Getting a letter of recommendation from a physician

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Lullapalooza

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Hi folks, I just have a question regarding obtaining a letter of rec from a physician. I'm sure there are others in the same boat or who have had experiences and can share their wisdom.

I'm part of a volunteer program at my local hospital, where I volunteer in different departments every three months. So far I've volunteered in the cardiac care unit (a nursing floor), right now I'm in the ER and starting in August I'll be in the ICU.

My premed advisor says I should try building a relationship with one of the doctors and try to get a letter of rec. But personally, I just feel extremely intimidated by these people in their white coats. To be honest, I spend my Friday nights in the ER cleaning beds, getting stuff for patients, helping out wherever I can. But I feel like a ghost walking through the hallways of the ER. Sometimes I wish someone would say, "Wow, this kid is spending his Friday nights working here while everyone else is out having a good time. Props to him!" Haven't these guys been in the same situation?

I understand that doctors are extremely busy, and I understand that they aren't trying to ignore me, its just they are preoccupied with more important things. I probably shouldn't expect so much sympathy, but its just hard to think about how all of my friends are out having a great time on the weekends, and I am spending my time in a hospital trying to help out wherever I can and going unnoticed in the process. That being said, I still wouldn't change how I spend my weekends, because I've gotten so much gratification and seen some really cool stuff. Anyways, I understand that physicians need to focus on providing the best care for their patients above giving some kid a pat on the back for helping out.

Given these circumstances, I feel like its very difficult to actually build a relationship with a doctor. I think it would be very difficult for a doctor to actually get to know me given how busy he is, and quite frankly, I don't see why any doctor would have the interest or incentive to help someone like me out.

Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic, as I know people who have gotten letters of recommendation from doctors in local hospitals. It just seems like breaking the ice is really hard. And the only thing a doctor has ever said to me is, "Wow, it smells real nice in here. Good job" when I was cleaning a room and he came in because he forgot his clipboard. I guess I feel really small around these guys. I know we all start somewhere, and for most people like myself, that's at the bottom.

I really want a letter of recommendation from a doctor. But even if I had the balls to go straight up and ask a doctor for a letter of rec, I would want a good letter of recommendation from a doctor who actually knows me and can vouch for my dedication, hard work, integrity, and my potential to be a good physician someday. How would you guys recommend building that kind of relationship with a doctor?

Secondly, I want to build a relationship with a doctor for the sake of building a relationship and getting a taste of what its like, not just for a letter of rec. (I'd be lying if I said I was doing it all for the "getting to know" aspect of the individual, as oppose to the letter of rec. But I do, without a doubt want to get a feel for what these doctors go through on a daily basis).

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Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic, as I know people who have gotten letters of recommendation from doctors in local hospitals. It just seems like breaking the ice is really hard. And the only thing a doctor has ever said to me is, "Wow, it smells real nice in here. Good job" when I was cleaning a room and he came in because he forgot his clipboard. I guess I feel really small around these guys. I know we all start somewhere, and for most people like myself, that's at the bottom.

I really want a letter of recommendation from a doctor. But even if I had the balls to go straight up and ask a doctor for a letter of rec, I would want a good letter of recommendation from a doctor who actually knows me and can vouch for my dedication, hard work, integrity, and my potential to be a good physician someday. How would you guys recommend building that kind of relationship with a doctor?

Secondly, I want to build a relationship with a doctor for the sake of building a relationship and getting a taste of what its like, not just for a letter of rec. (I'd be lying if I said I was doing it all for the "getting to know" aspect of the individual, as oppose to the letter of rec. But I do, without a doubt want to get a feel for what these doctors go through on a daily basis).

I'd just say get past the idea you need to meet doctors particularly for a LOR. It's great if you get one but I wouldn't "gun" for it. Just work on developing meaningful relationships. Explain to a few doctors that you're an aspiring doctor volunteering and I'm sure a few will take the time to talk to you about stuff.

It's quite unlikely a doctor is qualified to judge your potential as a good doctor from your ability to clean ER beds but whatever, start small. Be earnest. Not kiss-assy or fake. If you come across as a decent person, I'm sure most would take some time to help you out in some way. A badass LOR is just too far down the road at this point though.
 
I was very much the same way. I only really interacted for the nurses for a year. But then I asked a doctor, that the nurses told me was really nice. I came to realize that doctors are normal people just like you. So don't try to see them as doctors necessarily, see them as people just like you, and just ask. I know it sounds easier that it is, but just try to keep that in mind. The doctor that wrote my LOR is now one of my good friends. She left our hospital, and we still talk to each other. Good luck!
 
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I know exactly what you mean about working your butt off and it seems like no one notices. Honestly, a lot of us are in the same situation. I asked my brother for the same advice you are asking us and he told me (kinda harsh but so true) that doctors are not there to baby you or tell you what a good job you are doing, they are there to do their job and serve their patients. You are going to work your ass off without a reward. Except you getting into medical school, and that should be enough of a reward for you to get you though the long nights of changing beds and chatting with patients.

