For some reason, nobody wants to become a Pharmacist anymore?

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Maybe it's where I live, but then again I live in the SoFla Metro area. Nobody wants to be come a Pharmacist anymore. I know about 20+ people (and they know other people who were doing Pharmacy and switched) who switched their track from Pre-Pharm to something like PT, OT, or PA. Hmmm.... maybe this is a good thing It will help with the so called "saturation."

Complaints from those people:
"Oh saturation blah blah"
"Too long"
"Organic Chemistry is gonna kill me"
"What if I complete the 4 years and we get replaced by robots?"
"I heard it's boring"
"I just realized I'm bad at math"
"I don't want to stand all day"
"I might get addicted to the drugs I work with" <---- LMFAO
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Dude...

all those things are pretty legit. And the getting addicted thing is kind of funny- but also an actual problem. During our first week of pharm school- 2 years ago or whatever- we had a few lectures from a drug abuse specialist. And the robot thing is also slightly worrisome. In class we also had a lecture on how we basically could very easily be replaced with robots, and if not robots then mail order pharmacy or any other type scenario(ever heard of the law where we went from 3:1 ratio of techs😛harmacists to 6:1, do you think we need as many pharmacists with that many techs working in the pharmacy- that happened here where I live). It can be boring. Organic is pointless. Math? can you count to five and do simple algebra? And as an intern, yeah- standing all day can get tiresome. But- in my opinion the saturation, changing laws, and real possibility of robotic/mail order pharmacy is not too far down the road. More likely mail order tho than robots (obviously).
 
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Lmao yeah I'm just stating what people told me why they DON'T want to pursue Pharmacy anymore. Oh yeah, go ahead and apply to Med school with a mindset like "oh it may be boring" or "I just want that paper." Come on guys, It's your future I told them, If you really didn't care why are you in college? :/
 
JohnnyRomanes said:
Lmao yeah I'm just stating what people told me why they DON'T want to pursue Pharmacy anymore. Oh yeah, go ahead and apply to Med school with a mindset like "oh it may be boring" or "I just want that paper." Come on guys, It's your future I told them, If you really didn't care why are you in college? :/
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Why? Really, you have to ask why?

The answer's obvious: To avoid the real world and having to work ****ty ass jobs to support oneself.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Why? Really, you have to ask why?

The answer's obvious: To avoid the real world and having to work ****ty ass jobs to support oneself.
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If a person can graduate high school and land a job that paids between 40K to 60K a year then I say stick with that job. I think that would be a better investment than any college degree.

Unfortunately, when I was younger I was raised to believe college education = 100% guarantee success/BIG $$$! But that really isn't true at all.
 
SHC1984 said:
If a person can graduate high school and land a job that paids between 40K to 60K a year then I say stick with that job. I think that would be a better investment than any college degree.

Unfortunately, when I was younger I was raised to believe college education = 100% guarantee success/BIG $$$! But that really isn't true at all.
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Sure, if you can make 20-25 bones an hour starting, then yeah, definitely.

But, how many of those jobs are really out there, especially ITE???

Most (8 out of 10...) of my friends with whom I graduated went to work right out of HS and now make an average of 13 bucks an hour, with the range being 8 to 18.

Even a liberal arts B.A. WITH MINIMAL DEBT(!!!!) is a good investment for future earnings. A lot of entry level business admin. type jobs pretty much require 4 year degrees de facto because of all the candidates that have them regardless.
 
SHC1984 said:
If a person can graduate high school and land a job that paids between 40K to 60K a year then I say stick with that job. I think that would be a better investment than any college degree.

Unfortunately, when I was younger I was raised to believe college education = 100% guarantee success/BIG $$$! But that really isn't true at all.
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"Guarantee" isn't necessarily the best word fit for it. But education significantly improves your chance for a much better means of living standards. It opens up door for better opportunities - always. And this is for the average Joe.

Cases where high school degrees earn you 40K+ are very few...and mostly out of the norm. And then again, most of those high school degree jobs require you to work your @$$ off doing something that barely/narrowly worth it.

