Future of Ophthalmology?

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John_Doe said:
Academy and Puerto Rican Eye M.D.s Block Broadest O.D. Scope-of-Practice Legislation in the Country

August 26, 2004

WASHINGTON?The American Academy of Ophthalmology joined forces with the Puerto Rico Ophthalmological Society to derail the optometry lobby?s legislative effort to dramatically expand their optometric scope of practice. Ophthalmologists blocked legislation that would have allowed the broadest optometric scope of practice in the United States.

?If P.C. 4476 would have become law, Puerto Rico would have jumped from a jurisdiction with the most patient-friendly scope of practice to the broadest scope of practice in the U.S., including current laws in Oklahoma,? said Raul Franceschi, M.D., president of the Puerto Rico Ophthalmological Society. ?This bill would have been unprecedented, and our Eye M.D.s understood that they needed to act on behalf of patients.?

This is the latest in a growing number of national optometry-led assaults on patient safety. Since 1997, this effort in Puerto Rico was the 46th attempt in 21 states by organized optometry to legislate surgical privileges and the authority to perform injection procedures.

As introduced, P.C. 4476 would have allowed optometrists to prescribe any diagnostic, topical or oral drug and enable them to perform injection procedures. In addition, the bill could have provided a ?blank check? to the optometry board to authorize optometrists to perform any surgery, including laser or cataract surgery. No state allows optometrists such an unbridled scope of practice, and the Academy saw this as an aggressive assault on patient quality care and safety.

After passing the Puerto Rican House of Representatives, the bill was stopped in the Senate, thanks in part to the efforts of the Eye M.D.s to educate legislators on the patient risks associated with the bill.

?I hope every ophthalmologist takes note that we are battling optometry across the United States, and that their assaults on patient safety are not confined to specific state borders,? said Cynthia Bradford, M.D., Academy secretary for state affairs.

The Academy has helped defeat optometric scope of practice expansion legislation it considered detrimental to patient safety in five states this year.
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Why don't patients have some input any time optometry lobbies to increase their scope of practice - it seems like it is entirely PAC driven without regard to patient care - in my opinion one of the ironic things is that the people who vote yes to increasing the scope of practice of optoms, would in reality choose an ophthalmologist if they had an eye problem.

Should this article say "patient friendly" scope of practice or "ophthalmologist friendly" scope of practice??

It's also a good thing that injections were restricted, because Lord knows if they were allowed, the streets would be littered with patients killed by having chalazions injected, or fluorescein angiograms done by crazy ODs.

Jenny

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JennyW said:
fluorescein angiograms

How much training with reading FFAs do optometry students receive during optometry school? Also, is FFA analysis taught in ALL optometry schools?

Reading FFAs is not an easy thing, and unless optometrists are trained and see numerous patients with pathology, ordering a FFA is a waste of money for the patient and tax payers. Also, if the patient needs treatment, then a new FFA is usually needed after you send the patient to an ophthalmologist.

Even if you are trained to read FFAs, why should patients have to pay for you to do a FFA for diagnosis and then pay again for another FFA for treatment?
 
Andrew_Doan said:
How much training with reading FFAs do optometry students receive during optometry school? Also, is FFA analysis taught in ALL optometry schools?

Reading FFAs is not an easy thing, and unless optometrists are trained and see numerous patients with pathology, ordering a FFA is a waste of money for the patient and tax payers. Also, if the patient needs treatment, then a new FFA is usually needed after you send the patient to an ophthalmologist.

Even if you are trained to read FFAs, why should patients have to pay for you to do a FFA for diagnosis and then pay again for another FFA for treatment?

I can't speak for all optometry schools, but it was on our licensing exam, so I'm going to make the assumption that it is taught in all schools. It certainly was at mine.

When I was in school, I read about 275-300 of them. The majority of them were diabetics and mac degen cases. There was a small number of vasular occlusive cases, and an even smaller number of histo and other more rare conditions.

Why would you need a second FFA when refering to a retinal surgeon for treatment if the referal and treatment was conducted within a reasonable amount of time?? I didn't realize that NVE can change hour to hour. :rolleyes:

Jenny
 
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JennyW said:
Why would you need a second FFA when refering to a retinal surgeon for treatment if the referal and treatment was conducted within a reasonable amount of time?? I didn't realize that NVE can change hour to hour. :rolleyes:

Jenny


You don't use FFA to decide if PRP is needed. I don't typically use FFA to see NVE, NVD, or decide if the patient needs PRP. This can be done with a macular exam using a 90D and fundus exam using a 20D. Why are you ordering FFA for NVE?! :confused:

On the other hand, one will need a recent FFA to determine treatment for ARMD lesions or other CNVM. These do change and the criteria for types of treatments evolve with the lesion.

I don't see the need for optometry to do FFAs if you all can't treat the lesions. It's wasteful to have patients pay for you to do a FFA for diagnosis and then pay again for another FFA for treatment.
 
Andrew_Doan said:
You don't use FFA to decide if PRP is needed. I don't typically use FFA to see NVE, NVD, or decide if the patient needs PRP. This can be done with a macular exam using a 90D and fundus exam using a 20D. Why are you ordering FFA for NVE?! :confused:

On the other hand, one will need a recent FFA to determine treatment for ARMD lesions or other CNVM. These do change and the criteria for types of treatments evolve with the lesion.

I don't see the need for optometry to do FFAs if you all can't treat the lesions. It's wasteful to have patients pay for you to do a FFA for diagnosis and then pay again for another FFA for treatment.

That was my mistake. I meant to say CNV changing from hour to hour, and not NVE. My apologies.

I don't understand the statement about no need for FFAs if we can't treat the lesions. I can't treat melanomas or retinal detachments either. Are you suggesting I stop dilating patients?

I'm still not clear why a 2nd one would be needed for treatment if the time frame between diagnosis and treatment was short. If I'm not mistaken, the Macular Photocoagulation study says treatment should be initiated within 72 hours of FA. What's wrong with sending a FA to a retinal surgeon for treatment of a lesion if the FA was taken within 72 hours of treatment?