On the other hand, for your situation I would tackle it like this: I would look up the ER doc's or Trauma surgeons at the hospital you are at. Than you should call them and ask to shadow them. If you call 20 people, at least one or two are bound to say yes. So you will shadow them once or twice and from then on every time they see you volunteering in the ER you can chat with them and build that relationship. It's good that you are going to the ICU after this "rotation" thing you are doing because most ER docs/ Trauma surgeons take turns being in the ER, ICU etc. so it is very likely you will see them again. And it's scary and awkward to just go out and ask these people to shadow them but TRUST ME IT IS WORTH EVERY SECOND. And honestly, I think if you go this way you will have no problem getting a letter from them.
 
I love this thread...because I am in a similar situation and doctors are VERY intimidating with their BIG EGOS...but don't worry, you gotta speak up and eventually you will become the intimidating one with an ego...haha the circle of life
 
I know exactly what you mean about working your butt off and it seems like no one notices. Honestly, a lot of us are in the same situation. I asked my brother for the same advice you are asking us and he told me (kinda harsh but so true) that doctors are not there to baby you or tell you what a good job you are doing, they are there to do their job and serve their patients. You are going to work your ass off without a reward. Except you getting into medical school, and that should be enough of a reward for you to get you though the long nights of changing beds and chatting with patients.

On the other hand, for your situation I would tackle it like this: I would look up the ER doc's or Trauma surgeons at the hospital you are at. Than you should call them and ask to shadow them. If you call 20 people, at least one or two are bound to say yes. So you will shadow them once or twice and from then on every time they see you volunteering in the ER you can chat with them and build that relationship. It's good that you are going to the ICU after this "rotation" thing you are doing because most ER docs/ Trauma surgeons take turns being in the ER, ICU etc. so it is very likely you will see them again. And it's scary and awkward to just go out and ask these people to shadow them but TRUST ME IT IS WORTH EVERY SECOND. And honestly, I think if you go this way you will have no problem getting a letter from them.

Good advice here. The fallacy is thinking that you need to impress them with your stellar bed changing. As mentioned they are there to work and don't give a damn why you are there. However, if you politely explain to one of them your situation and ask if you could make an appointment to speak with them most will be more than happy to spend some time(when their not dealing with patients) to talk about applying to medical school and being a doctor, go on to ask if you could shadow them for a shift or two. Especially if your in an academic hospital many physicians think of it as part of their job to help out students regardless of their station.
 
I love this thread...because I am in a similar situation and doctors are VERY intimidating with their BIG EGOS...but don't worry, you gotta speak up and eventually you will become the intimidating one with an ego...haha the circle of life

hahaha the worst are the chief residents. the attendings. esp. in surgery. talk about intimidation
 
Sad but true...many schools don't even care if you have a letter from a doctor. This is once again where the college pre-med advisors are disconnected from the reality of med admissions.

I've read dozens of LORs from docs. Most are not worth the paper they're printed on with regard to offering valuable information about the candidate.

Far more important are letters from teachers and laboratory investigators with whom you have studied/worked. I'd rather see a letter from a varsity coach than a physician. The only thing worse than a letter from a physician is a letter from the volunteer coordinator at the hosptial. Those letters usually say, "This letter is to certify that Joey Premed provided 200 hours of volunteer service at St. Elsewhere Medical Center. " If they knock themselves out they'll tell you the start & end dates and which unit was so lucky as to have Joey there.
 
Sad but true...many schools don't even care if you have a letter from a doctor. This is once again where the college pre-med advisors are disconnected from the reality of med admissions.

I've read dozens of LORs from docs. Most are not worth the paper they're printed on with regard to offering valuable information about the candidate.

Far more important are letters from teachers and laboratory investigators with whom you have studied/worked. I'd rather see a letter from a varsity coach than a physician. The only thing worse than a letter from a physician is a letter from the volunteer coordinator at the hosptial. Those letters usually say, "This letter is to certify that Joey Premed provided 200 hours of volunteer service at St. Elsewhere Medical Center. " If they knock themselves out they'll tell you the start & end dates and which unit was so lucky as to have Joey there.

Are there instances in which a letter from a physician did help? Is this something worth pursuing?
 
When the physician is the applicant's employer (but not if employed as a babysitter for the doc's kids) or an investigator with whom the applicant is collaborating.

so an LOR from a physician you do research with would be helpful, but an LOR from a physician you have shadowed for 3 years wouldn't? Or is this more of a "it couldn't hurt to have both" situation?
 
so an LOR from a physician you do research with would be helpful, but an LOR from a physician you have shadowed for 3 years wouldn't? Or is this more of a "it couldn't hurt to have both" situation?


