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General Surgery Residency as a DO

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AnatomyGrey12


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I see that you dislike others point out your lack of experience in graduate medical education but seem to jump right in to point out that particular poster maybe a premed.

Bruh, I asked him a question. I just wanted to clarify that the person who was jumping on the bandwagon of telling me I have no experience with stuff has even less than I do. Particularly a poster that has a history of cherry picking comments to fit his narrative.

like people whose wife is active participating in ACGME surgery rank meeting or faculty at a DO school.

First, you might literally be the only resident on here who has ever suggested to listen to Goro when it comes to residency... and someday you will see why. MeatTornado might have something to say about that, one if the opinions that I share with him. In addition you said so yourself that your wife is at a program that has never taken a DO, so how does that provide any sort of insight into a DO applying to general surgery? How does she know what it takes? If we were talking about breaking into her program or programs like it then absolutely that is a dead ringer for advice but for community programs? Again I’m going to actually trust people who have gone through this exact process over yours, and so should OP.

You can claim there is no witch hunt, but you clearly have an issue seeing as in all of your posts there wasn’t a single piece of advice to the original question.
 
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sab3156

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Nice cherry picked comment. Link the whole convo. I never said what you’re claiming me to have said.

I just took a screenshot and showed you what you said in reply to my post regarding how DOs cannot match into elite programs in competitive specialties without a high level of connections/networking in the field. Everything you asked for is in your post. You (and many other DO students/DOs, from what it seems like in the thread) think that it simply takes nothing more than a bit of bravery for a DO to match into such places. It demonstrates a high level of delusion with regard to the ACGME match for DOs.

Here's the thread, since you asked for it: Smoke & Mirrors at Idaho Com

Also, you know that I'm not a premed, so I'm not sure why you asked. Additionally, the information you were trying to counter in that thread was information given to my face by several PDs, renowned faculty members, and residents/fellows in a couple of the most competitive programs in this country at a couple of the nation's top hospitals. Like I have told you before, I think they would know better than you.

I know this isn't too relevant to this thread in particular - however, I just want to point out that your arrogance about the ACGME match in general seems to be due to extreme ignorance and a need to have the last word.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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I think ACGME gen surg is totally doable with a 237, with a few caveats.

1) chances are pretty much only at low-tier, no name places, and the occasional low-ranked university program. Anything that even smells like a prestigious name in gen surg is a no-go w/ a DO and that step 1.

2) I think the major reason very few DOs go into ACGME surg is because they just don’t have the scores. 237 is actually a pretty high score for a DO. I think people on SDN vastly overestimate the average DO board score. In threads where it’s discussed, there are people saying that their school’s average is a 225! However, the NBME numbers say that DOs consistently average around 213.

My totally uninformed opinion is that, especially if OP has a research project or 2, and applies broadly without regard to geography, she/he will be fine for community gensurg.

My school's average is a 225, it's always been around a 220-225. I don't doubt that average at all and I genuinely think that probably everyone can get that score with enough hard work. I'm more skeptical of the average DO student scoring a 213 tbh.

This is to say however, if that is not some sort of mode or median as opposed to mean.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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I just took a screenshot and showed you what you said in reply to my post regarding how DOs cannot match into elite programs in competitive specialties without a high level of connections/networking in the field. Everything you asked for is in your post. You (and many other DO students/DOs, from what it seems like in the thread) think that it simply takes nothing more than a bit of bravery for a DO to match into such places. It demonstrates a high level of delusion with regard to the ACGME match for DOs.

Here's the thread, since you asked for it: Smoke & Mirrors at Idaho Com

Also, you know that I'm not a premed, so I'm not sure why you asked. Additionally, the information you were trying to counter in that thread was information given to my face by several PDs, renowned faculty members, and residents/fellows in a couple of the most competitive programs in this country at a couple of the nation's top hospitals. Like I have told you before, I think they would know better than you.

