From Physician Assitant to...

[Old_Mil]

...Physician Associate.

This heads up from the TMB:

"American Academy of Physician Assistants votes to change the name of the physician assistant profession to “Physician Associate”

Recently, the American Academy of Physician Assistants voted to change the name of the physician assistant profession to “Physician Associate.”

Under current Texas law, the use of the title “Physician Assistant” is required. The Texas Medical Board and Physician Assistant Board cannot allow use of any other title for the profession.

Any change of the professional title requires legislative action. "

So, any guesses how long it's going to take them to change it once more, this time to "Associate Physician"? A year? Five? Ten?

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[southerndoc]

Most medical board do not say "physician assistant or physician associate." Almost all say physician assistant. Therefore, they must use the title physician assistant until the medical board changes its terminology at least in a healthcare setting while treating patients.

 

[betamale]

I'd rather they be called healthcare practitioner. Take "physician" out. Physicians to be referred to only as physicians and not "providers", "practitioner".

 

[Kryptocoin]

The problem is that midlevels are being used inappropriately. I've worked in rural ERs that are staffed solely by NPs/PAs with MDs signing their charts hundreds of miles away. Lots of specialists have their clinics completely run by PAs/NPs. So of course they want to be called 'associates' since we've given them that responsibility. The old generation dug this hole and cashed in. Now the next generation have to deal with it.

 

[Tenk]

 

[Sushirolls]

They better start getting charged associate level prices for CME and society membership.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

They can call themselves whatever they please. They will still do what I say as long as I'm forced to supervise them.

 

[Ludwig2000]

Physician's Assistant to Physician Associate

Dropping the apostrophe s was an insidious move

Now they act like it was never there in the first place

 

[BoardingDoc]

Physician's Assistant to Physician Associate

Dropping the apostrophe s was an insidious move

Now they act like it was never there in the first place

Not defending PAs here, but that wasn't actually part of their official name at any point. The change is Physician Assistant --> Physician Associate

 

[Ludwig2000]

Not defending PAs here, but that wasn't actually part of their official name at any point. The change is Physician Assistant --> Physician Associate

Articles from the 1970s use “physician’s assistant”:
The physician's assistant: a cloudy professional status - PubMed

Its also what I always heard when I was growing up- the apostrophe s version. They dropped it at some point and now write articles about how “physician’s assistant” was never the proper term.

And note how “physician assistant” could be interpreted as “a physician who is assisting” rather than “a person who is assisting a physician.”
Now, “physician associate” is even better! - like they are a physician that is one of the partners (associates) at the clinic.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not defending PAs here, but that wasn't actually part of their official name at any point. The change is Physician Assistant --> Physician Associate

The original letter from Dr. Stead to Duke called them “physician’s assistants.” When the program was actually created a year later, it was called the “physician assistant” program and was actually pitched as “more than a nurse, less than a doctor.”

 

[GeneralVeers]

PAs should stop the nonsense and ally with us. Together we shall both wage war against the real enemy.....the DNPs!

It's like how in Game of Thrones no one would ally together to fight the Night King.

 

[sylvanthus]

Im still bitter about season 8.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

PAs should stop the nonsense and ally with us. Together we shall both wage war against the real enemy.....the DNPs!

It's like how in Game of Thrones no one would ally together to fight the Night King.

According to the PAs I know, most in the trenches PAs don’t actually want independence. The push is from the leadership and is from a place of ego, inferiority complexes, and trying to keep from being shut out of the market by NPs.

 

[PikminOC]

The problem is that midlevels are being used inappropriately. I've worked in rural ERs that are staffed solely by NPs/PAs with MDs signing their charts hundreds of miles away. Lots of specialists have their clinics completely run by PAs/NPs. So of course they want to be called 'associates' since we've given them that responsibility. The old generation dug this hole and cashed in. Now the next generation have to deal with it.

Yes I have seen mid-level nps used the same way. They set up private practices with collab doc even in another field far away. When you ask who the doctor is they don't want to even tell

 

[BoardingDoc]

According to the PAs I know, most in the trenches PAs don’t actually want independence. The push is from the leadership and is from a place of ego, inferiority complexes, and trying to keep from being shut out of the market by NPs.

Anecdotally, I've seen the same. I heard about the name change from one of the PAs who works for us and he thought it was absurd.

