Fundamental differences between DO and MD

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

---

Members don't see this ad.

So DO's will not be able to land residencies as easily as MD's? Hypothetically speaking, what do you do if you don't land a residency? Are you screwed career-wise?

Gotta be concerned right now as a sophomore in undergrad, and gotta get my **** together

If you don't get into a residency you scramble for residencies or transitional years. It's more or less not difficult to get into a IM or pediatrics residency and as long as you pass medical school and the USMLE/COMLEX you'll get into a residency.

 

[juliedi]

One fundamental difference is that they are spelled differently. MD is spelled with the letters "M" and "D." DO is spelled with the letters "D" and "O." But don't let this difference fool you because the two have something in common, the letter "D!"

I love that this post is at the top of the page because it makes me giggle every time I see it. 👍

Edit: Juuuuust kidding... since it's not the top of the current page

 

[Wilf]

The only real difference between MDs and DOs is in the mind of a pre-med.

I don't think that's true. I'm a second year and I still recognize the differences between MD and DO. I've talked to a few non medical friends about it and they said they prefer to go to MDs. I would go to a DO, but only if they came recommended from another doctor (MD).

 

[JaggerPlate]

I don't think that's true. I'm a second year and I still recognize the differences between MD and DO.

Well there are definitely differences in the training model (OMM), but I think what most people are referring to is the fact that in clinical practice, it's essentially impossible to tell a DO apart from a MD. I worked in an ER for two years and didn't know until the end that the Chief of EM was a DO when I went into his office and saw his degree from CCOM. If you can see two docs in the same scrubs working side by side in essentially any department in the hospital and tell the difference between the DO and the MD ... you either have magic powers or are simply differentiating a good doc from a bad doc (which exist from both training models).

I've talked to a few non medical friends about it and they said they prefer to go to MDs. I would go to a DO, but only if they came recommended from another doctor (MD).

I'll never understand this argument - according to SDN, one of the drawbacks of the DO is that no one knows what it means. However, in the same thread, I'm supposed to believe that non-medical individuals are aware that both degrees exist and chose the MD. Are you telling them your perceived difference between the two and then asking, because seems like biased. Otherwise, 99% of people just get referrals or google '______ologist' in X geographical area and go to that doc (DO or MD).

Finally, why would you only see a DO if an MD referred you? You assume all DOs are bad physicians until cleared by an MD? All MDs know good from bad docs? All MDs are automatically good docs who you would see blindly? What if he got his MD in Mexico?

Frankly, this is probably the most bias I've seen from a medical student, and it's kind of surprising. Why do you feel this way (if you don't mind explaining)? Maybe you'll change your mind on rotations/in residency and practice.

 

[Wilf]

Frankly, this is probably the most bias I've seen from a medical student, and it's kind of surprising. Why do you feel this way (if you don't mind explaining)? Maybe you'll change your mind on rotations/in residency and practice.

Sorry if it sounded biased, but there is one thing I just can't get over when it comes to DOs: the vast majority of them would have gone to an allopathic school had they gotten in. This means that in theory they are the weaker students. When going to a doctor, for anything that could be serious anyway, I want the best possible doctor, in terms of education and knowledge. I'm not assuming that all DOs are inferior to all MDs, as that would certainly be incorrect, but it is true that DO is generally a second option. If in the future students choose to go to MD and DO schools in equal numbers my opinion would obviously change.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Sorry if it sounded biased, but there is one thing I just can't get over when it comes to DOs: the vast majority of them would have gone to an allopathic school had they gotten in. This means that in theory they are the weaker students. When going to a doctor, for anything that could be serious anyway, I want the best possible doctor, in terms of education and knowledge. I'm not assuming that all DOs are inferior to all MDs, as that would certainly be incorrect, but it is true that DO is generally a second option. If in the future students choose to go to MD and DO schools in equal numbers my opinion would obviously change.

Hmm, well, I don't want to get into a big discussion about the number of people who applied both, went where they were happy, only applied DO, wanted to go DO, etc (though I'm personally one of them), but I still would hold factors like residency training (especially in ACGME programs alongside MDs), the fact that they passed medical school and all the steps, track record as a physician, etc, above MCAT score, GPA, or lack of a state MD school. Regardless, thank you for explaining. I hope in the future you're able to see a DO (or a trend in DO applicants) that changes your mind.

 

[Wilf]

I still would hold factors like residency training (especially in ACGME programs alongside MDs), the fact that they passed medical school and all the steps, track record as a physician, etc, above MCAT score, GPA, or lack of a state MD school.

I definitely agree with you there. Like I said, I would go to a DO if I thought they would provide the best care of the options I have. But I will admit that I would not go to one who opted out of the USMLE. I see no reason why a DO student would do that unless they didn't think they could do well. Maybe I have gotten bad information but DO students themselves have told me the COMLEX is easier. In my opinion the standards for physicians should be the same independent of whether they went allopathic or osteopathic.