Would a high school graduate (with no further education) be able to get a job that requires a bachelors & offers better means of living or making money? Nope. Will a Junior high school graduate be able to land a better job that requires a high school diploma? Nope. So you see - education will always the best option for an average citizen. It's not always how much you make, it's how or what is required of you to make it. And it commonly gets better the higher up you go with your education - commonly...or perhaps, supposedly.

So whoever trained you to believe so probably meant "it guarantees you better opportunities". Whether or not you're able to seize/secure those opportunity is a whole different case affected by certain factors.
 
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Electrode said:
"Guarantee" isn't necessarily the best word fit for it. But education significantly improves your chance for a much better means of living standards. It opens up door for better opportunities - always. And this is for the average Joe.

Cases where high school degrees earn you 40K+ are very few...and mostly out of the norm. And then again, most of those high school degree jobs require you to work your @$$ off doing something that barely/narrowly worth it.

Would a high school graduate (with no further education) be able to get a job that requires a bachelors & offers better means of living or making money? Nope. Will a Junior high school graduate be able to land a better job that requires a high school diploma? Nope. So you see - education will always the best option for an average citizen. It's not always how much you make, it's how or what is required of you to make it. And it commonly gets better the higher up you go with your education - commonly...or perhaps, supposedly.

So whoever trained you to believe so probably meant "it guarantees you better opportunities". Whether or not you're able to seize/secure those opportunity is a whole different case affected by certain factors.
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Yeah no I agree with SHC here, my background was such that I was brought up to believe a BS/BA was all you needed to succeed and the big bucks would follow.

Boy, what a reality check that was...but I knew it as I progressed through undergrad that a BS/BA is a dime a dozen nowadays. Just goes to show that past advice hardly ever carries forward.

Same with the PharmD....I was told of job security and relatively high wages, but that has drastically changed in the 3yrs I've been in school. Now it's....get a residency or all you'll find is per-diem/PT work and in rural areas.

Haha...I have a feeling that if I get a residency it's going to be like "well now you need residency + 5yrs experience or you have to move to Kansas and not anywhere near the coast."

My advice for pre-pharms now is to go into something else, the boat has pretty much left the dock and my right foot is barely on it...and I'm wrapping up P3!
 
Like with everything else the answer to this question isn't black and white. Yeah a degree is very handy but it's your personality too that gets you ahead. If you have a BA/BS and land a 30k job you can easily move up the ladder and make 100, 200, 300k+ BUT you need to be personable, dedicated, professional, etc. Some people stay stagnant because their personality prevents them from taking on a managerial position. That's also why you hear these random success stories of the high school drop out becoming CEO. not everyone can do that. those people are the natural leaders who for some reason command people's respect, love, and all that jazz.

Having a degree is just too easy and it's a piece of the pie. what most people need is that personable-ness. i think the problem is this is the thing of the 50's era. kids today are selfish, have no respect, and don't want to work hard.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Huh, Organic Chemistry is... pointless?
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yeah believe it or not working at the pharmacy and in school i'm not finding a whole lot of use for gringards rxn, aldol condensation, etc....

as far as drug research - yeah I'm sure that organic is BIG...but for the lay-pharmacist... its pointless. It's just a filter class.
 
I have never in my career seen conditions that exist in pharmacy like they do today. Get out while you still can! It is not worth the time and tuition costs anymore.
 
People change their mind about pharmacy for many reasons including those you listed OP. But its not true that no body wants to become a pharmacist. If the most qualified students change their minds, schools will still fill their seats with less qualified people and the market will be saturated with less competent pharmacists. Pharmacy is still a good program to go into if you compare the job market, work conditions, and time and tuition it takes to get a pharmacy degree with other graduate degrees. If your expecting the red carpet as a pharmacist then maybe it is not for you.
 
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fauxden said:
yeah believe it or not working at the pharmacy and in school i'm not finding a whole lot of use for gringards rxn, aldol condensation, etc....

as far as drug research - yeah I'm sure that organic is BIG...but for the lay-pharmacist... its pointless. It's just a filter class.
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We use ORGO in med chem. It's not an exact extension of ORGO but the principles do come up from time to time. And every once in a while professors in other classes will make some passing remark to the such and such group of drug x doing this or that, so it is not completely pointless. It's one of those things where if you didn't have the knowledge you would be acutely aware of how much you use it.

