Friday Classes and Shabbos

[TopDocChick]

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Do any orthodox med students have the problem of classes on friday ending after sundown? What do you do? In some schools you have to miss an entire lecture every week for 3 months if sundown gets to be around 4:10 and classes end at 5. Just wondering for future reference. (still applying)

 

[Corker]

How would this affect working at the hospital on a Friday PM? Are you going to have to opt out of that, too? I am 100% in support of those who honor their religions, but I can see where this could be a real problem in this profession (and the pursuit of your education for the profession.)

I also hold religious values (keeping the Sabbath holy---not working, shopping, etc. on Sunday), but I have worked at the hospital on Sundays for many years (when required.) Sick people still need care on Sunday, so I justify my work with this idea.

I feel the same about my medical education. I feel that if a class (or rotation day, or whatever) that leads me to this service position is held on a Sunday, I am in the service (or working toward being in the service) of my fellow man, so I am justified in my compromise.

Any thoughts?

 

[TopDocChick]

I would definitely work in the hospital on a shabbos during my residency when I am a doctor and can save lives. I am asking because in medical school, taking a class that I could learn on my own via notes service, podcasts and extra studying does not justify attending class on shabbos just because it makes it a little easier. Please don't flame me for my opinion, i realize that this can be a touchy subject for some people. I really only want to advice from another orthodox medical student who feels the same way I do about shabbos.

 

[Law2Doc]

I would definitely work in the hospital on a shabbos during my residency when I am a doctor and can save lives. I am asking because in medical school, taking a class that I could learn on my own via notes service, podcasts and extra studying does not justify attending class on shabbos just because it makes it a little easier. Please don't flame me for my opinion, i realize that this can be a touchy subject for some people. I really only want to advice from another orthodox medical student who feels the same way I do about shabbos.

On SDN you don't get to choose who gives advice -- just skip past the stuff you don't like. If you end up with choices as to med schools, attend one that offers podcasts/AVIs of lectures, doesn't mandate attendance to lectures, and talk to the administration to see if you can arrange non-lecture things to not fall on the sabbath. If you don't have choices as to med school, the question is moot -- whatever your school's policy is what it is. I doubt you'll have much trouble during your basic science years at most schools.

In terms of rotations, from what I have seen, some rotations may be more flexible than others in terms of letting you out on Friday evening or Saturday, but at some places you will probably be doing a weekend night call or two. And as the prior poster indicated (and you seem to understand), expect to miss a lot of religious obligations during rotations, where your time is not your own. And you may not be doing much saving lives during some shifts, but you are still going to be expected to be there.

 

[Corker]

I would definitely work in the hospital on a shabbos during my residency when I am a doctor and can save lives. I am asking because in medical school, taking a class that I could learn on my own via notes service, podcasts and extra studying does not justify attending class on shabbos just because it makes it a little easier. Please don't flame me for my opinion, i realize that this can be a touchy subject for some people. I really only want to advice from another orthodox medical student who feels the same way I do about shabbos.

I TOTALLY did not mean to flame you...so sorry if it sounded like that!!! Again, I 100% support those who honor their beliefs!!! And I didn't mean to butt in, either. You have a good point about podcasts...actually I didn't think of that! I was thinking more of mandatory events.

I'll just step out of this thread...feeling unwanted...🙁

j/k

 

[deleted77919]

I'm not a orthodox (in fact I'm not even Jewish), but I would say there are 5 or 6 students in my class who are. We don't have late lectures on Friday and faculty are willing to work with them on moving exams, etc around the high holidays (and the other holidays as well). I suppose it's not surprising that this is at NYU.

 

[woolfda]

Do any orthodox med students have the problem of classes on friday ending after sundown? What do you do? In some schools you have to miss an entire lecture every week for 3 months if sundown gets to be around 4:10 and classes end at 5. Just wondering for future reference. (still applying)

I'm not orthodox, but Seventh-day Adventist and we observe Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. I was concerned about the same thing the first two years. (I have no problem with patient care on Friday night or Sabbath). I felt the same way as the OP about classes or tests, however. I was accepted to three schools, and so I emailed the one that I felt strongly about attending, and explained my beliefs to see if I would run into problems at all in the first two years (I also mentioned that 3rd and 4th yr would not be a problem at all for me). They were very encouraging, and I am now an M1 at that school. I've had no conflicts with tests or classes (even though one of my finals last semester ended about 1 hour before sundown.) It may be a good idea to look at class schedules for the first two years, to see if there might be a problem.

