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stopped reading after skool
Not everyone is working for the money though..
everyone works for money. you want to be able to send your kids to college? you want a house, a new car? yes, these are all "luxuries" that we can all do without. we should all default to living in RV's and foraging for wild mushrooms.
Not everyone is working for the money though..
i know it's not, but if you factor in the amount of hours, you could probably do overtime as a police officer and make a comparable amount. so physician's salaries are not on an even playing field as other professions because they are overworked, usually (excluding Rads, anest, derm).
please don't take offense, i merely just wanted to point that out. i'm not trying to get into an argument and didn't really read the thread because it seems there is a lot of internets drama.
It is so nice to hear this. The idealism on SDN is unbelievable. I would like to see what everyone has to say when they have $200,000 in debt and working 80 hours a week. Then come back nd tell me that you don't work for money.
EVERYONE works for money.....money is what makes our world go round and just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you arn't allowed to be compensated VERY well. How dare we work so hard and want to make a good living!! We are so terrible for wanting to have nice cars, a house, and the ability to send our kids to college so they do not incur any debt!
I am an anesthesiologist 1 year out of residency. I'm a DO, not MD - but I did do an MD anesthesiology residency.
First, let me say that being a DO has not made one iota of a difference in salary, respect, or patient care despite what many pre-meds think. I was worried when I chose to go DO, but I have yet to have a patient say "what's a DO?, etc." None of my colleagues, surgeons, nurses, patients give two sh*ts about the letters behind my name. So, if you are (fooslishly) thinking about medicine, definitely consider DO skool as well as MD skool.
Second, get out while you can! Medicine is fundamentally changing and until the gov't pays for your entire medical training like in Europe, etc., finishing medicine and residency 8 years from now will leave you with big debt and little income - something like an upside-down mortgage. You guys have no idea what you're getting into and just hope for the best because you are admirably very idealistic - I was too I admit. But I rationalized it out and stuck with it. This time however - it really is different.
After "Medicare for all" passes, I expect my salary will go down 40-70% i.e. about $80k. Our anesthesia group with 50+ docs have already crunched the numbers with our billing dept. Fortunately I don't have any skool loans, but I know of other recent grads like me with $3000 / mo loan payments! Ouch! Medicare rates simply aren't enough to cover rent, electricity, employees, etc without working even more than doctors already do.
And you have no idea how crappy it is to get paged at 4AM after you've just laid down your head at midnight after working 17 hours with a couple of breaks here/there. When this page occurs your heart races, you wake up disoriented, and you have to force open your burning eyes. Sometimes, you still have to keep on working starting again at 7AM the next day until 12-3PM! At this point, you start forgetting things - stethocope, pens, maybe even mislabeling drugs (hopefully you catch that one though). Can you imagine how busy we'll be when we have even more patients since after health reform passes, everyone will have insurance that pays next to nothing!
Many of my colleagues, especially the older ones, already have firm plans in place to stop practicing once this health care reform passes. You should too. You are actually really lucky people in that you haven't yet sacrificed your 20's-30's studying/on call/going into debt for an honorable profession that is financially non-sensical.
It's not too late to turn back now, and I'm not disgruntled - just saying it as I see it - and I'm right smack in the middle of it. I come from a long family line of physicians - and I'll be the first to tell my son to really reconsider medicine if he wants to do it.
Good luck.
stopped reading after skool
Canada, Australia, and the UK all have national health care and their doctors call make nice incomes. So you are a troll and should just shut up.
Thank you. That what I was about to say.
Everyone here needs to read Health Care reform bill. Don't trust anyone Just READ Heath Care reform bill.
My point is very straight forward. Just Read Health Care reform bill. It's design in two year time frame government will run health care. We need health care reform but not this one.
Yeah I agree.
Let's focus on how medicine is actually practiced and establishing medical courts where malpractice suits are actually under the review of peers.
Is that not how it works in Texas? I thought it was. Maybe not.
That's how it works in California.
