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General Surgery Residency as a DO

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bsowk332

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I’m wondering if I have a decent chance at matching into a ACGME general surgery residency as a DO? I’m interested in doing a community program (2 in my home state, have taken DOs also). It seems from last years match data matching is 50/50. My USMLE 1 is 237 and COMLEX 1 is 661. Haven’t done any research but am trying to get on a project soon. Wondering if I should even bother or do the AOA match?
 

jrlob91

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I’m wondering if I have a decent chance at matching into a ACGME general surgery residency as a DO? I’m interested in doing a community program (2 in my home state, have taken DOs also). It seems from last years match data matching is 50/50. My USMLE 1 is 237 and COMLEX 1 is 661. Haven’t done any research but am trying to get on a project soon. Wondering if I should even bother or do the AOA match?
Not sure what year you are but there will likely only be one match when you apply. Your stats are fine. Read charting outcomes for the match.
 

Goro

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Only ~5% of my students have gone into Gen Surg, these tended to be at the top of their Class. On the whole, ~75% of ACGME PDs surveyed for Surgery will either seldom/never rank or interview a DO.

Best to ask your more senior classmates or graduates.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

Go look at some of the DO in ACGME surgery type threads in the gen surg subform as there are a few people over there who are currently applying or have already matched and they can give you some good advice. There are a lot of misconceptions about DOs applying to surgery from what I’ve seen on SDN in general and you might not get great advice here. Find people who have done it.
 
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MedicineZ0Z

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Not sure what year you are but there will likely only be one match when you apply. Your stats are fine. Read charting outcomes for the match.
Isnt the joint match in 2020?
 

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Go look at some of the DO in ACGME surgery type threads in the gen surg subform as there are a few people over there who are currently applying or have already matched and they can give you some good advice. There are a lot of misconceptions about DOs applying to surgery from what I’ve seen on SDN in general and you might not get great advice here. Find people who have done it.
I don't think that's the case. ACGME GS is competitive for DO. I think people are usually quick to point that out because it's not considered as something competitive in the MD world. GS is still the old boys' club...
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I don't think that's the case. ACGME GS is competitive for DO. I think people are usually quick to point that out because it's not considered as something competitive in the MD world. GS is still the old boys' club...

From what I’ve been told by people who have actually gone through the DO to ACGME general surgery residency route it is most definitely the case.
 

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AnatomyGrey12

read post #3

It does appear it is something competitive for DO to match even if one can't extrapolate that much because only COMLEX score is reported.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Osteopathic-2016.pdf

Post number 3 is by an adcom and, while I value greatly their opinion with regards to applying to medical, they don’t understand anything beyond a superficial level of applying to residency. The charting outcomes is seriously deflated because of numerous variables, and is completely worthless. I never said GS isn’t competitive. I don’t get why you’re arguing with me as my only advice I gave is to seek out people who have actually done what OP is trying to do instead of listening to a bunch of ignorant people on SDN who have never done the DO to ACGME surgery route and only have superficial statistics or opinions to share. The numerous people I’ve talked to paint a different picture than SDN does with regards to ACGME surgery.
 
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@AnatomyGrey12

Whatever picture these 'numerous people' you've talked to painted, these numbers don't lie. I just feel like you're overselling OP's chances... By the way, I was not making an argument about OP's chances; I was merely pointing out how GS is disproportionately competitive for DO students when it shouldn't.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

@AnatomyGrey12

Whatever picture these 'numerous people' you've talked to painted, these numbers don't lie. I just feel like you're overselling OP's chances... By the way, I was not making an argument about OP's chances; I was merely pointing out how GS is disproportionately competitive for DO students when it shouldn't.

First bolded: yes they do, and they do so by a lot. In an effort not to further derail OPs thread I can go into specific detail into how they lie over PM if you are genuinely curious.

Italicized: I never made a single comment about OPs chances. Not one. As an MS1 I don’t feel like that’s my place, so all I said to contact people who have been through the process because they will have much better perspective. I have done so and think OP would greatly benefit from doing the same.

Second bolded: I agree
 
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You shall know the Truth

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Only ~5% of my students have gone into Gen Surg, these tended to be at the top of their Class. On the whole, ~75% of ACGME PDs surveyed for Surgery will either seldom/never rank or interview a DO.

Best to ask your more senior classmates or graduates.
Goro do you have the survey at all or do you where I can find it? Thank you.
 
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Goro

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Peach Newport

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I think ACGME gen surg is totally doable with a 237, with a few caveats.

1) chances are pretty much only at low-tier, no name places, and the occasional low-ranked university program. Anything that even smells like a prestigious name in gen surg is a no-go w/ a DO and that step 1.