 

[YehudeiAshkenaz]

That's funny, because I was just thinking about that today. I'm an orthodox Jew (and I really am, I'm not just saying that because I like to rest on Saturdays; I pray 3 times a day, plus before/after meals, etc.), and I don't plan on going on on Shabbos if I can avoid it. I know a few docs who were able to work with their schools/programs to help then with this.

As for working on Jewish holidays, Shabbos is a Jewish holiday--in fact, it's one of the biggest holidays in our religion. It just happens to come once a week instead of once a year. Lucky us, I guess.

My question was actually about whether or not you would have to prove if you were observant and have been for a while. I certainly wouldn't have a problem doing it, I was just curious.

 

[Law2Doc]

My question was actually about whether or not you would have to prove if you were observant and have been for a while. I certainly wouldn't have a problem doing it, I was just curious.

That would likely be illegal. They may make you work on a religious holiday, but won't require you to substantiate your claimed beliefs. This is med school, not the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Mmm, now I want to go watch the Big Lebowski again.

 

[78222]

I can't imagine lectures running that late on shabbat for M1-M2 years. However, during rotations, I don't think you are going to be able to get out of working on shabbat.

http://nmhs.blogspot.com/2006/06/shabbat-observance-during-clinical.html

 

[YehudeiAshkenaz]

That would likely be illegal. They may make you work on a religious holiday, but won't require you to substantiate your claimed beliefs. This is med school, not the Spanish Inquisition.

Haha. True. If they said work on Shabbos or you're out, I certainly would work on Shabbos. You gotta do what you gotta do, but I know people find ways to work it out somewhat.

 

[Dr.Detroit]

Do any orthodox med students have the problem of classes on friday ending after sundown? What do you do? In some schools you have to miss an entire lecture every week for 3 months if sundown gets to be around 4:10 and classes end at 5. Just wondering for future reference. (still applying)

At Wayne State, all of our lectures are webcast. (We can download them and watch them at accelerated speeds.) I watch a lot of lectures in my pajamas while eating Cocoa Krispies™. It's pretty much "the balls".

 

[Epibackpacker]

Evening Everyone,
I am not Shomer Shabbos but at many schools I am looking at they have classes from 8-12 in the mornings and only very occasionally afternoon classes. This is the case at both SUNY Buffalo and University of Maryland. For those who are serious about Shabbos and clinical duties Rabbi Schachter of Yeshiva University has written on this topic. Some of his suggestions though would make it extremely difficult if not impossible to complete medical school. Also there is a doctor I believe named Daniel Eisenberg who has pushed for Shomer Shabbos residencies who might be a good person to contact.
Cheers,

 

[TopDocChick]

There are some that do run late in M1 and M2 years. I have looked at some curriculums. It also depends on where in the country - i.e. Shabbos is earlier in Chicago than in Ohio because of the time zone. Again, I will work rotations on shabbat - that is not what I am concerned with. It is just the classroom aspect.

I can't imagine lectures running that late on shabbat for M1-M2 years. However, during rotations, I don't think you are going to be able to get out of working on shabbat.

http://nmhs.blogspot.com/2006/06/shabbat-observance-during-clinical.html

 

[78222]

There are some that do run late in M1 and M2 years. I have looked at some curriculums. It also depends on where in the country - i.e. Shabbos is earlier in Chicago than in Ohio because of the time zone. Again, I will work rotations on shabbat - that is not what I am concerned with. It is just the classroom aspect.

I'm not shomer with the shabbos (or pretty much anything) but I've never been in class later than 4pm, which in most parts of the country would get you home early enough. Plus, class is pretty much always optional, and rarely worth attending. I really don't think keeping shabbos will be a problem during the first two years, unless you have exams on Mondays...

During clinicals though I think it will be impossible to avoid breaking shabbat. Even if you are on Family med, there is a big chance you wont be able to leave until it's too late. Of course, even in Israel the medical students have to break shabbas. So i dont see why it should be a problem unless you are super-duper-ultra-orthodox (I know some people who refuse to use a can opener on shabbat because it creates a "vessel"😕)

 

[cleothecat]

Good planning and relationships with your peers wouls allow any medical student anywhere to remain shomer shabbat and never have to work on shabbat if it is thir preference.