I know this isn't too relevant to this thread in particular - however, I just want to point out that your arrogance about the ACGME match in general seems to be due to extreme ignorance and a need to have the last word.

Where, Grey may be a bit optimistic, I'd argue you go far more in the direction of pessimism. I'd say that it's clear there are enormous road blocks to DOs matching into competitive specialties. But I'll also argue that it does happen enough for it to be realistic for very motivated individuals.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

I just took a screenshot and showed you what you said in reply to my post regarding how DOs cannot match into elite programs in competitive specialties without a high level of connections/networking in the field. Everything you asked for is in your post. You (and many other DO students/DOs, from what it seems like in the thread) think that it simply takes nothing more than a bit of bravery for a DO to match into such places. It demonstrates a high level of delusion with regard to the ACGME match for DOs.

Here's the thread, since you asked for it: Smoke & Mirrors at Idaho Com

Also, you know that I'm not a premed, so I'm not sure why you asked. Additionally, the information you were trying to counter in that thread was information given to my face by several PDs, renowned faculty members, and residents/fellows in a couple of the most competitive programs in this country at a couple of the nation's top hospitals. Like I have told you before, I think they would know better than you.

I know this isn't too relevant to this thread in particular - however, I just want to point out that your arrogance about the ACGME match in general seems to be due to extreme ignorance and a need to have the last word.

:smack: If that’s what you got out of what I said in that thread then I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Have a good day.
 

Eagles6389

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Not sure why @AnatomyGrey12 is getting a lot of hate in this thread. He's made it clear that its tougher to match into general surgery as a DO. He's also pointed out that the 2016 osteopathic charting outcome data for general surgery has some potential flaws. How many of those DO applicants who failed to match did not have a 220+ usmle score? There's also undoubtedly going to be some DO applicants who were only in the ACGME match because they failed to match in the AOA match, and probably weren't a very competitive applicant in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, general surgery is tough to get as a DO. It's definitely not even close to a 93% match rate with a 220+ USMLE like it is for US MDs (according to the charting outcomes). But, with the OP's 237 usmle step 1, he honestly has a decent shot of matching.

The bigger problem is that a lot of DOs aren't aware of how much tougher it is to match into since they are in fact a DO. My school does a horrible job of advising students of their chances in the specialty they want to go into. There are DO applicants for ACGME general surgery every year without a USMLE score and an average COMLEX score, most likely didn't match, and then scramble into something else. That's why its wise to at least have a backup plan if you fail to match general surgery (whether you're willing to go through a surg prelim year, or apply to a second specialty as a backup). That way, you aren't blindsided scrambling into a family medicine residency in the middle of nowhere.

I think with a 230+ usmle you have a decent shot at matching, with a 220-230 usmle you might have a 50/50 or 60/40 shot at matching (where its worth it to have a backup specialty in mind), and then with a sub 220 usmle, you should definitely have a backup plan ready because your odds aren't great. This is just my opinion formed from the charting outcomes, talking with DOs who matched into ACGME general surgery, and looking at interview invites stats for DOs in the general surgery google doc.
 
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Rekt

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I think ACGME gen surg is totally doable with a 237, with a few caveats.

1) chances are pretty much only at low-tier, no name places, and the occasional low-ranked university program. Anything that even smells like a prestigious name in gen surg is a no-go w/ a DO and that step 1.

2) I think the major reason very few DOs go into ACGME surg is because they just don’t have the scores. 237 is actually a pretty high score for a DO. I think people on SDN vastly overestimate the average DO board score. In threads where it’s discussed, there are people saying that their school’s average is a 225! However, the NBME numbers say that DOs consistently average around 213.

My totally uninformed opinion is that, especially if OP has a research project or 2, and applies broadly without regard to geography, she/he will be fine for community gensurg.

Huh? You know the most recent average for Step 1 for USMDs only was 228 right? Literally only 3 points higher than that average, also my schools average was higher than 225. I'd love to see an official source on that 213.
 
