or Ensign. So, since there are not a lot of people in this category, they may just be ignoring it.
 
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