It is more problematic in residency, depending on the specialty and location of the program.🙂🙂

Shabbat shalom

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I'm not shomer with the shabbos (or pretty much anything) but I've never been in class later than 4pm, which in most parts of the country would get you home early enough. Plus, class is pretty much always optional, and rarely worth attending. I really don't think keeping shabbos will be a problem during the first two years, unless you have exams on Mondays...

During clinicals though I think it will be impossible to avoid breaking shabbat. Even if you are on Family med, there is a big chance you wont be able to leave until it's too late. Of course, even in Israel the medical students have to break shabbas. So i dont see why it should be a problem unless you are super-duper-ultra-orthodox (I know some people who refuse to use a can opener on shabbat because it creates a "vessel"😕)

This is incorrect. Although as a premed I'm not speaking from personal experience, I know several Orthodox medical students and doctors, none of whom have had to violate Shabbos or Yom Tov during their clinical rotations. It's not a "super-duper-ultra-orthodox" thing; I don't think one could find an Orthodox Rabbi of any sort who allows medical students to do rotations on Shabbos.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Good planning and relationships with your peers wouls allow any medical student anywhere to remain shomer shabbat and never have to work on shabbat if it is thir preference.

It is more problematic in residency, depending on the specialty and location of the program.🙂🙂

Shabbat shalom

Good point. Advanced planning is especially important when the holidays are during the week, as they were this fall.

 

[DSpagnoli]

Mmm, now I want to go watch the Big Lebowski again.

I told those ***** down at the league office a thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!!!

 

[78222]

This is incorrect. Although as a premed I'm not speaking from personal experience, I know several Orthodox medical students and doctors, none of whom have had to violate Shabbos or Yom Tov during their clinical rotations. It's not a "super-duper-ultra-orthodox" thing; I don't think one could find an Orthodox Rabbi of any sort who allows medical students to do rotations on Shabbos.

There is a problem of fairness, and ability to follow through with patient care if you refuse to work shabbos. If other students are pulling 80-100 workweeks, why should you be exempt from this? Muslim students don't get Rammadan off, Christians don't get Sunday off, and secular/reform Jews get squat.

Also, if your school integrates medical students into a medical team, how can justify discontinuity of patient care? I think it creates a problem of learning when you can't follow through with the course of a patient.

Further, what happens in a predominately Jewish population (i.e. Israel) when the residents/physicians (not to mention medics, nurses, techs) won't work Shabbos?

I know Orthodox jews that serve in the military and often don't get exempt from working on Shabbos, why should it be any different for medical training?

I can't say this is something that is really important to me, and if you can find a way around it - without compromising patient care, learning, and fairness - then i say more power to you.

 

[bmarms]

because medical students are doing too much but observing. they're not saving lives. which is the only reason really for violating the strict laws of shabbat. believe me, it's definitely not fun and easy taking off time from class. and we only really have 6 days of the week to study. sundays (and saturdays) are never "bum around the house watching movies" days for orthodox jews.
when you're a resident, because you're a more active and involved participant in the treatment plan, the rules change. at that point, yes, continuity becomes important for the patient- because his/her life depends on it.

 

[inaminute]

BoyGeorge asked a similar question last night and got banned as a troll. How sad.

 

[YehudeiAshkenaz]

I don't like the fairness argument. I feel like people who say that are accusing observant Jews of trying to sneak out of work or something. Shabbos is a holiday, but it's not like we're cruising around town looking for chicks and partying (okay, Friday night there might be lots of partying, but still 🙂 ). If a Christian wants to observe the Sabbath (and I'm still confused as to how it suddenly became Sunday for them), then they should try to work something out. I'm not against observant individuals taking off if it's for a real reason. In Judaism, Shabbos is the one day of the week where you can really increase your spirituality and get to a higher level. It's not like we can just observe it on the day we happen to have off.

As far as Israel goes, I'm fairly certain you've never been there. There are a remarkable number of non-Jews and non-observant Jews that live there. What do you think happens at hotels, restaurants, as well as hospitals on Shabbos? Do you think they just close? Most places have a number of non-Jews or non-observant Jews to work on Shabbos so that nothing has to stop.

Also, as a side note to bmarms, Shabbos is from Friday night to Saturday night. I'm not sure if you were aware of that, but you made a comment about bumming around on Sundays, and I just wanted to let you know. 🙂

 

[bmarms]

yehudei- if you have a two day weekend, you get one day off to chill. as a religious jew, we essentially have a one day weekend. so, unlike the rest of the world, our sundays are not bum around in pjs and detox from the studying we did on saturdays days. rather, they're our one free day of the week to study.