 

[common man]

lots of variables in this question. my limited experience at ER: no difference. you wouldn't even know without looking on the badge. when they wheel in a cardiac arrest patient the doctor takes care of him.

the path does not matter. only the destination. if you're working in the ER - you're working the ER. they don't tier the responsibility. besides, why stop at just med schools? why not college too? why not board scores? you'll say that generally the guy at a ivy league is better than the state school...but there are too many exceptions to this imo.

it's true that MD schools have more competitive stats. but you can still enter DO, be a better student, absorb the material, and be a great doctor. just like how the state school student surpasses the ivy league kid. the DO merely affords you the opportunity to prove yourself.

in substance, all that matters is your job & responsibility. in this regard, at the ER, there is no difference. in terms of superficial stuff, MD has name recognition and is commonly known. almost entirely irrelevant at the ER - but present in the minds of some. at the end of the day, when you're working 12 hour shifts at the ER, you're treating patients who have had a dog bite, cardiac arrest, dislocated foot, etc. - believe me, those letters will be the last of your concerns.

i have no affiliation with either although my dream is to work in the ER or be primary care physician within my local community (i know, not hollywood enough). the experiences of a specialist do not have enough variety for my liking (i shadowed a cardiologist) and i don't want surgery (interacting with patients >>> cutting flesh). if the residencies are significantly more advantageous for MD schools - then i say MD schools have an advantage. if you want to go DO, you can still do it. the pressure is on you to prove yourself and make only substance count - which is how good of a doctor you become - purely a function of your intelligence, hard work, character, and dedication 🙂

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

So DO's will not be able to land residencies as easily as MD's?

That's not what anyone is saying and isn't true for the vast majority of cases. Matter of fact, as already stated DOs actually have more residency options since they can apply to both osteo and allo programs (whereas MD grads cannot apply to osteo programs). There are some programs and specialties that historically tend to favor MD grads, but by the same token there are specialties that are very well-suited to DO training.

I think the overarching theme of this (surprisingly civil) discussion is that, although there are differences, broad themes, and trends to consider with each pathway it's ultimately up each individual to make the choice that is best for them and then perform to the best of their ability. If you do that then you won't have any regrets.

 

[Hah]

To me, the biggest difference is that as a MD, you have to defend your degree to someone who looks down upon or is ignorant of the Osteopathic pathway... Though that probably doesn't matter much outside the neuroses that comprises some of SDN.

 

[common man]

being a doctor is like a marathon...all that matters is the end...how competent of a doctor your are...

 

[Longshanks]

Sorry if it sounded biased, but there is one thing I just can't get over when it comes to DOs: the vast majority of them would have gone to an allopathic school had they gotten in. This means that in theory they are the weaker students. When going to a doctor, for anything that could be serious anyway, I want the best possible doctor, in terms of education and knowledge. I'm not assuming that all DOs are inferior to all MDs, as that would certainly be incorrect, but it is true that DO is generally a second option. If in the future students choose to go to MD and DO schools in equal numbers my opinion would obviously change.

I would be more concerned with a physician's residency and fellowship training, and actual clinical experience, rather than what US school they went to. But again, not that the vast majority of patients would ever know these details unless they saw your diplomas or looked you up on one of those rating websites.

If you're a good doctor you'll get referrals from other physicians and by your patients talking to others, MD or DO.

 

[willen101383]

To me, the biggest difference is that as a MD, you have to defend your degree to someone who looks down upon or is ignorant of the Osteopathic pathway... Though that probably doesn't matter much outside the neuroses that comprises some of SDN.

What makes you think that a grown man/woman that has worked his/her way through med school/residency/fellowship actually cares if a patient looks down on his/her degree. For every pt that might look down on your...there will likely be plenty more waiting to see you. Most physicians have more to worry about than where they want to med school. Besides...think of how far in the past that will be for most people. Hell I am 5 years out of undergrad and I wouldnt really care if someone made fun/doubted me because of where I went to school.

 

[dbeast]

I think this whole debate comes from the idea that MD requires a higher level of book-smarts, at least admissions wise. While this doesn't necessarily correspond to good doctor versus bad doctor, some people don't see it that way and are comforted by the MD degree because they think it implies a greater intillect. Does that sound right?

[Note: not my opinion, just trying to see if I understand the arguments]

 

[Hah]

What makes you think that a grown man/woman that has worked his/her way through med school/residency/fellowship actually cares if a patient looks down on his/her degree. For every pt that might look down on your...there will likely be plenty more waiting to see you. Most physicians have more to worry about than where they want to med school. Besides...think of how far in the past that will be for most people. Hell I am 5 years out of undergrad and I wouldnt really care if someone made fun/doubted me because of where I went to school.

