Future trends in vet practices?

[briankirby]

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Hi guys,
Just wondering what u think.
I believe there are currently 75% females graduating from vet schools and this doesnt show much sign of letting up.From what iv been told this has been a huge turnaround from how it used to be(mainly males graduating.
Generally,women dont want to own/run practices and ideally like a set schedule due to the stresses of having a family.
Im wondering what will happen to all the practices set up by men over the years,with nobody to take them over?
Youd imagine they will have to close down.
So this would mean there are less associate vet jobs availablein the future,putting us all into further employment difficulty.
Thoughts?

 

[PetPony]

Where did you see that women don't want to own practices? I'd like to and I think there's several others here that would, too.

 

[orcagirl]

Some don't want to, but then again some men probably didn't want to either. If that is the case there might just be more clinics with multiple doctors. And women have been the majority for a while now. Where I did my undergrad there was about a clinic on every other street corner. Many of them were owned by women. I would think it would mean more associate jobs, or maybe the same amount. Some people what to own a clinic on their own and work with no one else. Either way I don't think it will change much.

 

[Tiger369]

I think since there's been more female doctors then there's also probably more women owning practices (at least one would hope). But I think not all men want to own practices, either. The place where I'm shadowing at has a male doctor as an associate. It just depends on what the individual person wants to do... I've been seeing alot of places where theres at least 3 veterinarians working at 1 practice, and I'm not sure if that's the norm or not, but just throwing that out there.

 

[briankirby]

Maybe things are different in the US.In my area,i can count around 8 practices,all owned by men..
In fact,they tried to subtly stop women getting into med school here as they were more inclined to work part time due to raising a family.
Maybe,the debt US students are in motivates them to work a lot harder,when qualified?

 

[orcagirl]

Maybe things are different in the US.In my area,i can count around 8 practices,all owned by men..
In fact,they tried to subtly stop women getting into med school here as they were more inclined to work part time due to raising a family.
Maybe,the debt US students are in motivates them to work a lot harder,when qualified?

Could also just be a passion for the profession.

 

[bbeventer]

Could also just be a passion for the profession.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hi guys,
Just wondering what u think.
I believe there are currently 75% females graduating from vet schools and this doesnt show much sign of letting up.From what iv been told this has been a huge turnaround from how it used to be(mainly males graduating.
Generally,women dont want to own/run practices and ideally like a set schedule due to the stresses of having a family.
Im wondering what will happen to all the practices set up by men over the years,with nobody to take them over?
Youd imagine they will have to close down.
So this would mean there are less associate vet jobs availablein the future,putting us all into further employment difficulty.
Thoughts?

Last time I checked, men have families too.

I know plenty of female vets who want to own a practice.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

OP, where are you getting your information? Are you making it up, or basing it on what you have observed in your town?

Regarding your first post:
Not all women want to have children.
Not all women who have children want to become less involved in their careers.
Business ownership is not the sole domain of men.
Men who have children may want to work less or work more structured hours to accommodate their families.
This debate has been over for a long time. Women entering the workforce in significant numbers isn't going to tank the economy, in vet med or any other industry.

Regarding your post about "they" who conspired to stop women from entering medical school:
You have to be making that up. I doubt you have access to "their" secret meetings.

 

[briankirby]

Wow,amazing the difference in attitudes in different continents.Here ,it is a well accepted fact that women who have kids are more inclined to work set hours with little on call/weekend work if possible.
Here is what i have observed(bare in mind im in a large animal dominated area)
Women who are pregnant are much less willing to work up to 80 hours a week and beyond in all weather conditions/facilities wrestling wild cattle.
Also,clients are generally very demanding and if u dont show up they will just get someone else and may well stick with them.
Maternity leave is quite generous for employees/public service workers.However,if u own a practice(self employed) u cant really have a sick day never mind 5 months off after pregnancy(unless your willing to lose business).Competition is very tough.

No,i dont have access to secret meeting but can tell u every medical school rejected the "new system" but the government proceeded.Its clear what the practicing physicians think.
PM if u want more details.

 

[Lissarae06]

Wow,amazing the difference in attitudes in different continents.Here ,it is a well accepted fact that women who have kids are more inclined to work set hours with little on call/weekend work if possible.
Here is what i have observed(bare in mind im in a large animal dominated area)
Women who are pregnant are much less willing to work up to 80 hours a week and beyond in all weather conditions/facilities wrestling wild cattle.
Also,clients are generally very demanding and if u dont show up they will just get someone else and may well stick with them.
Maternity leave is quite generous for employees/public service workers.However,if u own a practice(self employed) u cant really have a sick day never mind 5 months off after pregnancy(unless your willing to lose business).Competition is very tough.

No,i dont have access to secret meeting but can tell u every medical school rejected the "new system" but the government proceeded.Its clear what the practicing physicians think.
PM if u want more details.