 

[78222]

I don't like the fairness argument. I feel like people who say that are accusing observant Jews of trying to sneak out of work or something. Shabbos is a holiday, but it's not like we're cruising around town looking for chicks and partying (okay, Friday night there might be lots of partying, but still 🙂 ). If a Christian wants to observe the Sabbath (and I'm still confused as to how it suddenly became Sunday for them), then they should try to work something out. I'm not against observant individuals taking off if it's for a real reason. In Judaism, Shabbos is the one day of the week where you can really increase your spirituality and get to a higher level. It's not like we can just observe it on the day we happen to have off.

The question is, "when does observing a holiday mean preferential treatment". 1 day a week might not seem like a lot, but in medicine it is. If everyone else is rounding 7 days a week, then I have a problem with justifying someone getting a day off every week for religious reasons, without at least a grade deduction.
Of course, I think EVERYONE should be entitled to at least 1 day a week off, but thats another thread entirely.

As far as Israel goes, I'm fairly certain you've never been there. There are a remarkable number of non-Jews and non-observant Jews that live there. What do you think happens at hotels, restaurants, as well as hospitals on Shabbos? Do you think they just close? Most places have a number of non-Jews or non-observant Jews to work on Shabbos so that nothing has to stop.

I've spent time in Israel and the level of observance depends on where you are. Jerusalem practically shuts down for shabbos, Tzfat entirely shuts down, and Tel Aviv...well it's Tel Aviv! But the problem remains, if you live in an observant area, and there aren't enough nonobservant/non-Jews to run the hospital/EMS/Army, what do you do? I don't have a problem with the Orthodox, but I do think there are pragmatic considerations that haven't to be considered.

As for the bmarms statement that:

"because medical students are doing too much but observing. they're not saving lives. which is the only reason really for violating the strict laws of shabbat. believe me, it's definitely not fun and easy taking off time from class. and we only really have 6 days of the week to study. sundays (and saturdays) are never "bum around the house watching movies" days for orthodox jews.
when you're a resident, because you're a more active and involved participant in the treatment plan, the rules change. at that point, yes, continuity becomes important for the patient- because his/her life depends on it. "

I'd have to respond that the level of involvment you have in patient care depends on the service and hospital you are at. Some services do rely on students as an integral part of the team (I personally think this is a bad way to go about teaching, but it does happen).

 

[Law2Doc]

I'd have to respond that the level of involvment you have in patient care depends on the service and hospital you are at. Some services do rely on students as an integral part of the team .

Gotta agree with this. If you think you are going to spend your rotations "observing", you are in for an eye opener. You will often be put to work (and if you aren't there some other med student will be put to work in your place). You pull your load in the hopes that when something cool is going on you get allowed to observe or even assist. So while you won't be saving lives, nor will you be purely observing. You hopefully are adding value at times. While rotations are technically still school, you really should look at it as your job, because that's the way you are going to be treated.

 

[cleothecat]

Residents have union rights , and rarely does anyone work 7 days per week. And some programs have post call days off. That is why there are teams, to cover the patients when team members have time off.

There is a price to pay for shabbat off. lots of sundays and saturday nights. Christmas and New Years ,Easter and Thanksgiving on.

But it can be done without compromising patient care.

 

[justwondering]

im not jewish, but i thought id just add that there are schls with a lot less lecture than others. some schls regularly let out by noon multiple times a week. also, u might want to consider moving somewhere where sunset is later if ure not really set on any particular city (im not joking...im Muslim and i found that moving south due to family reasons made it a lLOT easier to make my prayers on time because sunset is almost an hour later here than my home town).

 

[mvenus929]

The question is, "when does observing a holiday mean preferential treatment". 1 day a week might not seem like a lot, but in medicine it is. If everyone else is rounding 7 days a week, then I have a problem with justifying someone getting a day off every week for religious reasons, without at least a grade deduction.
Of course, I think EVERYONE should be entitled to at least 1 day a week off, but thats another thread entirely.

Well, I don't have a clue about rotations, but every residency program I've glanced at (I was bored and wanted to see what was out there) gives the residents at least 1 24-hour period each week off. Vacation days would need to be used for observing Jews for the other days (I think it amounts to like 21 non-working days in the year, besides shabbos, and most give 30 days). So, I don't think it's particularly unfair for an individual to take vacation time to go do religious practices and pretty much nothing else.