I never said, nor implied that D.O. physicians cared what others thought about their medical experience... But face it, if you're a D.O., whether you care or not, someone, somewhere is going to be ignorant of your degree and would require some sort of explaination. However, like you said, no physician should ever give a flying turd. There are much more important things in life. I was merely stating that an MD would most likely not have to defend/explain their degree while a DO might have to sometime in their career.

 

[45408]

The only real difference between MDs and DOs is in the mind of a pre-med.

And program directors...

 

[willen101383]

I never said, nor implied that D.O. physicians cared what others thought about their medical experience... But face it, if you're a D.O., whether you care or not, someone, somewhere is going to be ignorant of your degree and would require some sort of explaination. However, like you said, no physician should ever give a flying turd. There are much more important things in life. I was merely stating that an MD would most likely not have to defend/explain their degree while a DO might have to sometime in their career.

Perhaps/perhaps not. If it does come up its a quick 20 second conversation I doubt anyone would mind having.

Just to put something into perspective. I remember when I was matriculating to grad school I had to get my vacc records. I needed to call up the pediatrician who I saw from birth till age 18 and when I looked up his number in googled it said Dr. X DO. I nor neither of my parents (dad is an MD) knew he was a DO for 18 years.

I understand your point...I just doubt its much of an issue in the real world.

 

[305602]

.

 

[willen101383]

I think this whole debate comes from the idea that MD requires a higher level of book-smarts, at least admissions wise. While this doesn't necessarily correspond to good doctor versus bad doctor, some people don't see it that way and are comforted by the MD degree because they think it implies a greater intillect. Does that sound right?

[Note: not my opinion, just trying to see if I understand the arguments]

Best statement in this whole thread. You hit it right on the head.

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

I think this whole debate comes from the idea that MD requires a higher level of book-smarts, at least admissions wise. While this doesn't necessarily correspond to good doctor versus bad doctor, some people don't see it that way and are comforted by the MD degree because they think it implies a greater intellect. Does that sound right?

[Note: not my opinion, just trying to see if I understand the arguments]

Yes. There are people that go to CCOM (and others) with better stats than some allopathic students. Even if they have a lower GPA this could mean a variety of things. Perhaps they went to a really tough undergrad, or are a non-traditional student that didn't care about grades at age 18, or experienced some other non-academic difficulties. The problem is that people are presumptuous. The only difference I've noticed is in the low number that go on to surgical specialties/radiology.

 

[Techmed07]

I applied to both, but I was never asked why MD over DO at an MD school. There is no way for them to know where you applied.

However, I was asked at a DO school if I applied MD.

Um wrong. Actually schools know all the other schools you apply to.

 

[Geekchick921]

Um wrong. Actually schools know all the other schools you apply to.

I'm pretty sure they just see where else you've been accepted, and not until March or so.

 

[willen101383]

Um wrong. Actually schools know all the other schools you apply to.

MD schools dont know where you applied with respect to DO. With respect other MDs they do after X date (I forget what it is)

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

I'm pretty sure they just see where else you've been accepted, and not until March or so.

i think rhino or someone brought this up in another thread. i think the details showed that after Feb 15th (not positive) that MD schools can see all of the MD places you've applied to.

 

[JaggerPlate]

And program directors...

I reserve the right to change my opinion at anytime, but I have no qualms with certain PDs showing bias to US MD students. Granted, I don't think they should walk around bashing DOs or anything like this, but MD students aren't allowed, whatsoever, to apply to the AOA residency positions, yet many DO students cry foul whenever spots are given to US MD students at the programs are familiar with. It doesn't take much to find some issues with this mentality.

However, I've been really impressed with the strides DOs have made/continue making in the ACGME world. I was blown away this past year to open a match list from AZCOM and see an ACGME derm match at Mayo in AZ and an ACGME Rad Onc match. I mean, think about the number of highly qualified MD students who wanted this spot and weren't selected. Even if it's small little leaps, there definitely seems to be more integration and lots of progress made into the ACGME world - not to mention that various other fields that are mid to 'ehh' competitive are filled with DO students in quality programs.

I never said, nor implied that D.O. physicians cared what others thought about their medical experience... But face it, if you're a D.O., whether you care or not, someone, somewhere is going to be ignorant of your degree and would require some sort of explaination. However, like you said, no physician should ever give a flying turd. There are much more important things in life. I was merely stating that an MD would most likely not have to defend/explain their degree while a DO might have to sometime in their career.

Yeah, I don't think he's making any accusations. However, I've heard from a few residents that the 'what's a DO' thing really doesn't happen much with patients in a clinic setting. One DO resident said in the pre-DO forums that he was asked 2x in a 5 (I think) year residency and each time it was a 20 second conversation and a happy patient. 99% of patients just want a competent, understanding physician and when you walk through the door and introduce yourself as Dr X ... I just don't see much inquisition going on (if they even notice, don't already know, or simply don't care).