From your perspective any objection I give you is going to give you the impression that you might as well be talking to a brick wall. I am going to be the person I am going to be regardless of what kind of punches the environment throws at me because I am not going to give a f*ck. Everyone's perception of money is going to be changing soon. You, OP, entered med school when the world's concept of money was stable. Now that concept is less stable and everyone of us premeds is learning how to live with the notion of a changing concept of money prior to entering med school. We know that we all will experience a financial toss-up in this career. We know that there is no such thing as "stability" as there was in the "glory years" when prestige and money ruled. The world always finds a way to cope. In an absolute worst case scenario, I will die, but until I die I am going to be satisfied with everything about being a doctor.I am an anesthesiologist 1 year out of residency. I'm a DO, not MD - but I did do an MD anesthesiology residency.
First, let me say that being a DO has not made one iota of a difference in salary, respect, or patient care despite what many pre-meds think. I was worried when I chose to go DO, but I have yet to have a patient say "what's a DO?, etc." None of my colleagues, surgeons, nurses, patients give two sh*ts about the letters behind my name. So, if you are (fooslishly) thinking about medicine, definitely consider DO skool as well as MD skool.
Second, get out while you can! Medicine is fundamentally changing and until the gov't pays for your entire medical training like in Europe, etc., finishing medicine and residency 8 years from now will leave you with big debt and little income - something like an upside-down mortgage. You guys have no idea what you're getting into and just hope for the best because you are admirably very idealistic - I was too I admit. But I rationalized it out and stuck with it. This time however - it really is different.
After "Medicare for all" passes, I expect my salary will go down 40-70% i.e. about $80k. Our anesthesia group with 50+ docs have already crunched the numbers with our billing dept. Fortunately I don't have any skool loans, but I know of other recent grads like me with $3000 / mo loan payments! Ouch! Medicare rates simply aren't enough to cover rent, electricity, employees, etc without working even more than doctors already do.
And you have no idea how crappy it is to get paged at 4AM after you've just laid down your head at midnight after working 17 hours with a couple of breaks here/there. When this page occurs your heart races, you wake up disoriented, and you have to force open your burning eyes. Sometimes, you still have to keep on working starting again at 7AM the next day until 12-3PM! At this point, you start forgetting things - stethocope, pens, maybe even mislabeling drugs (hopefully you catch that one though). Can you imagine how busy we'll be when we have even more patients since after health reform passes, everyone will have insurance that pays next to nothing!
Many of my colleagues, especially the older ones, already have firm plans in place to stop practicing once this health care reform passes. You should too. You are actually really lucky people in that you haven't yet sacrificed your 20's-30's studying/on call/going into debt for an honorable profession that is financially non-sensical.
It's not too late to turn back now, and I'm not disgruntled - just saying it as I see it - and I'm right smack in the middle of it. I come from a long family line of physicians - and I'll be the first to tell my son to really reconsider medicine if he wants to do it.
Good luck.
From your perspective any objection I give you is going to give you the impression that you might as well be talking to a brick wall. I am going to be the person I am going to be regardless of what kind of punches the environment throws at me because I am not going to give a f*ck. Everyone's perception of money is going to be changing soon. You, OP, entered med school when the world's concept of money was stable. Now that concept is less stable and everyone of us premeds is learning how to live with the notion of a changing concept of money prior to entering med school. We know that we all will experience a financial toss-up in this career. We know that there is no such thing as "stability" as there was in the "glory years" when prestige and money ruled. The world always finds a way to cope. In an absolute worst case scenario, I will die, but until I die I am going to be satisfied with everything about being a doctor.
Good Morning. I found this thread and am going to bump it and add some more information. The original poster is spot on - if you go to medical school in this environment you are committing career suicide. I want you to have some sense of what you are going to be competing against: DMPs (Doctors of Medical Practice - renamed DNPs) making 80-90k a year. Think you are going to pay off that 200k-300k student loan at 7% in this lifetime at that wage?
http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/health/how-immigrants-doctor-the-nursing-corps-20140220
In addition to this the DMP degree is going to give FMGs without domestic residency training access to physician jobs.
