Forensic Psych question

[stookie]

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How do you get work as a forensic psych?? Do you work for a group or practice as a regular psych and take forensic work on the side? Also, if you were to become a regular psych (no fellowship) how do you build up your patient base (ie. have a cash based practice )

 

[needinformation]

Hello. You can't do forensics without completing a fellowship. One used to be able to, but you have to do a fellowship to be eligible for the board. I guess you could do forensics, without being board eligible, but that would be harder to stand up as an expert witness.
How do you build up a case? Depends on what you really want to do. One could work in the corrections system, and essentially do outpt psychiatry. I suppose you don't need to be board certified as a forensic psychiatry for that.
Most of the forensic psych attendings I know do a wide variety of things. One guy has a private practice doing forensics, and charges lawyer type hourly rates, he does felony type crimes...etc, and then he also works at correctional facilities. The other guy I know is all in private practice, some forensics, some just regular general adult psychiatry. I do know a child-forensics person, so that attending does a lot of divorce/custody evaluations. Lots of opprotunities, pays amazingly well, but then again, you have to live with the idea that someone may really want your life...

 

[needinformation]

Hello. You can't do forensics without completing a fellowship. One used to be able to, but you have to do a fellowship to be eligible for the board. I guess you could do forensics, without being board eligible, but that would be harder to stand up as an expert witness.
How do you build up a case load? Depends on what you really want to do. One could work in the corrections system, and essentially do outpt psychiatry. I suppose you don't need to be board certified as a forensic psychiatry for that.
Most of the forensic psych attendings I know do a wide variety of things. One guy has a private practice doing forensics, and charges lawyer type hourly rates, he does felony type crimes...etc, and then he also works at correctional facilities. The other guy I know is all in private practice, some forensics, some just regular general adult psychiatry. I do know a child-forensics person, so that attending does a lot of divorce/custody evaluations. Lots of opprotunities, pays amazingly well, but then again, you have to live with the idea that someone may really want your life...

 

[stookie]

So you would have to put your self out there as a forensic psych ( going to police stations and courts and say Hi! i'm a forensic psych, I'm available)? and on the side you take pts? is it possible to do forensic work permenantely?

 

[Psyclops]

Ethical issues become involved with forensic psych, such as which side employs you. Ideally you would remain impartial and regardless of the side which pays your bill you would anser the referral question openly and honestly. As you can imagine this can pose some problems. Lawyers don't like to consistently hire people who don't give them the answers they want. In addition, providing expert testimony can be tricky, there are certain rules which you should adhere to but often times will be asked to break, even by the judge. For example, often time you will be asked to answer "the ultimate legal question" which depending on the trial is, do you think the person is guilty, or was insane at the time of the crime (as you know Insane is a legal term) but this is for the jury to decide. Even so it is often times posed to the expert witness, and even when pointed out they should not answer it the mental health expert is often forced to answer it under penalty of contempt of court. Forensic work is very messy by my understanding, and requires a good working knowlidge of the legal system.

 

[Doc Samson]

Hello. You can't do forensics without completing a fellowship. One used to be able to, but you have to do a fellowship to be eligible for the board. I guess you could do forensics, without being board eligible, but that would be harder to stand up as an expert witness.
How do you build up a case load? Depends on what you really want to do. One could work in the corrections system, and essentially do outpt psychiatry. I suppose you don't need to be board certified as a forensic psychiatry for that.
Most of the forensic psych attendings I know do a wide variety of things. One guy has a private practice doing forensics, and charges lawyer type hourly rates, he does felony type crimes...etc, and then he also works at correctional facilities. The other guy I know is all in private practice, some forensics, some just regular general adult psychiatry. I do know a child-forensics person, so that attending does a lot of divorce/custody evaluations. Lots of opprotunities, pays amazingly well, but then again, you have to live with the idea that someone may really want your life...

I don't know what you mean by "forensics", but you can absolutely be an expert witness without forensic training. Lots of folks who specialize in psychopharm, child, geriatrics, therapy, or whatever are called as expert witnesses depending on the content of the case.

 

[needinformation]

You're right. Anyone can be called in as an expert witness. I guess I meant that to be hired by a patient for custody issues/competency issues/Not Guilty by Insanity arguments...etc, lawyers in general like to hire forensic boarded psychiatrists. I am certainly not an expert in this area, since I haven't done a fellowship and really don't plan on doing one. However, the forensic psychiatrist that I have worked with and respect did say that he prefers to be the court appointed forensics opinion so that he can say what he really sees. For instance, for people battling for custody, mom will hire a psychiatrist to say that the child will do better with mom, and dad will hire one to say the opposite, and the court will appoint yet another psychiatrist. I think court will only appoint forensics boarded psychiatrist for that purpose. I do think that if you want to charge lawyers' rates for this kind of work, it is reserved for forensic boarded people. However, anyone can go to court and say, this person needs to be medicated, that person needs to be conserved...etc, but then again, there is no $ involved in those situations. I am rambling now, does that make any sense?

 

[Doc Samson]

You're right. Anyone can be called in as an expert witness. I guess I meant that to be hired by a patient for custody issues/competency issues/Not Guilty by Insanity arguments...etc, lawyers in general like to hire forensic boarded psychiatrists. I am certainly not an expert in this area, since I haven't done a fellowship and really don't plan on doing one. However, the forensic psychiatrist that I have worked with and respect did say that he prefers to be the court appointed forensics opinion so that he can say what he really sees. For instance, for people battling for custody, mom will hire a psychiatrist to say that the child will do better with mom, and dad will hire one to say the opposite, and the court will appoint yet another psychiatrist. I think court will only appoint forensics boarded psychiatrist for that purpose. I do think that if you want to charge lawyers' rates for this kind of work, it is reserved for forensic boarded people. However, anyone can go to court and say, this person needs to be medicated, that person needs to be conserved...etc, but then again, there is no $ involved in those situations. I am rambling now, does that make any sense?

Specifically around NGRI issues, then yes, board certification in forensic psychiatry is (in most areas of the country) likely a requirement. However, being called as an expert witness by either attorney means that: a) you get paid, and b) you can bill by the hour. One of my supervisors who is a forensic psychiatrist frequently recommends other psychiatrists with varying specialties to his retaining attorney, so that they can comment on the medication/child/geriatric/whatever piece of the case, and he can focus on the pure forensic issue. He also heavily emphasizes that a forensic psychiatrist is paid for his opinion, whether it is consistent with what the retaining attorney is hoping for or not. You get paid whether you are called to testify in court or not. Psychiatrists who tailor their opinions to the "side" that they're on quickly get a reputation for being "******" (my supervisor's words), and since a forensic psychiatrist makes a living based on believable testimony, and believable testiimony is based on reputation, someone with a reputation as a "*****" might find it hard to find work.

 

[needinformation]

That is true: reputation is everything in forensics.