- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Frustrated
- Thread starter Dermpath
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
NP and PA are totally unrelated practice paths to physician. You are never qualified to be n NP or PA by virtue of medical training. MD plus intern year allows you to get a license and may qualify you for some urgent care moonlighting type stuff, but as an mD, and only if you are licensed.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
I am licensed, since I completed intern year. When you say urgent care do you mean like one of those care clinic type things at Target/walmart?
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,845
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 4,641
- Location
- The Alamo
- Resident [Any Field]
No, you also need a state license. You'll also want malpractice coverage including tail, a DEA license, and probably ATLS/PALS/ACLS etc.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,678
- Reaction score
- 72
- Points
- 4,806
- Attending Physician
From what people have said when this topic has come up before, your best bets are probably home care visit companies and urgent cares - but clinical jobs for docs who aren't board eligible at least are not that easy to come by, so it's not guaranteed.
I do think that it would be logical if a doc who had done an internship should work in the capacity of a PA, but unfortunately there are a lot of systematic barriers to that happening.
I do think that it would be logical if a doc who had done an internship should work in the capacity of a PA, but unfortunately there are a lot of systematic barriers to that happening.
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2004
- Messages
- 1,922
- Reaction score
- 123
- Points
- 4,746
- Attending Physician
If you're looking for moonlight/locum tenens jobs, asking your fellow coresidents may help. Moonlighting gigs usually involve urgent care centers, ERs, LTACs or nursing homes.
You'll need a full, unrestricted medical license from your state (you may only have a temporary training permit if your residency obtained it for you) in order to apply for these jobs. Likely you'll need a DEA number, BLS/ACLS and insurance coverage as well. Then applying for hospital privileges can take months.
You'll need a full, unrestricted medical license from your state (you may only have a temporary training permit if your residency obtained it for you) in order to apply for these jobs. Likely you'll need a DEA number, BLS/ACLS and insurance coverage as well. Then applying for hospital privileges can take months.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
Yes, during residency contract you are working under a training license owned by the hospital. Once that contract is up, you are unlicensed. If you finished all the Steps and intern year, you can apply for your own license with the state. Annual fees are not cheap and can take 4-5 months before they issue you a license.
And no, you are not ever legally qualified to work as a PA or NP on this path -- those are totally separate fields, just like dentistry, law, pharmacy and other things you cannot practice without going to a different school and passing different tests. Put that out of your head.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2012
- Messages
- 1,694
- Reaction score
- 1,948
- Points
- 5,421
- Attending Physician
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what the OP is asking, but to me he is not asking if he can take the test and be licensed as a PA or NP, what he is asking is can he perform the same work as an NP or PA (i.e. supervised by a board certified physician/surgeon) with a full medical license (after completing Step 1-3 and internship) but without completing residency.
To the OP, from what I can tell, nothing is stopping you from practicing in that capacity. The major issues, as mentioned, are insurance and convincing a practice to take you on in that capacity.
For what it is worth, it is rather atrocious that at the moment someone completing medical school can not function as a midlevel provider without further training. There are numerous scenarios where this would be beneficial (such as your with the gap year). True, medical school is meant to train physicians capable of independent practice, but there should be the ability to practice in a supervised capacity directly out of school.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Ok, ok!
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Yes this is what i'm asking. I don't want to be licensed as an NP/PA, i just wanted to see if I can work as a PA in particular for this year until I start residency. That is all. I have contacted a few places, some tell me it depends, some I think have no clear understanding of the situation, etc. I am not sure what I can do in this timeframe, I don't want to just sit home and do nothing! I thought the possibility to work as a PA/NP would be a decent one, with MD/DO supervision. But maybe I am wrong on this.
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2011
- Messages
- 172
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I may be wrong, but I think you will have a hard time getting hired to work in the same capacity as a PA/NP because of malpractice. Because you have a MD/DO, you can't be insured as a PA/NP which is a lot less that of a MD/DO. Technically, if you have a MD and a full license then you don't need supervision, and therefore you would need full physician insurance. I am not sure if insurance company will provide you with malpractice insurance if you have not completed a residency. Again, I am just speculating here.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
That sucks then.
I wanted to work in the medical field for this year, but I guess that's not an option then. I'm waiting to hear about a few fellowships, but otherwise not sure what to do. I guess I can look into consulting gigs, but not sure 1 year is enough. Any other suggestions of where I can look/what I can do this year?
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2005
- Messages
- 22,391
- Reaction score
- 19,746
- Points
- 8,731
- Attending Physician
I think you're missing some important factors here.
1. The jobs being advertised are for licensed mid-level practitioners. It's not clear from your posts whether you have an unlimited medical license in your state.
