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TooMuchResearch said:
I don't know how giving away a percentage of your portfolio to a financial advisor for information you can learn on your own is a positive step towards resolving financial issues.
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I agree. But for some people (like myself) who know absolutely nothing about finances and investing it can be huge benefit v. just diving into it and potentially blindly taking the advice of random anonymous people on the internet as gosple...oh wait...😏
 
circulus vitios said:
AAMC pulls data from MGMA, so I think I'll trust MGMA over whatever the hell company that is.

My "sweeping sums" are not guesses. As a single person you'll be taking home 58-62% of your gross pay, depending on where you live.

edit: Starting FM w/o obstetrics salary is $138k, starting pediatrics salary is $162k. lmao, sounds like a good survey.
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AAMC it is: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/280564/data/decide.pdf

I think your tax numbers are fair. I think the rest are naive. Please read some on The White Coat Investor when you get a chance. It's a good place to educate yourself so you avoid common mistakes. 🙂

Doctors are usually smart people, but people forget that finances do not come naturally to most. I think you are suffering from unique snowflake syndrome and believe that you have a handle on how these things work intuitively when you would actually benefit greatly from some professional advice (which is free on the internet! 😀).
 
Rik1111 said:
AAMC it is: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/280564/data/decide.pdf

I think your tax numbers are fair. I think the rest are naive. Please read some on The White Coat Investor when you get a chance. It's a good place to educate yourself so you avoid common mistakes. 🙂

Doctors are usually smart people, but people forget that finances do not come naturally to most. I think you are suffering from unique snowflake syndrome and believe that you have a handle on how these things work intuitively when you would actually benefit greatly from some professional advice (which is free on the internet! 😀).
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I've read The White Coat Investor and a lot of what he says is not new. Low expense ratio mutual funds; don't spend more than you earn; how to minimize tax exposure. I've heard it a million times before from a million different sources.

My number are not unrealistic and my idea of continuing to live like a resident is not naive. Look into the pitfalls of IBR and PSLF -- mainly, no one has actually used these programs -- and decide if you want to take the risk. A 20 or 30 year repayment schedule will waste literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. Living like a resident is the best idea and if you cannot control your spending or your spouse's spending for 3 or 4 more years after residency, then that is on you.
 
circulus vitios said:
I've read The White Coat Investor and a lot of what he says is not new. Low expense ratio mutual funds; don't spend more than you earn; how to minimize tax exposure. I've heard it a million times before from a million different sources.

My number are not unrealistic and my idea of continuing to live like a resident is not naive. Look into the pitfalls of IBR and PSLF -- mainly, no one has actually used these programs -- and decide if you want to take the risk. A 20 or 30 year repayment schedule will waste literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. Living like a resident is the best idea and if you cannot control your spending or your spouse's spending for 3 or 4 more years after residency, then that is on you.
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I definitely agree with you that the "living like a resident" plan is the best financial move. However, most people post-residency/fellowship are 30+ and many of them have growing families. I asked my lady, and she said living on Ramen at 32 is not an option. 😛 People tend to spend what they earn (which isn't to say that this is required or unavoidable, but it stands for the vast majority of people).

Like I said, I hope you are able to do this. It is among the best financial moves. Most people cannot/will not.
 
Rik1111 said:
I definitely agree with you that the "living like a resident" plan is the best financial move. However, most people post-residency/fellowship are 30+ and many of them have growing families. I asked my lady, and she said living on Ramen at 32 is not an option. 😛 People tend to spend what they earn (which isn't to say that this is required or unavoidable, but it stands for the vast majority of people).

Like I said, I hope you are able to do this. It is among the best financial moves. Most people cannot/will not.
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The unbearable hardship of $55k/yr pre-tax income. 😉
 
Of course, what's lost in this whole discussion is that every career and profession has taken a hit since the turn of the millenium...

I guess we should just all go and start the next Facebook and become gazillionaires.
 
Rik1111 said:
I asked my lady, and she said living on Ramen at 32 is not an option. 😛
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Ouch. As non-trad who won't be done until almost 40(should I choose to follow what I'm currently interested in) I essentially asked the same thing and she was fine with it. But she was also accepting of me proposing to her with a ring lodged in a fake turd, so maybe I just got lucky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
WillburCobb said:
Ouch. As non-trad who won't be done until almost 40(should I choose to follow what I'm currently interested in) I essentially asked the same thing and she was fine with it. But she was also accepting of me proposing to her with a ring lodged in a fake turd, so maybe I just got lucky.
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*Note to myself* Ahhhhhh... So this is the secret formula to get someone to marry you. :whistle:
 
Well it worked for me. But the future Mrs. WillburCobb also has a disturbing fascination with Goatse, so something tells me this might not be appreciated by all women.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
listener23 said:
I just don't understand how people who make 200k+ a year cant pay back 300k student loans within 10years. Why cant people hold off on buying a Porsche until there out of debt.
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Probably because it's not from buying Porsches.
 