Yes. There are people that go to CCOM (and others) with better stats than some allopathic students. Even if they have a lower GPA this could mean a variety of things. Perhaps they went to a really tough undergrad, or are a non-traditional student that didn't care about grades at age 18, or experienced some other non-academic difficulties. The problem is that people are presumptuous.

Nicely said 👍

Um wrong. Actually schools know all the other schools you apply to.

Since AMCAS and AACOMAS are different services, I don't think they overlap (meaning MD schools wouldn't know what DO schools you applied to unless you told them and vice versa).

 

[willen101383]

Yes. There are people that go to CCOM (and others) with better stats than some allopathic students. Even if they have a lower GPA this could mean a variety of things. Perhaps they went to a really tough undergrad, or are a non-traditional student that didn't care about grades at age 18 or experienced some other non-academic difficulties. The problem is that people are presumptuous. The only difference I've noticed is in the low number that go on to surgical specialties/radiology.

That was me and my exact reason I focused my energy toward DO. Granted I had a solid MCAT and a 3.75 graduate GPA...I wasnt grown up enough at age 18-21 to know that I wanted med school...and certainly wasnt driven enough to get the grades as an undergrad. My undergrad GPA was so bad that even when you averaged 70+ credits of As in grad school it still didnt even get me to 3.0.

I think my graduate performance/MCAT shows that I have more than enough book smarts to make it in med school (not to mention I am performing very well in med school).....but sure..perhaps some people will think I am less intelligent than someone at an MD school.

Could I have gotten into an MD school? Ill never know because I never applied to any outside my dads alma mater which I never would have attended due to location/my personal issues with being helped into school by my dads affiliation. It seemed like DO schools were focused on what I had done to remediate my situation and what I had done career wise since undergrad...while the MD school seemed focused on things I had done when I was an immature undergrad. Sucks...but I am perfectly happy @ PCOM and have zero worries about my future!

 

[Parts Unknown]

Ehh ... in so many words, I have. Many times, people assume that MD school = automatic derm, integrated PRS, ENT, etc,

Sorry, not buying it. If there is anything that premeds are good at, it's analyzing and obsessing over competition.

However, my whole point is that it's highly unlikely period (2.6% versus 3.9% in my earlier example),

That's sort of how this line of argument always goes, isn't it? Someone will assert that DOs have plenty of access to highly competitive fields, but in the next breath those fields aren't very significant because only a small number of highly accomplished people match into them. It's difficult to have it both ways.

Furthermore, you are correct that 3.9% isn't a very large proportion, but it's also only one specialty. Perhaps we could throw on neurosurgery (191 spots), dermatology (360), ENT (280), rad-onc (157), plastics (106)... that's a total of 1,750, which takes us from 3.9% to 10.4%.

In other news, how about that Orange Bowl halftime show?

 

[willen101383]

Jagger I TOTALLY agree with you and ive said that many times on here. I have zero issue with the bias within reason because essentially why should we be allowed into ACGME when there is no reciprocity.

But the cynic in me knows that the PDs with bias arent biased because of this...theyre biased because they see DOs as inferior candidates. Oh well.

 

[WingedOx]

I was more impressed with the "stupid lineman play" in the first half. Poor guy.

 

[Techmed07]

I reserve the right to change my opinion at anytime, but I have no qualms with certain PDs showing bias to US MD students. Granted, I don't think they should walk around bashing DOs or anything like this, but MD students aren't allowed, whatsoever, to apply to the AOA residency positions, yet many DO students cry foul whenever spots are given to US MD students at the programs are familiar with. It doesn't take much to find some issues with this mentality.

However, I've been really impressed with the strides DOs have made/continue making in the ACGME world. I was blown away this past year to open a match list from AZCOM and see an ACGME derm match at Mayo in AZ and an ACGME Rad Onc match. I mean, think about the number of highly qualified MD students who wanted this spot and weren't selected. Even if it's small little leaps, there definitely seems to be more integration and lots of progress made into the ACGME world - not to mention that various other fields that are mid to 'ehh' competitive are filled with DO students in quality programs.



Yeah, I don't think he's making any accusations. However, I've heard from a few residents that the 'what's a DO' thing really doesn't happen much with patients in a clinic setting. One DO resident said in the pre-DO forums that he was asked 2x in a 5 (I think) year residency and each time it was a 20 second conversation and a happy patient. 99% of patients just want a competent, understanding physician and when you walk through the door and introduce yourself as Dr X ... I just don't see much inquisition going on (if they even notice, don't already know, or simply don't care).



Nicely said 👍



Since AMCAS and AACOMAS are different services, I don't think they overlap (meaning MD schools wouldn't know what DO schools you applied to unless you told them and vice versa).