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Goro

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Bruh, I asked him a question. I just wanted to clarify that the person who was jumping on the bandwagon of telling me I have no experience with stuff has even less than I do. Particularly a poster that has a history of cherry picking comments to fit his narrative.



First, you might literally be the only resident on here who has ever suggested to listen to Goro when it comes to residency... and someday you will see why. MeatTornado might have something to say about that, one if the opinions that I share with him. In addition you said so yourself that your wife is at a program that has never taken a DO, so how does that provide any sort of insight into a DO applying to general surgery? How does she know what it takes? If we were talking about breaking into her program or programs like it then absolutely that is a dead ringer for advice but for community programs? Again I’m going to actually trust people who have gone through this exact process over yours, and so should OP.

You can claim there is no witch hunt, but you clearly have an issue seeing as in all of your posts there wasn’t a single piece of advice to the original question.
SDNers should avoid the conceit of thinking that they alone have mastered the ins and outs of the match process, especially when they are in their early pre-clinical years (as in MS 0.5), and especially avoid thinking that PhDs with > decade of medical education experiences haven't learned something about the match process. It's dismissive and beneath commenting on further.

Being on SDN for > five years has taught me something as well. I listen to my learned resident and attending colleagues (like Rekt), for one.

I have a friend who is a PhD at an established DO school who runs the match process side of the Clinical Education dep't there, and their grads have been matching quite well. Better than mine, much to my Dean's chagrin.

Meat and I kissed and made up, BTW. I surmise that his pugnaciousness came from being a fellow NYer, and from hearing years of the profession's Kool-Aid from naive pre-meds. He's doing quite well.
 
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IsWhat

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The vast majority of DO students self select out of surgical specialties, and the few who choose that route are often ignorant of the high standard MD students have set when it comes to a competetive application. I worked for a PD of a top tier IM program before medical school and he was open to DO applications, but it was rare to see a DO application that was even close to being competetive - let alone interview worthy. I suspect surgery is very similar to top tier IM in this regard.

Most surgical PDs have probably never seen a DO application up to par, and thus have never interviewed or ranked one. If OP has the application to be competive in surgery, he/she will most likely get some love. The hardest part for DO students looking outside of primary care is knowing how competetive you actually are, because most of your classmates are going to have applications reflecting a primary care applicant, and thus your school administrators are going to be pretty clueless as well.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

SDNers should avoid the conceit of thinking that they alone have mastered the ins and outs of the match process, especially when they are in their early pre-clinical years (as in MS 0.5), and especially avoid thinking that PhDs with > decade of medical education experiences haven't learned something about the match process. It's dismissive and beneath commenting on further.

I never claimed to ever have “mastered the ins and outs of the match process” Goro... and I have no issue with you so I apologize if it appeared that way. I do think there are better resources out there for the outlook of DOs applying to general surgery than the links you listed but that really isn’t my issue with this thread at all. I have no argument with you.

I stand by my original statement, there are a lot of misconceptions on SDN of DOs applying to ACGME surgery (and major flaws in the DO NRMP data) and the best course of action for OP would be to find current DO residents at ACGME programs and get advice from them.
 
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Goro

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I never claimed to ever have “mastered the ins and outs of the match process” Goro... and I have no issue with you so I apologize if it appeared that way. I do think there are better resources out there for the outlook of DOs applying to general surgery than the links you listed but that really isn’t my issue with this thread at all. I have no argument with you.

I stand by my original statement, there are a lot of misconceptions on SDN of DOs applying to ACGME surgery (and major flaws in the DO NRMP data) and the best course of action for OP would be to find current DO residents at ACGME programs and get advice from them.
Fair enough; I think that we agree on a lot more than we disagree.
 
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Gray Fox

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SDNers should avoid the conceit of thinking that they alone have mastered the ins and outs of the match process, especially when they are in their early pre-clinical years (as in MS 0.5), and especially avoid thinking that PhDs with > decade of medical education experiences haven't learned something about the match process. It's dismissive and beneath commenting on further.

