For-Profit schools

[Anicetus]

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This is mainly a question about schools like RVUCOM.

What is so bad about being a for-profit school? I don't really understand the label fully so if someone can explain the pros and cons of this that would be great.

Thanks.

 

[LaughingMan]

This is mainly a question about schools like RVUCOM.

What is so bad about being a for-profit school? I don't really understand the label fully so if someone can explain the pros and cons of this that would be great.

Thanks.

Whats bad? Nothing at all--the people who are opposed to them seem to give emotional answers.

Earning a profit has driven some of the greatest successes of humanity--but god forbid they try to educate students more efficiently.

With that said--do we really need more schools? More DO schools should not be approved.

 

[HalfListic]

Nothing bad...there was worry that they would be discriminated against for GME, but they have done well in the match year after year. They have a great campus, great location, and pretty good resources too.


Any school that looks down on them is very hypocritical...the amount of profit the "non-profit" schools and hospitals take in is ridiculous.

 

[Mosonik]

This is mainly a question about schools like RVUCOM.

What is so bad about being a for-profit school? I don't really understand the label fully so if someone can explain the pros and cons of this that would be great.

Thanks.

Well, time has shown the answer (so far) is... nothing, or very little. The school is young but barring a few knuckle-heads in their leadership (many non-profit's have these too though) the school has proven to produce a very solid program and graduates.

If that's the region you want to be in or something about the school is a good fit for you by all means pursue it! I personally wasn't interested and didn't want to have to deal with controversy and defending my education, as pointless as that sounds, narrowing down ultimately can be like splitting hairs.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Nothing bad...there was worry that they would be discriminated against for GME, but they have done well in the match year after year.

Yeah... no they haven't. This past match was mediocre. The one last year was horrendous.

I wouldn't say they have done well in a single match.

 

[HalfListic]

Yeah... no they haven't. This past match was mediocre. The one last year was horrendous.

I wouldn't say they have done well in a single match.

yeah, I remember you sharing that opinion in their thread last year. I remember quite a few people dis-agreeing with you, and really just the normal trolls agreeing.

Now, you aren't a troll in my book, so I dont discount your posts automatically. Sometimes you are pretty heavily biased against DO's so I also take your comments with a healthy dash of salt.


Having said that, and having looked at their matches, I think its actually more fair to say that they have done pretty well in their matches. They have a good spread of specialties represented, though I know you'll say that the programs they matched were the worst in the world.

Well, their students have matched EM, Ortho, gen surgery...a lot of the rest of the popular stuff and will be practicing that medicine/surgery. Not so horrible a life if you ask me.


edit: I wonder what you think about their for profit status and how you compare that to the big bucks made at University Affiliated academic hospitals and schools

 

[Roxas]

I have to laugh at this thread because people are saying what I've been thinking for a long time. Yes RVU is for profit, but noone who thinks that is so terrible can actually tell you why its terrible. Is it the administration's responsiveness to students?? Is it that they just admit to being for profit (which I've read is mainly for tax reasons) instead of being wolves dressed in sheep's clothing like the "non-profit" schools that seem to take just as much money as everyone else?

 

[armpitsOFmight]

I can't wait for that for-profit allopathic school to open!!!

 

[Goro]

My two cents: profits would take a higher standing than student education. I can imagine someone saying "you want to do X for the students? How much will that increase our bottom line"?

This is mainly a question about schools like RVUCOM.

What is so bad about being a for-profit school? I don't really understand the label fully so if someone can explain the pros and cons of this that would be great.

Thanks.

 

[Roxas]

My two cents: profits would take a higher standing than student education. I can imagine someone saying "you want to do X for the students? How much will that increase our bottom line"?

Non profit schools don't do that already? It would seem that it is in the for profit schools best interest to keep their students happy, in order to build/sustain reputation so students will want to keep going there.

 

[sylvanthus]

I was against the whole "for profit" thing as well, but looking at it now, RVU has given students at their school more resources and had better communication with students than my "non-profit" school ever did.

 

[LaughingMan]

My two cents: profits would take a higher standing than student education. I can imagine someone saying "you want to do X for the students? How much will that increase our bottom line"?

This is a valid argument.

Non profit schools don't do that already? It would seem that it is in the for profit schools best interest to keep their students happy, in order to build/sustain reputation so students will want to keep going there.

Agreed--I think non-profits do this to an extent as well.

Though I should add--my experience in business comes from a complete different set of operations--and I have no experience/knowledge on the workings of a school.

 

[Roxas]

Caribbean schools are all "for-profit". We all know what kinds of practices they run.