Psai said:
Probably because it's not from buying Porsches.
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You're right. It's from knocking up their stay-at-home wife a few times then justifying $20k/yr on daycare or an au pair and a $750k house in an expensive neighborhood so the "kids are safe and have room to play," on top of taking multiple $5-10k vacations, eating out several times a night, dropping $1500/mo on a new 5 series for yourself and another $1000/mo on a new 3 series for your wife, etc. The list of stupid **** that physicians do with their money is endless.
 
circulus vitios said:
You're right. It's from knocking up their stay-at-home wife a few times then justifying $20k/yr on daycare or an au pair and a $750k house in an expensive neighborhood so the "kids are safe and have room to play," on top of taking multiple $5-10k vacations, eating out several times a night, dropping $1500/mo on a new 5 series for yourself and another $1000/mo on a new 3 series for your wife, etc. The list of stupid **** that physicians do with their money is endless.
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$1000/mo for a 3 series?!!!!!!
 
appleanesthesia said:
I am an anesthesiologist 1 year out of residency. I'm a DO, not MD - but I did do an MD anesthesiology residency.

First, let me say that being a DO has not made one iota of a difference in salary, respect, or patient care despite what many pre-meds think. I was worried when I chose to go DO, but I have yet to have a patient say "what's a DO?, etc." None of my colleagues, surgeons, nurses, patients give two sh*ts about the letters behind my name. So, if you are (fooslishly) thinking about medicine, definitely consider DO skool as well as MD skool.

Second, get out while you can! Medicine is fundamentally changing and until the gov't pays for your entire medical training like in Europe, etc., finishing medicine and residency 8 years from now will leave you with big debt and little income - something like an upside-down mortgage. You guys have no idea what you're getting into and just hope for the best because you are admirably very idealistic - I was too I admit. But I rationalized it out and stuck with it. This time however - it really is different.

After "Medicare for all" passes, I expect my salary will go down 40-70% i.e. about $80k. Our anesthesia group with 50+ docs have already crunched the numbers with our billing dept. Fortunately I don't have any skool loans, but I know of other recent grads like me with $3000 / mo loan payments! Ouch! Medicare rates simply aren't enough to cover rent, electricity, employees, etc without working even more than doctors already do.

And you have no idea how crappy it is to get paged at 4AM after you've just laid down your head at midnight after working 17 hours with a couple of breaks here/there. When this page occurs your heart races, you wake up disoriented, and you have to force open your burning eyes. Sometimes, you still have to keep on working starting again at 7AM the next day until 12-3PM! At this point, you start forgetting things - stethocope, pens, maybe even mislabeling drugs (hopefully you catch that one though). Can you imagine how busy we'll be when we have even more patients since after health reform passes, everyone will have insurance that pays next to nothing!

Many of my colleagues, especially the older ones, already have firm plans in place to stop practicing once this health care reform passes. You should too. You are actually really lucky people in that you haven't yet sacrificed your 20's-30's studying/on call/going into debt for an honorable profession that is financially non-sensical.

It's not too late to turn back now, and I'm not disgruntled - just saying it as I see it - and I'm right smack in the middle of it. I come from a long family line of physicians - and I'll be the first to tell my son to really reconsider medicine if he wants to do it.

Good luck.
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You know, usually I am not a grammar Nazi, but the fact that you spell school as "skool" really DOES cement the fact that there IS, in fact, a difference between MD and DO schools.
 
crimsonkid85 said:
You know, usually I am not a grammar Nazi, but the fact that you spell school as "skool" really DOES cement the fact that there IS, in fact, a difference between MD and DO schools.
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Wow what a great observation you made there!
 
LuciusVorenus said:
Oh I thought we were talking about leases. I don't know much about BMWs but I know you can lease an E class for like 500/mo.
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Why would I pay someone $500/month to borrow a car (that I still need to insure, maintain, and fuel)? That's $8k/year in pre-tax income to borrow a car.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
Why would I pay someone $500/month to borrow a car (that I still need to insure, maintain, and fuel)? That's $8k/year in pre-tax income to borrow a car.
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Most people I know who lease cars do it for one reason. They're willing to pay 300-500/mo to make sure they always have the newest model. I know Mercedes usually comes out with a new model every 24-36 months which is how long their lease periods are. I leased a car because I had no idea where I was going when the lease expired. I didn't want to buy a car halfsies with my sister and then end up on the other side of the country where I might not even need a car. Also maintenance was free! Woo!
 
circulus vitios said:
You're right. It's from knocking up their stay-at-home wife a few times then justifying $20k/yr on daycare or an au pair and a $750k house in an expensive neighborhood so the "kids are safe and have room to play," on top of taking multiple $5-10k vacations, eating out several times a night, dropping $1500/mo on a new 5 series for yourself and another $1000/mo on a new 3 series for your wife, etc. The list of stupid **** that physicians do with their money is endless.
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If she's a stay at home wife, why would the physician need day care?
 
chenzt said:
Personal experience? Story time? 🙂
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Mr. Tp makes good money as an engineer and will be supporting me financially during med school. In return I will buy him a car after residency. Basically, having a partner with a career is pretty optimal. Also he cooks.
 
touchpause13 said:
Mr. Tp makes good money as an engineer and will be supporting me financially during med school. In return I will buy him a car after residency. Basically, having a partner with a career is pretty optimal. Also he cooks.
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Having a partner/spouse's financial support (let alone support in General) is insanely awesome, and I'm super lucky to be going into this with that. However I'm still the one stuck cooking, but no real complaints with that.