2. MLPs practice under different rules than do trainee physicians and those rules are state dependent. Unlicensed physicians can only get a trainee license if they are part of an approved training program. You can' just walk into somebody's office and ask them to sponsor you for a training license.
3. If you do have an independent medical license, you could conceivably do the same work that a PA or NP would be hired to do, BUT, you'd be subject to the same legal requirements that your "supervising" physician is. In other words, you need your own malpractice insurance (which will be difficult, although probably not impossible to come by), your own hospital privileges (if necessary) and your own insurance approval (which has another name that I'm not remembering right now).
In other words, you can function like a resident if/when you are a resident. You can function like an MLP if/when you are an MLP. Neither of those appear to apply to you at this moment.
Do I think you are capable of providing the same level of service/care as an MLP? Probably. But that's not in any way the issue here. You can pretend that it is, but you will be wrong.
Finally, the people looking to hire MLPs for their clinics are probably not looking for someone who's only going to work for them for 6-12 months. They're looking for permanent employees. That, not the license/liability issue may be your biggest hurdle.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Sadly I think you are right. 🙁 I am not sure what to do then. I can't just sit home all day for the next year or so! I would love to start residency early but don't think that's an option. I guess I can't do PA/NP jobs since I am obviously not licensed as such. I don't know what else to do!! Suggestions would be absolutely welcome. Is it crazy to do a residency for a year and then quit?
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 15,453
- Reaction score
- 7,871
- Points
- 6,641
- Attending Physician
Yes, it's a little crazy. Further, it's a terrible thing to do to a program - provide them with a resident for a year, and then leave them with a gap after you just quit. If your plan is to only be there for a year, don't snatch up a categorical spot. Leave it for someone who is planning on staying until they graduate.
Can't you find a research position or something?
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Ok. I also need to get paid, I can't indefinitely work for free. Research positions are hard to come by, are usually not paid either.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 15,453
- Reaction score
- 7,871
- Points
- 6,641
- Attending Physician
You could try calling a locums company, and seeing if they help you with anything, since you have an unrestricted state license. It might not be feasible, but it's worth a shot.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Well I guess according to what some other posters said, I may be wrong on the license type. I had a license when I was an intern but have not applied for a license otherwise.
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2011
- Messages
- 172
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
most likely you have a training license. most states needs at least 1 year of residency and completion of step 3 before you can apply for a full license.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Yes, most likely it is a training license. I've completed 1 year of residency (internship) and then will start residency again in the upcoming year so I guess I don't have a full license yet. This really makes things difficult! I'm not sure what to do.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2002
- Messages
- 43,316
- Reaction score
- 27
- Points
- 4,716
- Location
- wherever I go, there I am
- Attending Physician
sounds like you need to apply for a full, unrestricted license
Here's info with basic state licensure requirements and contact information
Here's info with basic state licensure requirements and contact information
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2004
- Messages
- 1,922
- Reaction score
- 123
- Points
- 4,746
- Attending Physician
Did you at least take Step 3 during your intern year? You could apply for a full state medical license, DEA number and then apply for hospital privileges and get a locums gig...all this would take 3-6 months though if you haven't taken Step 3 yet.
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2006
- Messages
- 10,860
- Reaction score
- 16,000
- Points
- 8,086
- Attending Physician
I'm late to the party here, and the above posters are correct. You have an MD (or a DO, or an MBBS, or equivalent), so any job you get providing clinical care will need to be a physician level job. No one is going to hire you as an NP/PA. As also mentioned, you only want to work for 1 year, so you need a temporary position.
You really only have one clinical path for work:
Take Step 3 if you haven't already.
Get your FVCS profile created and all information uploaded. Start now regardless of what you do this year.
Get a full license in the state you live in (if you're a US grad you can usually do so after 1 year of training, but each state's rules are different)
Get a DEA license/number (federal)
Get a state DEA license (if your state has one, some do, some don't)
Once you have all that done, you would now look for moonlighting jobs. These are "one off" shifts -- a night in an ED, or covering a nursing home over the weekend, or nights in a hospital. Many places hire out these shifts to anyone willing to do them. You can make quite a bit of money doing this -- my institution pays about $1200-1500 per night for moonlighting (a 10-12 hour shift). We moonlight Friday and Saturday nights only.
Some residency programs have moonlighting slots designed for residents. Our ICU sometimes has shifts that need to be covered, and you're treated just like a resident -- there's someone supervising what you are doing. Same with our ED. if you have a local program, you could ask. They will tend to prioritize those slots to their own residents, so unclear how many you could get.
From your post above, I assume you don't qualify for a full license. Perhaps you're an IMG, or your state requires >1 year of experience. In that case you don't have many options. One choice would be to get a license in any other state (choose whichever one you would qualify for), and then try to moonlight at a VA. Since VA's are federal, you can work at any one with any state license. before trying this, you should be certain that any local VA has moonlighting opportunities, and that you don't need to have completed a residency to qualify for them.