Working in a pharmacy, not so much. Haven't really ever seen it come up in fact, except that sometimes a pharmacist will know that two drugs are structurally related or something similar. It's not a skill set that is used very much at all as far as I can tell.
 
PharmD RPh said:
I have never in my career seen conditions that exist in pharmacy like they do today. Get out while you still can! It is not worth the time and tuition costs anymore.
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This post troubles me.
 
The robots are already here.



instimeds.jpg
 
jack rabbit said:
Mr Passion4Sci, You act like you own SDN. How am I a troll? I am troubled by what the "pharmacist" said, and its perfectly normal.
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Huh? No, not you Jack, the other guy who is RxTiger2004's alter ego. That guy is a known troll. Relax.

You shouldn't be troubled by it. If you are, he's getting exactly the response he wants.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Huh? No, not you Jack, the other guy who is RxTiger2004's alter ego. That guy is a known troll. Relax.

You shouldn't be troubled by it. If you are, he's getting exactly the response he wants.
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Oh. I misinterpreted/misread. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Ummm.... just to clear it up. I'm quoting people that have said this to ME. I've wanted to become a pharmacist for a long time and I plan on becoming one. I made this thread because I was wondering if any of you other guys have encountered people that choose not to pursue Pharmacy for such stupid reasons like the examples listed.
 
JohnnyRomanes said:
Ummm.... just to clear it up. I'm quoting people that have said this to ME. I've wanted to become a pharmacist for a long time and I plan on becoming one. I made this thread because I was wondering if any of you other guys have encountered people that choose not to pursue Pharmacy for such stupid reasons like the examples listed.
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Stupid reasons? Yeah...the examples related to job security (more robotics, saturation, 6:1 tech ratios, etc, etc) all seemed fairly accurate reasons not to go into pharmacy anymore. Just saying... Go check that pharmD forum and see what the opinions of actual pharmacists and pharmacy students are right now.
 
Just go to a different route with pharmacy and see how it works. I personally have a sales mentality and like doing things like flavoring prescriptions, doing ready fill, etc. because it generates money; same way I don't like doing outside vendor vs truck since it costs the store money.

I've done sales in insurance, computer sales at bestbuy, etc. and loved it. So I'll just go to medical sales or do something medically relevant; a degree in pharmacy, possibly an MBA (if I find it relevant or not) and a sales attitude would make me want to do something related to medical sales. Maybe pharma rep for hospitals, equipment sales, vaccination sales, management of these things for third world/WHO, something along the lines of the business and haggling aspect of medicine. Not to mention there is some management experience there with techs and front-store people to an extent so you have a lot of business skills. With most of these skills you obtain, a lot of other people have to do a lot more work and ladder-climbing to even get exposure for these skills.

Yeah, let start rolling with the business ***** jokes. But if I get a rush out of selling and a lot of people with similar degrees don't...it opens up a new market to me. I don't want to be a DM since I'm forcing others to be something they don't want to be: sales people who cut corners to make a bottom line. However, if someone wants to improve their bottom line and do sales as well as work with people, then they have different opportunities than people who don't. So just combine your PharmD with some things you enjoy and see how you do with it. People usually think retail, LTC, and hospital or pharma fellowships in industry for research. But if you enjoy sales, you enjoy computers, you enjoy business management, teaching, lab work, etc. then you will probably find a way to make it work to some extent. Maybe you don't get AS much pharmacy experience as you would like but it's something to do until your ideal job comes along.
 
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klt51100 said:
I am not worried about over-saturation or being replaced by a robot! If you are just read this article and you will feel better:
http://www.aacp.org/resources/student/pharmacyforyou/Pages/joboutlook.aspx

🙂
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the numbers they use in this article are very out of date. Go check out what pharmacists are actually saying over in the pharmD forum.

http://www.ashp.org/import/news/pressreleases/pressrelease.aspx?id=614

oh and lets not forget about how the AACP rules...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=791118
 
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Okay, I see a lot a Pharm students complaining. If you really mean what you say why don't you just drop out? You claim the profession is going in flames, you take what a Pharmacist says and you agree with it. Maybe you are already interning and know the jist of what's going on behind closed doors, but I ask you, why would you even attempt to continue if you know that pharmacy is going to ****. In your mind you are basically screwing yourself. I'm not trying to bash you, come on now.
 