2) I think the major reason very few DOs go into ACGME surg is because they just don’t have the scores. 237 is actually a pretty high score for a DO. I think people on SDN vastly overestimate the average DO board score. In threads where it’s discussed, there are people saying that their school’s average is a 225! However, the NBME numbers say that DOs consistently average around 213.

My totally uninformed opinion is that, especially if OP has a research project or 2, and applies broadly without regard to geography, she/he will be fine for community gensurg.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

My totally uninformed opinion is that, especially if OP has a research project or 2, and applies broadly without regard to geography, she/he will be fine for community gensurg.

Probably doesn’t even need research honestly, but shhh SDN wants to tell them they have a 50/50 chance based on a report that doesn’t even include the most basic criteria.
 

DrfluffyMD

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Probably doesn’t even need research honestly, but shhh SDN wants to tell them they have a 50/50 chance based on a report that doesn’t even include the most basic criteria.

You seem to have a pretty fundamental understanding about how competitive it is for DOs to get gen surg and ignore NRMP data as well as experienced faculties.

I fully expect you to demostrate more understanding when you are no longer a MS1
 
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AnatomyGrey12

You seem to have a pretty fundamental understanding about how competitive it is for DOs to get gen surg and ignore NRMP data as well as experienced faculties.

I fully expect you to demostrate more understanding when you are no longer a MS1

Which “experienced faculties” have I ignored? Is there a DO general surgery resident or attending in this thread I have missed? I value the opinion of actual DOs in ACGME general surgery residency over yours or anyone else in a different field or with a different degree. The only advice I gave in this thread was for OP to seek out such mentors instead of listen to people like you talk about something you know nothing about. My opinion is not mine, it is what has been shared to me by numerous people who have done, or are currently doing, what OP is trying to do.

The NRMP data is very flawed and is a very poor resource for DOs applying to this field.
 

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Which “experienced faculties” have I ignored? Is there a DO general surgery resident or attending in this thread I have missed? I value the opinion of actual DOs in ACGME general surgery residency over yours or anyone else in a different field or with a different degree. The only advice I gave in this thread was for OP to seek out such mentors instead of listen to people like you talk about something you know nothing about. My opinion is not mine, it is what has been shared to me by numerous people who have done, or are currently doing, what OP is trying to do.

The NRMP data is very flawed and is a very poor resource for DOs applying to this field.

I supposed that you can always put your head in the sand and ignore people like goro, who is a faculty at a DO school and persumably do more than just “admission”.

Hell, you seem to downplay the NRMP data, calling it “flawed” (with what reason or source?)

Let’s look at the 2016 osteo charting outcome shall we? For general surgery, 49 applicant matched and 51 didn’t match. Those are the people who went through the match and did not have AOA fallback because they would have withdrew otherwise. A slightly more than half applicants didn’t match at all.

In fact, more applicants went unmatched with comlex score all the way up to 550, only at 550 and above do people start to match more, and 550-600 is a 50/50 chance.

Good luck.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I supposed that you can always put your head in the sand and ignore people like goro, who is a faculty at a DO school and persumably do more than just “admission”.

Are you intentionally being obtuse? Goro is a non-clinical PhD on an admissions committee. He is a great resource for getting into medical school and deserves all the respect in the world in that realm. I’m sure he is also a fantastic teacher in whatever his field is. More residents than I care to count have told him time and time again he has a very superficial understanding of applying to residency programs, and shouldn’t be giving advice in that realm. Yes I’m going to ignore Goro when it comes to residency advice.

Hell, you seem to downplay the NRMP data, calling it “flawed” (with what reason or source?)

Let’s start with the simple fact it doesn’t even include a Step 1 score... there are numerous other factors that deflate the report but let’s start there.

Let’s look at the 2016 osteo charting outcome shall we? For general surgery, 49 applicant matched and 51 didn’t match. Those are the people who went through the match and did not have AOA fallback because they would have withdrew otherwise. A slightly more than half applicants didn’t match at all.

In fact, more applicants went unmatched with comlex score all the way up to 550, only at 550 and above do people start to match more, and 550-600 is a 50/50 chance.

Again, you speak of things you have literally zero understanding of. This is a very superficial understanding of reality. However there are people OP could contact who have actually matched ACGME surgery as a DO, OP should find these people. Their advice is infinitely more valuable than yours on this matter, I’m not even sure what an IR fellow is doing on a thread about DOs in general surgery.

If you really want to take this report at face value then OP has an 85% chance to match seeing as he has a COMLEX of 650+.
 