What country are you in? Here in the US, maternity leave is pathetic. You get 6wks unpaid at a lot of places. For sure not the 5 months you mentioned. Also, I know you said you are in large animal but keep in mind that vet med encompasses a lot more than large animal.

 

[T_Rose]

Regarding your first post:
Not all women want to have children.
Not all women who have children want to become less involved in their careers.
Business ownership is not the sole domain of men.
Men who have children may want to work less or work more structured hours to accommodate their families.
This debate has been over for a long time. Women entering the workforce in significant numbers isn't going to tank the economy, in vet med or any other industry.

👍 I know I am one of those who doesn't want children, and I've already made sure that my long-time boyfriend knows that my future career is higher priority than our relationship.

I can name several women veterinarians that own their own clinics. In fact, I know one that owns two (maybe three), and she divides her time between them. She would most likely be more than willing to have me (or another future veterinarian that has worked for her now or in the past) take over her practices when she retires, but I would rather go into research. If I were to work in a small animal clinic, however, I would probably prefer to own the practice where I work.

 

[TigerWillow]

And I know that it is illegal not to accept people into med school based on gender in the US. You cannot ask about it in the interview, and you cannot mention anything about families in the future to the applicant. Med school is generally 50/50 gender wise.

And that is info from a student on the Adcom committee at the local medical school. So pretty much straight from the horses mouth.

EDIT: yes I know you are talking vet school but the same rules apply

 

[briankirby]

What country are you in? Here in the US, maternity leave is pathetic. You get 6wks unpaid at a lot of places. For sure not the 5 months you mentioned. Also, I know you said you are in large animal but keep in mind that vet med encompasses a lot more than large animal.

Jees,mat leave here is 8 months FULLY PAID.Im in western europe.My dad(a veterinarian) had a tech on maternity leave and she asked him to top up her wages(for doing nothing!😱),and he did😕
I know plenty of his friends(also vets),who would have told her to pack her bags there and then

 

[CanHardlyWait]

Jees,mat leave here is 8 months FULLY PAID.Im in western europe.

Wow. How do businesses afford that? Or is the program subsidized by the government? In which case, how do tax payers afford that?

 

[Lissarae06]

Wow. How do businesses afford that? Or is the program subsidized by the government? In which case, how do tax payers afford that?

A lot of European countries have maternity leave like that. Some even provide nannies during that time. They have higher taxes than we do.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

A lot of European countries have maternity leave like that. Some even provide nannies during that time. They have higher taxes than we do.

I know that such systems exist, I was wondering how it worked. Like, do business owners or taxpayers feel burdened by such a generous system? I would, especially since I don't want to have kids.

 

[devyn]

Im wondering what will happen to all the practices set up by men over the years,with nobody to take them over?
Youd imagine they will have to close down.
Thoughts?

I think you have a very skewed view of the world and concept of where vet med is heading even in your own country. Yes the field is predominantly female now, but there has been an overall shift in the mindset of the population as well. And women are more career driven and want to hold higher positions in the field as well as running their own practices. Not all women want to have families and even the ones that do are not necessarily going to abandon their career for them. And many men are becoming stay at home dads which was not happening in the past. The practices that were set up will be taken over by women and will continue to run successfully just fine.... vet med will not plumet and you are naive or ill-informed if you think otherwise.

Maybe things are different in the US.In my area,i can count around 8 practices,all owned by men..
In fact,they tried to subtly stop women getting into med school here as they were more inclined to work part time due to raising a family.
Maybe,the debt US students are in motivates them to work a lot harder,when qualified?

Ireland may be a smaller country and yes the majority of practices are owned by men, but rest assured in the vet field in the future this will change. The one big difference between Ireland and the states is the difference in practice structure - practices in the states consist of small animal, large animal, & equine whereas practice in Ireland are mostly mixed practice and then equine. The farmers will need to change their view on female vets and it is already starting, but the influx of female vets into mixed practice in Ireland will most definitely push this stereotype/mindset change.

And I am sorry, but no "they" have pushed woman from getting into med school or vet school for that matter. So you are pulling that straight out of your arse. In fact, women are getting higher leaving cert scores than males and are therefore getting into vet and human med much easier than males.

Wow,amazing the difference in attitudes in different continents.Here ,it is a well accepted fact that women who have kids are more inclined to work set hours with little on call/weekend work if possible.
Here is what i have observed(bare in mind im in a large animal dominated area)
Women who are pregnant are much less willing to work up to 80 hours a week and beyond in all weather conditions/facilities wrestling wild cattle.
Also,clients are generally very demanding and if u dont show up they will just get someone else and may well stick with them.
Maternity leave is quite generous for employees/public service workers.However,if u own a practice(self employed) u cant really have a sick day never mind 5 months off after pregnancy(unless your willing to lose business).Competition is very tough.