JohnnyRomanes said:
Okay, I see a lot a Pharm students complaining. If you really mean what you say why don't you just drop out? You claim the profession is going in flames, you take what a Pharmacist says and you agree with it. Maybe you are already interning and know the jist of what's going on behind closed doors, but I ask you, why would you even attempt to continue if you know that pharmacy is going to ****. In your mind you are basically screwing yourself. I'm not trying to bash you, come on now.
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because- I'm halfway through school. Im not going to bail on it now and go away with nothing but debt. When I graduate I will try and find a job (which I have little faith in), but I will offer to work for 80k or less just to be working, and so will everyone else--- say bye bye six figure pharmacist wage. Then I'll go back to school and do something else. The benefit of pre-pharm is you still have the option of not walking into the shiz storm. And the pre-reqs can go towards any place in the health field. Broaden your horizons. Don't be an idiot like us that are stuck in limbo, in the middle of school watching the profession fall and at the same time not being able to back out of it. (oh and yeah, I'm an intern)
 
JohnnyRomanes said:
Okay, I see a lot a Pharm students complaining. If you really mean what you say why don't you just drop out? You claim the profession is going in flames, you take what a Pharmacist says and you agree with it. Maybe you are already interning and know the jist of what's going on behind closed doors, but I ask you, why would you even attempt to continue if you know that pharmacy is going to ****. In your mind you are basically screwing yourself. I'm not trying to bash you, come on now.
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Not flames, but a slowly sinking ship that won't ever fully be submerged. Take this Titanic example. When I graduate, I start on the lowest level (steerage). Sure, there's some water and my clothes are soaked, but as time goes on I climb the levels and dry off.

As the ship sinks, new pre-pharms graduate and fill in the steerage ranks. NOW there's just a **** ton of water down there and it's freezing. It takes you a while to find a decent spot to tred water cuz it's PACKED (new grads). You eventually move up (it'll take longer) and you're even more soaked than me.

But as for "not dropping out" we're not idiots...I've sunk $100k+ so far into the degree, while the boat is sinking, I make the decision that $100k debt and no degree is worse than $180k WITH a pharmd. it's a simple economic decision. If I had $500k left to spend and suddenly the salary to which I'm gunning for dropped from $1M/yr to $10k/yr, then yeah I'd cut my losses.

Anyway, just trying to help other pre-pharms out here...the profession, salary, and "job security" you see today will NOT be what you get in 4-6 years when you hit the market. Keep that in mind...I did, but even I got caught off guard with the surge in graduates & the disappearance of the shortage.

I didn't think it would get this bad.
 
Fauxden, I do understand where you are coming from. Multiple sources and groups have told me about the rise and fall of the Pharmacy profession. By telling us Pre-pharms like us that the job opportunity in the next 5 years (< 5 a lot of people may say) will worsen by a great deal, generally we would lose hope in that field of health. I've read a bunch of articles saying that from the time span of 2008-2010, there was a a big unemployment margin for recent grads. I don't know much starting money-wise, but a lot of NSU and UF grads claim they still get offers from different fields (industry, retail, clinical, hospital etc. of course depending on the residency) though not a much as lets say 3-4 years ago. I heard at grads of 2010 started off at around 95k-101k. A recent 2010 pharm grad I work at in MHP said she is taking in 107k as a hospital pharmacist. (she did 7 months in retail before getting hired) Well, maybe I could say I'm partially blind to this downwards spiral in this profession, but I still have great hope that it will be rewarding. (hoping!) Opinions, answers would be nice, I always like to get both the broader and/or specific view of things. 🙂
 
confettiflyer said:
Not flames, but a slowly sinking ship that won't ever fully be submerged. Take this Titanic example. When I graduate, I start on the lowest level (steerage). Sure, there's some water and my clothes are soaked, but as time goes on I climb the levels and dry off.

As the ship sinks, new pre-pharms graduate and fill in the steerage ranks. NOW there's just a **** ton of water down there and it's freezing. It takes you a while to find a decent spot to tred water cuz it's PACKED (new grads). You eventually move up (it'll take longer) and you're even more soaked than me.

