Foreign trained doctors

[studentdoct4281]

Why does our country and medical system allow foreign trained doctors to practice and do residency in the US? I understand that the more doctors the better the health-care and competition is good; but, I have already rotated with 2 doctors who did medical school in Europe FOR FREE....so they literally get their "degree" and come into the country and start making the same revenues and income without the debt/investment compared to US trained (who likely starts with $200k debt). See this with African trained as well. Mostly saw this with a few surgery residencies who had students from Europe and Africa and India.......

If US trained students are investing in the system of the US education system (and paying the doctors and schools via tuition allowing them to prosper) shouldn't their be an obligation and mandate to ensure a 100% match rate for all US trained doctors, and only after that will foreigners be considered? Who is responsible for regulating this? Medical school congress assemble

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[Animalcules]

The obvious answer is you need higher tariffs, better deals, and taller border walls.

You, my friend, have earned it by paying for it! Residency should never be based on merit, but on the weight of daddy's wallet.

You show those European and African and Indian inferiors!

#MMGA

 

[Lawpy]

Why does our country and medical system allow foreign trained doctors to practice and do residency in the US? I understand that the more doctors the better the health-care and competition is good; but, I have already rotated with 2 doctors who did medical school in Europe FOR FREE....so they literally get their "degree" and come into the country and start making the same revenues and income without the debt/investment compared to US trained (who likely starts with $200k debt). See this with African trained as well. Mostly saw this with a few surgery residencies who had students from Europe and Africa and India.......

If US trained students are investing in the system of the US education system (and paying the doctors and schools via tuition allowing them to prosper) shouldn't their be an obligation and mandate to ensure a 100% match rate for all US trained doctors, and only after that will foreigners be considered? Who is responsible for regulating this? Medical school congress assemble

This is a major argument made in a petition linked in another thread: In light of nearly 20% not matching ACGME and AOA spots disappearing, sign this petition!

In the Canadian CaRMS, only certain programs are designated to IMGs and majority of residency are reserved for Canadian graduates. The UK does not allow American citizens any residency positions until all domestic students are placed. Likewise for Australia, the EU, and Asia. Yet, graduates of those nations displace American students that were invested in by their states and federal governments.

This petition seeks to adopt a system similar to Canada, UK, or the EU to stop the misuse of medicare funds to allow further backdoor deals with offshore for-profit schools at a cost to American medical students.

 

[TheCanadian]

The fact is the American healthcare system is heavily reliant on FMGs to function. So many hospitals would cease to exist without foreign trained doctors working in them, due to lack of interest by AMGs. These hospitals are often in very underserviced and impoverished areas that AMGs wouldn't think of coming near. So, go ahead and apply to places like central brooklyn and maybe they wouldn't need the IMGs...

 

[Animalcules]

This is a major argument made in a petition linked in another thread: In light of nearly 20% not matching ACGME and AOA spots disappearing, sign this petition!

Free market vs protectionism. This must be the solution.

 

[libertyyne]

Why does our country and medical system allow foreign trained doctors to practice and do residency in the US? I understand that the more doctors the better the health-care and competition is good; but, I have already rotated with 2 doctors who did medical school in Europe FOR FREE....so they literally get their "degree" and come into the country and start making the same revenues and income without the debt/investment compared to US trained (who likely starts with $200k debt). See this with African trained as well. Mostly saw this with a few surgery residencies who had students from Europe and Africa and India.......

If US trained students are investing in the system of the US education system (and paying the doctors and schools via tuition allowing them to prosper) shouldn't their be an obligation and mandate to ensure a 100% match rate for all US trained doctors, and only after that will foreigners be considered? Who is responsible for regulating this? Medical school congress assemble

What about the US doctor that failed step 3 times and had a dui during medical school?
Or that one person that failed clinical rotations multiple times, or had to repeat multiple years?

Standards should be high for healthcare system not lower to accomodate lowest common denominator. There should be a way where these doctors who dont match find gainful employment in medicine. I dont know how to find that. We could try exporting them to europe and africa to counterbalance the doctors coming in.