 

[sylvanthus]

Realllllyy hard to study atm when medicine is completely going to hell. Only a matter of time before PAs are independent as well. Whats the point in all this work when clearly it isnt valued?

 

[Oligodinero]

According to the PAs I know, most in the trenches PAs don’t actually want independence. The push is from the leadership and is from a place of ego, inferiority complexes, and trying to keep from being shut out of the market by NPs.

Can confirm. I'm technically still a certified PA, now a DO....most PAs were fine with the original title and wanted no part of this insane movement for independence. The sad reality is that the NPs gaining complete autonomy and moving towards DNP have put the profession in danger of obsolescence. Lots of PA stories over the past few years of job listings looking only for NPs and turning away PA applicants even though the PA is just as, if not more, qualified for the position. This is either because the person in charge of hiring is an RN and is looking out for fellow nurses or the doctors can't be bothered to supervise/sign off on the PA's chart...they want to hire NPs who they won't have to supervise.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

they want to hire NPs who they won't have to supervise.

These people are almost an even bigger part of the problem than the NPs.

I did work with one PA student who thought the name change was good because assistant didn’t capture what they actually do. Which is ridiculous, because it absolutely does.

 

[Oligodinero]

These people are almost an even bigger part of the problem than the NPs.

I did work with one PA student who thought the name change was good because assistant didn’t capture what they actually do. Which is ridiculous, because it absolutely does.

I kinda felt like they could call me anything they like as long as I got paid. I didn't give a rat's ass. Assistant, Associate, Mid-level, whatever. And I referred to PAs, NPs, and CRNAs as midlevels when I was a med student, often to their face. Once or twice I got called out by them. Then I told them I was a certified PA and that shut them down immediately. Them knowing you are intimately familiar with their training and limitations and how much more you learned in medical school (even before residency) makes it much harder for them argue their point.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I kinda felt like they could call me anything they like as long as I got paid. I didn't give a rat's ass. Assistant, Associate, Mid-level, whatever. And I referred to PAs, NPs, and CRNAs as midlevels when I was a med student, often to their face. Once or twice I got called out by them. Then I told them I was a certified PA and that shut them down immediately. Them knowing you are intimately familiar with their training and limitations and how much more you learned in medical school (even before residency) makes it much harder for them argue their point.

Yeah I call them midlevels too. So far no one has argued against it lol. A lot of people use the word “provider” here though, including the residents.

 

[Birdstrike]

Realllllyy hard to study atm when medicine is completely going to hell. Only a matter of time before PAs are independent as well. Whats the point in all this work when clearly it isnt valued?

It's not completely going to hell, only partly. If you step back and look at the big picture, you're still going to make more than 98% of Americans and live comfortably. Although it doesn't feel like the skill is valued in the way it seems it should be, on the bell curve of professions, your skill is/will be highly valued, much more than the average American worker. Even though the profession is not the way it used to be or the way we think it should be, doesn't mean there's not a lot of good to be had. There may be detours to be taken, but not all roads are under water or impassable on this trip.

 

[slowthai]

Yeah I call them midlevels too. So far no one has argued against it lol. A lot of people use the word “provider” here though, including the residents.

I've observed this phenomenon as well. This is what I don't get. Why would any resident or attending enjoy calling themselves or their colleagues that word? It's so bizarre. We always used to just say "resident", "attending", or "physician", when referring to ourselves individually and collectively. Like it's not that hard, smh lol

 

[southerndoc]

Sometimes I feel like I should say "hello, I'm your butler. What prescription would you like today?" Some patients are demanding with what they want whether indicated or not.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I've observed this phenomenon as well. This is what I don't get. Why would any resident or attending enjoy calling themselves or their colleagues that word? It's so bizarre. We always used to just say "resident", "attending", or "physician", when referring to ourselves individually and collectively. Like it's not that hard, smh lol

It’s like they’re afraid to upset the midlevels or something.

 

[Oligodinero]

Sometimes I feel like I should say "hello, I'm your butler. What prescription would you like today?" Some patients are demanding with what they want whether indicated or not.