Do you honestly think that is the only difference between carib MD and US MD? Wow. Like I stated earlier, whether you are admittedly for profit or not, people are making money off of medical schools, and the same decision making goes into that regardless of your status. The interests being protected are the same, selfish or not.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I have to laugh at this thread because people are saying what I've been thinking for a long time. Yes RVU is for profit, but noone who thinks that is so terrible can actually tell you why its terrible. Is it the administration's responsiveness to students?? Is it that they just admit to being for profit (which I've read is mainly for tax reasons) instead of being wolves dressed in sheep's clothing like the "non-profit" schools that seem to take just as much money as everyone else?

because the LCME doesn't allow it

Did I win?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

i think the main concern is that throughout the rest of America, the only other majorly known for profit schools are University of Phoenix, Devry, ITT, Caribbean MD and other various degree mills. Nothing is inherently bad about them but when all the other models are so poor, people automatically equate RVU to what they know. That doesn't mean RVU is, or even will be, on the same level as University of Phoenix and there is a good argument on why for profit schools can be better. From what I understand, RVU is a decent school and hopefully they always will be.

 

[Colodostudent]

because the LCME doesn't allow it

Did I win?

...

 

[Colodostudent]

because the LCME doesn't allow it

Did I win?

Actually, no you didn't win. There is now a proposal in front of the LCME in terms of for profit schools:
Proposed Deletion of Accreditation Standard IS-2

The LCME recommends that the following accreditation standard be deleted: IS-2. The parent institution of a medical education program should have not-for-profit status.

Background and Rationale
The LCME recommendation follows from the premise that accreditation decisions must be based on the ability of an institution to meet accreditation standards and not on its form of governance.

Written comments may be e-mailed to [email protected] until April 23, 2013 and will become part of the hearing record. Anonymous comments will not be considered. Public comment on the deletion of IS-2 will be taken at the following regional annual meetings of the AAMC Group on Educational Affairs (GEA).

Central GEA Regional Meeting
March 20 - 24, 2013, Cincinnati, OH

Southern GEA/GSA/OSR Joint Regional Conference
April 18 - 20, 2013, Savannah, GA

Northeastern GEA Educational Retreat Spring Meeting
April 12 - 14, 2013, New York, NY

Western GEA/GSA/OSR Joint Meeting
May 4 - 7, 2013, Irvine, CA

 

[HalfListic]

Caribbean schools are all "for-profit". We all know what kinds of practices they run.

i think the main concern is that throughout the rest of America, the only other majorly known for profit schools are University of Phoenix, Devry, ITT, Caribbean MD and other various degree mills. Nothing is inherently bad about them but when all the other models are so poor, people automatically equate RVU to what they know. That doesn't mean RVU is, or even will be, on the same level as University of Phoenix and there is a good argument on why for profit schools can be better. From what I understand, RVU is a decent school and hopefully they always will be.

yeah, this may be a reason why people think that. But its an uninformed reason, so I cant really give it much value. There is no real similarity between ITT tech and RVU medical school.

Really, this is mostly the establishment trying to block out the different thing...which happens for everything. Having a mock offense to being for profit is just a political move to sway popular opinion and is pretty deceptive, if you think about it.



All schools are driven by money and recognition. As are hospitals, drug companies, etc. The world would be a much better place if this werent so, but Id love to see a good argument that shows otherwise.

Oh well

 

[NontradCA]

School tuition and fees are already sticking it to students. I'd be a lamb if I were to think that for profits are evil.

Goro, how can you charge students 40+k and then talk about for profit institutions not caring about students?

 

[HalfListic]

The thing is, nobody directly pockets the money that hospitals make. That money goes to resources/technology/construction etc. So I don't get where those arguments are coming from.

Wouldn't that be awesome...but no, look at the salaries/bonuses etc of hospital CEO's and other higher administration.

Time had a great article about if you have access to it. Called something like why medical bills are bankrupting us, or something like that. It's crazy how much profit is taken in. It's crazy how high salaries are for the few on top...

 

[Roxas]

Wouldn't that be awesome...but no, look at the salaries/bonuses etc of hospital CEO's and other higher administration.

Time had a great article about if you have access to it. Called something like why medical bills are bankrupting us, or something like that. It's crazy how much profit is taken in. It's crazy how high salaries are for the few on top...

Please don't let this thread turn into that occupy wall street garbage...haha. I'm glad you brought that up and that is my point, the money that "non-profit" schools/hospitals bring in seems to find its way into someones pockets eventually.