 

[Mad Jack]

What about the US doctor that failed step 3 times and had a dui during medical school?
Or that one person that failed clinical rotations multiple times, or had to repeat multiple years?

Standards should be high for healthcare system not lower to accomodate lowest common denominator. There should be a way where these doctors who dont match find gainful employment in medicine. I dont know how to find that. We could try exporting them to europe and africa to counterbalance the doctors coming in.

What about those US students with solid scores that slipped through the cracks? I disagree with protectionism, but I also disagree with painting all unmatched US grads as individuals with serious issues. Psych, in particular, burned a lot of them this year.

 

[libertyyne]

What about those US students with solid scores that slipped through the cracks? I disagree with protectionism, but I also disagree with painting all unmatched US grads as individuals with serious issues. Psych, in particular, burned a lot of them this year.

Those people will match next year. It is an unfortunate byproduct of our system. Im still not sold that US grads want the jobs the FMGs are taking. Should the US grads be forced to take a less preferable job where only fmgs have applied and interviewed?

 

[Rekt]

IMGs and FMGs should absolutely only be able to obtain spots that are leftover after USMD/DOs match.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I think at this moment, given the benefit of being an AMG in the match, the people who are actually competiting for the same last few drop of spots and are in danger of not matching are

- vastly underperforming USMD
- underperforming USDO
- average or barely above average FMG/IMG

I wonder which doctor would people want for their parents if no other choices are available

1. DO grads who took 2 times to pass COMLEX after barely got into a US school due to DO expansion

Or

2. Average scoring Indian grad with a 220 step 1 and one month of US rotating experience but graduated from the best school in India and had some experience in India as a resident.

Or 3. US grad who went to a top 20 school, developed a drug problem during his ortho residency, was fired and is now post rehab, may or may not still have substance issues.

Because those are the grads that are competiting for those least desirable spots. By banning the FMG you got the struggliNg DO grad or the even more questionable USMD.

Just being devil’s advocate.

 

[Animalcules]

IMGs and FMGs should absolutely only be able to obtain spots that are leftover after USMD/DOs match.

That is absolutely un-American.

You can go and study medicine anywhere in the world. It’s your decision to weigh the risks and benefits of going to a US medical school.

Almost everyone matches on first attempt unless you are delusional about your qualifications, aim outside of your academic merit, or have some big big red flags on your resume.

The former match after adjusting their goals, the latter should not be jobless, but may need to side step and consider viable non-residency alternatives.

The argument that everybody that goes through medical school deserves a residency is ridiculous, especially in the wake of schools creating more and more spots in osteopathic medicine. They need to be held accountable by the market if they cannot place students.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

That is absolutely un-American.

You can go and study medicine anywhere in the world. It’s your decision to weight the risks and benefits of going to a US medical school.

Almost everyone matches on first attempt unless you are delusional about your qualifications, aim outside of your academic merit, or have some big big red flags on your resume.

The former match after adjusting their goals, the latter should not be jobless, but may need to side step and consider viable non-residency alternatives.

The argument that everybody that goes through medical school deserves a residency is ridiculous, especially in the wake of schools creating more and more spots in osteopathic medicine. They need to be held accountable by the market if they cannot place students.

Too many DO schools. Expansions will need to stop or be stopped forcibly as the lowest performing / pedigreed DO students no longer able to secure residency.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

That is absolutely un-American.

You can go and study medicine anywhere in the world. It’s your decision to weight the risks and benefits of going to a US medical school.

Almost everyone matches on first attempt unless you are delusional about your qualifications, aim outside of your academic merit, or have some big big red flags on your resume.

The former match after adjusting their goals, the latter should not be jobless, but may need to side step and consider viable non-residency alternatives.

The argument that everybody that goes through medical school deserves a residency is ridiculous, especially in the wake of schools creating more and more spots in osteopathic medicine. They need to be held accountable by the market if they cannot place students.

Yeah, no its not. Using your own tax money to pay to train your own citizens is perfectly reasonable.

 

[libertyyne]

Too many DO schools. Expansions will need to stop or be stopped forcibly as the lowest performing / pedigreed DO students no longer able to secure residency.