Being on SDN for > five years has taught me something as well. I listen to my learned resident and attending colleagues (like Rekt), for one.

I have a friend who is a PhD at an established DO school who runs the match process side of the Clinical Education dep't there, and their grads have been matching quite well. Better than mine, much to my Dean's chagrin.

Meat and I kissed and made up, BTW. I surmise that his pugnaciousness came from being a fellow NYer, and from hearing years of the profession's Kool-Aid from naive pre-meds. He's doing quite well.

By golly, I miss @MeatTornado ...
 
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Neopolymath

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The DO charting outcomes is the definition of not simply useless data, but worse, bad data. Not having USMLE scores was baffling and very stupid. I can't even begin to understand why that wasn't published. It muddied the waters even more and made going into the merger even more confusing for no reason. Hopefully the next one will include, you know, the most important aspect of your application for every medical student, but especially DO students...
 
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JamesPotterMS-3

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(Current OMS-III planning on going into surgery)

With regards to general surgery, specifically, the competitiveness to match in GS has been falling for the past decade. Reality is most top USMDs are flocking to other specialties for various reasons. Surgery is one of the services in a hospital that must be filled to capacity. One or two less (unfilled) IM residents probably would not cause a problem but one or two less PGY-3 GS residents makes a big impact on call schedules for both attending and residents, often times across multiple hospitals. Reality is GS has become less competitive and, thus, the specialty has become more open to DOs.


Now, back to OP's question. 237 will get you interviews at many community programs. By the time we apply, there will be one match. I honestly would not take risk or effort to apply through NMS unless I wanted to go back to Michigan, Ohio, or Pennsylvania (where some the DO surgery programs are stronger than some of the community programs).
 
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Gorne

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Is this thread really an M1 trying to educate senior med students and faculty on the residency process application?
 
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AnatomyGrey12

Go look at some of the DO in ACGME surgery type threads in the gen surg subform as there are a few people over there who are currently applying or have already matched and they can give you some good advice. There are a lot of misconceptions about DOs applying to surgery from what I’ve seen on SDN in general and you might not get great advice here. Find people who have done it.

Is this thread really an M1 trying to educate senior med students and faculty on the residency process application?

No go read it from the beginning. I never made any sort of argument about the residency application process... The quote above was my original quote that a few posters lost their ish over
 
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IslandStyle808

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Is this thread really an M1 trying to educate senior med students and faculty on the residency process application?

I feel like people are reading what they want to read, and not what the real point of the thread is...
 
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Clinical Postgraduate Years 3 to 5. During the third clinical year, residents in the general surgery track receive further training in general, endocrine, colorectal, oncologic, transplant and pediatric surgery, and in acute care and trauma.
 

SLC

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Everyone from my graduating class who wanted ACGME gen-surgery is in ACGME gen-surgery residency right now (there were 4). Take that for what it’s worth.
 
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RNthenDoc

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1A’d a 3rd year gen surg from KCUMB last night.

They told me DO’s don’t have as hard of a time matching Gen surg as many believe.

That’s as far as the conversation went due to us being busy, but I shrugged and took the comment at face value.
 
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sab3156

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1A’d a 3rd year gen surg from KCUMB last night.

They told me DO’s don’t have as hard of a time matching Gen surg as many believe.

That’s as far as the conversation went due to us being busy, but I shrugged and took the comment at face value.

To be fair, KCUMB is in the neighborhood of two surgery programs (UMKC and KUMC) which have consistently taken KCUMB grads for a very, very long time. Not sure where the KCUMB grad you spoke to is, though. However, what they said doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of PDs do not and will not interview DOs and there is a less than 50% match rate for DOs overall.
 
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Scrubb

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Huh? You know the most recent average for Step 1 for USMDs only was 228 right? Literally only 3 points higher than that average, also my schools average was higher than 225. I'd love to see an official source on that 213.