As has been said many women work their arse's off and are more than willing to put in just as many if not more hours then men in veterinary medicine. And many men take a good amount of time of in this day and age to spend with their families. Now Ireland is a bit old school in its thinking and yes farmers are quite demanding - prefer to work with one vet, but also want things done on their schedule. But many farmers are out in bumblefeck, so ... they are stuck working with whatever vet is the closest or dealing with the problem themselves.

Many of the women that are my classmates are very driven to be large animal vets and will get right in there and do what it takes to get the job done. The vast majority of women vet students I know want to specialize and quite a few have plans of owning their own practice one day. And a good number never want to have kids - myself included.

Perhaps you need to do more research before being so reactionary.....

 

[sunshinevet]

Wow,amazing the difference in attitudes in different continents.Here ,it is a well accepted fact that women who have kids are more inclined to work set hours with little on call/weekend work if possible.
.

I find this hilarious.

Uuuummm... why would I want to work on call/weekends? That makes my life suck. Bearing in mind i have no children - and yet I would LOVE to work no call/no weekends. Because I like HAVING A LIFE. I know TONNES OF GUYS who refuse to work call/weekends - simply because it sucks. Would YOU work call/weekends if you didn't have to?

OMG WHAT PEOPLE WANT A LIFE?!?!?! 😱😱😱 Shocking I know!!!

And seriously, complaining that pregnant women don't want to work 80hr weeks? Thats ridiculous. Thats like saying "how dare they dont want to be in the room when I take x-rays/pump out isoflurane". Really? How sexist are you? Not only that, but 80hrs/week is long when your young, fit and healthy. Maybe I've just got a young persons entitlement going on, maybe I'm just not "tough" enough for vet med but you wont see me accepting any jobs where the working week is stated at 80 hours!!!! You crazy?

I don't think its about women being weak and men being better etc. I think its about vet med coming into the 21st century, and realising that we have the right to a life outside vet, and working the long hours is extremely detrimental mentally. So no, I won't go busting my ass working a billion hours for no reason. I won't go putting my foetus in dangerous positions. But you'll find its an overall attitude change - young male grads are just as unlikely to want to work long hours. And who works the longest hours? Business owners. (Atleast in my experience).

 

[Spinach Dip]

What country are you in? Here in the US, maternity leave is pathetic. You get 6wks unpaid at a lot of places. For sure not the 5 months you mentioned.

This may be a little off-topic, but I was reading an article recently that analyzed maternity leave in a bunch of countries around the world. The conclusion was that the US has the absolute worst in the western world. (The only places that scored worse are those that don't even recognize maternity leave!)

 

[briankirby]

I know that such systems exist, I was wondering how it worked. Like, do business owners or taxpayers feel burdened by such a generous system? I would, especially since I don't want to have kids.

Yes,most certainly.It is ridiculous.
Most of their "leave" is spent having lunch with friends in nice restaurants .
Talking about it is taboo,so i may as well leave it at that.Not going to change anything

 

[briankirby]

I respect your opinion,fair enough.
U seem to have a good idea what u are talking about and understand the old school mindset.
However,that mindset still exists very much today.I see large animal practice every day really.In fact,ill be going out in about 15 mins to a herd of wild sucklers(wish me luck!).
I can only tell u my experience.It may not be politically correct.

I would have no problem with women doing large animal work and hope they do.
Maybe u guys can change the mindset.
But,its all well and good being a student and saying "i want to do x,y and z".
Iv experienced practice firsthand and know many vets very well.Both the men and women vets and farmers have told me "its no job for a woman"(large animal work).
Are they correct?I dont know.They have about 30 years experience each, practicing so i value their opinion.
i spoke to a lady vet recently who said nobody in her class had any idea what the job really entailed and a lot would not do it again.

as i say,i am not sexist,i am just telling u what the general(probably incorrect) belief is.

I think you have a very skewed view of the world and concept of where vet med is heading even in your own country. Yes the field is predominantly female now, but there has been an overall shift in the mindset of the population as well. And women are more career driven and want to hold higher positions in the field as well as running their own practices. Not all women want to have families and even the ones that do are not necessarily going to abandon their career for them. And many men are becoming stay at home dads which was not happening in the past. The practices that were set up will be taken over by women and will continue to run successfully just fine.... vet med will not plumet and you are naive or ill-informed if you think otherwise.



Ireland may be a smaller country and yes the majority of practices are owned by men, but rest assured in the vet field in the future this will change. The one big difference between Ireland and the states is the difference in practice structure - practices in the states consist of small animal, large animal, & equine whereas practice in Ireland are mostly mixed practice and then equine. The farmers will need to change their view on female vets and it is already starting, but the influx of female vets into mixed practice in Ireland will most definitely push this stereotype/mindset change.