As I mentioned earlier, RVU owns up to it, while the rest of these schools are hiding it. Have to at least give them props for that. Plus every student I've ever talked to that goes/has gone there says the administration is incredibly responsive to students, and they loved it. All the issues that they have are typical for a newer school.

 

[HalfListic]

Please don't let this thread turn into that occupy wall street garbage...haha. I'm glad you brought that up and that is my point, the money that "non-profit" schools/hospitals bring in seems to find its way into someones pockets eventually.

As I mentioned earlier, RVU owns up to it, while the rest of these schools are hiding it. Have to at least give them props for that. Plus every student I've ever talked to that goes/has gone there says the administration is incredibly responsive to students, and they loved it. All the issues that they have are typical for a newer school.

I think people should be more up in as about executive salaries, raising tuition, ambiguous healthcare costs and the like. They are all similar problems.

And yeah, discriminating a school solely for being for profit. It's just a deterrent from actually issues.

So...OCCUPY HOSPITALS!! Haha 😉

 

[Darthberghen]

The thing is, nobody directly pockets the money that hospitals make. That money goes to resources/technology/construction etc. So I don't get where those arguments are coming from.

Hate to rupture your bubble:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti...pital-ceos-are-among-the-nations-highest-paid
Chicago's nonprofit hospital CEOs are among the nation's highest paid

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ceo-pay-its-good-be-health-care
CEO Pay: It's good to be in health care
Associated Press
May 23 11:33 AM EDT
Here's a look at median CEO pay by industry last year, as calculated by executive pay research firm Equilar. For the fourth time in five years, health care CEOs got the most pay and utilities CEOs got the least.
—Health care: $11.1 million

 

[Roxas]

I think people should be more up in as about executive salaries, raising tuition, ambiguous healthcare costs and the like. They are all similar problems.

And yeah, discriminating a school solely for being for profit. It's just a deterrent from actually issues.

So...OCCUPY HOSPITALS!! Haha 😉

I completely agree. Speaking of ambiguous healthcare costs, I had an ER doc who taught one of my classes show us some research saying that about 50% of healthcare costs are due to completely unnecessary defensive medicine. That seems like such an incredible waste for all parties involved.

 

[Roxas]

Hate to rupture your bubble:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti...pital-ceos-are-among-the-nations-highest-paid
Chicago's nonprofit hospital CEOs are among the nation's highest paid

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ceo-pay-its-good-be-health-care
CEO Pay: It's good to be in health care
Associated Press
May 23 11:33 AM EDT
Here's a look at median CEO pay by industry last year, as calculated by executive pay research firm Equilar. For the fourth time in five years, health care CEOs got the most pay and utilities CEOs got the least.
—Health care: $11.1 million

This. Not to mention Chicago is already an incredibly sketchy place

 

[HalfListic]

Hate to rupture your bubble:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti...pital-ceos-are-among-the-nations-highest-paid
Chicago's nonprofit hospital CEOs are among the nation's highest paid

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ceo-pay-its-good-be-health-care
CEO Pay: It's good to be in health care
Associated Press
May 23 11:33 AM EDT
Here's a look at median CEO pay by industry last year, as calculated by executive pay research firm Equilar. For the fourth time in five years, health care CEOs got the most pay and utilities CEOs got the least.
—Health care: $11.1 million

👍 unfortunate truth

I completely agree. Speaking of ambiguous healthcare costs, I had an ER doc who taught one of my classes show us some research saying that about 50% of healthcare costs are due to completely unnecessary defensive medicine. That seems like such an incredible waste for all parties involved.

also, the public has no idea what their healthcare costs are, and if they are negotiable. (which they are. Its fine if you have healthcare, but if you don't, even necessary healthcare can ruin you financially. I dont want social medicine by any means, but I do want a system that is clear and honest.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Actually, no you didn't win. There is now a proposal in front of the LCME in terms of for profit schools:
Proposed Deletion of Accreditation Standard IS-2

The LCME recommends that the following accreditation standard be deleted: IS-2. The parent institution of a medical education program should have not-for-profit status.

Background and Rationale
The LCME recommendation follows from the premise that accreditation decisions must be based on the ability of an institution to meet accreditation standards and not on its form of governance.

Written comments may be e-mailed to [email protected] until April 23, 2013 and will become part of the hearing record. Anonymous comments will not be considered. Public comment on the deletion of IS-2 will be taken at the following regional annual meetings of the AAMC Group on Educational Affairs (GEA).