100%. It seems like the chances of this happening are proportional to the income of the patient. It's nearly always the MFA-educated, upper middle class or affluent soccer moms who make these demands after intensive "research" performed at Google University. And if they don't get what they want, these Karens demand to see your attending or the charge nurse, or the DON or call their friend on the hospital board of directors, and/or leave you a bad PG survey. Hell, I've had patients call 911 from the ER lobby because they didn't get the treatment they wanted. One wanted the police to come arrest me for not treating their condition they way they felt it needed to be treated. I've also seen patients call the SBME because they didn't get the treatment they wanted. That's fun because in some states the SBME is obligated to dispatch an investigator, in person, for each and every complaint. The investigator gets there and apologizes, says they know the complaint is 100% BS, but they have to respond. Our tax and healthcare dollars at work.

In the meantime, Dr. Jenny Mcjennyson, DNP, FNP-BC, BSN, ADN, CNA, LOLWTFBBQ, LOTR, KOTOR, ROFLCOPTER agrees with whatever diagnosis her patient thinks she has, writes whatever Rx the patient wants, hold their hands and validates their concerns, and laughs all the way to the bank with her 5 out of 5 PG score. And if she misdiagnoses a patient, well....the SBME is powerless to take action against her....because she's a nurse-doctor who's supervised by the RNs of the state board of nursing.

 

[southerndoc]

I think you missed a few letters after Dr. Mcjennyson's name.

 

[Apollyon]

I think you missed a few letters after Dr. Mcjennyson's name.

Eh, as long as there are more letters after the name than in it, you're good.

 

[slowthai]

It’s like they’re afraid to upset the midlevels or something.

I mean, I've been seeing this happen all over the forums (here and reddit) and even on multiple podcasts. Like, ortho residents and attendings are actually participating in this stupidity.

I think what it comes down to is really just programming. These administrators are trying to destroy the delineation between us and midlevels, so they obfuscate and call everyone that word, as you well know. I think people have just been beat over the head with it so many times that they subconsciously start to use it on themselves.

 

[maxxor]

It’s like they’re afraid to upset the midlevels or something.

This is a learned behavior after they’ve not been supported by their attendings.

 

[DocEspana]

PAs should stop the nonsense and ally with us. Together we shall both wage war against the real enemy.....the DNPs!

It's like how in Game of Thrones no one would ally together to fight the Night King.

too soon

 

[Doxycycline25]

Moving from a residency training University program with no Midlevels (except in ED) to a large system where I will be an attending with PAs. Worried about how to interact with them since they are obviously not residents or doctors but have been there for a longer time then me ! Wonder how it will come off, everyone told me to set boundaries from the start so that the PAs don't think that they can run the show. Any advice from those who have worked with PAs? I am very pro doctor/resident/med-student but don't want to appear hostile to the PA/NP

 

[betamale]

Moving from a residency training University program with no Midlevels (except in ED) to a large system where I will be an attending with PAs. Worried about how to interact with them since they are obviously not residents or doctors but have been there for a longer time then me ! Wonder how it will come off, everyone told me to set boundaries from the start so that the PAs don't think that they can run the show. Any advice from those who have worked with PAs? I am very pro doctor/resident/med-student but don't want to appear hostile to the PA/NP

Depends on the culture. I felt the CMGs wanted to treat PAs like residents and wanted me to see their pts, probably to increase billing. Most places, PAs are pretty independent. Although, I don't think I ever got paid for their charts. The CMGs passed it off as part of my hourly pay. TBH, the med directors, deputy med dirs should be reviewing and signing their chart. Is it even legal since I'm not their supervising doc on their license.

Job market so sad, I actually applied for some PA/NP openings...I guess we can crowd them off eh 🥵

 

[Oligodinero]

Moving from a residency training University program with no Midlevels (except in ED) to a large system where I will be an attending with PAs. Worried about how to interact with them since they are obviously not residents or doctors but have been there for a longer time then me ! Wonder how it will come off, everyone told me to set boundaries from the start so that the PAs don't think that they can run the show. Any advice from those who have worked with PAs? I am very pro doctor/resident/med-student but don't want to appear hostile to the PA/NP

Tell them from the start you want to be presented each and every patient. Get to know them, their strengths and weaknesses, then decide how much slack you want to give them. This is a totally reasonable thing for a new SP to expect when supervising new (to you) MLPs and it's your right since you'll be the one ultimately responsible for the patient. I think you'll find some MLPs can't be trusted further than you can throw them, most work hard and will carry their weight, and a couple will be superstars, outshine their peers, and make your job easier.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I've observed this phenomenon as well. This is what I don't get. Why would any resident or attending enjoy calling themselves or their colleagues that word? It's so bizarre. We always used to just say "resident", "attending", or "physician", when referring to ourselves individually and collectively. Like it's not that hard, smh lol