Jenny
 
JennyW said:
That was my mistake. I meant to say CNV changing from hour to hour, and not NVE. My apologies.

I don't understand the statement about no need for FFAs if we can't treat the lesions. I can't treat melanomas or retinal detachments either. Are you suggesting I stop dilating patients?

I'm still not clear why a 2nd one would be needed for treatment if the time frame between diagnosis and treatment was short. If I'm not mistaken, the Macular Photocoagulation study says treatment should be initiated within 72 hours of FA. What's wrong with sending a FA to a retinal surgeon for treatment of a lesion if the FA was taken within 72 hours of treatment?

Jenny


This is assuming if all patients can see an ophthalmologist within 3 days, but if they can, then a FFA may not have to be repeated. However, a juxtafoveal CNV may change quickly so that it may become subfoveal. This is why a repeat FFA may be needed to decide between MPS laser vs PDT.

BTW, the 72 hours is an arbitrary time. The authors of the study picked 72 hours so that if a FFA was done on Friday, then patients can wait until Monday (72 hours later) to be treated. As far as I know, whether or not waiting 72 hours affects the visual outcome has never been studied.

In addition, screening for disease via dilation is different than ordering a FFA to determine treatment. I don't believe people should order tests if it will not change the treatment; in the case of optometry, it will not change if you will refer the patient or not.
 
Andrew_Doan said:
This is assuming if all patients can see an ophthalmologist within 3 days, but if they can, then a FFA may not have to be repeated. However, a juxtafoveal CNV may change quickly so that it may become subfoveal. This is why a repeat FFA may be needed to decide between MPS laser vs PDT.

BTW, the 72 hours is an arbitrary time. The authors of the study picked 72 hours so that if a FFA was done on Friday, then patients can wait until Monday (72 hours later) to be treated. As far as I know, whether or not waiting 72 hours affects the visual outcome has never been studied.

In addition, screening for disease via dilation is different than ordering a FFA to determine treatment. I don't believe people should order tests if it will not change the treatment; in the case of optometry, it will not change if you will refer the patient or not.

Those are legitimate points regarding MPS or PDT, and I understand that 72 hours is an arbitrary time. But I don't agree with the point about not changing whether the patient is refered or not. If FA can be performed to rule out small CNV, then there would be no need to refer the patient.

FA in the case of determining the extent of non perfusion in CRVO/BRVO will also affect whether a patient needs to be refered for treatment or not. If FA shows good macular perfusion and VA is improving, no tx is needed. Likewise in the case of macular NON perfusion and poor VA. In this case, laser Tx is also not indicated. Therefore, no referal would be needed.

Jenny
 
JennyW said:
FA in the case of determining the extent of non perfusion in CRVO/BRVO will also affect whether a patient needs to be refered for treatment or not. If FA shows good macular perfusion and VA is improving, no tx is needed. Likewise in the case of macular NON perfusion and poor VA. In this case, laser Tx is also not indicated. Therefore, no referal would be needed.

These are valid points too.

How many states allow optometrists to perform FFA in their practices?
 
JennyW said:
Should this article say "patient friendly" scope of practice or "ophthalmologist friendly" scope of practice??

It's also a good thing that injections were restricted, because Lord knows if they were allowed, the streets would be littered with patients killed by having chalazions injected, or fluorescein angiograms done by crazy ODs.

Jenny

Hmm...I don't think it's the injections we're worried about. Maybe the fact that the legislation would have given optometrists complete autonomy in deciding what surgical procedures they could perform worries us. I'm tired of you midlevels arguing that, "oh this little thing or that won't hurt anyone", when clearly the legislation your professions argue for go much further beyond those "little things." In this case, full surgical priveleges.

Interesting that legislation aimed at converting optometrists into full ophthalmic surgeons with self-regulating authority would ride along on a bill arguing for injections.
 
Andrew_Doan said:
"...In addition, screening for disease via dilation is different than ordering a FFA to determine treatment. I don't believe people should order tests if it will not change the treatment; in the case of optometry, it will not change if you will refer the patient or not.


Dr. Doan,

Would your above statement also include suspected diabetic macular edema?
 
Richard_Hom said:
Dr. Doan,

Would your above statement also include suspected diabetic macular edema?

I don't use FFA to diagnose CSDME. A thorough contact lens exam or Hruby lens will detect CSDME.

I use FFA to direct treatment of microaneurysms that leak or to determine if there is severe macular ischemia.
 
Andrew_Doan said:
I don't use FFA to diagnose CSDME. A thorough contact lens exam or Hruby lens will detect CSDME.

I use FFA to direct treatment of microaneurysms that leak or to determine if there is severe macular ischemia.

Dr. Doan,

Thanks,

At what point would you laser? first sign of CSDME? or when vision drops to some arbitrary threshold level? if there is a threshold level, what is your threshold level or "trigger" level?

Thanks,
 
Richard_Hom said:
Dr. Doan,

Thanks,

At what point would you laser? first sign of CSDME? or when vision drops to some arbitrary threshold level? if there is a threshold level, what is your threshold level or "trigger" level?

Thanks,

Visual acuity is not used for focal criteria.

I will perform focal laser based on the ETDRS criteria:

(1) retinal thickening involving the center of the macula within 500 microns of the FAZ center.

(2) hard exudates within 500 microns of the center of the macula if they are associated with retinal thickening.

(3) an area of macular edema greater than 1 disc area which is within 1 disc diameter of the center of the macula.

Patients can still have CSDME even with 20/20 vision; thus, focal laser may prevent vision loss if performed in a timely manner.
 
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Andrew_Doan said:
Visual acuity is not used for focal criteria.

I will perform focal laser based on the ETDRS criteria:

(1) retinal thickening involving the center of the macula within 500 microns of the FAZ center.

(2) hard exudates within 500 microns of the center of the macula if they are associated with retinal thickening.

(3) an area of macular edema greater than 1 disc area which is within 1 disc diameter of the center of the macula."


1. Would you do focal laser on an area of retinal thickening outside the 500 micron zone?

2. Would you use a IVFA to "better" visualize the area to be treated?

3. Or would you use the iVFA as a gauge outcome of laser?

TIA
 
Richard_Hom said:
1. Would you do focal laser on an area of retinal thickening outside the 500 micron zone?