Clueless matriculating student here. Are you saying you believe the DO average is above 213, or below?
 
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Eagles6389

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Clueless matriculating student here. Are you saying you believe the DO average is above 213, or below?

I'm not sure where the 213 data is from. The average for DO students is likely in the low to mid 220s (in this range at my school). It is important to note that only about half of all DOs end up taking the USMLE, and self selects for stronger students. I could see the average dropping into the mid 210s if every DO student had to take the test, but that's not the case.
 
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gsaoa2018

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FWIW:

I am a DO student who applied to gen surg (both AOA and ACGME)- USMLE Step 1: 210; Step 2: >250 and got 10 ACGME interviews (applied to ~50 programs)... its definitely doable.
 
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DNC127

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FWIW:

I am a DO student who applied to gen surg (both AOA and ACGME)- USMLE Step 1: 210; Step 2: >250 and got 10 ACGME interviews... its definitely doable.

did you match AOA or did you skip the AOA match? How many programs did you apply to?
 

gsaoa2018

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did you match AOA or did you skip the AOA match? How many programs did you apply to?

I ranked my top program AOA (that I absolutely loved) and matched there. I applied to about 50 ACGME programs. With my 210 Step 1 I never thought I would get any interviews.... worked hard to get a great Step 2 score. No program director or anyone mentioned my 210 on interviews.
 
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shisong

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FWIW:

I am a DO student who applied to gen surg (both AOA and ACGME)- USMLE Step 1: 210; Step 2: >250 and got 10 ACGME interviews (applied to ~50 programs)... its definitely doable.

wth... step 1 210? what were your comlex score if you dont mind?

and what is your personal belief of receiving 10 + ACGME GS interview?

lastly, did any of the interviewer bring up ur step 1 score?
Most of them don't pay as well and require added years of training. Why not just work less hours in IM?
 

gsaoa2018

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wth... step 1 210? what were your comlex score if you dont mind?

and what is your personal belief of receiving 10 + ACGME GS interview?

lastly, did any of the interviewer bring up ur step 1 score?

Comlex 1 609 Comlex 2 727

Not sure what you mean by "what is your personal belief of receiving 10 +..."

And no, if anything they talked about my Step 2 score...
 
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DOFOSHO

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I’m wondering if I have a decent chance at matching into a ACGME general surgery residency as a DO? I’m interested in doing a community program (2 in my home state, have taken DOs also). It seems from last years match data matching is 50/50. My USMLE 1 is 237 and COMLEX 1 is 661. Haven’t done any research but am trying to get on a project soon. Wondering if I should even bother or do the AOA match?

237 is a good score, however, there are other things to take into account. What is the circumference of your bicep? Do you walk around with a permanent smirk on your face? Does your tip hang below your inseam? There are academic criteria which are screened during the application process, but come interview day, these are some other things that are heavily considered.
 
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electrolight

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It was a slower year for general surgery in 2017 as much more are interested at my school in 2018 and 2019, but here is the match data from my school to give an idea on scores.
4 matched ACGME gen surg scores 227-253
 

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JohnDoeDO

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Feisty thread...
OP feel free to message me. I’m a DO who just matched gen surg in the acgme. Your step 1 is better than mine (I scored a 234), so congratulations! You have a foot in the door. But you’ll need to keep it up and have some strategy when applying/auditioning, things that can’t be studied on the charting outcomes data nor overemphasized. It’s not impossible, but as one of like 3 students who matched acgme from my school, at least 3 others did not. I guess there’s your 50% stat of DOs who don’t match in GS.
 
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RNthenDoc

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237 is a good score, however, there are other things to take into account. What is the circumference of your bicep? Do you walk around with a permanent smirk on your face? Does your tip hang below your inseam? There are academic criteria which are screened during the application process, but come interview day, these are some other things that are heavily considered.

I was drinking water. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS.
 
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