COCA should be held accountable for this. People not matching will force the issue.

 

[Lawpy]

Free market vs protectionism. This must be the solution.

The rest of the world is taking a protectionist stance by matching their own grads first. What’s stopping the US from doing the same?

 

[libertyyne]

 

[Animalcules]

The rest of the world is taking a protectionist stance by matching their own grads first. What’s stopping the US from doing the same?

This is not true except for very few countries that have a match system.

 

[Animalcules]

Yeah, no its not. Using your own tax money to pay to train your own citizens is perfectly reasonable.

The taxpayer money is to create a physician workforce, not to make you a physician because you are born in Idaho. And those foreigners save taxpayer money and contribute to that same pot. So I don’t get it, sorry.

 

[Lawpy]

This is not true except for very few countries that have a match system.

... well that basically makes the petition meaningless, since that was a major point addressed.

 

[W19]

There has not been a residency crunch yet since placement rate (not match rate) for US grads is probably in high 90%. The 2% of students that are left behind have huge professionalism issues and/or have failed the boards multiple times. Once the placement rate is in the high 80s to low 90%, I think med students will start raising hell and the lawmakers will take notice.

I think there should be two separate match--one for US citizens (AMG and IMG) and the remaining spots for FMG to duke it out.

 

[Animalcules]

There has not been a residency crunch yet since placement rate (not match rate) for US grads is probably in high 90%. The 2% of students that are left behind have huge professionalism issues and/or have failed the boards multiple times. Once the placement rate is in the high 80s to low 90%, I think med students will start raising hell and the lawmakers will take notice.

I think there should be two separate match--one for US citizens (AMG and IMG) and the remaining spots for FMG to duke it out.

So the US citizen who goes to med school in Poland because he could not make it on the main land should get preference over the Polish student at the same school that is stronger? What about the Polish citizen who goes to a US med school?

 

[IslandStyle808]

That is absolutely un-American.

You can go and study medicine anywhere in the world. It’s your decision to weigh the risks and benefits of going to a US medical school.

Almost everyone matches on first attempt unless you are delusional about your qualifications, aim outside of your academic merit, or have some big big red flags on your resume.

The former match after adjusting their goals, the latter should not be jobless, but may need to side step and consider viable non-residency alternatives.

The argument that everybody that goes through medical school deserves a residency is ridiculous, especially in the wake of schools creating more and more spots in osteopathic medicine. They need to be held accountable by the market if they cannot place students.

I don't understand how this is un-American. The left over spots go over to the best and the brightest from outside US. You have to have a large amount of protectionism otherwise this absurdly expensive pathway would be unfeasible. Nobody would want to do medical school here.

 

[libertyyne]

I don't understand how this is un-American. The left over spots go over to the best and the brightest from outside US. You have to have a large amount of protectionism otherwise this absurdly expensive pathway would be unfeasible. Nobody would want to do medical school here.

Somehow the US MD schools have been surviving for the past ~70 years without this.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Somehow the US MD schools have been surviving for the past ~70 years without this.

You mean that non-LCME filter has been broken this whole time. I've been lied to...

 

[W19]

So the US citizen who goes to med school in Poland because he could not make it on the main land should get preference over the Polish student at the same school that is stronger? What about the Polish citizen who goes to a US med school?

The 'Polish student' can match into these remaining spots if he/she is a strong applicant... We gotta to draw the line somewhere. With both MD and DO school expanding at a rate faster than residency spots, US students will demand that when a high % of them are not getting PGY position.

 

[libertyyne]

You mean that non-LCME filter has been broken this whole time. I've been lied to...

perhaps not taking STEP 1 was not a good idea . But it is too early to be reactionary. Its not like the match rate went down. it stayed the same even with more DO's. The charting outcomes will be interesting to say the least regarding those who did not match.

 

[Trollest]

The 'Polish student' can match into these remaining spots if he/she is a strong applicant... We gotta to draw the line somewhere. With both MD and DO school expanding at a rate faster than residency spots, US students will demand that when a high % of them are not getting PGY position.