2. Would you use a IVFA to "better" visualize the area to be treated?

3. Or would you use the iVFA as a gauge outcome of laser?

TIA

1) According to the ETDRS criteria, if there is retinal thickening greater than one disk area within one disk diameter of the FAZ center, then focal laser may be beneficial; thus, these areas of edema may lie outside of the 500 micron zone. Otherwise, if there is a small area (less than 1 disk area of retinal thickening outside of the 500 micron zone, then I watch closely (e.g. DFE every 2-4 months depending on the size and severity of retinopathy).

2) I don't use FFA to better visualize the area to be treated because CSDME is a clinical diagnosis that can be made with the 60D, 90D, contact lens, or Hruby lens. I may use FFA to determine which microaneurysms are leaking, which will direct treatment.

3) FFA can be used to assess the outcome of treatment and also to determine which microaneurysms are still leaking. This helps with subsequent rounds of laser. However, if there are obvious microaneurysms in areas of edema, then focal laser can be done without an FFA .

Thus, FFA is not needed for diagnosis of CSDME.
 
Richard_Hom said:
Interesting. Thanks.

Here's is a second opinion from e-medicine.com written by Baseer U Khan, MD, Staff Physician, Department of Ophthalmology, University of Toronto, Canada.

http://www.emedicine.com/oph/topic399.htm

CSME, as defined by the ETDRS, exists with any of the following findings:
-Retinal thickening within 500 mm of the center of the fovea

-Hard, yellow exudates within 500 mm of the center of the fovea with adjacent retinal thickening

-At least 1 disc area of retinal thickening, any part of which is within 1 disc diameter of the center of the fovea

Fluorescein angiography

-Fluorescein angiography is not relevant in aiding in the diagnosis of CSME but should be performed if treatment of CSME is being considered.

-It distinguishes and localizes areas of focal versus diffuse leakage, thereby guiding the placement of laser photocoagulation.

-The proximity of the leakage to the foveal avascular zone should be noted
 
Andrew_Doan said:
Thus, FFA is not needed for diagnosis of CSDME.

Absolutely. Many people forget that the C in CSME stands for CLINICALLY, not angiographically. The angiogram can then be used to identify specific areas of leakage for treatment. Until treatment is warranted by ETDRS criteria, I don't get the angiogram.

One other question. I know that PCO students, for example, don't learn how to read fluorescein angiography. How many colleges of optometry are teaching their students to identify and treat anaphylaxis?
 
This is a press release from the VVA (Aug 25, 2004).
________________________________________
New VA Policy on Laser Eye Surgery Puts Veterans' at Risk

(Washington, D.C.) ? The VA?s newly announced policy permitting laser eye surgeries to be performed by optometrists at VA facilities ?is inconsistent with the VA?s stated priority to ensure that veterans receive the highest possible quality health care,? said Thomas H. Corey, National President of Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA).

?This new policy loosens and lessens the standards of who can perform this delicate surgery,? Corey said. ? Optometrists are highly competent at examining and treating certain visual defects by methods that do not require license as a physician, but that does not make them qualified to do eye surgery. If optometrists want to perform this surgery,? Corey added, ?VVA encourages them to attend medical school and become ophthalmologists.

?For the VA to choose to allow optometrists to perform laser surgery is short-sighted and wrong-headed,? Corey said. ?Rather than being a benchmark for improved health care, it will succeed only in putting veterans at risk. VVA calls on the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to reverse this erosion of the standard of care provided to our nation?s veterans.?

http://www.vva.org/PressReleases/2004/pr04-041.htm
 
MacGyver said:
This is the holy grail that everybody is after. ODs, dentists, chiropractors, PAs, NPs, naturopaths, psychologists, physical therapists are ALL clamoring for this title.

There is not a single non-MD healthcare group that does NOT want to expand their scope of practice into the domain currently occupied by only MDs and DOs. Everybody and their brother wants in on it, and doctors are asleep at the wheel.

Your statements are general and too broad to be 100% true all of the time. I CAN tell you that your statement about dentists is false for the following reason:

We don't need to expand our scope of practice into domain currently occupied by only MDs/DOs--our scope of practice is the ONLY scope of practice that physicians don't touch.
 
ItsGavinC said:
I CAN tell you that your statement about dentists is false for the following reason:

We don't need to expand our scope of practice into domain currently occupied by only MDs/DOs--our scope of practice is the ONLY scope of practice that physicians don't touch.

The exception is Maxillofacial surgeons. In Australia a couple of years ago, they slipped a change in legislation through allowing them to expand into other surgical areas such as parotidectomies & neck dissections! It was only through a concerted effort by the general surgeons & ENT surgeons, that this was closed.
 
Veterans deserve more than lip service from candidates

Weekly Statehouse / By Mary Perren

NASHVILLE ? How would you feel if your father walked into the Veterans Administration hospital for laser eye surgery and found out a non-surgeon would be doing the procedure? That?s a very real prospect facing veterans who rely on the Veterans Healthcare System for their medical care.

That?s because, under a recently adopted directive, the VA allows optometrists ? who study for four years at accredited optometry schools but do not attend medical school or complete a hospital residency or surgical training ? to perform laser eye surgery under the supervision of an ophthalmologist.

An ophthalmologist is an eye care professional who attends school for 12 years, including four years of medical school, a yearlong internship and three more years of specialized medical training. Typically, an ophthalmologist must complete between 9,000-12,000 hours of education and training before undertaking unsupervised procedures.

During back-to-back visits to Nashville to address the American Legion National Convention, both President Bush and Sen. John Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee, underscored their commitment to ensuring veterans receive quality health care. Bush drew a standing ovation from the crowd when he pointed out that funding for VA medical care has increased 41 percent since he took office nearly four years ago.

Not to be outdone, Kerry also touted his support of additional funding for VA hospitals during his tenure in the Senate. He also vowed to improve access to health care at VA facilities.