True True. TMDAS includes TCOM and best believe when my friend interviewed at an MD school in Texas they asked him why he did not apply to TCOM. What he answered I do not know.. lets just say he has a 34 MCAT and a 3.8 GPA and has yet to prematch to any of the 6 schools he interviewed at. Superiority complex that naviie premeds have about DOs are unfounded and can actually be harmful when they apply to MD schools.

 

[christina30]

Sorry, not buying it. If there is anything that premeds are good at, it's analyzing and obsessing over competition.



That's sort of how this line of argument always goes, isn't it? Someone will assert that DOs have plenty of access to highly competitive fields, but in the next breath those fields aren't very significant because only a small number of highly accomplished people match into them. It's difficult to have it both ways.

Furthermore, you are correct that 3.9% isn't a very large proportion, but it's also only one specialty. Perhaps we could throw on neurosurgery (191 spots), dermatology (360), ENT (280), rad-onc (157), plastics (106)... that's a total of 1,750, which takes us from 3.9% to 10.4%.

In other news, how about that Orange Bowl halftime show?

But it has and does come up. Premeds, as "obsessive" as they are, can still be as woefully stupid as anyone else when it comes to DOs. Many of them do, in fact, seem to think that they'll all become neurosurgeons and that they will all match a neurosurg residency if they go to an MD school vs. a DO school.

The point being made here is that residencies like neurosurg, rad-onc, integrated prs, derm, etc. are difficult to match into REGARDLESS OF WHAT SCHOOL YOU GO TO. Either way, you have to be among the best in your class and have amazing board scores. It's far more dependent on the individual student than it is on the school you attend.

Perpetuating this rumor that DOs can't match into any programs except for community hospital FM, IM, or Peds residencies needs to stop - that clearly isn't the case anymore if you look at osteopathic schools' recent match lists.

 

[Parts Unknown]

But it has and does come up. Premeds, as "obsessive" as they are, can still be as woefully stupid as anyone else when it comes to DOs. Many of them do, in fact, seem to think that they'll all become neurosurgeons and that they will all match a neurosurg residency if they go to an MD school vs. a DO school.

Nope, sorry, still not buying it.

The point being made here is that residencies like neurosurg, rad-onc, integrated prs, derm, etc. are difficult to match into REGARDLESS OF WHAT SCHOOL YOU GO TO. Either way, you have to be among the best in your class and have amazing board scores.

I understand this point in and of itself, but it always strikes me as a non sequitur in the context of this discussion.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I was more impressed with the "stupid lineman play" in the first half. Poor guy.

You may be too young to get the (obscure) reference.

For many years the Orange Bowl halftime shows were unbelievably cheesy spectacles (even for Bowl halftime shows). They were like Rob Lowe's opening number to the 1989 Academy Awards... on turf. Dredging up the Goo Goo Dolls is downright respectable compared to the good old days.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Sorry, not buying it. If there is anything that premeds are good at, it's analyzing and obsessing over competition.

I think you misunderstood a bit or I wasn't clear ... everyone will still compete, but people think MD is the sure thing for derm, PRS, ENT, while numbers show that this simply isn't the case. This doesn't mean that every pre-med wants to chose the path of most resistance just to 'compete more,' nor does it mean they won't still cut each other's throats in med school (not the case where I go, but probably true in many situations), but many seem to have the mindset that the MD is the exact lock/key fit they need in the next step of competition (landing the most difficult residency possible). However, it's clear from the numbers that not everyone who competes into the MD school will get derm, nor will everyone who goes DO be automatically cut out.

That's sort of how this line of argument always goes, isn't it? Someone will assert that DOs have plenty of access to highly competitive fields, but in the next breath those fields aren't very significant because only a small number of highly accomplished people match into them. It's difficult to have it both ways.

Awkward reply. I've never fully understood your involvement with the DO discussions, and would love to get the scoop (I often see you post in the pre-DO/DO forums with the same information, but to my knowledge you're an MD attending) - but I digress

I don't see how these are mutually exclusive - DOs have access to every field that an MD does, but the argument becomes a bit asinine when you look at how hard it is to match into those fields from either side of the coin. Using your own example from earlier, even the MD students - who have chosen the 'easier' path, only have a 3.9 % chance (as a whole) of matching into Ortho surgery. Does this mean they don't have access to highly competitive fields either? The odds are slim both ways, and the average medical student (MD/DO) simply isn't going to have the stats/drive/connections to become a plastic surgeon regardless, so saying the chance is 2% better (as a whole) from the MD side of the coin has always just been a bit odd to me (hence why I explained).