And I am sorry, but no "they" have pushed woman from getting into med school or vet school for that matter. So you are pulling that straight out of your arse. In fact, women are getting higher leaving cert scores than males and are therefore getting into vet and human med much easier than males.



As has been said many women work their arse's off and are more than willing to put in just as many if not more hours then men in veterinary medicine. And many men take a good amount of time of in this day and age to spend with their families. Now Ireland is a bit old school in its thinking and yes farmers are quite demanding - prefer to work with one vet, but also want things done on their schedule. But many farmers are out in bumblefeck, so ... they are stuck working with whatever vet is the closest or dealing with the problem themselves.

Many of the women that are my classmates are very driven to be large animal vets and will get right in there and do what it takes to get the job done. The vast majority of women vet students I know want to specialize and quite a few have plans of owning their own practice one day. And a good number never want to have kids - myself included.

Perhaps you need to do more research before being so reactionary.....

 

[hai1983]

I continue to open this thread in the hopes that we're going to be talking about physical therapy, vaccines for cancer, anything interesting and not totally sexist and insulting.

 

[devyn]

I respect your opinion,fair enough.
U seem to have a good idea what u are talking about and understand the old school mindset.
However,that mindset still exists very much today.I see large animal practice every day really.In fact,ill be going out in about 15 mins to a herd of wild sucklers(wish me luck!).
I can only tell u my experience.It may not be politically correct.

I would have no problem with women doing large animal work and hope they do.
Maybe u guys can change the mindset.
But,its all well and good being a student and saying "i want to do x,y and z".
Iv experienced practice firsthand and know many vets very well.Both the men and women vets and farmers have told me "its no job for a woman"(large animal work).
Are they correct?I dont know.They have about 30 years experience each, practicing so i value their opinion.
i spoke to a lady vet recently who said nobody in her class had any idea what the job really entailed and a lot would not do it again.

as i say,i am not sexist,i am just telling u what the general(probably incorrect) belief is.

The fact of the matter is that the mindset is going to have to change.... yes there are farmers who still think that large animal vet work is not women's work, but they are going to have to get with the reality of the situation because at some point they are going to have no choice but to work with female vets. Women are more than capable of practicing large animal medicine and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and thinking in a very sexist perspective. I can guarantee you did not run into very many women vets who were of this perspective.

I have worked with quite a few large animal vets here who have no issue with females working in the field and I have friends as well who practice in the field and do not run into issues. Perhaps it is the area of Ireland that you are currently practicing in. Also not sure if you took Deirdre Campion's class on Careers, but she has worked as a large animal vet for the majority of her career and although she ran into some farmers who gave her some slack overall she said that females can excel in the large animal field.

The overall shift in the veterinary field towards a female dominant contingent is going to cause a shift in the large animal vet ratio as well female/male. Old school thinking will have to see it's way out the door if farmer's want to have their livestock seen. As females are much more driven career wise and extremely capable - a few concerns are not going to dissuade them.

And also just as an aside.... veterinary students in the states are required to get a certain number of veterinary experience hours before they can apply to veterinary school, so they are well aware of what they are getting into and what to expect once they go out and practice (the majority get experience in both small & large animal practices). This differs from Ireland, the UK, and Australia where students do not need any experience to attend veterinary school.

Not sure what the point of your topic is really.... were you hoping to dissuade women from pursuing vet medicine? Were you really concerned that the field would crash with the influx of females in the veterinary field? Because otherwise you are pretty much saying I have been told women should not practice veterinary medicine because of x,y,z and I believe what I have been told - now I will preach it on a forum....

 

[hopefulinva]

I think the biggest thing that strikes me about this thread is how you've taken what you know from your town and extrapolated it to define the profession globally.

So let me take what I know from my town, and see how it compares.

I work for one branch of a five-branch hospital (the latest branch opened in a prestigious district just outside of the nation's capitol). All of the branch managers - to my knowledge - are female. All of the business managers are female. The owner of the chain is female. With a husband. And children. And dogs. And cats. And dedicated clients that she continues to see at all of the five branches.

A number of my female coworkers are pursuing business degrees with the intent to run or start their own business. Being that they're also well-trained in veterinary medicine, it is very likely that they will go on to hold upper leadership positions in veterinary hospitals.

I, myself, hold degrees in both biology and business management with the intent to run or start my own practice. I mentor a couple of undergraduates at my alma mater that are doing the same - both female.

These are small numbers, but you used small numbers too, so from this perspective - men are superfluous entirely in this field.

And adding to this - when I saw the title of this thread, I was excited to jump in on a discussion that talks about the application of veterinary medicine to world health. Instead I ran into a 2 dimensional wall basically saying women will destroy the industry. Maybe you can see why some of us are bitter. 😉

 

[briankirby]

I started the thread as i had a veterinarian mention this to me recently.
Did a bit of reading and found this article

http://blog.mdmep.com/2010/01/11/why-women-dont-want-to-own-vet-practices/
From this research and my own observations in my area i assumed this was the case.
Its amazing,as iv spoken to a lot of people who believe women who wish to have a family will make lifestyle choices to accomodate that(which i have no problem with).