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Rik1111 said:
I think you'll find that most specialties start around $200k. http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey

And I do not think you're approaching the income realistically. Your sweeping sums are guesses, and they are far from reality. I encourage you to check out http://whitecoatinvestor.com/

There is a reason the pros on that site factor in your loan payment for quite a while after exiting residency.
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Keep in mind, most of the people who filled out this survey "started working" in the 90's.
 
listener23 said:
I just don't understand how people who make 200k+ a year cant pay back 300k student loans within 10years. Why cant people hold off on buying a Porsche until there out of debt.
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At the very least you'll be 30 when you start making any real money and then you have to pay for

1. loans
2. children
3. House (which costs more than a porsche)

It's probably not too fun to be 40 and still paying out rent for a crappy apartment.
 
TreadLightly said:
At the very least you'll be 30 when you start making any real money and then you have to pay for

1. loans
2. children
3. House (which costs more than a porsche)

It's probably not too fun to be 40 and still paying out rent for a crappy apartment.
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Don't forget you are in like the 35-45%tax bracket
 
Old_Mil said:
Good Morning. I found this thread and am going to bump it and add some more information. The original poster is spot on - if you go to medical school in this environment you are committing career suicide. I want you to have some sense of what you are going to be competing against: DMPs making 80-90k a year. Think you are going to pay off that 200k-300k student loan at 7% in this lifetime at that wage?

http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/health/how-immigrants-doctor-the-nursing-corps-20140220

In addition to this the DMP degree is going to give FMGs without domestic residency training access to physician jobs.

'The first class of nurse practitioners graduated last summer, and of 55 graduates returned to FIU to enroll in a doctorate program. "We're looking now at making the program a BSN to DMP program, because we have so many that are interested," Olenick says of the doctoral program. "The way that nursing is moving, eventually a DMP will be required to practice as a nurse practitioner."'

I usually spend my time on my specialty forum (ER) but someone needs to warn you all before you throw yourself off this cliff.
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Couple concerns:
1) The article is about DNP. The one with an N, not an M. (which you used twice. and then a third time by misquoting the article)
With that you've also missed the plethora of recent threads regarding PA and D/NPs "overtaking" the Primary Care field (you know, that field where we really need more caregivers...especially minorities who speak the language). It will hit other fields as well, but primary care will likely see the biggest influx of non-physician caregivers, especially with the expected influx of primary care patients with the ACA. Essentially the arguement boils down to phsycians working side-by-side with several PAs/DNPs in such fields, or at worst: 1 physician overlooking several PAs/DNPs because law currently requires their cases be reviewed by a practicing doctor on a regular basis. Or whatever permutation of speculative interdisciplinary medical team you want to anticipate for the future. I believe this is the "threat" you're alluding to and it has been discussed and again and again and probably several more times in the pre-allo section.

2) I am in fact certain that I'm going to pay off my loans in this lifetime, and save enough to last at least another.
Frankly I was too lazy to link the over 20 threads in the last 5 pages of pre-allo that address "financial aid", "family income of...", and "how to afford medical school." While many of these threads resolve the issue promptly and repeatedly, this thread reaches some good conclusion regarding federal assistance as well as my post about paying off your debt independently. In this thread alone we've alreadu reached the conclusion that most doctors are terrible with money and those who are good with money aren't worried about debt.

3) I think the first 4 pages adequately vilipend the OP. I fail to see how an article citing 2009 IMG data and explicating an FMG-to-DNP program established in 2010 should serve as any "additional" caution. IMHO you would have been much better off citing NRMP directly to show an increase of 7% in FMG match rates to residencies since last year (source). Needless to say, the data isn't particularly compelling either way considering most of us are at the pre-med bottleneck of 44% acceptance rate to medical school.

Edit: Editted to reflect correct dates from article.
 
moisne said:
Don't forget you are in like the 35-45%tax bracket
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Realize a significant portion of your income is taxed at 0, 10, 15, 25 and 28% before hitting the highest bracket. Married and together making 425k (physician spouse) would result in an effective tax rate of 25.8%. Married and together making 245k (stay at home or low earning spouse) your effective tax rate is 20.6%. This is before any credits are taken into consideration.
 
Last edited:
Well if you hit that 425k it would be most advantageous to file separately.
 
touchpause13 said:
Well if you hit that 425k it would be most advantageous to file separately.
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How so? Haven't really needed to figure out the nitty gritty around that income area. I assume it's related to AMT?
 
Once you get up into that income level and both partners are making a good income you are dealing with the marriage penalty. In which you pay significantly more in taxes filing jointly than you would separately. I don't have my tax calculator on hand but it can be tens of thousands of dollars you lose in taxes filing jointly
 
Married filing separate tax brackets are exactly half of jointly amount. But yep, single definitely do get a huge benefit though. Never marrying!
 
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