Furthermore, you are correct that 3.9% isn't a very large proportion, but it's also only one specialty. Perhaps we could throw on neurosurgery (191 spots), dermatology (360), ENT (280), rad-onc (157), plastics (106)... that's a total of 1,750, which takes us from 3.9% to 10.4%.

Ummm of course, but then you would have to add all the DO neurosurgery spots, the dermatology spots, the ENT spots, and the PRS spots (only fellowship from the DO world) and see where it lands the chances of ROADS via MD or DO. Adding up all the ACGME spots and saying "what now" means absolutely nothing without adding up the DO spots and making a similar comparison like we did with the Ortho spots (which was your own example). Furthermore, I'm sure it's still higher from the MD side, but regardless, I wouldn't bet much money on a 90% chance I wasn't going to obtain something ... would you??

 

[WingedOx]

You may be too young to get the (obscure) reference.

For many years the Orange Bowl halftime shows were unbelievably cheesy spectacles (even for Bowl halftime shows). They were like Rob Lowe's opening number to the 1989 Academy Awards... on turf. Dredging up the Goo Goo Dolls is downright respectable compared to the good old days.

yeah, I had a coach at my HS who had a daughter who "had the honor of being selected to dance in the Orange Bowl Halftime Show!!!" and was soliciting donations to finance her trip to Miami for this fantastic honor. The whole thing was rather pathetic. To make matters worse, it was the Ashlee Simpson show where the performance was booed by the whole stadium afterwards.

/anyone want to play over/under on the number of days until Harbaugh takes the Michigan job? It would make me feel better about ranking UMich. (though Brady Hoke would be a good backup)

 

[JaggerPlate]

I understand this point in and of itself, but it always strikes me as a non sequitur in the context of this discussion.

It just seems like a necessary point of clarification when people make comments inferring that 'you need to go MD to match ortho' (like it's some landmark on a map) when the reality of the situation is that you have a 1.3% better chance of matching from a MD school and a 3.9% in general. Again though, no one is trying to deny that the odds are better (I'd be shocked to find out that AOA Ortho applicants only had a 25% unmatched rate), just that there needs to be some clarification/reality checks in the blanket statements.

 

[JaggerPlate]

True True. TMDAS includes TCOM and best believe when my friend interviewed at an MD school in Texas they asked him why he did not apply to TCOM. What he answered I do not know.. lets just say he has a 34 MCAT and a 3.8 GPA and has yet to prematch to any of the 6 schools he interviewed at. Superiority complex that naviie premeds have about DOs are unfounded and can actually be harmful when they apply to MD schools.

You're right - Texas would be a unique situation because it's all TX schools (MD and DO) under the TMDAS banner. You don't mess with Tejas ...

 

[Parts Unknown]

I think you misunderstood a bit or I wasn't clear ... everyone will still compete, but people think MD is the sure thing for derm, PRS, ENT,

I just don't think these people exist in significant numbers. I mean, we have both seen the countless Springtime threads debating the impact of school name/rank on specialty choice and/or match outcome.

Awkward reply. I've never fully understood your involvement with the DO discussions, and would love to get the scoop (I often see you post in the pre-DO/DO forums with the same information, but to my knowledge you're an MD attending) - but I digress

I like to argue over data. Call it a weakness.

Using your own example from earlier, even the MD students - who have chosen the 'easier' path, only have a 3.9 % chance (as a whole) of matching into Ortho surgery. Does this mean they don't have access to highly competitive fields either?

Ummm of course, but then you would have to add all the DO neurosurgery spots, the dermatology spots, the ENT spots, and the PRS spots (only fellowship from the DO world) and see where it lands the chances of ROADS via MD or DO. Adding up all the ACGME spots and saying "what now" means absolutely nothing without adding up the DO spots and making a similar comparison like we did with the Ortho spots (which was your own example). Furthermore, I'm sure it's still higher from the MD side, but regardless, I wouldn't bet much money on a 90% chance I wasn't going to obtain something ... would you??

Allow me to restate in the hopes of achieving greater clarity.

A minority of MD students match into competitive fields (ACGME programs).
A minority of DO students match into competitive fields (AOA programs).
No MD students match into AOA programs.
A very small number of DO students match into competitive ACGME programs.

Therefore, if one is comparing the two routes, matching into a competitive field as a DO will likely limit the candidate to AOA or dual-accredited programs.

 

[Hah]

It just seems like a necessary point of clarification when people make comments inferring that 'you need to go MD to match ortho' (like it's some landmark on a map) when the reality of the situation is that you have a 1.3% better chance of matching from a MD school and a 3.9% in general. Again though, no one is trying to deny that the odds are better (I'd be shocked to find out that AOA Ortho applicants only had a 25% unmatched rate), just that there needs to be some clarification/reality checks in the blanket statements.