I was just curious about how things will end up for practices in the States as i intend to end up practicing there.

If women are more than happy to take over practices then thats great news for me.
Ideal,actually.

 

[Lissarae06]

I started the thread as i had a veterinarian mention this to me recently.
Did a bit of reading and found this article

http://blog.mdmep.com/2010/01/11/why-women-dont-want-to-own-vet-practices/
From this research and my own observations in my area i assumed this was the case.
Its amazing,as iv spoken to a lot of people who believe women who wish to have a family will make lifestyle choices to accomodate that(which i have no problem with).

I was just curious about how things will end up for practices in the States as i intend to end up practicing there.

If women are more than happy to take over practices then thats great news for me.
Ideal,actually.

Yep, a blog on the internet said it was true so it MUST be true.

I am a woman who fully intends on having a family. I really don't want to be a stay-at-home mom, though. I want to work as an associate for a short time to gain experience as an actual vet (get my feet wet so to speak) and eventually own my own practice. A lot of women in my class feel the same and have the same goals- and a lot of us want to work in large animal/mixed animal settings. As you can tell from the responses in this thread, we are not alone.

 

[devyn]

I started the thread as i had a veterinarian mention this to me recently.
Did a bit of reading and found this article

http://blog.mdmep.com/2010/01/11/why-women-dont-want-to-own-vet-practices/
From this research and my own observations in my area i assumed this was the case.
Its amazing,as iv spoken to a lot of people who believe women who wish to have a family will make lifestyle choices to accomodate that(which i have no problem with).

I was just curious about how things will end up for practices in the States as i intend to end up practicing there.

If women are more than happy to take over practices then thats great news for me.
Ideal,actually.

So you took the opinions of a few people and one blog written by one person who has a very skewed view and took that as fact. WOW!

Many women in this day and age who want to raise families still intend to have very full careers and will not give up that aspect of their lives, so to assume that a woman would give up veterinary medicine because she got pregnant or that the market will crash because of it is ludicrous.

Women in the states are very career driven..... there will be a fair percentage of the women in the veterinary field looking to either own their own practice or at least become an associate in one. I would not be fretting over this if I were you.

 

[StartingoverVet]

To disagree (slightly) with the rebuttals here:

It is certainly stated quite frequently (and I admit I am too lazy to start citing) that there is still a male/female divide in pay and practice owners, and that part of that is explained by the skewing of the data because of women who leave to have families becoming part time and working fewer hours.

How much does that occur? I have no idea.

But having said that, it doesn't mean women AREN'T becoming practice owners at all, and all the people posting here could conceivably not fall in that category (but who knows), it just means potentially that a smaller % of women vets may become practice owners than male vets.

What is that going to mean for the future of the profession if it turns out to be true? I would say not a whole lot.

If practices were in short supply then the profitability of owning a practice would go up. Yay! But since we are currently oversupplied, not much to think about from my point.

OF COURSE, more women are going to own practices in the future than currently as the split changes. No one could possibly think otherwise.

To me there is really nothing much here to discuss.

 

[briankirby]

No,as stated this is what everyone around my area believes and the article confirmed it.
What about this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...pay-gap-down-to-womens-lifestyle-choices.html
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563943/Women-happier-if-they-work-part-
time.html

andhttp://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/12/27/the-problem-with-female-doctors/

To say that some women who have a family do not think about working less in order to accomodate it is incorrect.
Some women do.I know them personally.
obviously,others decide to prioritise their careers

 

[PetPony]

The blog writer wrote somewhere else that people are less interested in working long hours. Who wants to work long hours? Normal maybe, but long all the time?

 

[devyn]

You are interested in ultimately practicing in the states, but you are looking at articles from the UK.... the UK and the states are very different. And one of the articles did clearly state that women who wanted to pursue a higher position in their field will limit their family and/or hire outside help.

I was brought up in a very career-focused family. It was extremely important to attend college and get a degree. To be financially independent and my parents always encouraged all of the women in my family to pursue a career. My mom has a career, she was not a stay-at-home mom. All of my friends are the same.... I know no one who it is their goal to be a stay-at-home mom. Not that that is a bad thing, it is not, but I think that a vast majority of women these days are being brought up to be career focused.

There will definitely be those women who cut down their hours at the clinic to care for their family, but there will be more than enough women to bring up the slack. I know several women in the states who are practice owners or in other high positions within the veterinary clinics. And many of them have families - they deal just fine, work the hours needed to perform their job, and the clinics are thriving.