'The first class of nurse practitioners graduated last summer, and of 55 graduates returned to FIU to enroll in a doctorate program. "We're looking now at making the program a BSN to DMP program, because we have so many that are interested," Olenick says of the doctoral program. "The way that nursing is moving, eventually a DMP will be required to practice as a nurse practitioner."'
I usually spend my time on my specialty forum (ER) but someone needs to warn you all before you throw yourself off this cliff.
Good Morning. I found this thread and am going to bump it and add some more information. The original poster is spot on - if you go to medical school in this environment you are committing career suicide. I want you to have some sense of what you are going to be competing against: DMPs making 80-90k a year. Think you are going to pay off that 200k-300k student loan at 7% in this lifetime at that wage?
http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/health/how-immigrants-doctor-the-nursing-corps-20140220
In addition to this the DMP degree is going to give FMGs without domestic residency training access to physician jobs.
'The first class of nurse practitioners graduated last summer, and of 55 graduates returned to FIU to enroll in a doctorate program. "We're looking now at making the program a BSN to DMP program, because we have so many that are interested," Olenick says of the doctoral program. "The way that nursing is moving, eventually a DMP will be required to practice as a nurse practitioner."'
I usually spend my time on my specialty forum (ER) but someone needs to warn you all before you throw yourself off this cliff.
So basically what you're saying is that you prefer to just hear one side of the argument, and don't want to hear any thoughts that are not in line with what you consider to be ideal? Are you like that in all aspects of your life, or only the ones that are the most important and will have the greatest impact on your future? I would think that given that this person clearly has experience working as a physician, they have a legitimate opinion and should be able to share it with those of us that prefer to hear all sides of an argument. So please, leave it alone for those of us that actually care to broaden our perspectives.Nah, man. You're what's wrong with medicine. Stop projecting your insecurities and unhappiness on to us. Every doctor I work with still loves it because they got into it for the right reasons. Career suicide? Would you just prefer that the MD profession dies out with your generation and no one go into medicine anymore? This is what's wrong with SDN. It's a cesspool of negativity where members that are higher up the totem pole come to try and jade pre-meds before they even experience anything for themselves. Did you honestly think you'd convince anyone here to just drop their life goal? Or were you just fear mongering based on some speculation with no way to verify. My guess is the latter, and damn, I'm probably gonna get chewed out by you for saying all this, but just focus on making yourself happy if you're so worried about your future and leave us out of it.
He didn't say that at all. It's one thing to get different perspectives, it's another to get one that's presented in a manner that spells out doom for anyone that pursues medicine.So basically what you're saying is that you prefer to just hear one side of the argument, and don't want to hear any thoughts that are not in line with what you consider to be ideal? Are you like that in all aspects of your life, or only the ones that are the most important and will have the greatest impact on your future? I would think that given that this person clearly has experience working as a physician, they have a legitimate opinion and should be able to share it with those of us that prefer to hear all sides of an argument. So please, leave it alone for those of us that actually care to broaden our perspectives.
Which in itself is a perspective. Think about it, you have to be extremely miserable to have that view. Our perception is our reality, and so clearly this person's reality sucks and that's how they view it. Anyone with half a brain will know that this person's opinion isn't sweeping and true and the person reading it is not going to immediately change their whole life goal without a second thought or opinion, but by hearing it we are offered insight into how much this person seems to regret their decision. They probably wished someone who was dissatisfied told them about their experience to make them consider the possibility that medicine really might not be the career for them and to carefully consider the alternatives. In my opinion, it's worth hearing and thinking about.He didn't say that at all. It's one thing to get different perspectives, it's another to get one that's presented in a manner that spells out doom for anyone that pursues medicine.