DrfluffyMD

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Are you intentionally being obtuse? Goro is a non-clinical PhD on an admissions committee. He is a great resource for getting into medical school and deserves all the respect in the world in that realm. I’m sure he is also a fantastic teacher in whatever his field is. More residents than I care to count have told him time and time again he has a very superficial understanding of applying to residency programs, and shouldn’t be giving advice in that realm. Yes I’m going to ignore Goro when it comes to residency advice.



Let’s start with the simple fact it doesn’t even include a Step 1 score... there are numerous other factors that deflate the report but let’s start there.



Again, you speak of things you have literally zero understanding of. This is a very superficial understanding of reality. However there are people OP could contact who have actually matched ACGME surgery as a DO, OP should find these people. Their advice is infinitely more valuable than yours on this matter, I’m not even sure what an IR fellow is doing on a thread about DOs in general surgery.

If you really want to take this report at face value then OP has an 85% chance to match seeing as he has a COMLEX of 650+.

Why don’t you enlighten us with your deeper understand of the ACGME match as a OMS 1?
 
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@AnatomyGrey12

No one comments about OP's chances... I feel like that you are painting a 'rosy' picture on multiple thread about the challenges DO face in multiple specialties. I remember there was one thread about ACGME derm where you said once a DO hit 240s in step1, all he/she has to do is to beef up other aspects of his/her application. 240s is not even a good score for derm for applicants coming from low/mid tier MD now...
 
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Peach Newport

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@AnatomyGrey12, I like you, but has anyone told you that you’re really dumb for such a smart guy?
 
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DrfluffyMD

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@AnatomyGrey12

No one comments about OP's chances... I feel like that you are painting a 'rosy' picture on multiple thread about the challenges DO face in multiple specialties. I remember there was one thread about ACGME derm where you said once a DO hit 240s in step1, all he/she has to do is to beef up other aspects of his/her application. 240s is not even a good score for derm for low/mid tier MD now...

In the NRMP 2017 data, 7/449 spots are filled by DOs. ERAS data showed 106 osteopathic applicants.

According to AnatomyGrey, probably only 7 out of 106 DO derm applicants got over 240.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

Why don’t you enlighten us with your deeper understand of the ACGME match as a OMS 1?

Appears I touched a nerve... I remind everyone reading that my comment that brought forth such condescension was to simply “go talk to people who had gone through the process before.” That’s it. Did I ever make any claim about knowledge of the ACGME match? No.
@AnatomyGrey12

No one comments about OP's chances... I feel like that you are painting a 'rosy' picture on multiple thread about the challenges DO face in multiple specialties. I remember there was one thread about ACGME derm where you said once a DO hit 240s in step1, all he/she has to do is to beef up other aspects of his/her application. 240s is not even a good score for derm for applicants coming from low/mid tier MD now...

A “rosy” picture? Dude what are you even talking about? Seeing as you are deciding to cherry pick comments from other random threads let me remind you what that comment was. I said that I was very familiar with the applications of a number of “super” DO matches (subspecialty surgery, Derm, IR, etc) and of those that I knew of there were only one or two who had over a 250. I then went on to say that what had been conveyed to me was that once board scores hit a certain point it all becomes about the other aspects of the application. I used 240 as an example because I literally know one of the DO derm matches last year had about a 240 and no they didn’t have any special connections. I never made it out to be an exact threshold. Please quote for me any exact instances I painted a “rosy picture” in any of the competitive fields. You only came to this thread to point this out so let’s see it.

@AnatomyGrey12, I like you, but has anyone told you that you’re really dumb for such a smart guy?

I’m going to always call people on their BS and if that makes me look “dumb” then so be it. People clearly came here with an agenda for some reason and decided to get all worked up because I told OP not to listen to the SDN mantra and to go get advice from people who have actually matched ACGME surgery as a DO.

In the NRMP 2017 data, 7/449 spots are filled by DOs. ERAS data showed 106 osteopathic applicants.

According to AnatomyGrey, probably only 7 out of 106 DO derm applicants got over 240.

Do you have anything useful to say in this thread or are you simply here break the TOS?
 
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Moose A Moose

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You should listen to @AnatomyGrey12 , a lot of what he’s saying has substantial truth. I’ve been knee-deep in gen surg data since I was an M1, and have talked to many a matched resident, as well as program directors.

There’s a lot more to it than that botched snapshot of data. Horrible, horrible source to rely on. There are several factors not touched upon which are necessary to form a complete picture.
 
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IslandStyle808

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I supposed that you can always put your head in the sand and ignore people like goro, who is a faculty at a DO school and persumably do more than just “admission”.

Hell, you seem to downplay the NRMP data, calling it “flawed” (with what reason or source?)