I don't believe that the veterinary field being female dominated is going to suffer - there will be plenty of women interested in owning the clinics, taking the higher positions, and doing the dirty work.

 

[twelvetigers]

There are more and more women these days that do not want a family (or will wait much longer than what was normal in the past to start one). Times are a-changin' and starting a family isn't as big of a focus for some - others manage just fine even with a family. I do know someone that was out working cattle and horses until a week before they were due. It happens. They got back in within two weeks of giving birth. I know this because, as the volunteer, I got asked to hold the baby a lot. Haha.

 

[wolfspeaker]

Yes,most certainly.It is ridiculous.
Most of their "leave" is spent having lunch with friends in nice restaurants .
Talking about it is taboo,so i may as well leave it at that.Not going to change anything

I would be reaaaallly careful about saying this. You have no idea, until you have a family of your own, just how much work it entails. A new born baby is a lot of work, both mentally and physically. Especially, if your spouse is working fulltime or OT, or you are a single parent. You have shown a LOT of ignorance in this thread, and I suggest you do some research to 'back your claims up' and go out and get real life experience in the areas you have brought up on this thread. You sound really young to me. Are you even over age 25? I'll be really surprised if you are.

I respect your opinion,fair enough.
U seem to have a good idea what u are talking about and understand the old school mindset.
However,that mindset still exists very much today.I see large animal practice every day really.In fact,ill be going out in about 15 mins to a herd of wild sucklers(wish me luck!).
I can only tell u my experience.It may not be politically correct.

I'm sure you do, but how many separate practices have you been involved with? Are your experiences from a diverse pool of say over 10 different practices, or are you basing your claims on just 1-2 practices. Every practice is different. Every area of the world is different. Every country is different. Every area of each 'state', 'province', etc is different.

I would have no problem with women doing large animal work and hope they do.
Maybe u guys can change the mindset.
But,its all well and good being a student and saying "i want to do x,y and z".
Iv experienced practice firsthand and know many vets very well.Both the men and women vets and farmers have told me "its no job for a woman"(large animal work).
Are they correct?I dont know.They have about 30 years experience each, practicing so i value their opinion.
i spoke to a lady vet recently who said nobody in her class had any idea what the job really entailed and a lot would not do it again.

as i say,i am not sexist,i am just telling u what the general(probably incorrect) belief is.

Do you think the rest of us haven't experienced practice first hand as well? Just about all of use know many vets very well. I've worked on a few different farms(beef, swine, dairy) and volunteered at more than 4 different vet practices doing farm calls with them. Sure, I've had a few farmers surprised that I want to work with large animals, but none of them have been as ignorant as you!

It's one thing to have an 'opinion', it's quite another to state your opinion as 'facts' and believe that's how the rest of the world views things. You have a very small and closed mind. Get out there and get some diverse experience. Life, family, different practices, different areas. Then come back and tell us what you think.

 

[DVMDream]

I know of multiple female vets who have families and are practice owners. I don't think there is really much to discuss here.... Yes, there will be a switch of more female practice owners than male ones but I don't think it will be a big problem. I personally do not want kids. (This might change in the future but for now I am content with not ever having kids). I also have thought about owning my own practice once I have had a few years of experience under my belt. I have also met a few male associate vets who have told me that they never want to be practice owners.

 

[briankirby]

An above poster has agreed with me,that the maternity leave of 5-8 months here,fully paid compared to 6 weeks unpaid in the US is generous.Make up your own mind.

Also,u say you have seen practice,fair enough.U should know that being a pre vet or a vet student is very different to being a fully qualified veterinarian.My 1st cousin is a doctor.He told me med school is "easy".Intern year is also easy,its just long hours.
After that,its a world of difference.You are answerable to an ill patients family,,you take a ton of abuse and give up everything for it.Med/vet school are "sheltered" from the real world.U are naive to believe otherwise..

Just to show some facts,here u go
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/ireland_in_the_eu/impact_of_eu_on_irish_women/index_en.htm

Across the EU 75% of all part time workers are women.Why?As it says,due to having a family.I would have imagined this would be higher in large animal veterinary as its just so physically demanding.
There you go,no presumption/sexist opinion.Just Statistics.
Ill leave it at that
Enjoy yourselves

 

[PetPony]

Make up our minds? That sounds like we all need to have the same opinion - your opinion. And that's not necessary. People are different and think about stuff differently.

And it doesn't sound like you're a vet yet. So if being a prevet or vet student is so much different than being an actual vet, how would you know how it is? Have you been a vet school hospital before? Otherwise how would you know how it is there. Yes, it's different. But there's specialty hospitals and they're different to general practice, too. Because not everything is the same. There are differences between every single practice.

The interns here by the way have their own patients, too, and "are answerable to them."

I've met several female vets in Germany that work full time and one of them is a practice owner. But I don't apply this to everybody in Europe.