Central GEA Regional Meeting
March 20 - 24, 2013, Cincinnati, OH

Southern GEA/GSA/OSR Joint Regional Conference
April 18 - 20, 2013, Savannah, GA

Northeastern GEA Educational Retreat Spring Meeting
April 12 - 14, 2013, New York, NY

Western GEA/GSA/OSR Joint Meeting
May 4 - 7, 2013, Irvine, CA

Lol. Wasted sarcasm.

 

[edgerock24]

For profit schools #1 priority is to make money. This MAY mean that for profit medical schools have less support for students when compared to nonprofit institutions.

However, once you graduate and get into residency (which may be harder for some for profit school students), it doesn't really matter where you went to school. And yes, this includes being a graduate from the Caribbean.

 

[circulus vitios]

My two cents: profits would take a higher standing than student education. I can imagine someone saying "you want to do X for the students? How much will that increase our bottom line"?

Kind of like how non-profit schools build exorbitant facilities and then pass the cost on to students in the form of higher tuition and fees, right?

 

[HalfListic]

Lol. Wasted sarcasm.

haha...my thought too when I saw the response. Sarcasm is always a gamble in mixed company 😉

 

[HalfListic]

For profit schools #1 priority is to make money. This MAY mean that for profit medical schools have less support for students when compared to nonprofit institutions.

However, once you graduate and get into residency (which may be harder for some for profit school students), it doesn't really matter where you went to school. And yes, this includes being a graduate from the Caribbean.

You dont know a schools priority based on its for profit status alone. Also, to put it another way, a non-profit hospital's #1 administrative responsibility is to make money, which, by the way, isnt inherently evil either.

 

[Roxas]

You dont know a schools priority based on its for profit status alone. Also, to put it another way, a non-profit hospital's #1 administrative responsibility is to make money, which, by the way, isnt inherently evil either.

👍

Seriously people, welcome to economics and capitalism. It's the reason we even have access of most of the stuff we do today.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

haha...my thought too when I saw the response. Sarcasm is always a gamble in mixed company 😉

Very true. We laugh together or I laugh alone...either way I'm amused. 😎

 

[chillBob]

I will give my 2 cents on what is being discussed. First this is a completely opinionated topic. Are for-profit schools bad? That is like saying “All Fortune 500 companies are good/bad.” Not all institutions are the same. Like many people on here, I see the proliferation of medical schools as more a threat and that is a completely different question. I am personally applying to RVU and from what I read here on SDN many of its students paint a rosier picture for it then numerous other colleges. Other schools may not be for-profit, but why would they start a medical school? There is money to be made, just because you label something not for-profit doesn’t mean somebody isn’t making money. Why do you think medical students pay on average ~$50000/yr (tuition)? Why does a podiatry student pay ~$30000/yr? I am sure there are numerous reasons, but I can tell you most of the money is probably going into teachers/administrators pockets i.e. us(students) are willing to pay that much.
There is a reason why LCME and COCA have seen unprecedented amount of medical schools open in the last decade we are in a recision people are making money doing this compared to doing other jobs. When for two decades prior there were only small increases. If you want to see the underlying problem with mismanagement of new schools/increase in number of students graduating read up on forums from current law/pharmacy/veterinarian/podiatry graduates. I believe we needed more medical schools in the nation, but we need to stop/slow the growth for now and see the outcome. We did have nearly 30% of doctors being educated outside the US. But you might be thinking I read constantly we need 200000 new doctors by year 20XX. Remember that number is a lobbying tool based on who knows calculation. There should never be more students graduating then residencies, and there should never be more residencies then jobs available. The sad part is many people in senior leadership roles don’t care about any of that. Some people are greedy and they will be happy to take your $200,000 give you a MD/DO degree and let you go flip burgers, because they are no jobs/residencies. My view is it doesn’t matter if the school is for-profit or not as long as they are truly looking out for your best interest, i.e. giving you quality education, helping you with good board score, and only taking in the proper amount of students that they know can get residencies.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I will give my 2 cents on what is being discussed. First this is a completely opinionated topic. Are for-profit schools bad? That is like saying “All Fortune 500 companies are good/bad.” Not all institutions are the same. Like many people on here, I see the proliferation of medical schools as more a threat and that is a completely different question. I am personally applying to RVU and from what I read here on SDN many of its students paint a rosier picture for it then numerous other colleges. Other schools may not be for-profit, but why would they start a medical school? There is money to be made, just because you label something not for-profit doesn’t mean somebody isn’t making money. Why do you think medical students pay on average ~$50000/yr (tuition)? Why does a podiatry student pay ~$30000/yr? I am sure there are numerous reasons, but I can tell you most of the money is probably going into teachers/administrators pockets i.e. us(students) are willing to pay that much.
There is a reason why LCME and COCA have seen unprecedented amount of medical schools open in the last decade we are in a recision people are making money doing this compared to doing other jobs. When for two decades prior there were only small increases. If you want to see the underlying problem with mismanagement of new schools/increase in number of students graduating read up on forums from current law/pharmacy/veterinarian/podiatry graduates. I believe we needed more medical schools in the nation, but we need to stop/slow the growth for now and see the outcome. We did have nearly 30% of doctors being educated outside the US. But you might be thinking I read constantly we need 200000 new doctors by year 20XX. Remember that number is a lobbying tool based on who knows calculation. There should never be more students graduating then residencies, and there should never be more residencies then jobs available. The sad part is many people in senior leadership roles don’t care about any of that. Some people are greedy and they will be happy to take your $200,000 give you a MD/DO degree and let you go flip burgers, because they are no jobs/residencies. My view is it doesn’t matter if the school is for-profit or not as long as they are truly looking out for your best interest, i.e. giving you quality education, helping you with good board score, and only taking in the proper amount of students that they know can get residencies.