Let’s look at the 2016 osteo charting outcome shall we? For general surgery, 49 applicant matched and 51 didn’t match. Those are the people who went through the match and did not have AOA fallback because they would have withdrew otherwise. A slightly more than half applicants didn’t match at all.

In fact, more applicants went unmatched with comlex score all the way up to 550, only at 550 and above do people start to match more, and 550-600 is a 50/50 chance.

Good luck.

The one thing I have learned from SDN is that if things are taken at face value, then true understanding is never gained. A long time ago I used to use the NRMP data as gospel, but with time I realize there is more to the data than we realize. I will explain several things about the data.

1) Those people who actually scored higher on the COMLEX probably also more often than not took the USMLE. We are told at DO schools if our grades or practice exams are not up to snuff, then we should only take the COMLEX. Even worse, is when you attend DO schools who are admant that the COMLEX is all you need. So you have people who have no knowledge of where they are at compared with other applicants.

2) Applying to too few program. Even Caribbean students know to send out a large amount of program than US MD students, yet DO students on a whole don't do this. https://www.aamc.org/download/358920/data/surgery-gen.pdf

3) No research. You probably could be okay match into surgery without research as a DO. However, students are not given the same opportunities to pursue it as their MD counter parts and suffer because of it.

4) Poor to zero advising. DO school don't have nearly the amount of residencies as MD schools. So they base their understand from friends who are residents (at other programs) or attendings (in a non-academic setting) they have spoken too. It does helps (and unfortunately I am one of those people). However, they don't get the knowledge from official channels such as PDs or faculty who are actually accustomed to have DO students in their residency programs. People who can probably tell you where you are competitive, pick out the right programs, and can help you with your personal statement.

@AnatomyGrey12 is not brushing off the data, he is stating one should be weary in trusting it. We do listen to what you have to say also, if we didn't then I wouldn't have actually learned about that link I gave in point 2 ;). There is a lot of shades of gray to be considered and so one should really try to get in touch with people in these academic residencies. I don't think anyone is denying that.
 
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DrfluffyMD

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Appears I touched a nerve... I remind everyone reading that my comment that brought forth such condescension was to simply “go talk to people who had gone through the process before.” That’s it. Did I ever make any claim about knowledge of the ACGME match? No.


A “rosy” picture? Dude what are you even talking about? Seeing as you are deciding to cherry pick comments from other random threads let me remind you what that comment was. I said that I was very familiar with the applications of a number of “super” DO matches (subspecialty surgery, Derm, IR, etc) and of those that I knew of there were only one or two who had over a 250. I then went on to say that what had been conveyed to me was that once board scores hit a certain point it all becomes about the other aspects of the application. I used 240 as an example because I literally know one of the DO derm matches last year had about a 240 and no they didn’t have any special connections. I never made it out to be an exact threshold. Please quote for me any exact instances I painted a “rosy picture” in any of the competitive fields. You only came to this thread to point this out so let’s see it.



I’m going to always call people on their BS and if that makes me look “dumb” then so be it. People clearly came here with an agenda for some reason and decided to get all worked up because I told OP not to listen to the SDN mantra and to go get advice from people who have actually matched ACGME surgery as a DO.



Do you have anything useful to say in this thread or are you simply here break the TOS?

Please, find one post in this thread I made where TOS was broken? I was literally extrapolate from what you said about derm applicants. Either you are correct and only a handful of DOs made over 240 or you are dead wrong because ACGME derm is very difficult to obtain. I’ll let you figure it out.
 
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DrfluffyMD

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The one thing I have learned from SDN is that if things are taken at face value, then true understanding is never gained. A long time ago I used to use the NRMP data as gospel, but with time I realize there is more to the data than we realize. I will explain several things about the data.

1) Those people who actually scored higher on the COMLEX probably also more often than not took the USMLE. We are told at DO schools if our grades or practice exams are not up to snuff, then we should only take the COMLEX. Even worse, is when you attend DO schools who are admant that the COMLEX is all you need. So you have people who have no knowledge of where they are at compared with other applicants.

2) Applying to too few program. Even Caribbean students know to send out a large amount of program than US MD students, yet DO students on a whole don't do this. https://www.aamc.org/download/358920/data/surgery-gen.pdf

3) No research. You probably could be okay match into surgery without research as a DO. However, students are not given the same opportunities to pursue it as their MD counter parts and suffer because of it.

4) Poor to zero advising. DO school don't have nearly the amount of residencies as MD schools. So they base their understand from friends who are residents (at other programs) or attendings (in a non-academic setting) they have spoken too. It does helps (and unfortunately I am one of those people). However, they don't get the knowledge from official channels such as PDs or faculty who are actually accustomed to have DO students in their residency programs. People who can probably tell you where you are competitive, pick out the right programs, and can help you with your personal statement.