 

[wolfspeaker]

No one said it wasn't generous. It is generous. The US has THE worst maternity leave, only ahead of areas that have NO maternity leave. I'm sure just about everyone agrees with you on that. It was HOW you said it, by saying all the mothers do is go out to each lunch with their friends. THAT makes you a sexist and ignorant pig. Yeah, I said it. I'm mean. Get used to it. I gotta keep up with them male LA vets. 🙄 I can wrestle a pig, swear like a sailor and spit chew just as well as any of them. 😀

Show us (exactly, quote it) where anyone said that being a licensed veterinarian was the same as being in vet school, or watching a vet. You can't because no one said that. 🤣 You aren't a full licensed practicing vet either.

A lot of us know what it takes to be a LA vet. We aren't little kids riding toy horses. We know the long hours ahead, the 3 am calls, spending hours wrestling to get a calf out while the cow is squeezing your arm till you can't feel it anymore. Having to go back on your promises to family and friends because you get a phone call and have to go out to a farm for an emergency. Missing your childrens recital, games, etc. YOU aren't even out of vet school, so why do you have the right to call the rest of us naive?

What point are you trying to make with that site you posted. Show me facts of what? We all know that more women are going into careers. No where in that artical did it mention age brackets. Of course there are more male business owners RIGHT NOW, because a lot of them owned the business(es) before women really started getting into those careers. Things are changing. More women WILL be business owners and it will not be the end of all things on earth. You question the safety of future economics due to more women in the industry, yet all you do is post stats on the current time.

You say you want to practice in the US, but you only ever post 'stats' from Ireland. Do some reading about the US. Do some looking into about what the FUTURE holds, not necessarily what the statistics are now. The statistics now and what they will be 10-20 years from now are going to be drastically different.

From this thread I get the feeling you feel very self important. YOU are the naive one, basing all your skewed claims on one small country. Expand your horizons, look at the rest of the world, before opening your mouth.

I think, you should finish school, and stay in your own country. You'll get eaten alive in most areas of the US the way you think. Good luck.

 

[wildcatj]

Gosh do I wish you would use spaces after your punctuation...

 

[Tco87]

Gosh do I wish you would use spaces after your punctuation...

Yeah, I couldn't decide which made him seem more uneducated, the inflammatory sexist opinions he's spewing out or the lack of basic grammar....

Also, since no one else has said this yet...
:troll:

 

[PetPony]

Gosh do I wish you would use spaces after your punctuation...

👍 That bothered me so much! But last time I said something, I was jumped at, so I stopped mentioning it. But it makes me cringe all the time.

 

[devyn]

Also,u say you have seen practice,fair enough.U should know that being a pre vet or a vet student is very different to being a fully qualified veterinarian.My 1st cousin is a doctor.He told me med school is "easy".Intern year is also easy,its just long hours.
After that,its a world of difference.You are answerable to an ill patients family,,you take a ton of abuse and give up everything for it.Med/vet school are "sheltered" from the real world.U are naive to believe otherwise..

There you go,no presumption/sexist opinion.Just Statistics.
Ill leave it at that
Enjoy yourselves

No way! 😱 Being a veterinarian is different from being in veterinary school...... 🙄 I find it quite funny that you seem to think you know this better than we do when you are a veterinary student (or so you say) just like we are..... hmmmm......

Seriously....you need to get your head out of your ass and start actually doing real research. It is clear you have already formed an opinion about women in the veterinary field. It is clear you have no idea about any part of the world other than Ireland and even in Ireland you are taking data back from 2006.

If you are planning on working in the states you better ditch your sexist ideals/attitude fairly quickly as women in the US will not put up with that ****e and you won't make it very far at all. Good luck making it in a women dominated field in a country you have no clue about. On top of the fact that employment is already hard to come by in the states and veterinary clinics are going to go for US citizens over foreigners, nine times out of ten.

Oh and if you think veterinary school is "easy" think again...... I'll leave it at that.

Enjoy yourself. 🙂

 

[LetItSnow]

Most of their "leave" is spent having lunch with friends in nice restaurants.

There you go,no presumption/sexist opinion.Just Statistics.

Yes. Clearly, just statistics and no sexist opinion. Obviously. I mean, throwing around comments like the first one isn't at all presumptuous or sexist.

[T]here has been an overall shift in the mindset of the population as well. And women are more career driven and want to hold higher positions in the field as well as running their own practices.

I think I've read that this is shifting back the other way - that essentially that trend peaked and is reversing (at least here in the U.S.). Even if I'm right, though, it's probably not quite as relevant (yet) in vet med where the large majority of graduates are still women.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

You're missing the most important points, and they have nothing to do with the gender split of school or practice ownership:

I believe there is a greatly increasing amount of corporate clinic ownership in the US, and a drop in the number of clinics owned by a single vet or two or three partners, regardless of their sex.