I think what your neglecting to consider is the number of DO students who apply to ACGME residencies only and don't consider AOA residencies. DO students are then at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage. Sure the odds are only 1-2% higher when you're comparing ACGME with AOA applicants but you have to remember that a good percentage of DO students don't apply to AOA. ACGME residencies have always just been considered more prestigious, in better locations, and result in better job offers, especially if you were going into academic medicine.

I also think you're a bit disillusioned to the way we premeds think... No one thinks that just by getting into an MD school we'll automatically get into competitive residencies. MD schools aren't just compared to DO schools, MD schools are also compared to each other. We know that our chances are still low at an MD school to get into ortho or derm and that anyone considering going into those specialties are going to have to bust their butt. But wouldn't you still want the BEST possible chance (even if it is only by a few percent) and to be looked at without bias if you wanted to do ROAD?

I'm not saying that DO physicians are inferior in anyway. However, when it comes to ACGME residencies DO students have to work harder because program directors are just bias.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I just don't think these people exist in significant numbers. I mean, we have both seen the countless Springtime threads debating the impact of school name/rank on specialty choice and/or match outcome.

Shrug.

I like to argue over data. Call it a weakness.

Fair enough. I was just legitimately curious. Didn't know if you worked with a bad DO or something.

Allow me to restate in the hopes of achieving greater clarity.

A minority of MD students match into competitive fields (ACGME programs).
A minority of DO students match into competitive fields (AOA programs).
No MD students match into AOA programs.
A very small number of DO students match into competitive ACGME programs.

Therefore, if one is comparing the two routes, matching into a competitive field as a DO will likely limit the candidate to AOA or dual-accredited programs.

Sounds fair to me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think what your neglecting to consider is the number of DO students who apply to ACGME residencies only and don't consider AOA residencies. DO students are then at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage. Sure the odds are only 1-2% higher when you're comparing ACGME with AOA applicants but you have to remember that a good percentage of DO students don't apply to AOA. ACGME residencies have always just been considered more prestigious, in better locations, and result in better job offers, especially if you were going into academic medicine.

I also think you're a bit disillusioned to the way we premeds think... No one thinks that just by getting into an MD school we'll automatically get into competitive residencies. MD schools aren't just compared to DO schools, MD schools are also compared to each other. We know that our chances are still low at an MD school to get into ortho or derm and that anyone considering going into those specialties are going to have to bust their butt. But wouldn't you still want the BEST possible chance (even if it is only by a few percent) and to be looked at without bias if you wanted to do ROAD?

I'm not saying that DO physicians are inferior in anyway. However, when it comes to ACGME residencies DO students have to work harder because program directors are just bias.

I think for most of the ROAD specialties (probably with gas as an exception) DOs are smart enough to stick with AOA. The uphill climb to matching ACGME ROADS as a DO is no secret, and most DOs make sure they have the stats and then really hit the AOA programs (where they would like to be) hard. Additionally, I wasn't trying to lump in all pre-meds or anything (sorry if I was offensive) and there is definitely nothing wrong with increasing you chances.

 

[Wilf]

You sound like the biggest bigot I have ever heard. Are you also going to tell me you'll only go to a Harvard MD who did a residency at hopkins and a fellowship ucsf? Come on. If you've lived in the real world past 10 seconds, you'll realize that there are academic geniuses that are completely *****ic in work setting or when they have to interact with people. Being able to take exams and make it into a good school could correlate with greater knowledge. Sometimes it does not.

Being able to answer medical questions doesn't correlate with greater knowledge of medicine? Explain.

Are you next going to tell me that you won't go to a black doctor because black people's average entrance GPA is less than white or Asian doctors? Outline the specific justification why this position is different than MD vs. DO since your entire argument for it has been based on average grades.

Is it different?

Get your head out of your ass. Some DOs don't take the USMLE because they want a DO residency only where they can apply the philosophy they learn or increase their skills in it. Unless you've taken the COMLEX, you don't know anything. If you were anything close to being smart and scientifically minded as your superior MD buddies you wouldn't rely on hearsay for your facts.

It's easy to say "I didn't take the USMLE because I wanted to go into a DO residency instead of an MD."

 

[Parts Unknown]

Fair enough. I was just legitimately curious. Didn't know if you worked with a bad DO or something.

I have, but I have also worked with a great one (who is a close personal friend), and several in between. The most stinging criticisms of osteopathic medical education, AOA, and the JAOA, that I have personally encountered have actually come from DOs. Not out of shame, mind you, but out of concern for the future of osteopathic medical training and practice. MDs are generally rather oblivious to such matters.

Hmmm, perhaps it's because I got an earful on and off for four years that I gravitate towards this topic.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I have, but I have also worked with a great one (who is a close personal friend), and several in between. The most stinging criticisms of osteopathic medical education, AOA, and the JAOA, that I have personally encountered have actually come from DOs. Not out of shame, mind you, but out of concern for the future of osteopathic medical training and practice. MDs are generally rather oblivious to such matters.