You should expect that all that licensing above will take 4-6 months, and likely cost a few thousand dollars. So, to make money you need to make back what it cost you, plus taxes. And don't forget that you will sometimes get paid as an independent contractor, which increases the taxes you pay.
You really only have one clinical path for work:
Take Step 3 if you haven't already.
Get your FVCS profile created and all information uploaded. Start now regardless of what you do this year.
Get a full license in the state you live in (if you're a US grad you can usually do so after 1 year of training, but each state's rules are different)
Get a DEA license/number (federal)
Get a state DEA license (if your state has one, some do, some don't)
Once you have all that done, you would now look for moonlighting jobs. These are "one off" shifts -- a night in an ED, or covering a nursing home over the weekend, or nights in a hospital. Many places hire out these shifts to anyone willing to do them. You can make quite a bit of money doing this -- my institution pays about $1200-1500 per night for moonlighting (a 10-12 hour shift). We moonlight Friday and Saturday nights only.
Some residency programs have moonlighting slots designed for residents. Our ICU sometimes has shifts that need to be covered, and you're treated just like a resident -- there's someone supervising what you are doing. Same with our ED. if you have a local program, you could ask. They will tend to prioritize those slots to their own residents, so unclear how many you could get.
From your post above, I assume you don't qualify for a full license. Perhaps you're an IMG, or your state requires >1 year of experience. In that case you don't have many options. One choice would be to get a license in any other state (choose whichever one you would qualify for), and then try to moonlight at a VA. Since VA's are federal, you can work at any one with any state license. before trying this, you should be certain that any local VA has moonlighting opportunities, and that you don't need to have completed a residency to qualify for them.
You should expect that all that licensing above will take 4-6 months, and likely cost a few thousand dollars. So, to make money you need to make back what it cost you, plus taxes. And don't forget that you will sometimes get paid as an independent contractor, which increases the taxes you pay.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
I am an MD AMG, but I checked the guidelines for my state and I can't get a license, and I think it would be too complicated to get a license in another state, particularly if it takes that long and it's that $$. I saw that there are some locum jobs for medicare HP's that pay decently well, I will look into that I guess. But it sucks that the PA/NP options are non existent for me and that I can't really work in any other clinical capacity during this year. 🙁
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
Yes, in most states an IMG needs more than just intern year to apply for a state license.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
it doesn't suck any more than the fact that you can't just go and be a dentist or a lawyer without any additional schooling or licensure. These are totally different fields. They aren't a stepping stone to medicine, they are terminal degree programs in their own right, they just have overlapping functions, much as a dental hygienist has job functions that overlap with a dentist or a paralegal has overlapping functions that overlap with a lawyer, but with even higher barriers to entry.
An MD doesn't qualify you to do anything other than to be a physician. If that's not a realistic avenue, you are pretty much only qualified for those jobs any other college grad can get. A paid research gig, MCAT tutoring, etc might be options.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
I think it's very different. I don't want to be a PA/NP, just work as one for a bit. The same way you can represent yourself in small claims court and you don't need to be a lawyer. Also a hygienist is less than a dentist, an MD is obviously more than a PA/NP.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2005
- Messages
- 22,391
- Reaction score
- 19,746
- Points
- 8,731
- Attending Physician
No, it's exactly the same. I can't decide if you're being intentionally obtuse on this point or if you really don't get it.
.
Dude...we've been through this already. If you want to work as an MLP, you need to be an MLP. You're not. Game over. And since you don't have a license, even if you could convince somebody to employ you doing the work of an MLP, it's a moot point.
This analogy is hilarious...and just really, really wrong. The correct analogy is that you don't need to be a physician to decide to take Advil for a headache, put a bandaid on a cut or ice, elevate and wrap a sprained ankle.
And yet, in both situations, their job descriptions somewhat overlap. That doesn't make one into the other.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
I think the title of my thread is self explanatory --> I am frustrated. I *understand* that there are licensing issues, etc. that apparently prevent this from happening, but it leaves me with few options and causes me frustration. 🙁
Also I Pm'ed you. When you get a chance please get back to me. Thanks.
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2011
- Messages
- 385
- Reaction score
- 111
- Points
- 4,686
- Attending Physician
Didn't read the whole thread so not sure if anyone mentioned this. Check out the VA. I have heard of them hiring for late night coverage in the ED if they are really short. It's low acuity ad they might go for it if you are fully licensed.