However, neither candidate addressed this very real issue that is affecting the quality of life for veterans every day. A botched laser surgery can have permanent negative consequences. That?s a fine way to say thank you very much to the men and women who have proudly defended our nation from enemies both at home and abroad.

Several veterans? service organizations have publicly denounced the policy. Vietnam Veterans of America National President Thomas H. Corey calls it ?short-sighted and wrong headed? and says it will ?succeed only at putting veterans at risk.? The WVA is calling on the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to ?reverse the erosion of the standard of care provided to our nation?s veterans.?

The Military Order of the Purple Heart, USA has also passed a resolution opposing the standard of care. Members agreed that ?the new VA policy represents a step backward in regard to veterans? safety.?

In theory, optometrists are supposed to perform laser eye surgeries ?under the supervision? of an ophthalmologist. However, exactly what ?under supervision? means is unclear. If, in fact, it means literal supervision, why can?t the ophthalmologist perform the surgery to begin with? That would free the optometrist to do what he or she is qualified to do ? vision examinations and dispensing eyeglasses or contact lenses. This would seem to be a much more efficient use of medical resources for the VA, which in turn would lead to better patient care.

The American Legion deferred action on a resolution to address the discrepancy in vision care pending further review by staff. A spokesman says the group will take the matter up again when they meet in October in Indianapolis.

The veteran vote is considered critical in this year?s presidential election. Although questions about Kerry?s Vietnam service and Bush?s views on whether the war on terrorism is winnable have dominated much of the recent election coverage, it?s important to look beyond the smoke and mirrors and see where the candidates stand on real issues that matter to voters.

The current war is producing a new generation of veterans. Many of them will have no other option for medical care except what is offered at VA facilities. These men and women have given selflessly of themselves in first-class service to their country. They don?t deserve second-rate health care when they return home.
 
Visioncam said:
The 275-300 number doesn't compare with the number read by retina fellows.

The problem with optometrists doing FA may be analogous to the problem with small rural hospitals doing CT's prior to transfering the patient to a trauma center. The CT delays definitive treatment, are often poor quality, and is done by the small rural hospital simply to bill the patient. It doesn't change the rural ER's treatment. When involving orbital trauma, the CT's are often useless because they are not thin cuts or lack coronal views.

I have not seen too many FA's that patients brought from optometrists. The few that I have seen sometimes do not compare with ones done at the university or VA's eye clinic..."
:laugh:

Dear visioncam,

I think that that optometrists usually will refer patients to an ophthalmologist or a testing center to have the FA done. If the FA images are of poor quality, I don't believe that it is the result of the OD's actions.

Secondarily, I believe that comparing a retinal fellow with a primary care OD isn't a good comparison. Of course the retinal fellow will hae seen many more FA's. I don't believe that any OD is saying that they see as many FAs as a retinal fellow.

But I will say that an ODs who are so situated may order an FA in anticipation of treatment and would therefore have that FA available to the treating physician. I think I see no problem with an OD ordering an FA and even reading it to determine if treatment is warranted or in preparation for treatment (esp in CSDME)

Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA
 
I am ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED at the thought of optometrists doing fluorescein angiograms. This is a medical procedure. NO WAY should non-physicians be doing intravenous injections.
What are you going to do when the patient gets an allergic reaction. People die from fluorescein angiograms. There have been 3 in the past couple of years in Australia & this number would be higher without physicians being present.
Jenny W - how many resuscitation codes have you ran????
Are you happy running resuscitation codes???
Do you know what dose of adrenaline to use & how to give it?
How much experience do you have in managing an airway
Jenny W, how will you sleep at night when someone dies because you were doing a medical procedure you are not trained properly to do??

IF YOU WANT TO BE A PHYSICIAN - GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL
 
Retinamark said:
I am ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED at the thought of optometrists doing fluorescein angiograms. This is a medical procedure. NO WAY should non-physicians be doing intravenous injections.
What are you going to do when the patient gets an allergic reaction. People die from fluorescein angiograms. There have been 3 in the past couple of years in Australia & this number would be higher without physicians being present.
Jenny W - how many resuscitation codes have you ran????
Are you happy running resuscitation codes???
Do you know what dose of adrenaline to use & how to give it?
How much experience do you have in managing an airway
Jenny W, how will you sleep at night when someone dies because you were doing a medical procedure you are not trained properly to do??

IF YOU WANT TO BE A PHYSICIAN - GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL

Dear retinamark,

Before you get too upset, did Jenny W say that she actually did the injection or did she just said that she read them? I think that is a big difference. As I said, I see no problem with ODs (who are approriately trained) can read FAs for certain eye conditions.

Interesting that you hide behind your user name.

Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA
 
Richard_Hom said:
Dear retinamark,

Before you get too upset, did Jenny W say that she actually did the injection or did she just said that she read them? I think that is a big difference. As I said, I see no problem with ODs (who are approriately trained) can read FAs for certain eye conditions.

Interesting that you hide behind your user name.

Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA

Richard-
If Jenny (or you) isn't doing the injections, who is? The nurse can't push the dye. It seems that you're advocating for only ophthalmologists doing fluorescein angiograms. In some areas, an OD is the one pushing the dye, and that's the part that scares me. There are several problems I see with optoms injecting fluorescein:

1. Too many tests. Fluorescein angiography is not benign, and complications run the gamut from nausea to local skin necrosis to death. More practitioners able to order the test means more unnecessary testing.

2. Inability to handle complications. This means an inability to recognize anaphylaxis and an inability to treat it. No office, MD or OD, is prepared to fully handle anaphylaxis but if this (admittedly rare) situation should arise, the patient stands a better chance if the condition is promptly recognized and the patient is stabilized and transferred in a timely manner. Only an MD (or DO) can do that. BCLS can only get you so far.

I know all of this sounds reactionary to you, but that's the problem. Any ***** can handle the vast majority of patients that will do fine with the test. The extra training that comes along with an MD/DO degree is absolutely essential for those patients that do not fare so well.

-Kurt
 
Richard_Hom said:
If the FA images are of poor quality, I don't believe that it is the result of the OD's actions.
You obviously don't know much about doing FA's. The quality of the images are VERY dependent on the ability of the person taking the photos.