Grammar. Help.

 

[Instatewaiter]

yeah, I remember you sharing that opinion in their thread last year. I remember quite a few people dis-agreeing with you, and really just the normal trolls agreeing.

The only people who didn't agree with me were the RVU students. Everyone else realized it was a universally ****ty match list. The one this year is better but it is still very mediocre.

Just matching into any DO ortho program doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot when you don't get trained well. The ACGME matches are still mediocre. I have said this a hundred times- just matching into an EM residency doesn't mean it is a good residency.

Wouldn't that be awesome...but no, look at the salaries/bonuses etc of hospital CEO's and other higher administration.

Time had a great article about if you have access to it. Called something like why medical bills are bankrupting us, or something like that. It's crazy how much profit is taken in. It's crazy how high salaries are for the few on top...

There is a vast difference between a hospital and an educational program being for-profit.

We have a lot of things to go on with regards to for-profit education. All of the for-profit education we currently have in the US are attrocious. ITT tech, DeVry, and the like are all examples.We also have some evidence from actual for-profit medical schools: There were the issues that the flexner uncovered back in the day and the carribean medical schools currently.

Realistically, we don't have a single example of a successful for-profit school... unless you are looking for a school that bilks money out of its students; in that case, there are dozens of successful for-profit schools inside and outside the US.

I think people should be more up in as about executive salaries, raising tuition, ambiguous healthcare costs and the like. They are all similar problems.

And yeah, discriminating a school solely for being for profit. It's just a deterrent from actually issues.

So...OCCUPY HOSPITALS!! Haha 😉

Were all the extra proceeds going into the pockets of the CEOs I would say you have a point. But most of that money is being put back into the not-for-profit schools/hospitals.

 

[cliquesh]

I don't think their match list was that bad. They had people match at Mayo, U mich, BID, washU, UTSW, IU, Baylor. Their IM matches were not "impressive," but their overall list wasn't horrendous for the second graduating class of a DO school.

 

[HalfListic]

The only people who didn't agree with me were the RVU students. Everyone else realized it was a universally ****ty match list. The one this year is better but it is still very mediocre.

Just matching into any DO ortho program doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot when you don't get trained well. The ACGME matches are still mediocre. I have said this a hundred times- just matching into an EM residency doesn't mean it is a good residency.




There is a vast difference between a hospital and an educational program being for-profit.

We have a lot of things to go on with regards to for-profit education. All of the for-profit education we currently have in the US are attrocious. ITT tech, DeVry, and the like are all examples.We also have some evidence from actual for-profit medical schools: There were the issues that the flexner uncovered back in the day and the carribean medical schools currently.

Realistically, we don't have a single example of a successful for-profit school... unless you are looking for a school that bilks money out of its students; in that case, there are dozens of successful for-profit schools inside and outside the US.



Were all the extra proceeds going into the pockets of the CEOs I would say you have a point. But most of that money is being put back into the not-for-profit schools/hospitals.

I wont refute your comments about quality of residency programs. I dont have a ton of knowledge on the subject, and Im sure you are right about different programs having lower quality of training. But, I guess I'd just say that those people who matched at "lesser" Ortho programs probably had zero chances of matching at the great ones from any other school, right...so in the context of how that reflects on the school (which is what we are discussing) I would say that their school gave them an option that they might not have had elsewhere. At the very least it didn't hold them back. Compare them to Kycom or PNWU, non profit DO schools, and Id say their for profit status didnt really hinder them.