You are totally missing his point though. Faitful foreign gf vs promiscous american gf, which would you chose? That's @libertyyne point i believe. Being FMG is a huge disavantage in itself. So there has to be a very compelling reason for an organization to pick such a person over an AMG.

Bolded statement won't fix the problem at all.

 

[IslandStyle808]

perhaps not taking STEP 1 was not a good idea . But it is too early to be reactionary. Its not like the match rate went down. it stayed the same even with more DO's. The charting outcomes will be interesting to say the least regarding those who did not match.

Actually I was referring to the IMGs that are filtered out using the non-LCME filter (the whole DO and non-LCME filtering thing is a different conversation). The filter one proof that protectionism is alive and well.

 

[libertyyne]

Actually I was referring to the IMGs that are filtered out using the non-LCME filter (the whole DO and non-LCME filtering thing is a different conversation). The filter one proof that protectionism is alive and well.

That's not protectionism. People from Carib match even in competitive specialties. People from mid tiers get shut out of high tier stuff even amongst amgs. Protectionism would be if every amg including DOs got seats before caribs. this match result would beg to differ.

 

[IslandStyle808]

That's not protectionism. People from Carib match even in competitive specialties. People from mid tiers get shut out of high tier stuff even amongst amgs. Protectionism would be if every amg including DOs got seats before caribs. this match result would beg to differ.

You're talking about complete protectionism, which is not our system. This is not what I am referring too. What I am referring to is that currently there is for sure some level of protectionism. Its not like the non-LCME filter by itself weeds out Caribbean grads or grads from specific schools, it literally weeds out every non-US MD student. If it is not protectionism, then why do they have it in the first place?

 

[libertyyne]

You're talking about complete protectionism, which is not our system. This is not what I am referring too. What I am referring to is that currently there is for sure some level of protectionism. Its not like the non-LCME filter by itself weeds out Caribbean grads or grads from specific schools, it literally weeds out every non-US MD student. If it is not protectionism, then why do they have it in the first place?

It's because those individual programs are able to attract enough lcme (known quality) applicants to fill the positions. They don't have to mess around with visas or sift through applicants with unknown quality clinical training.

 

[IslandStyle808]

It's because those individual programs are able to attract enough lcme (known quality) applicants to fill the positions. They don't have to mess around with visas or sift through applicants with unknown quality clinical training.

Yet MGH has the time, and I am pretty sure they could they fill their roster with elite candidates outside the US. Yet the bulk majority are still from the US.

 

[libertyyne]

Yet MGH has the time, and I am pretty sure they could they fill their roster with elite candidates outside the US. Yet the bulk majority are still from the US.

Medical Residency Program
It's a little presumptuous to say that all those pedigreed names are lower performing compared to
fmgs. There is one in that link from Israel . Do they have midtier filters too cuz my school doesn't have a single match there.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Medical Residency Program
It's a little presumptuous to say that all those pedigreed names are lower performing compared to
fmgs. There is one in that link from Israel . Do they have midtier filters too cuz my school doesn't have a single match there.

Just as presumptuous to say those FMGs who didn't make it are lower performing than the ones from the US. There are 3 FMGs in the MGH line up in Junior year. As for the mid-tier filters, I have no idea. It seems they don't have any for the low-tier schools since there is a Drexel grad in the senior line up. However, I won't deny the pedigree.

http://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/assets/pdfs/MGH_Internal_Medicine_Juniors_2017.pdf
http://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/assets/pdfs/MGH_Internal_Medicine_Seniors_2017.pdf

 

[Animalcules]

Just as presumptuous to say those FMGs who didn't make it are lower performing than the ones from the US. There are 3 FMGs in the MGH line up in Junior year. As for the mid-tier filters, I have no idea. It seems they don't have any for the low-tier schools since there is a Drexel grad in the senior line up. However, I won't deny the pedigree.

http://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/assets/pdfs/MGH_Internal_Medicine_Juniors_2017.pdf
http://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/assets/pdfs/MGH_Internal_Medicine_Seniors_2017.pdf

There are 5 FMGs in the MGH Junior class (out of 65). That's 8%. I'd argue they have and take the time.