Hmmm, perhaps it's because I got an earful on and off for four years that I gravitate towards this topic.

Yeah. The harshest critic I can personally think of is a DO who does so because he cares about the profession and doesn't buy some of the questionable moves made by the AOA and COCA.

 

[putyou2sleep]

There is a lot of bashing in a thread where there truly is an answer to the man's question.

There ARE FUNDAMENTAL differences between the training tracts, though not as big as most would like to assume. From my knowledge, here are two areas in which MD and DO differ:
1) OMM - the obvious one
2) There is a much greater focus on primary care specialties in osteopathic schools, particularly in the third year, where they will spend very limited time in the OR and OB ward, in a trade-off for more clinic and floor time.

Which is better is totally dependent on the individual, but there are training differences.

 

[panasonic52]

Being able to answer medical questions doesn't correlate with greater knowledge of medicine? Explain.

Well if we're talking about acceptance into med schools, majority of students apply with only an undergrad GPA under their belt. Unfortunately, undergrad doesn't teach you much about medicine at all! Pre-meds don't really know anything when it comes to medicine. We only take classes that are meant to weed you out, and they don't ask you medical questions on tests. So I can't really judge how good of a doctor someone is going to be by their undergrad performance. Like someone said, some students get their act together halfway through undergrad, but by that time he/she may not be able to get their GPA to an extremely high level.

Also, like someone else said, being book-smart doesn't really mean you're going to be a good doc. There are many facets to being a physician. A guy I knew could ace anything you threw at him, but I wouldn't let him treat me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

2) There is a much greater focus on primary care specialties in osteopathic schools, particularly in the third year, where they will spend very limited time in the OR and OB ward, in a trade-off for more clinic and floor time.

Do you have a sample MD and DO third year clerkship schedule to post? I'd be curious to see the differences.

 

[willen101383]

Do you have a sample MD and DO third year clerkship schedule to post? I'd be curious to see the differences.

Here is PCOMs
ROTATION
Advanced Clinical Skills
Elective (1)
Family Medicine
General Internal Medicine
General Surgery
Internal Medicine/Cardiology
Internal Medicine Selective
Obstetrics and Gynecology
OMM/Family Medicine/Palliative Care
Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Surgery
Winter Break

 

[JaggerPlate]

KCOM:

CORE THIRD YEAR ROTATIONS
4 weeks Family Medicine
4 weeks Rural or Underserved Family Medicine
8 weeks Internal Medicine
4 weeks Surgery
4 weeks Pediatrics
4 weeks OB/GYN
4 weeks Psychiatry
2 weeks Radiology
2 weeks Anesthesiology
8 weeks Electives (to be completed in April & May of the third year)*
2 weeks Vacation
1 week Region Testing

Granted, I'm sure not all MD schools have to do rural/underserved FM (big mission statement for a lot of DO programs), but I don't know what else they would really cover? It all seems like the 'basics' to me. Heres 4th year as well:

REQUIRED FOURTH YEAR ROTATIONS
4 weeks Family Medicine
4 weeks Critical Care
4 weeks Emergency Medicine
4 weeks Orthopedics, Neurology, OMM or Physiatry
4 weeks Pediatric Selective **
4 weeks Internal Medicine Selective **
4 weeks Internal Medicine or Surgery Selective **
14 weeks Electives **
1 week Boards
4 weeks Vacation

 

[TriagePreMed]

Being able to answer medical questions doesn't correlate with greater knowledge of medicine? Explain.

Is it different?

It's easy to say "I didn't take the USMLE because I wanted to go into a DO residency instead of an MD."

The question was being able to answer questions in a test with being a better practicing physician. Sometimes it does not. When you see a patient, you are not seeing a piece of paper with clear answers. For example, in Psychiatry, you could miss a lot if your interpersonal skills are poor. You may be able to cite 100 different medications by heart with every single side effect, but that's irrelevant if you can't make the proper diagnosis. In surgery, you can know everything about performing a colostomy, but if you don't have the physical skills or the ability to do this under pressure, you will not be the best. Don't act stupid with me. If something proves that your argument is incorrect, it's best to admit it than pretend it doesn't exist.

So can I get a clear statement from you saying "I will not go to a black doctor because statistically it's possible that their URM status got them into school with lower grades?" Or are you afraid that when it's put in racial terms you realize that your argument about DO inferiority breaks down?

It's "easy" to say that, but it can also be true to say that. Not everyone that goes to DO school is because they wish they were MD's. Last I checked, it was only a minority of DO students that got rejected into an MD program or even applied to one. It's also easy for you to say the opposite. Again, don't act stupid with me. I've pointed out some serious flaws in your thinking, but instead of addressing them or admitting they exist, you're just putting blinders on.