@AnatomyGrey12 is not brushing off the data, he is stating one should be weary in trusting it. We do listen to what you have to say also, if we didn't then I wouldn't have actually learned about that link I gave in point 2 ;). There is a lot of shades of gray to be considered and so one should really try to get in touch with people in these academic residencies. I don't think anyone is denying that.

You know what’s sad about this whole thread? This is basically a replay of people vs evidence based medicine.

Oh, the randomized trial says xyz but because of “random factor” the data isn’t valid!

I agree that whatever factor you listed above is probably true, but given similar level of advertising, research, and step score, a USMD will absolutely destroy a DO grad in the gen surg match. I know this how? Because my wife is intimately involved in gen surg residency selection and they have never matched a DO due to prevailing opinion in their department. Not sure if it’s the right thing but that’s just how it is.

Now, if you are a M1, you should focus on things like your step 1 (not COMLEX, USMLE) if you want to match at something competitive in ACGME or if you must be an activist, complain about how many new DO schools are being opened and dilute down your degree, rather than brush away hard data and say “listen to the mystics that are fourth years who matched”.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I was literally extrapolate from what you said about derm applicants.

Please quote me where I said anything specific about derm applicants. Do it. I don’t hide my post history, go find it and post it here. I’ve never said a thing about derm applicants. You have no clue what you are talking about, and yes calling a member out the way you did is a violation of the TOS.

rather than brush away hard data and say “listen to the mystics that are fourth years who matched”.

You yourself just said to focus on the USMLE. So which is it? Worry about the USMLE or focus on a report that doesn’t even include it? Make up your mind. Not including USMLE scores isn’t some “random factor.” It is literally THE factor..... I think you’re simply pulling stuff out your butt at this point because you know you are wrong but won’t admit it.



I agree that whatever factor you listed above is probably true, but given similar level of advertising, research, and step score, a USMD will absolutely destroy a DO grad in the gen surg match. I know this how? Because my wife is intimately involved in gen surg residency selection and they have never matched a DO due to prevailing opinion in their department. Not sure if it’s the right thing but that’s just how it is.

Who has ever argued this isn’t the case? No one. This is a great straw man though, very nice.
 
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GoSpursGo

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Friendly reminder to all involved to please keep this thread civil. It's important for there to be lively discussion about disagreements, but we can do that without personal insults and name calling. If the thread continues to devolve into a flame war, it may be closed.
 
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Scrubs101

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I don’t really get what everyone is so strongly disagreeing about, y’all just seem to be talking passed eachother.

On one hand we all agree that DOs will not match as well or as easily to GS as USMDs, as @DrfluffyMD and @Goro have said and have quoted using anecdotes and the PD questionnaire. Which i fully agree with.

And on the other hand @AnatomyGrey12 and others are saying the match data is flawed since it lacks USMLE scores. Correct me if I’m wrong but all he’s saying is OP can get a more accurate picture of how to match ACGME GS by talking to DOs that have done it, and that the more advised an applicant is the better the chances they have of matching and less likely they are to fall into the whole “applied to too few residencies”/“over estimating competitiveness” issues a lot of DOs with poor advising do fall into. I see nothing wrong with this.

No one here is saying DOs match as well as MDs in ACGME GS, all I’m getting from this is seek out mentors in the field. My opinion based off what I’ve seen and heard? A well advised DO applicant with a 230+ would have a decent shot at matching ACGME GS. Will they get less interviews? Yes. Will they need to apply broadly? Yes. Will it be at some mid-high tier place? Probably not.

I’m just a first year OP so my advice is worth close to nothing on your chances of matching/what you should do to help. But for whatever it’s worth based on what i’ve seen from people that have done it, i think you’ve got a solid shot at matching, apply broadly and aim for whatever the low tier/community programs are in GS (as i have no idea)
 
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IslandStyle808

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You know what’s sad about this whole thread? This is basically a replay of people vs evidence based medicine.

Oh, the randomized trial says xyz but because of “random factor” the data isn’t valid!

I agree that whatever factor you listed above is probably true, but given similar level of advertising, research, and step score, a USMD will absolutely destroy a DO grad in the gen surg match. I know this how? Because my wife is intimately involved in gen surg residency selection and they have never matched a DO due to prevailing opinion in their department. Not sure if it’s the right thing but that’s just how it is.

Now, if you are a M1, you should focus on things like your step 1 (not COMLEX, USMLE) if you want to match at something competitive in ACGME or if you must be an activist, complain about how many new DO schools are being opened and dilute down your degree, rather than brush away hard data and say “listen to the mystics that are fourth years who matched”.