Richard_Hom said:
I think I see no problem with an OD ordering an FA and even reading it to determine if treatment is warranted or in preparation for treatment (esp in CSDME)
There are a number of problems with this.
Whoever is doing the treatment should do the angio. It is much better for a number of reasons, esp comparing pre-treatment images with post-treatment. The retinal physician may want particular types of images, eg more pictures in the transit, particular peripheral survey views. The FA is ideally tailored to the particular patient
 
Retinamark said:
You obviously don't know much about doing FA's. The quality of the images are VERY dependent on the ability of the person taking the photos..."
Dear Retinamark,

I think I was misperceived. I said that the FAs are ordered and read by the ODs. I didn't say that the ODs were actually taking the pictures.

In my opinion, FAs should be performed by competent ophthalmic photographers. The FAs I order are all performed by ophthalmic photographers at an ophthalmologic office. I'm hoping that they would know what they're doing. I don't do the FAs myself, but I will read them as would Jenny W.

I see no conflict in our posts regarding this. I think you may have assumed that the OD was taking the pictures. That is probably not the case.

Richard Hom OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA
 
Retinamark said:
I am ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED at the thought of optometrists doing fluorescein angiograms. This is a medical procedure. NO WAY should non-physicians be doing intravenous injections.
What are you going to do when the patient gets an allergic reaction. People die from fluorescein angiograms. There have been 3 in the past couple of years in Australia & this number would be higher without physicians being present.
Jenny W - how many resuscitation codes have you ran????
Are you happy running resuscitation codes???
Do you know what dose of adrenaline to use & how to give it?
How much experience do you have in managing an airway
Jenny W, how will you sleep at night when someone dies because you were doing a medical procedure you are not trained properly to do??

IF YOU WANT TO BE A PHYSICIAN - GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL

Gasp! I just went to get an allergy shot, and the nurse there gave me an injection! I forgot to ask her if she went to 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, did an internship, and a residency since she was injecting me!
And no, my doctor wasn't in! He was golfing!

We better stop all those dentists from doing injections! THink of all that epinephrine!! They should all immediately be forced to go to medical school. What's more dangerous?? I'll bet the complication rate from dental injections is higher than from FFA.

Let's be serious. Have I run resuscitation codes? No. But I've worked in 3 retinal practices and NONE of them had a crash cart. No, I have never tubed someone. But I gurantee you that none of the retinal guys I worked with would tube anyone. They would have called 911, same as I would do.

I am CPR certified and I am trained by the red cross to manage anaphylaxis. I did about 40 FFA as part of my training, and YES, we were tought to manage reactions with adrenaline (Never had to do it.) and I'm comfortable doing them.

Jenny
 
Richard_Hom said:
Dear retinamark,

Before you get too upset, did Jenny W say that she actually did the injection or did she just said that she read them? I think that is a big difference. As I said, I see no problem with ODs (who are approriately trained) can read FAs for certain eye conditions.

Interesting that you hide behind your user name.

Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA

I've done about 40 where I did the injections AND took the photos.

Jenny
 
mdkurt said:
Richard-
If Jenny (or you) isn't doing the injections, who is? The nurse can't push the dye. It seems that you're advocating for only ophthalmologists doing fluorescein angiograms. In some areas, an OD is the one pushing the dye, and that's the part that scares me. There are several problems I see with optoms injecting fluorescein:

1. Too many tests. Fluorescein angiography is not benign, and complications run the gamut from nausea to local skin necrosis to death. More practitioners able to order the test means more unnecessary testing.

2. Inability to handle complications. This means an inability to recognize anaphylaxis and an inability to treat it. No office, MD or OD, is prepared to fully handle anaphylaxis but if this (admittedly rare) situation should arise, the patient stands a better chance if the condition is promptly recognized and the patient is stabilized and transferred in a timely manner. Only an MD (or DO) can do that. BCLS can only get you so far.

I know all of this sounds reactionary to you, but that's the problem. Any ***** can handle the vast majority of patients that will do fine with the test. The extra training that comes along with an MD/DO degree is absolutely essential for those patients that do not fare so well.

-Kurt

No Kurt, you're not reactionary. I think you're very reasonable, and I enjoy our discussions.

I'm not so sure that more practitioners means more tests. This implies that people don't know the indications, and I"m not so sure that's the case. While I'm sure there would be some who would order indiscriminantly as a means of billing, I think that vast majority of people would use FA judiciously. I know lots of surgeons who do PIs on everyone. IINM, doesn't south Florida have a repuation for everyone over the age of 60 running around with PIs?

Also, we've all seen enough LASIK disasters performed by LASIK cowboys, so over use of services isn't the sole domain of optometry.

Jenny
 
JennyW said:
... They would have called 911, same as I would do.

Trouble is, by the time the ambulance arrives, the patient is dead

JennyW said:
...
I am CPR certified and I am trained by the red cross to manage anaphylaxis. I did about 40 FFA as part of my training, and YES, we were tought to manage reactions with adrenaline (Never had to do it.) and I'm comfortable doing them.
Jenny

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I can see it's pointless having these arguments, because optoms wanting to practice medicine lack the insight to understand why this is inappropriate and dangerous.
 
Retinamark said:
Trouble is, by the time the ambulance arrives, the patient is dead



A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I can see it's pointless having these arguments, because optoms wanting to practice medicine lack the insight to understand why this is inappropriate and dangerous.

Retinamark,

In the USA, almost all code blues ougside a hospital building, that means across the street from the hospital almost always requires paramedic intervention. I witnessed recently in a clinic two code blues in the last 3 months and in each instance, paramedics arrived within 3 minutes and provided life support even though 3 physicians and 3 RNs were present.

I believe that your admonition would be more applicable outside the USA or within the hospital itself. But in most circumstances, in a doctor's office, in a clinic that is separated geographically from the hospital, a crash cart and crash cart team would not necessarily alter the outcome (if these offfices or buildings had one).