But as for "not dropping out" we're not idiots...I've sunk $100k+ so far into the degree, while the boat is sinking, I make the decision that $100k debt and no degree is worse than $180k WITH a pharmd. it's a simple economic decision. If I had $500k left to spend and suddenly the salary to which I'm gunning for dropped from $1M/yr to $10k/yr, then yeah I'd cut my losses.

Anyway, just trying to help other pre-pharms out here...the profession, salary, and "job security" you see today will NOT be what you get in 4-6 years when you hit the market. Keep that in mind...I did, but even I got caught off guard with the surge in graduates & the disappearance of the shortage.

I didn't think it would get this bad.
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Well, hypothetically, let's say you do land a really good job as a Clinical Pharm, making around 105k starts and gradually increasing by the years. I would guess you are good with the job conditions seeing as you are a pharmacy student, obviously interested in a career in pharmacy. Would you take it, or would you decide that as the profession worsens, so will the pay/work conditions of a established PharmD?
 
Electrode said:
Do they do consultations & IV compoundings too? Kid yourself not.
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I realize your pre-pharm.... do you work in a pharmacy setting though? Consultation is very important. But I would say 99% of people don't take it or want it. And yeah- I could see a robot doing it pretty easy, its called a monograph and it prints out with your drug. Done and done. As for IV's... I worked as a hospital intern, and I currently work as an intern at a pharmacy that does compounding and sterile products...we make IVs....anyways- A trained monkey could make IVs...or robot for that matter. Im not going to argue that I soon predict robots taking over everything...but I mean- making IVs ain't that hard.
 
klt51100 said:
I am not worried about over-saturation or being replaced by a robot! If you are just read this article and you will feel better:
http://www.aacp.org/resources/student/pharmacyforyou/Pages/joboutlook.aspx

🙂
Click to expand...

Really?:\ I would advise doing more research. This link especially bothers me because you would expect to trust a big pharmacy organization like the ACCP about these kinds of issues (or at least naive pre-pharmers would).

I did research on both of the statistics mentioned. The data is outdated. One is from 2000, and the other is 2002. In fact, a more recent report by the HRSA was released in December of 2008 (http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/pharmacy/).




some interesting quotes from this more recent article:

"The supply of pharmacists is growing significantly faster than was previously projected."

"Raising the minimum education level (to a Pharm.D) for new pharmacists does not appear to have reduced the desirability of pharmacy as a career. Applications to pharmacy programs are at an all time high."

"Technologies that automate prescription dispensing and order processing are used by a majority of pharmacies. Most community pharmacies have automated pill-counting devices and can accept prescriptions through fax, interactive voice response systems, or over the Internet (e-prescribing), resulting in moderate increases in productivity, safety, and convenience. Hospitals, mail order pharmacies, and larger volume pharmacies are increasing investing in sophisticated robotics systems, which can significantly increase pharmacist productivity but at a cost that is prohibitive for lower volume operations."

"The overall conclusion of this study is that the Nation has responded to earlier predictions of a growing shortfall of pharmacists, and to market forces that have raised pharmacist earnings, by expanding supply and increasing the use of technology and technicians."
 
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I think its interesting that many people are convinced about the saturation of the field of pharmacy and the gloomy future based on what a few people post here on SDN. Job market is good in many locations but harder closer to main cities and walgreens as a corporation alone still opening what 300 stores(2 pharmacist per store) per year. Many older pharmacists are still working today as well because of the poor economy but will have to retire eventually so in next few years there will be more pharmacists leaving the market.

In my opinion pharmacy grads now and in the next 5 years or so will find jobs but if schools continue to open at this rate grads in ten years will be in a difficult situation.
 
Just wondering fauxden where do you live? I am also an intern as well and the pharmacy market is fine here.
 
pharmddreams said:
I think its interesting that many people are convinced about the saturation of the field of pharmacy and the gloomy future based on what a few people post here on SDN. Job market is good in many locations but harder closer to main cities and walgreens as a corporation alone still opening what 300 stores(2 pharmacist per store) per year. Many older pharmacists are still working today as well because of the poor economy but will have to retire eventually so in next few years there will be more pharmacists leaving the market.