Eh? I never said to brush away the data. I said more akin to "take it with a grain of salt." I strongly support the taking of the USMLE and believe that all of this will end if DO schools are integrated to LCME.

Not saying having an application similar to a US MD will erase the gap either. However, it will close the gap. DO students in general don't get the same level of guidance that MD students do. As proof of this, I knew someone who thought you need a 270 to match into surgery (in this person's defense they were an MS-1 at the time)...
 
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AnatomyGrey12

Correct me if I’m wrong but all he’s saying is OP can get a more accurate picture of how to match ACGME GS by talking to DOs that have done it, and that the more advised an applicant is the better the chances they have of matching and less likely they are to fall into the whole “applied to too few residencies”/“over estimating competitiveness” issues a lot of DOs with poor advising do fall into. I see nothing wrong with this.

all I’m getting from this is seek out mentors in the field.

Yep, I have no idea what they were freaking out over. Level headed ideas have no place in this thread.
 
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Gray Fox

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OP, Anecdotes and feel good stories are fine and dandy until you don't Match. I have friends who had higher stats and lots more research than you from reputable MD schools who didn't Match gen surg. No red flags, personable, likable folk. They likely had great LORs and plenty of safety programs. But gen surg is competitive, like radiology and EM, and when they got the bad news on Monday, they were devastated. I don't want that to be you.

I feel like the people who get burned the hardest are the people who underestimate their competition. My best friend just finished the gen surg interview circuit, and the people he interviewed with were absolute monsters. The competition from your MD colleagues will be cut throat, as will be from your DO colleagues who are as hungry and hungrier for a spot than you. With new schools opening up like McDonalds and more and more applicants, it ain't getting easier. Even worse, I bet more and more top applicants are hoarding invites given the rising competition (this happens all the time, I've seen it). The scraps are divided among the rest.

I like posters like @DrfluffyMD because they are our seniors who went through the process and know it better than us. You may not like how he communicates it, but what he's saying should carry more weight than anyone in med school. He tells the hard truth, but it's still the truth. You can't ignore the hard data. Go through the NRMP 2016 PD surveys and get a better sense of what you're up against. Good luck.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

Yep, level headed idea like observance of hard data is an important part of rational discourse.

Like I said, the hard data you keep quoting gives OP an 85% chance to match. Until the “hard data” includes the most basic of criteria then it should he taken with a massive boulder of salt, but you hold onto it because it fits your narrative. Critical thinking is an important trait that you clearly have since you’re a fellow, I suggest you use some in this instance.

I have friends who had higher stats and lots more research than you from reputable MD schools who didn't Match gen surg.

Unlike the DO charting outcomes the MD charting outcomes is a fantastic resource and is very indicative of match chances. If your friends truly had better stats, more research, and didn’t match General Surgery as USMDs then they had massive red flags or applied exceptionally poorly. The match rate for USMDs with 220+ is a 93%....
 
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DrfluffyMD

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OP, Anecdotes and feel good stories are fine and dandy until you don't Match. I have friends who had higher stats and lots more research than you from reputable MD schools who didn't Match gen surg. No red flags, personable, likable folk. They likely had great LORs and plenty of safety programs. But gen surg is competitive, like radiology and EM, and when they got the bad news on Monday, they were devastated. I don't want that to be you.

I feel like the people who get burned the hardest are the people who underestimate their competition. My best friend just finished the gen surg interview circuit, and the people he interviewed with were absolute monsters. The competition from your MD colleagues will be cut throat, as will be from your DO colleagues who are as hungry and hungrier for a spot than you. With new schools opening up like McDonalds and more and more applicants, it ain't getting easier. Even worse, I bet more and more top applicants are hoarding invites given the rising competition (this happens all the time, I've seen it). The scraps are divided among the rest.

I like posters like @DrfluffyMD because they are our seniors who went through the process and know it better than us. You may not like how he communicates it, but what he's saying should carry more weight than anyone in med school. He tells the hard truth, but it's still the truth. You can't ignore the hard data. Go through the NRMP 2016 PD surveys and get a better sense of what you're up against. Good luck.

If you look at the ERAS statistics, you will see that there is quite a bit of increase in the number of programs each indivduals apply to every year. This means people are going on more interviews and the weaker applicants are hurt by it.
 
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Who Knows!

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People just love to hate on here. 237 is a competitive score for Gen surgery, apply broadly and you will receive interviews. Get some good LOR's and a publication and you should be fine. People are acting like it's impossible on here. I think you would get better advice from the DO forum, cause Im sure people who have done it before as DO's will comment. I am also applying gen surgery (usmle - 242-247 , yes I am a DO). Best of luck to you mate.