Richard Hom, OD, FAAO
San Mateo, CA
 
I couldn't disagree more with this position. You are only referring to large metropolitan areas with multiple EMS companies available to arrive within 3 minutes. I have actually rotated through a large VA outpatient clinic where I have responded to several code blues along with other MDs and nurses. Most of the time, we would have patient intubated and stabilized by the time paramedics showed up. And at no time this was within 3 minutes.

And, from an experience of a medical intern, sometimes 3 minutes is all you have.
 
Richard_Hom said:
But in most circumstances, in a doctor's office, in a clinic that is separated geographically from the hospital, a crash cart and crash cart team would not necessarily alter the outcome (if these offfices or buildings had one).

Richard Hom, OD, FAAO
San Mateo, CA

Not exactly an evidence-based statement there, Richard. The outcome likely would be altered by an MD who knows how to use the contents of the crash cart. BTW, I'm not exactly sure what a crash cart team is.
 
mdkurt said:
Not exactly an evidence-based statement there, Richard. The outcome likely would be altered by an MD who knows how to use the contents of the crash cart. BTW, I'm not exactly sure what a crash cart team is.

In some clinical settings, there is a primary and secondary team for the crash cart on code blue alerts that happen within their immediate area of responsibility. On the overhead, you might hear "code blue 1" or "code blue 2" or some other variation which denotes which team is to go where. There may be a missing person on one of the primary teams and when the shift starts, the charge nurse knows which is the team that has the complete complement. In certain other cases, there may be two crash carts each manned by a different team and which may require simultaneous response by each team.

Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA
 
Richard_Hom said:
In some clinical settings, there is a primary and secondary team for the crash cart on code blue alerts that happen within their immediate area of responsibility. On the overhead, you might hear "code blue 1" or "code blue 2" or some other variation which denotes which team is to go where. There may be a missing person on one of the primary teams and when the shift starts, the charge nurse knows which is the team that has the complete complement. In certain other cases, there may be two crash carts each manned by a different team and which may require simultaneous response by each team.

Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA

Thanks, Dr. Hom. Perhaps in your next posting you can explain to me what sarcasm is.
 
mdkurt said:
Thanks, Dr. Hom. Perhaps in your next posting you can explain to me what sarcasm is.

Dear Dr "mdkurt":

My apologies. Rarely do I post with sarcasm. I mean to be understated in all cirumstances. I don't believe that sarcasm is usually productive.

Regards,
Richard Hom, OD,FAAO
San Mateo, CA
 
Retinamark said:
Trouble is, by the time the ambulance arrives, the patient is dead

They would be just as dead with the retinologist calling 911 than they would be with me calling 911 because no retinologist that I know would tube a patient even if they had the equipment to do it. (which they don't)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I can see it's pointless having these arguments, because optoms wanting to practice medicine lack the insight to understand why this is inappropriate and dangerous.

Yes. You're right that it's pointless because you are just one of a long list of people who think that allopathic medical education is the ONLY POSSIBLE path to enlightenment.

I'm glad that Doan and Kurt are around to have reasonable discussions with.

Jenny
 
JennyW said:
Yes. You're right that it's pointless because you are just one of a long list of people who think that allopathic medical education is the ONLY POSSIBLE path to enlightenment.

I'm glad that Doan and Kurt are around to have reasonable discussions with.

Jenny

Yes, the only possible path to MEDICAL practice (ie surgery / laser or any type) should be MEDICAL education. If only you could see this too.
If you want to do MEDICAL procedures, to have any respect, and any ability to do it safely, you need a MEDICAL education.

If you behave reasonably & don't try to expand into areas outside your area of competence, you will be a respected & valued member of the health care team. If you become a radical & try to practice outside the boundaries of what is reasonable, you will lose that respect.
 
To the cowboy wanna-be surgeon optoms, we can ask the question:

"Would you want your grandmother to have surgery by someone who has done 4 years of training & can occasionally get it right, or someone who has done 10-15 years of training to prepare themselves for every possible scenario?"

Why should someone's grandma suffer just because some optoms lacking insight & morals want to earn more money without doing the proper training?
 
Retinamark said:
To the cowboy wanna-be surgeon optoms, we can ask the question:

"Would you want your grandmother to have surgery by someone who has done 4 years of training & can occasionally get it right, or someone who has done 10-15 years of training to prepare themselves for every possible scenario?"

Why should someone's grandma suffer just because some optoms lacking insight & morals want to earn more money without doing the proper training?

Dear Retinamark,

This possibly is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife questions?"

Richard
 
Richard_Hom said:
Dear Retinamark,

This possibly is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife questions?"

Richard

Here is a question for the ODs from someone outside of this field. Why do you feel the need to expand your services and perform procedures that are already being performed well by others? Are you not busy enough during the day? Do you often sit all afternoon with nothing to do? Do you want to make more money? Is it your overwhelming desire to make care for the patient a little more convenient for them with no other underlying motive?
 
Retinamark said:
To the cowboy wanna-be surgeon optoms, we can ask the question:

"Would you want your grandmother to have surgery by someone who has done 4 years of training & can occasionally get it right, or someone who has done 10-15 years of training to prepare themselves for every possible scenario?"

Why should someone's grandma suffer just because some optoms lacking insight & morals want to earn more money without doing the proper training?

I didn't realize that medical education was 15 years.

If you're going to start counting undergraduate education, then you're going to have to credit optoms for that as well.

What makes you think that if optometrists starting doing FFAs that we would only "occasionally" get it right??

Jenny
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
Here is a question for the ODs from someone outside of this field. Why do you feel the need to expand your services and perform procedures that are already being performed well by others? Are you not busy enough during the day? Do you often sit all afternoon with nothing to do? Do you want to make more money? Is it your overwhelming desire to make care for the patient a little more convenient for them with no other underlying motive?

This is a very legitimate question.

Because a service is being performed well by others doesn't mean that it can't be performed well by us also. (And no, I'm not talking CEs, YAGs, PIs, LASIK blah blah blah.)

Money obviously plays some role in this, (let's be clear about that) but it's not the sudden ability to bill an increased number of patients or the ability to suddenly start doing an increased number of procedures. It's the ability to keep OUR patients in OUR practices rather than refering them out into some ophthalmological "black hole" never to see them again for a procedure that we can safely and competently perform ourselves.