I think some of it comes from writing policies - as someone who used to do that in their former life, it is easier to say "provider" than "physican, NP, PA, mid-wife, DPM, etc" when anyone who has prescribing authority can order said drug, procedure, etc. Although I 100% agree there needs to be proper deliniation between a physician and pretty much everybody else, I generally never use the word unless I have to it the above situations.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

I’m not a fan of this “Physician Associate” nonsense. It’s a bunch of mumble jumble. I mean I have lawyer friends that are “associates” at law firms… They are still lawyers but referred to associates. In the academic world you have associate, assistant and emeritus professor etc… they are still professors. The caveat here is that PAs are not physicians… and with this new name change proposal, it’s as if they are trying to blur that line (and almost confuse patients and the general population) on purpose!!!

 

[deleted860607]

Hi all,

Recently accepted into PA school and will be starting this Fall! Decided to browse the forums to see opinions on the proposed title change and thought I'd give my opinion as a soon-to-be PA student. Based on my experience, most PAs I've worked with in my clinical experience find the title change to be pretty baseless and honestly don't really care, lol. And as one making the conscious decision to become a PA, I can say that I honestly don't really care about what they decide to call the profession. Our PA program director even told me she doesn't feel changing "Assistant" to "Associate" will do anything to stop patients from asking questions (it isn't any less confusing than 'Physician Assistant' either. 🤣). I can definitely see this push for autonomy coming from PAs in rural areas where they're sometimes the sole provider(s) available to patients. I can personally say I am not interested in full autonomy nor am I interested in making critical medical decisions without supervision. I chose this path because I found the role of a PA to be a good fit for me personally and am hoping to be a valued member of the healthcare team.

(Just hoping to throw this out there to show that not all PAs or PA Students see this change as a good or necessary thing. It honestly kinda irritates me that there's a lot of PAs/PA Students celebrating this like the Second Coming of Christ, Lmao.)

 

[GassYous]

Hi all,

Recently accepted into PA school and will be starting this Fall! Decided to browse the forums to see opinions on the proposed title change and thought I'd give my opinion as a soon-to-be PA student. Based on my experience, most PAs I've worked with in my clinical experience find the title change to be pretty baseless and honestly don't really care, lol. And as one making the conscious decision to become a PA, I can say that I honestly don't really care about what they decide to call the profession. Our PA program director even told me she doesn't feel changing "Assistant" to "Associate" will do anything to stop patients from asking questions (it isn't any less confusing than 'Physician Assistant' either. 🤣). I can definitely see this push for autonomy coming from PAs in rural areas where they're sometimes the sole provider(s) available to patients. I can personally say I am not interested in full autonomy nor am I interested in making critical medical decisions without supervision. I chose this path because I found the role of a PA to be a good fit for me personally and am hoping to be a valued member of the healthcare team.

(Just hoping to throw this out there to show that not all PAs or PA Students see this change as a good or necessary thing. It honestly kinda irritates me that there's a lot of PAs/PA Students celebrating this like the Second Coming of Christ, Lmao.)

Yeah yeah yeah heard it all before you didn't even start yet and the indocrination already began

 

[deleted860607]

Yeah yeah yeah heard it all before you didn't even start yet and the indocrination already began

Not sure if that's meant to be intimidating or insulting. Either way, sorry to be a nuisance. Lol.

 

[southerndoc]

@bioman23 @GassYous is just stating that we hear the same thing over and over on here. What you're saying is the same thing as I have a cousin/friend/relative who is a PA, etc.

 

[deleted860607]

@bioman23 @GassYous is just stating that we hear the same thing over and over on here. What you're saying is the same thing as I have a cousin/friend/relative who is a PA, etc.

Yes, as I've met plenty of PAs and NPs who unfortunately see themselves as capable of being independent. Likewise, I've met plenty of others who are comfortable in their scope and aren't out for independent practice or to confuse patients.

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. Lol. I'm just letting my thoughts and position out. Whether you choose to believe it or not is entirely up to you.