Inbox me if you have heard from any DO's who went through the process. Cheers.
 
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DNC127

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OP, Anecdotes and feel good stories are fine and dandy until you don't Match. I have friends who had higher stats and lots more research than you from reputable MD schools who didn't Match gen surg. No red flags, personable, likable folk. They likely had great LORs and plenty of safety programs. But gen surg is competitive, like radiology and EM, and when they got the bad news on Monday, they were devastated. I don't want that to be you.

I feel like the people who get burned the hardest are the people who underestimate their competition. My best friend just finished the gen surg interview circuit, and the people he interviewed with were absolute monsters. The competition from your MD colleagues will be cut throat, as will be from your DO colleagues who are as hungry and hungrier for a spot than you. With new schools opening up like McDonalds and more and more applicants, it ain't getting easier. Even worse, I bet more and more top applicants are hoarding invites given the rising competition (this happens all the time, I've seen it). The scraps are divided among the rest.

I like posters like @DrfluffyMD because they are our seniors who went through the process and know it better than us. You may not like how he communicates it, but what he's saying should carry more weight than anyone in med school. He tells the hard truth, but it's still the truth. You can't ignore the hard data. Go through the NRMP 2016 PD surveys and get a better sense of what you're up against. Good luck.


This guy slams anecdotes and then proceeds to tell a made up anecdote lol. Like AG said... if your "friends" were MD's with better stats research, ect. they would have matched unless the did something super dumb, or applied super dumb.
 
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Gray Fox

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Like I said, the hard data you keep quoting gives OP an 85% chance to match. Until the “hard data” includes the most basic of criteria then it should he taken with a massive boulder of salt, but you hold onto it because it fits your narrative. Critical thinking is an important trait that you clearly have since you’re a fellow, I suggest you use some in this instance.



Unlike the DO charting outcomes the MD charting outcomes is a fantastic resource and is very indicative of match chances. If your friends truly had better stats, more research, and didn’t match General Surgery as USMDs then they had massive red flags or applied exceptionally poorly. The match rate for USMDs with 220+ is a 93%....

I like you man. I really do. But as you progress from OMS-1 to OMS-4 and have a better sense of the Match process, I hope your willingness to speak poorly of colleagues you don't know changes. My friends did everything right. They didn't have massive red flags and they applied to the "right" amount and type of programs. Their surgery faculty was as baffled as they were. But you'll learn that sometimes bad things happen to good people who do everything right.

Unfortunately, they became cautionary tales for the other competitive applicants 1 year below them, and now we have more people applying to more programs and going to more interviews. Who loses? Everyone.

As a wise philosopher once said, "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come."
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I hope your willingness to speak poorly of colleagues you don't know changes. My friends did everything right. They didn't have massive red flags and they applied to the "right" amount and type of programs. Their surgery faculty was as baffled as they were.

Dude, no one is speaking poorly of any colleagues. Your story simply doesn’t make any sort of sense as the “hard data” that you and a few of the posters here are sitting here spouting as gospel truth says it doesn’t make sense. The number of people who didn’t match with applications like your friends can almost be counted on two hands. By step score alone it makes no sense: OP said they had a 237 and you said your friends had “better scores” so for all intents and purposes let’s just make it a round 240. The number of USMDs who did not match general surgery with a 240+ was 11. Only 11 people in the whole country didn’t match with those scores yet you are here claiming to know multiple people who this happened to. Either you literally know some of the handful of people this happened to, these people greatly over exaggerated their competitiveness to you, or you straight up BS’d the story....

Sorry but if someone doesn’t match as a USMD to general surgery with good research and a step score higher than OP (237) then they most assuredly didn’t “do everything right.” If the story is true then it’s likely they over gauged their competitiveness and didn’t apply broadly enough or only applied high-mid to top tier academic places.
 
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sab3156

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Yep, level headed idea like observance of hard data is an important part of rational discourse.

You are talking to people who continually tell others on SDN that DOs can match into ultra competitive specialties at top tier places without any sort of connections to the program in the form of influential mentors/faculty vouching for them, as long as they have stats/research comparable with MDs. I think you are wasting your breath, my friend. For every statistical record you show, they will have an "anecdote" to refute you. They will always have the last word in the form of an anecdote.
 