If you have a family doctor, and you need bypass surgery, you will ultimately end up back at your family doctor. Far too often, that's not the case with eye care. Once a patient is refered out, often times that patient is never seen again, even for primary eye care. On rare occasion, we might get a letter back. If OMDs were a bit more courteous in this area, a lot of this fighting probably wouldn't be needed.

There are some OMDs who are very good at making sure our patients are sent back, and those are the ones I try to refer to.

Optometrists are adequately trained to provide a wide range of non-surgical procedures. (Of course, I'm not counting the removal of superficial corneal FBs as surgery) Often times, the thing that stops us from doing many of them is state law.

Jenny
 
JennyW said:
Money obviously plays some role in this, (let's be clear about that) but it's not the sudden ability to bill an increased number of patients or the ability to suddenly start doing an increased number of procedures. It's the ability to keep OUR patients in OUR practices rather than refering them out into some ophthalmological "black hole" never to see them again for a procedure that we can safely and competently perform ourselves.

There are some OMDs who are very good at making sure our patients are sent back, and those are the ones I try to refer to.


Jenny

I have always found that being nice to your referral base is key to maintaining a thriving practice. I think it's a good habit to get into regardless of your field. A couple things that would keep a patient in my practice after referral:

1. Patient request. Sometimes patients just like me better than the referring doc, and it's a free country. The referring doctor gets a letter back, but it's very difficult to include the phrase "Mrs. Johnson prefers to see me for her care", so sometimes the referring doc may not have a clear picture of what happened.

2. Complicated patient care. After cataract surgery (or PI or capsulotomy or ALT), there's an end point where everyone can agree that the surgical management has ended and the patient can be sent back. After a trab, however, this isn't the case and the patient may require maintainance by the surgeon for up to a year to guarantee that the bleb survives. Maybe the patient goes back, maybe he/she doesn't. Either way, letters are sent.

Referral courtesy goes both ways. For example, please don't ask me to comanage a PI, and don't threaten to cut off my referrals if I decline (or the patient declines) to comanage a cataract. This isn't nice, and it's also blatantly illegal.

In my opinion, poor feedback from your surgeons is a reason to change your referral patterns, but not really a reason to start doing surgery.

-Kurt
 
mdkurt said:
I have always found that being nice to your referral base is key to maintaining a thriving practice. I think it's a good habit to get into regardless of your field. A couple things that would keep a patient in my practice after referral:

1. Patient request. Sometimes patients just like me better than the referring doc, and it's a free country. The referring doctor gets a letter back, but it's very difficult to include the phrase "Mrs. Johnson prefers to see me for her care", so sometimes the referring doc may not have a clear picture of what happened.

2. Complicated patient care. After cataract surgery (or PI or capsulotomy or ALT), there's an end point where everyone can agree that the surgical management has ended and the patient can be sent back. After a trab, however, this isn't the case and the patient may require maintainance by the surgeon for up to a year to guarantee that the bleb survives. Maybe the patient goes back, maybe he/she doesn't. Either way, letters are sent.

Referral courtesy goes both ways. For example, please don't ask me to comanage a PI, and don't threaten to cut off my referrals if I decline (or the patient declines) to comanage a cataract. This isn't nice, and it's also blatantly illegal.

In my opinion, poor feedback from your surgeons is a reason to change your referral patterns, but not really a reason to start doing surgery.

-Kurt

That's all fair and good Dr. Kurt, and no one would deny a patient the right to choose the doctor providing their care. However, FAR too often, the surgeon makes NO EFFORT whatsoever to encourage the patient to return to their primary eye care provider. You're correct about trabs. Often times patients who require trabs are no longer "primary care" cases. But many times in fact, surgeons actively ENCOURAGE the patient to stay with them for their PRIMARY EYE CARE.

Jenny
 
Retinamark said:
Trouble is, by the time the ambulance arrives, the patient is dead



A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I can see it's pointless having these arguments, because optoms wanting to practice medicine lack the insight to understand why this is inappropriate and dangerous.


Agree. When you don't know any better, you just don't know any better. :thumbup:
 
JennyW said:
That's all fair and good Dr. Kurt, and no one would deny a patient the right to choose the doctor providing their care. However, FAR too often, the surgeon makes NO EFFORT whatsoever to encourage the patient to return to their primary eye care provider. You're correct about trabs. Often times patients who require trabs are no longer "primary care" cases. But many times in fact, surgeons actively ENCOURAGE the patient to stay with them for their PRIMARY EYE CARE.

Jenny

This is bad practice, but possibly tempting for someone new trying to build a practice. First, it's counterproductive, because the patient isn't going to grow new cataracts. Second, it's counterproductive because referrals will dry up. Third, patients can smell foul play and should find their way back to you if they prefer. That being said, your concerns are shared by ophthalmologists when referring to other ophthalmologists outside their practice.
 
http://www.revoptom.com/archive/issue/ro05gued.htm

GUEST EDITORIAL

Will Professional Myopia Destroy Us?

by David Phillips, O.D., Blue Springs, Mo.

I may not renew my Optometric license next year. I've been thinking of becoming an optician instead. A refracting optician.

Don't get me wrong. I love optometry. I started practice before diagnostic drugs, and nearly half my professional life was pre-TPA. I have a deep appreciation for how we've emerged as a true primary eye-care profession.

But it seems to me that optometry has lost its way. Traditional vision care just isn't glamorous any more. We've gotten into a mind set that demands an ever-expanding scope of practice?glaucoma this year, lasers next year, who knows what after that? We obsess about how many Rxes O.D.s are writing, and our journals fill themselves with more and more esoteric primary care.

I'm not advocating that we abandon primary care. But clinical vision care is more important to the survival of our profession than expanding the primary care boundaries. Given that there are many times more patients who need refractive care than need medical eye care, reality dictates that we are dependent on the former for our very existence.

Opticians, meanwhile, are hoping we will be so myopic as to ignore refracting and clinical vision care long enough for them to get a foot in the door. With ophthalmology's move into dispensing and managed care's desire for one-stop service, independent opticians who cannot generate their own Rxes are fighting for survival. Many among them think that refracting will be their salvation. Opticians have introduced a bill in Washington State that would allow them to refract. Similar legislation may soon be sought in Florida, New York, Nevada and Texas.