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2003
- Messages
- 3,447
- Reaction score
- 3,093
- Points
- 5,521
- Attending Physician
That depends strongly on which VA. The ones in Atlanta and Cincinnati were both pretty high acuity (lot of cirrhotic bleeders), although the Cincy VA ED was pretty low volume.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2005
- Messages
- 22,391
- Reaction score
- 19,746
- Points
- 8,731
- Attending Physician
I get that you're frustrated. But this is all stuff you should have known and seen coming.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2005
- Messages
- 22,391
- Reaction score
- 19,746
- Points
- 8,731
- Attending Physician
As the OP has kind of sort of mentioned (but mostly danced around), he (?) does not have a license and is not eligible for one in the state where he is (and is apparently unwilling to move) and so can't get this kind of a job.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2010
- Messages
- 248
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,571
- Non-Student
Actually, don't lawyers practice as paralegals if they're out of jobs? I knew somebody who did that in NY and he had a law licence in Fl. And I'm pretty sure that in terms of knowledge a dentist could work as a dental hygienist.
I agree with the points made that there are legal/regulatory/admin issues that would prevent the OP working as a PA/NP. But I have a hard time believing anybody here is suggesting that knowledge-wise he would be incapable
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
No, not dancing around it, trying to figure out what *type* of license I got. I have a license, but I guess it's not a *full unrestricted* one so I guess I did not think/realize this initially. Cannot move unfortunately.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2004
- Messages
- 233
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 4,551
- Resident [Any Field]
You could try finding a non-clinical job or consulting work.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2005
- Messages
- 22,391
- Reaction score
- 19,746
- Points
- 8,731
- Attending Physician
If you directly sent your state medical board a whole bunch of stuff including your diploma, fingerprints, paid for a background check and then wrote them a massive check for which you received a piece of paper with your name and the state seal in the mail, then you have a real license. If your residency program coordinator took care of all that for you and only made you sign a piece of paper at some point before you showed up for orientation, then you only have a training/limited license.
And yes, you are dancing around this. I'm finding it difficult to believe that you don't know or understand the difference between the two. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person otherwise.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 1
- Resident [Any Field]
Dude, as I mentioned before, I initially did not realize this. No one is dancing around anything. I initially thought that I could use my license to work but I guess I was wrong. So now I go back to square one I guess and try to see what I can do to occupy my year in a productive fashion, which royally sucks.
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,845
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 4,641
- Location
- The Alamo
- Resident [Any Field]
Actually this might be a valid option... as a federal entity the VA requires any state license not necessarily the state where the building is physically located. So even though the OP apparently doesn't meet licensure criteria in his home state for whatever reason, he could potentially get a license through a less restrictive state medical board and work there in some clinical capacity. Same with federal prisons I think.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
- Messages
- 3,124
- Reaction score
- 132
- Points
- 4,671
- Age
- 44
- Location
- Canada
- Attending Physician
How did you end up with a gap year anyway?
One suggestion I could give for work would be substitute high school teacher. Am guessing you'd qualify. It ain't much, but it'd be something.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2002
- Messages
- 43,316
- Reaction score
- 27
- Points
- 4,716
- Location
- wherever I go, there I am
- Attending Physician
Maybe at a private school but the hoops required to get a teacher's license in most states are tremendous. Private could certainly be an option as could a community college.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
"Knowledge-wise" is irrelevant. You might know more about teeth than your dentist, but that doesn't qualify you to be a dentist. As to the paralegal analogy, I agree that's not a perfect analogy, as it's a certificate program, not a professional degree, but no, law firms seeking certified paralegals generally won't hire an out of work lawyer for that role. My point is that these are not lesser included degrees within the MD/JD/DDS. These aren't steps in the progression to your own career. These are totally separate paths. So it's not useful for OP to perseverate on this point as he did multiple times in this thread. No point whining that you don't get to be a PA by virtue of having an MD, any more than whining that you can't spend a year working as a lawyer just because you have an MD.
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2004
- Messages
- 1,922
- Reaction score
- 123
- Points
- 4,746
- Attending Physician
I don't understand why you don't start the process of getting a full license, DEA number, etc. That way, if you wanted you could moonlight once all that was approved...probably 3-6 months from now.
Otherwise you may have no income for the next year.
Otherwise you may have no income for the next year.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2011
- Messages
- 286
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Attending Physician
if ur getting a license, Most positions for gp's are home Visiting Physician Jobs..or prison or indian reservation. Even Clinic Jobs r rare. Jobs for them r fading out.
U could always moonlight doing h&ps though if ur contract allows.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using SDN Mobile
U could always moonlight doing h&ps though if ur contract allows.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using SDN Mobile
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2007
- Messages
- 327
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,621
- Resident [Any Field]
Work at the VA...(Veteran's Administration)
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2007
- Messages
- 327
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,621
- Resident [Any Field]
Doh...sorry...I see others already commented on this....