Second point...I'm only talking about hospitals that are educational programs, with GME. It might be a bit different, but actually the principles are the same, right? Just seeing if a for profit status would deter from education. it seems like the same principles stand

And again, comparing a for profit medical school to Devry is like saying that all electric cars are slow because you drove a prius, but failed to drive the Tesla model S performance. A tesla is not a prius...RVU is not Devry.




Your last point, about the money being put back into the system I agree with. Lots of money goes back into the system. But not at any higher rate than a well run for profit business...so my point again is, it doesn't seem like being non profit makes them that much more altruistic or center focused than a for profit company would. RVU has some of the TOP tech of all the schools I've seen (besides Marian University), and I guess its because they put money back in the system.

Meanwhile, one of the best DO schools, OSU, nearly lost its teaching hospital and had to suck up government money to stay afloat. Maybe if they rolled out a profit, they wouldnt have to be a tax burden.




Its not all cut and dried, but I still havent seen a fair point that states that being for-profit makes a school fundamentally different than non-profit. Just a false dichotomy that rests on the fact that most schools that have for profit models are lower end, technical schools. Can compare.

 

[chillBob]

I will be the first to say that I am terrible with grammar.

We all have are own opinions.

Instatewaiter, wagering your opinion on for-profit schools based on the match list from RVUCOM is a little nearsighted. First off, are you even comparing it to any other new DO school's match list? The school only has two match lists, because it is that new. I personally don't see the big difference between RVUs , PNWUs, or LMUs match list. All the schools are about the same age.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Instatewaiter, wagering your opinion on for-profit schools based on the match list from RVUCOM is a little nearsighted. First off, are you even comparing it to any other new DO school's match list? The school only has two match lists, because it is that new. I personally don't see the big difference between RVUs , PNWUs, or LMUs match list. All the schools are about the same age.

The match list and the for-profit status are 2 separate things, albeit somehwat interrelated.

Let's look at the match list.

With the exception of anesthesia, which a few decent matches (like most DO schools have), the match list sucks. In anesthesia, BIDMC is a pretty good match and so is Mayo. Michigan is a big name but I don't know much about it for anesthesia.

Rad-onc- a relatively rare DO match, although because of the problems with getting a job after residency, this has become markedly less competitive.

Optho- a decent match given thh fact is an allopathic match but it is in Detroit... so not all that competitive and this is confirmed by the fact that roughly 15% of their residents are international medical graduates. So all in all, a decent match but let's not kid our selves that this is a competitive place to do residency.

Surgical subspecialties are not good markers for a DO school because of the competitive nature of surgery/ortho/ent/NS etc. As expected, these are not strong matches. This would be expected of any DO school. We also don't know if these are prelim spts (a terrible match) or categorical because the match list posted doesn't differentiate.

The best places to look are Medicine and Peds. These are attrocious. Let's look at the medicine match list:

Sky ridge medical center- 186 beds. Is that even a hospital? That is miniscule. You're not exactly getting to see anything interesting there... they'll send it elsewhere. Hell, where I am going for fellowship we have more cardiology beds that that hospital has total beds... what are there 50 medicine beds at Sky Ridge? 4 of the 18 IM matches were here... Terrible

Parkview- 350 beds- still small even for a community training hospital. 6 more of the 18 are going here...

Grandview- 400+ beds. Getting better still. Still small and unfilled. Both 2nd and 3rd year aren't filled... says a lot about a program especially when they only take 5 residents a year.

Danville regional medical center- a whopping 250 beds and in **** county, Virginia (I am from Virginia and love Virginia but Danville sucks).

Swedish medical- 313 beds in Chicago. I bet they see a lot there...

Northside hospital- 227 beds.

Genesys- 410 beds

Texas A&M- 636 beds and level 1 trauma. For reference, most in the medicine world would consider this a mediocre medicine match. This is 3 steps up from the other matches. So, the others above are just bad matches. You can't slice it any other way.


Also notice there is not a single IM match to U Colorado... which is pretty darn close to RVU. Colorado is not even that competitive. This speaks volumes. All in all, this was a worse medicine match list than you find at SGU (carribean). *

 

[circulus vitios]

The match list and the for-profit status are 2 separate things, albeit somehwat interrelated.

Have you ever considered that DO students don't care about meaningless things like academic prestige, and instead chose to apply/interview/match at locations where they wanted to live and practice?

 

[cliquesh]

Have you ever considered that DO students don't care about meaningless things like academic prestige, and instead chose to apply/interview/match at locations where they wanted to live and practice?