This legislation would allow refraction only "under supervision" or with other limitations. We cannot allow ourselves or our legislators to be misled; opticians' ultimate goal is to gain licensure to perform independent refractions.

What can we do? Let's examine the hollow arguments opticians have used to confound the issue:

? Eyes are healthy if they can be refracted to 20/40. I can think of 9.2 million reasons why this one is not true.1 Under the Washington bill, opticians could alter a prescription in patients having best-corrected acuity of at least 20/40. This implies that the eyes are healthy if they can be corrected to 20/40. Otherwise, why place a limit on acuity? But we know that no level of visual acuity proves the eyes are healthy. Acuity is not a test of eye health.

A short list of eye diseases that can be present in an eye with 20/25 or even 20/20 acuity: glaucoma, retinochoroiditis, diabetic retinopathy, histoplasmosis, wet age-related macular degeneration, Coats' disease, Stargardt's disease, choroidal tumor, pigmentary dispersion syndrome, pseudoexfoliation cataract and retinal detachment.

? Opticians are "eye care professionals." This is simply not true. It's a trade at best, but even if trades were outlawed, in most states opticians couldn't get arrested. Opticians are unlicensed and unregulated in 28 states. In states that do require a license, not all require a high school diploma. Only three states require any college education. There are two professional "O's," not three.

? Opticians will be "well-patient" refractionists. How this can be when opticians are not clinicians and are not qualified to tell whether or not a patient is well? A leading optician said it was "totally irrelevant" when confronted with a case where an optometrist saved an asymptomatic patient's life by discovering a choroidal melanoma on a routine dilated exam2 because the patient went in for an eye exam, not just a refraction.3 This ignores the obvious: Since independent optician refractions are not allowed, this patient did not actually choose a complete exam over a separate refraction. Our system forced him to have the exam, even though he was asymptomatic, and it saved him from the fatal mistake of having an optician "tweak" his Rx?and letting his malignancy go undiscovered. This is why the complete exam, and just not refraction, is the standard of care. It should not be changed.

? Opticians should not be held accountable for failure to diagnose, because they will be doing refractions, not exams. How great for them! But if opticians are asking to be allowed to provide a facet of health care, why shouldn't they, unlike all other health-care providers, be held accountable?

? We need optician refractionists. There is actually a surplus of eye doctors, all of whom are trained to refract. The Rand study found up to 30 percent more O.D.s than are needed.4 The oversupply of ophthalmologists is so bad that the Health Care Financing Agency is now offers subsidies to the nation's 1,250 teaching hospitals to cut back ophthalmology residencies.5

? Refracting opticians would be cost-effective. In other words, the laymen are telling the doctors that preventive medical care is not cost-effective. But we know that if we let disease go until the later stages, it is more difficult and more expensive to treat.

? Opticians could become competent refractionists with a 100-hour course. The magician's trick of misdirection. They want to shift the argument to whether they could learn to refract, when the only legitimate question is whether they should. It doesn't matter whether opticians could learn to use the phoropter, one of the eye doctor's tools, in 100 hours or even 1,000 hours. Without an eye health exam, it is a statistical certainty that a number of their "patients" will have an undiagnosed ocular and/or systemic disease to go with their new glasses.

I could spend 100 hours teaching my 17-year-old how to look up medications in the Physician's Desk Reference, another one of our tools. She could become quite competent at finding indications, side effects and interactions for various drugs. But would this make her qualified to prescribe medication for patients? Of course not.

? The opticians' 100-hour refractometry course is comparable to our 100-hour DPA or TPA courses. However, a 100-hour post-graduate course for doctors is an entirely different matter than some beginner training for non-professionals. The truth is that optometry had a generation of medically trained graduates in place before seeking an expanded scope of care. Opticianry has no such educational basis for laying claim to expanded privileges.

? Opticians "gave up" refraction decades ago. Refracting represents progress, or is a natural evolution for them. They have the history backwards. Present-day opticians are "descended" from those turn-of-the-century opticians who did not pursue refraction. Those who did pursue refraction became optometrists. There is no need to have a second batch of opticians branch off and evolve, over the next 100 years, into eye doctors. It's already been done.

? Because lay people can self-prescribe reading glasses, opticians should be able to write Rxes for glasses. This is one of my favorites. Let's follow the logic: Neosporin ointment can be purchased over the counter, so lay people can self-prescribe meds. Therefore opticians should prescribe meds!

Every O.D. should strongly oppose independent refractometry for opticians. We have a duty to every patient we examine to look after his or her health and well-being. I believe we have an equal duty to protect the public, for its own economic benefit, from having unqualified examiners doing part of the job.

Besides the public health issue, consider what would happen if opticians can refract. Sooner or later the managed-care folks will discover they can get such refractions cheaper than an eye exam. Managed care already tells the patients who to see and how often. If managed care decides that optician refractions are OK for routine care and that people only need a doctor's eye exam every four or five (or six or eight!) years, how many surplus O.D.s are there going to be then?

We must make sure our state leaders keep this matter uppermost in mind. History has shown that wars fought on two fronts are rarely won; lasers, orals, injectibles and so forth, must not be won at the expense of traditional refractive care.

Dr. Phillips is in solo practice. Since graduating in 1975, he has practiced in a military hospital, private optometry offices, private ophthalmology offices and in an independent retail optical store. His e-mail is [email protected]

1. Sherman J. The $9.2 million misdiagnosis. Optom Mgt 1997; 32(5): 66-7.
2. Phillips D. Why Opticians Won't Refract. Eyecare Bus 1997; 12(8): 34-8.
3. Appler T. "Opticians Are Refracting." Eyecare Bus 1997; 12(8) 34-8.
4. Too Many O.D.s, Too Many M.D.s, Rand study finds. Rev Opt. 1994; 131(12):5.
5. Feds Start Anti-Residency Program. Rev Ophthalmol 1997; 4(10):6.
 
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