Also that there is a greater number of large animal vets working for agricultural corporations, ranches, or stables rather than owning their own practices. Again - more companies with veterinary employees rather than stand-alone open-market vet clinics. It's economically very difficult for a private large animal service.

Not that privately owned clinics will become obsolete by any means, but I believe the trend will be away from private ownership of large animal clinics and more vets will be employees rather than owners.

 

[OwlandPussycat]

There you go,no presumption/sexist opinion.Just Statistics.
Ill leave it at that
Enjoy yourselves

^ This is my favorite part.

Thank you for the extremely relevant statistics. Because female vets worldwide are demographically VERY similar to all women in the 2008 (or earlier) EU workforce. Thank you OP, the delicate flowers of SDN will go back to knitting baby clothes while the big, strong men protect us. Trust me, we'll enjoy ourselves. 😀

 

[bunnity]

You're missing the most important points, and they have nothing to do with the gender split of school or practice ownership:

I believe there is a greatly increasing amount of corporate clinic ownership in the US, and a drop in the number of clinics owned by a single vet or two or three partners, regardless of their sex.

Also that there is a greater number of large animal vets working for agricultural corporations, ranches, or stables rather than owning their own practices. Again - more companies with veterinary employees rather than stand-alone open-market vet clinics. It's economically very difficult for a private large animal service.

Not that privately owned clinics will become obsolete by any means, but I believe the trend will be away from private ownership of large animal clinics and more vets will be employees rather than owners.

Consensus on VIN seemed to be that this is a function of student debt... do you agree with that?

 

[Finnsheep]

I just wanted to say, I want to do large animal exclusive and I very much want to own my own practice. I personally don't think that the 100 or so pound difference between males and females makes too much of a difference when you're dealing with a 1200 lb. cow. Plus, I can palpate cows much more easily than any guy I know with far less arm fatigue...and can easily deal with lamb dystocias due to my small hands. Never have any issues moving cattle, vaccinating, castrating surgically, etc.

I shear all my own sheep- by hand, no electric shears- and can control even very large rams easily.

Let's not forget that some of the best horsemen are actually female. It's not about physical strength so much as mindset.

Even tough jobs like pulling calves is made much easier by utilizing calf winches. If you need assistance, you ask- controlling the animal, holding the prolapsed uterus to replace it, whatever.

I don't care about gender- I care about work ethic and dedication. I've never had any problems being accepted by either vets or farmers. Maybe that's not true in all areas, but in my neck of the woods, farmers could care less about whether the person castrating or pulling babies is male or female.

Also, I am probably one of the few people here who doesn't care at all about night calls, weekend work, etc. 80 hour weeks are not that big of a deal to me. I know because I have worked them, with my own animals and with vets. Lambing season is 24/7 work for weeks, usually in the crummiest weather of the whole year.

I know plenty of women like myself, and even women who've had six or more children who've done quite well. I do not think that working is superior to raising children, I do think it's possible to do both, but I at this time feel no calling to get married and raise a family. That may change, but right now my career is my priority. I don't have a boyfriend and have no plans to get in such a relationship unless I plan on marrying. That's just how I tick and I am very happy with that.

 

[LetItSnow]

I believe there is a greatly increasing amount of corporate clinic ownership in the US, and a drop in the number of clinics owned by a single vet or two or three partners, regardless of their sex.

👍

Yup! But don't assume those of us who responded to the gender split issue have lost sight of that bigger picture. I agree that the bigger issue is the shift from single (or multiple partner) ownership to corporate ownership. But that doesn't make the gender issue uninteresting or not worth discussing.

Not that privately owned clinics will become obsolete by any means, but I believe the trend will be away from private ownership of large animal clinics and more vets will be employees rather than owners.

It sure does look that way.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Consensus on VIN seemed to be that this is a function of student debt... do you agree with that?

I haven't put much thought into why........with respect to large animal medicine, I think it's more likely to be a function of the change in food animal production (fewer small farms, or at least fewer profitable small privately-owned farms) than it is the student debt issue. In fact, it's happening in Canada as well, which doesn't have the student debt issue that the US veterinary profession does.

 

[TigerWillow]

My 1st cousin is a doctor.He told me med school is "easy".Intern year is also easy,its just long hours.
After that,its a world of difference.You are answerable to an ill patients family,,you take a ton of abuse and give up everything for it.Med/vet school are "sheltered" from the real world.U are naive to believe otherwise..

Wait..... Med school is easy?!?! Gee whiz. I'll go tell that to my best friends in med school who already had 10 people out of a class of 140 fail out. I'll make sure to tell my other friend who just failed her anatomy test that it should have been easy.


And what are the owners of the animals? Bumpkiss? At least in small animal, I have to explain every little thing that happened to their pet in detail.

Those comments right there make me want to throw a sea urchin at your face.