I know at my school, some people, especially the IM hopefuls, really enjoyed the places they rotated at during their 3rd year. They ended up ranking our rotation sites first and they didn't really consider any other programs. I would imagine the same thing happened at RVU considering most of those IM matches are part of their core rotations.

Prestige matters, though, especially if you want to do a competitive fellowship.

I think a 350 bed+ hospital is large enough to train a decent community physician.

 

[Goro]

Because professors have to be paid a salary, and universities are expensive to run because they're obligated by accreditation standards to do things, like, I don't know, .... scholarly activity and community service.

Anything we faculty think of that we firmly believe will help the student experience and that can be justified does get done (say, video capture of lectures. Students like it, they're used to that form of learning already, and it doesn't earn the University a dime to have it..but it makes the kids happy), and so it got instituted.

I can't see a for-profit doing something like that because they will always have a customer base, even if they have mediocre board scores and residency matches.

We also institute new programs (just as an example, in PT) not because they'll be profitable, but because there's a need. We never started an OT program, even though that would be profitable, because there's a glut of OT people in our region.

I can't be too sympathetic over medical student debt because you're going to be making at least 2-3x my salary five years out from graduation. Heck, even newly minted residents make more than newly minted post-docs.

Read my post carefully (reading comprehension is an important skill in the medical field): I didn't say that RVU and similar were evil, I just speculated as to why they have such a negative aura about them.

School tuition and fees are already sticking it to students. I'd be a lamb if I were to think that for profits are evil.

Goro, how can you charge students 40+k and then talk about for profit institutions not caring about students?

 

[NontradCA]

Because professors have to be paid a salary, and universities are expensive to run because they're obligated by accreditation standards to do things, like, I don't know, .... scholarly activity and community service.

Anything we faculty think of that we firmly believe will help the student experience and that can be justified does get done (say, video capture of lectures. Students like it, they're used to that form of learning already, and it doesn't earn the University a dime to have it..but it makes the kids happy), and so it got instituted.

I can't see a for-profit doing something like that because they will always have a customer base, even if they have mediocre board scores and residency matches.

We also institute new programs (just as an example, in PT) not because they'll be profitable, but because there's a need. We never started an OT program, even though that would be profitable, because there's a glut of OT people in our region.

I can't be too sympathetic over medical student debt because you're going to be making at least 2-3x my salary five years out from graduation. Heck, even newly minted residents make more than newly minted post-docs.

Read my post carefully (reading comprehension is an important skill in the medical field): I didn't say that RVU and similar were evil, I just speculated as to why they have such a negative aura about them.

I may be mistaken but If their school must oblige to the same accreditation standard (aren't they?-regardless of tax purposes), how are they not promoting scholarly activity and community service?

If the student is their customer, how is it not in their best interest to provide adequate resources for them?

I also noticed that you said mediocre match lists as well a fitting the needs of healthcare. If their mission has "an emphasis on developing primary care physicians to improve medical access for at risk and rural populations", and they're matching people to "podunk" areas, how is this immoral?

I know you did not say immoral either, but I just assume that since you are a school administrator and you're saying they are not in it for the best interest of their students that this is immoral- which is synonymous evil.

 

[Colodostudent]

The match list and the for-profit status are 2 separate things, albeit somehwat interrelated.

Let's look at the match list.

With the exception of anesthesia, which a few decent matches (like most DO schools have), the match list sucks. In anesthesia, BIDMC is a pretty good match and so is Mayo. Michigan is a big name but I don't know much about it for anesthesia.

Rad-onc- a relatively rare DO match, although because of the problems with getting a job after residency, this has become markedly less competitive.

Optho- a decent match given thh fact is an allopathic match but it is in Detroit... so not all that competitive and this is confirmed by the fact that roughly 15% of their residents are international medical graduates. So all in all, a decent match but let's not kid our selves that this is a competitive place to do residency.

Surgical subspecialties are not good markers for a DO school because of the competitive nature of surgery/ortho/ent/NS etc. As expected, these are not strong matches. This would be expected of any DO school. We also don't know if these are prelim spts (a terrible match) or categorical because the match list posted doesn't differentiate.

The best places to look are Medicine and Peds. These are attrocious. Let's look at the medicine match list:

Sky ridge medical center- 186 beds. Is that even a hospital? That is miniscule. You're not exactly getting to see anything interesting there... they'll send it elsewhere. Hell, where I am going for fellowship we have more cardiology beds that that hospital has total beds... what are there 50 medicine beds at Sky Ridge? 4 of the 18 IM matches were here... Terrible

Parkview- 350 beds- still small even for a community training hospital. 6 more of the 18 are going here...