 

[Birdstrike]

Hi all,

Recently accepted into PA school and will be starting this Fall! Decided to browse the forums to see opinions on the proposed title change and thought I'd give my opinion as a soon-to-be PA student. Based on my experience, most PAs I've worked with in my clinical experience find the title change to be pretty baseless and honestly don't really care, lol. And as one making the conscious decision to become a PA, I can say that I honestly don't really care about what they decide to call the profession. Our PA program director even told me she doesn't feel changing "Assistant" to "Associate" will do anything to stop patients from asking questions (it isn't any less confusing than 'Physician Assistant' either. 🤣). I can definitely see this push for autonomy coming from PAs in rural areas where they're sometimes the sole provider(s) available to patients. I can personally say I am not interested in full autonomy nor am I interested in making critical medical decisions without supervision. I chose this path because I found the role of a PA to be a good fit for me personally and am hoping to be a valued member of the healthcare team.

(Just hoping to throw this out there to show that not all PAs or PA Students see this change as a good or necessary thing. It honestly kinda irritates me that there's a lot of PAs/PA Students celebrating this like the Second Coming of Christ, Lmao.)

Congrats on the acceptance. And for what it's worth, I think this is a pretty reasonable post.

 

[Splenda88]

I can definitely see this push for autonomy coming from PAs in rural areas where they're sometimes the sole provider(s) available to patients. I can personally say I am not interested in full autonomy nor am I interested in making critical medical decisions without supervision. I chose this path because I found the role of a PA to be a good fit for me personally and am hoping to be a valued member of the healthcare team.

(Just hoping to throw this out there to show that not all PAs or PA Students see this change as a good or necessary thing. It honestly kinda irritates me that there's a lot of PAs/PA Students celebrating this like the Second Coming of Christ, Lmao.)

I see the use of that phrase a lot from midlevels.

Why wouldn't you or anyone else be valued? Reasonable individuals value the people they work with regardless of title or where they are in the totem pole.

 

[deleted860607]

I see the use of that phrase a lot from midlevels.

Why wouldn't you or anyone else be valued? Reasonable individuals value the people they work with regardless of title or where they are in the totem pole.

Absolutely agree. A lot of midlevels I work with had bad experiences with some of their supervising docs who either refuse to work with them or just don't appreciate just how much of an impact they really have on patients when practicing within their designated scope (the supervising underutilizing or refusing to utilize a PA or NP's services).

Couple that with some of the toxicity we see on websites like SDN or Reddit, with some claiming midlevels shouldn't even exist or should be replaced (that's a whole different topic), you end up getting a ton of midlevels who feel the need to just reiterate that they really are an essential part of healthcare and leave a positive impact on patients.

It's really just a whole cycle of toxicity in going back and forth between PAs/NPs and Physicians when really we all went into the medical field to do what's best for patients while practicing with passion.

 

[Angry Birds]

PAs should stop the nonsense and ally with us. Together we shall both wage war against the real enemy.....the DNPs!

It's like how in Game of Thrones no one would ally together to fight the Night King.

Not really. I think they all want to erode the status of physicians.
And by "they all," I mean their organizations... not each and every one of them.

 

[Splenda88]

H.R. 2654 forces Medicare to treat chiropractors and MDs as equals

Chiropractors are deceptively trying to sell H.R. 2654 as expanded Medicare coverage for musculoskeletal conditions. The bill actually mandates that Medicare treat chiropractors and medical doctors as

sciencebasedmedicine.org

 

[GeneralVeers]

H.R. 2654 forces Medicare to treat chiropractors and MDs as equals

Chiropractors are deceptively trying to sell H.R. 2654 as expanded Medicare coverage for musculoskeletal conditions. The bill actually mandates that Medicare treat chiropractors and medical doctors as

sciencebasedmedicine.org

The might as well just certify homeopathic medicine, faith healers, and witch doctors too.

 

[Birdstrike]

I think they all want to erode the status of physicians.

Exactly.

 

[RustedFox]

The might as well just certify homeopathic medicine, faith healers, and witch doctors too.

Chiropractors. UNGHH.
Talk about "things that don't exist".

I read a "chiropractic x ray interpretation" in a chart recently, then saw the films.

Lies. They (chiropractors) will just straight make things up.

 

[Birdstrike]

Chiropractors. UNGHH.
Talk about "things that don't exist".

I read a "chiropractic x ray interpretation" in a chart recently, then saw the films.

Lies. They (chiropractors) will just straight make things up.

Did you like all those red lines they drew on the films? Fancy.