In my opinion pharmacy grads now and in the next 5 years or so will find jobs but if schools continue to open at this rate grads in ten years will be in a difficult situation.
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I live in the west. And I'm not convinced based on what people on SDN say. Look at the trends. Its obvious. The bureau of labor stats are out of date and the AACP is full of crap saying there is a good outlook. I found this out my first year of pharm school and then started searching the web for anyone else that was sane. It just so happens that at SDN there are a few people who can see through all the BS and know what is coming.
 
pharmddreams said:
In my opinion pharmacy grads now and in the next 5 years or so will find jobs but if schools continue to open at this rate grads in ten years will be in a difficult situation.
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I disagree, only because most of the new programs haven't even graduated their first class yet. I say keep your eyes open for the graduating class of this May, and May 2012, I suspect you'll see some serious effects by 2014..
 
I know a few people in Touro's graduating class of 2010 and they told me all of their class were able to secure jobs. Some did take longer then others to find one, but they eventually all got jobs.

In my area it seems that everyone is switching to pharmacy.

Philosophy to Pharmacy
Engineering to Pharmacy
Psych to Pharmacy
Sociology to Pharmacy

These are just the people that weren't your traditional students. Most of the people I knew who had a biology related major were pre-health.
 
irishspring said:
I know a few people in Touro's graduating class of 2010 and they told me all of their class were able to secure jobs. Some did take longer then others to find one, but they eventually all got jobs.

In my area it seems that everyone is switching to pharmacy.

Philosophy to Pharmacy
Engineering to Pharmacy
Psych to Pharmacy
Sociology to Pharmacy

These are just the people that weren't your traditional students. Most of the people I knew who had a biology related major were pre-health.
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I saw more of a shift to nursing with my female friends who got BA's in the humanities. Those accelerated MSN programs were quite popular.
 
JohnnyRomanes said:
Well, hypothetically, let's say you do land a really good job as a Clinical Pharm, making around 105k starts and gradually increasing by the years. I would guess you are good with the job conditions seeing as you are a pharmacy student, obviously interested in a career in pharmacy. Would you take it, or would you decide that as the profession worsens, so will the pay/work conditions of a established PharmD?
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Your question is contradictory and confusing....you're asking if I land a clinical job w/ a good starting + periodic increases, would I take it? Then you turn around and ask if then I would take it knowing the conditions & salary decrease. Which is it?

I think I know what you're attempting to ask: I would take that starting and know that a pharmacist + 5yrs has more doors open to them than a fresh grad in spite of a down market.

That's key here, the saturation and decreasing opportunities primarily affect new grads (see: unemployment rate for undergraduates graduating in 2009 vs. overall BS/BA holders). There's proof that those who lose ground initially will never catch up vs. those who begin right away.

Basically, if you're lucky enough to land full employment in the field you like after graduation, you're pretty well set (short of the entire profession collapsing). If you're stuck in an area you don't want or are hobbling together PT/per-diem work (or are unemployed), your lifetime earnings & promotion chances drop significantly.

You won't find masses of established career pharmacists seeing pay cuts or unemployment, but you will see increased #'s of new grads finding it difficult to take that first step. Each year that passes will see that percentage rise.
 
As an aside, telling people not to apply won't do anything to curb supply. For every person that chooses not to apply, a sucker not paying attention will take his or her place. Schools will matriculate full classes, enrollment targets will be met.

Look at law schools.... bottom tier law schools don't seem to be having problems filling seats in spite of all the bad press.
 
confettiflyer said:
As an aside, telling people not to apply won't do anything to curb supply. For every person that chooses not to apply, a sucker not paying attention will take his or her place. Schools will matriculate full classes, enrollment targets will be met.

Look at law schools.... bottom tier law schools don't seem to be having problems filling seats in spite of all the bad press.
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good point. All it really means is less qualified people going into the profession.
 
confettiflyer said:
As an aside, telling people not to apply won't do anything to curb supply. For every person that chooses not to apply, a sucker not paying attention will take his or her place. Schools will matriculate full classes, enrollment targets will be met.

Look at law schools.... bottom tier law schools don't seem to be having problems filling seats in spite of all the bad press.
Click to expand...

Good point. All it really means is less qualified people going into the profession.
 
Anyone have any idea about Canada (Ontario specifically) ?
Just wondering about any possible canadian people on here.
 
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