Grandview- 400+ beds. Getting better still. Still small and unfilled. Both 2nd and 3rd year aren't filled... says a lot about a program especially when they only take 5 residents a year.

Danville regional medical center- a whopping 250 beds and in **** county, Virginia (I am from Virginia and love Virginia but Danville sucks).

Swedish medical- 313 beds in Chicago. I bet they see a lot there...

Northside hospital- 227 beds.

Genesys- 410 beds

Texas A&M- 636 beds and level 1 trauma. For reference, most in the medicine world would consider this a mediocre medicine match. This is 3 steps up from the other matches. So, the others above are just bad matches. You can't slice it any other way.


Also notice there is not a single IM match to U Colorado... which is pretty darn close to RVU. Colorado is not even that competitive. This speaks volumes. All in all, this was a worse medicine match list than you find at SGU (carribean). *

Ah, The pompous IM - MD resident from J Hopkins speaks again here on the osteopathic forum!!! It's funny, when I've discussed the match list with folks who have been in practice for a number of years (MD and DO), they are impressed by the RVU match. But then, you must know better, after all, you MUST be an expert on all this, based upon your comment and your experience!!

 

[Instatewaiter]

Ah, The pompous IM - MD resident from J Hopkins speaks again here on the osteopathic forum!!! It's funny, when I've discussed the match list with folks who have been in practice for a number of years (MD and DO), they are impressed by the RVU match. But then, you must know better, after all, you MUST be an expert on all this, based upon your comment and your experience!!

Ad hominems aren't going to magically make this a good IM match list nor is some unnamed doctors who has been practicining "for a number of years". Sorry. It was a miserable IM match list.

Don't get butt hurt that your school put out a crappy match list. Perhaps you will change it when you match.

 

[SurgeDO]

I would think someone whose daddy got them into medical school in the first place would be a little more humble, but I digress...

There are some horror stories about the generic for-profit schools handing out non-accredited degrees, providing inadequate training, practicing unethical recruitment techniques, as well as placing their graduates in massive amounts of student debt. Although RVU is a little pricey, it is matching well--assuming RVU students aren't ranking top programs.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

blah blah blah blah

Here's the deal, 80-85% of the monies taken in by RVU have to directly benefit student education. In MN, this is how health insurance and hospitals are forced to run, as well as they have to be non-profit, which is a model the nation is trying to take on for health insurance reform. Why? because it makes CEO profits NOT the focus of the company... SO suck it haters! The school has some things that aren't as great as I'd like, but no school is perfect (at least I can eat in the lecture hall and wear what I want), and we're new, and working out kinks. The school has never acted toward me, or the student body in a way that is any different from my undergrad institution other than that I can't call profs by first name... 😛

and RVU isn't any more expensive than any other schools, it falls right into midline with the rest of private DO schools, tuition and fees per year ~45k. AZCOM/CCOM are way more... so are others...

 

[Instatewaiter]

I would think someone whose daddy got them into medical school in the first place would be a little more humble, but I digress...

There are some horror stories about the generic for-profit schools handing out non-accredited degrees, providing inadequate training, practicing unethical recruitment techniques, as well as placing their graduates in massive amounts of student debt. Although RVU is a little pricey, it is matching well--assuming RVU students aren't ranking top programs.

Is this supposed to be directed at me?

blah blah blah blah

Here's the deal, 80-85% of the monies taken in by RVU have to directly benefit student education. In MN, this is how health insurance and hospitals are forced to run, as well as they have to be non-profit, which is a model the nation is trying to take on for health insurance reform. Why? because it makes CEO profits NOT the focus of the company... SO suck it haters!

But that is not how a for profit school has to run since it is neither health insurance nor a hospital; it is a business.

 

[SurgeDO]

Is this supposed to be directed at me? Again, if you can't argue something, perhaps attacking the person will weaken their position. Well I got into med school on my own merit and got through medical school on my own merit as evidenced by where I ended up for residency and fellowship. So say whatever you want the match list still sucked donkey nuts.




But that is not how a for profit school has to run since it is neither health insurance nor a hospital; it is a business.

I was not attacking you. Why would you think that? Read up on the founder/entrepreneur (Yife Tien) of RVU. His daddy got him into medical school in the Caribbean (http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml). I still think RVU is a solid school.

It's just pathetic that some people are given seats in crappy medical schools because their parents donate money to their medical school or are alumni for a medical school. I can imagine Tien's classmates could not stand him considering his father essentially began his career. Oh well, some people are just born with a silver spoon in their mouth, amirite?