He didn't say that at all. It's one thing to get different perspectives, it's another to get one that's presented in a manner that spells out doom for anyone that pursues medicine.
Because they're ****ing idiots. I'm planning on paying off my $70k/yr COA med school loans in just a few years.I work in the ER as a scribe, and I can report that 60%+ of the physicians I work with share @Old_Mil 's point of view. I don't know if that's exclusive to EM, but I would doubt it.
New docs we get out of residency report to me that they will be unable to pay off their loans in the lifespan of their career. I am not dissuaded by this, and I don't think others should be necessarily, but trying to argue that this isn't the case is just naive.
There also is not a doc who has been working with us for more than 5 years who has not been taken to court for something or other. It's the nature of the beast. Again, I don't think that it's an abandon ship type of fact, but it is a fact. @Old_Mil is not incorrect.
New docs we get out of residency report to me that they will be unable to pay off their loans in the lifespan of their career...but trying to argue that this isn't the case is just naive.
There also is not a doc who has been working with us for more than 5 years who has not been taken to court for something or other. It's the nature of the beast.
Because they're ******* idiots. I'm planning on paying off my $70k/yr COA med school loans in just a few years.
If you secure house loans out of residency at lower rates than your student loans, the math can work out that it is financially beneficial to pay your house off before your student loans.
I hope you pay all that off as you plan. 🙂
Or don't buy a house and continue to live modestly and rent for a couple years after residency. I used to work with a psychiatrist who did this and manged to wipe out $300-350k in student debt in about 2-2.5 years and still put some way for savings/investing.
The majority of medical school matriculants come from the fourth and fifth quintile of income according to the AAMC. I feel like most medical school graduates think they won't be able to pay off their loans in a timely manner because they are pursuing the standard of living they are accustomed to, which is that of their parents who are member of the upper incomes levels in this country.
It's harder with a $200k/yr salary. Assuming one is single; does not live in a ridiculously tax-heavy state like California or New York; and continues living like a resident; that's about $125k/yr post-tax earnings, minus $40k/yr post-tax living expenses which leaves about $85k/yr toward student loan payments. Of course if you match into primary care specialties -- basically the only specialties that pay $200k/yr -- you could look into working for a hospital or group that offers student loan repayment incentives.If you can do that, I think that sounds smart.
There was a thread not long ago on why you can rarely tackle 300k of debt in a couple of years even with a ~200k salary. I'm at work and am not motivated to find it, but I think that would be a relevant link here.
I shadowed a physician who said this was his one regret about entering medicine but admitted it was 100% his fault for being irresponsible. He kept emphasizing to me the importance of finding a financial advisor as soon as you begin residency so that you can hit the ground running on the right path as soon as you start making money (no matter how little it may seem for your work load).
It's harder with a $200k/yr salary. Assuming one is single; does not live in a ridiculously tax-heavy state like California or New York; and continues living like a resident; that's about $125k/yr post-tax earnings, minus $40k/yr post-tax living expenses which leaves about $85k/yr toward student loan payments. Of course if you match into primary care specialties -- basically the only specialties that pay $200k/yr -- you could look into working for a hospital or group that offers student loan repayment incentives.
Isn't that a tamil song.....honestly....URVASI URVASI...TAKE IT EASY POLICY....thats the way to go...and that just had no contribution to this thread
I shadowed a physician who said this was his one regret about entering medicine but admitted it was 100% his fault for being irresponsible. He kept emphasizing to me the importance of finding a financial advisor as soon as you begin residency so that you can hit the ground running on the right path as soon as you start making money (no matter how little it may seem for your work load).
AAMC pulls data from MGMA, so I think I'll trust MGMA over whatever the hell company that is.I think you'll find that most specialties start around $200k. http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey
And I do not think you're approaching the income realistically. Your sweeping sums are guesses, and they are far from reality. I encourage you to check out http://whitecoatinvestor.com/
There is a reason the pros on that site factor in your loan payment for quite a while after exiting residency.
I was told this exact same thing as well.