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Gray Fox

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Dude, no one is speaking poorly of any colleagues. Your story simply doesn’t make any sort of sense as the “hard data” that you and a few of the posters here are sitting here spouting as gospel truth says it doesn’t make sense. The number of people who didn’t match with applications like your friends can almost be counted on two hands. By step score alone it makes no sense: OP said they had a 237 and you said your friends had “better scores” so for all intents and purposes let’s just make it a round 240. The number of USMDs who did not match general surgery with a 240+ was 11. Only 11 people in the whole country didn’t match with those scores yet you are here claiming to know multiple people who this happened to. Either you literally know some of the handful of people this happened to, these people greatly over exaggerated their competitiveness to you, or you straight up BS’d the story....

Sorry but if someone doesn’t match as a USMD to general surgery with good research and a step score higher than OP (237) then they most assuredly didn’t “do everything right.” If the story is true then it’s likely they over gauged their competitiveness and didn’t apply broadly enough or only applied high-mid to top tier academic places.

Data on US allopathic seniors
2016 unmatched in gen surg = 149
2017 unmatched in gen surg = 85
I don't see the #s stratified by STEP score on NRMP data.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf
Maybe you assumed they were all from the same year. Not the case. Scrambled into prelim surg spots.
I have no reason to lie or exaggerate on an anonymous website. I'm trying to help out future applicants.
 
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IWillMakeIt1

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OP will match into GS if s/he also has the right connections
 
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AnatomyGrey12

You are talking to people who continually tell others on SDN that DOs can match into ultra competitive specialties at top tier places without any sort of connections to the program in the form of influential mentors/faculty vouching for them, as long as they have stats/research comparable with MDs. I think you are wasting your breath, my friend. For every statistical record you show, they will have an "anecdote" to refute you. They will always have the last word in the form of an anecdote.

Lol, I would love a direct link to anywhere the first bolded was said, and as for the second bolded please show me any statistical report that shows anything close to representing your opinion or one that has any sort of relevance at all honestly.


Data on US allopathic seniors
2016 unmatched in gen surg = 149
2017 unmatched in gen surg = 85
I don't see the #s stratified by STEP score on NRMP data.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf
Maybe you assumed they were all from the same year. Not the case. Scrambled into prelim surg spots.
I have no reason to lie or exaggerate on an anonymous website. I'm trying to help out future applicants.

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf
 

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In the context of discussing (and I quote) the following: "Any DO matching into a competitive specialty at a top tier program is doing it through massive networking and massive connections.", you replied with the following:

upload_2018-1-15_19-57-29.png



I don't know, but it seems that to me that you overestimate your experience and knowledge about the ACGME match. What makes the situation worse is that you are condescending to people who are actually knowledgeable about the process. It's nothing short of arrogant and insulting. Out of all people, someone in medical school should understand the dangers of baseless opinions.

Frankly, I think your posts should be ignored by the OP and he should listen to the experienced members who have been through the process.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

In the context of discussing (and I quote) the following: "Any DO matching into a competitive specialty at a top tier program is doing it through massive networking and massive connections.", you replied with the following:

Nice cherry picked comment. Link the whole convo. I never said what you’re claiming me to have said.

I don't know, but it seems that to me that you overestimate your experience and knowledge about the ACGME match.

Aren’t you a pre-med? Also maybe go read this thread again and please point out to me anywhere I made comments that are even debatable.

What makes the situation worse is that you are condescending to people who are actually knowledgeable about the process. It's nothing short of arrogant and insulting. Out of all people, someone in medical school should understand the dangers of baseless opinions.

No one in this thread has any experience with DOs applying to general surgery outside of the student above who is currently applying, who agrees with everything I’ve said coincidentally... telling people they are wrong isn’t condescending, it’s simply fact.

Frankly, I think your posts should be ignored by the OP and he should listen to the experienced members who have been through the process.

Instead of making this a witch hunt against AnatomyGrey12 because people don’t like that a MS1 is right maybe people (read: you and a few others) should read the thread again because the bolded has been my point the whole freaking time, and none of the posters who are having a tizzy fit have any experience whatsoever with the process of a DO going into gen surg.
 

DrfluffyMD

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Aren’t you a pre-med? Also maybe go read this thread again and please point out to me anywhere I made comments that are even debatable.



Instead of making this a witch hunt against AnatomyGrey12 because people don’t like that a MS1 is right maybe people (read: you and a few others) should read the thread again because the bolded has been my point the whole freaking time, and none of the posters who are having a tizzy fit have any experience whatsoever with the process of a DO going into gen surg.

I see that you dislike others point out your lack of experience in graduate medical education but seem to jump right in to point out that particular poster maybe a premed.

There is no witchhunt here, however. There is nothing personal for meabout this discourse as I am neither a DO nor will I be pursuing anymore GME.

For the record, definitey listen to those who are familiar with the process.
 
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