The docs who have been shadowed rarely write anything that provides valuable information for the committee except in the very rare instance that they write something negative.
 
The docs who have been shadowed rarely write anything that provides valuable information for the committee except in the very rare instance that they write something negative.

hm. well that is unfortunate. thanks for the info
 
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I know how you feel. I'm a scribe in the ER and I still don't have the balls to make conversation with the drs. I am fine with the nurses and have learned SO MUCH from the RNs but I never ask the drs because I'm scared/intimidated. Really stupid, I know. :(
I hope it gets better!
 
The docs who have been shadowed rarely write anything that provides valuable information for the committee except in the very rare instance that they write something negative.


What if the physician writing a LOR is someone who you have known since middle school because you played hockey with his son? Not only is he a family friend, but I have shadowed him numerous times. I have met with him on several occasions outside of the hospital, so he knows me very well. I think his letter will be very valuable in my application. He is also an Assistant Clinical Professor for the state school I am applying to via EDP. I can't see how the adcom would see this as anything but positive?
 
true story: last Friday I was volunteering in ER: I had great conversations with the nurses and PA's...and then the attending physician was a Columbia grad...and he was sooo full of it...I asked him for mcat advice: he told me you got to study a lot in a rude way and he was like rude and ignoring me the rest of the time...I don't know his problem he was in my situation 10 years ago...what an egotistical brat
 
What if the physician writing a LOR is someone who you have known since middle school because you played hockey with his son? Not only is he a family friend, but I have shadowed him numerous times. I have met with him on several occasions outside of the hospital, so he knows me very well. I think his letter will be very valuable in my application. He is also an Assistant Clinical Professor for the state school I am applying to via EDP. I can't see how the adcom would see this as anything but positive?

This doc will open the letter saying, "I am writing on behalf of the application of Cudoc who I have known since he was a twelve year old hockey player with my son." :rolleyes: Right there we toss the letter as lacking objectivity. Friends of the family, parents of your pals: good for shadowing but worthless for LORs.
 
This doc will open the letter saying, "I am writing on behalf of the application of Cudoc who I have known since he was a twelve year old hockey player with my son." :rolleyes: Right there we toss the letter as lacking objectivity. Friends of the family, parents of your pals: good for shadowing but worthless for LORs.

well let's just hope he didn't mention how or for how long he has known me then. I didn't think of that. Oh well.
 
LizzyM, what types of comments from a shadower would constitute "useful information?" In what way are physician shadower LOR's redundant and therefore "unuseful?" in other words, yes, they are not useful. but why?

To the OP... the saying goes, "good things come to those who ask" ... and that includes getting to know someone, including doctors. they are humans too. you have to talk to them to get to know them... is this really such a hard thing? don't moan about not knowing someone when you haven't really tried? why would you stand out by working on friday nights if any other intern can do that too? you'll blend into the crowd if you sleep in fear. you stand out by making contact and showing people who YOU are. you do that by talking. early bird gets the worm. but the bird has to wake up and get off their butt to do so...

also, premed was YOUR choice. you are making a choice to sacrifice to gain something great in the end. you decided it was worth pursuing the minute you chose to be premed. so why are you feeling sorry for yourself? i may work hard, non stop, like a slave. in the end, i know why i'm doing it and i think it's valuable, therefore i never pity myself. i have chosen something good. it happens to be different from all those around me, but it is good. never live in your emotions. live in determined reality.

:thumbup:
 
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LizzyM, what types of comments from a shadower would constitute "useful information?" In what way are physician shadower LOR's redundant and therefore "unuseful?" in other words, yes, they are not useful. but why?

The typical letter will tell you what the doctor has observed. Most of the letters provide information which is positive but the sort of thing we take for granted: well groomed, neatly dressed, alert, bright, energentic, respectful, curious. Were we expecting anyone to be described as dirty, sloppy, sleepy, stupid, disrespectful and bored?

Unlike faculty or coaches, a doc being shadowed doesn't have an opportunity to see the applicant interact with peers, to take responsibility for assignments, work under pressure, deal with disappointments or frustrations. These are the sorts of things that we can't observe during interviews and that faculty members write about based on their observations.
 
Lots of great advice in this thread!

I agree with much of what was said, in terms of doctors not being there to baby a volunteer and tell him/her they are doing a great job. But there are certain doctors who seem to enjoy the fact that they have an intimidating effect on others around them, especially people on the bottom of the pecking order.

I mean, I know there are tons of fantastic doctors out there who are very humble and down to earth. If there weren't, I don't think I'd be so excited to get into a field full of conceited individuals. Perhaps in a way its good that I can recognize this because I think I'll have a much greater appreciation for modesty if and when I enter the field.
 
The typical letter will tell you what the doctor has observed. Most of the letters provide information which is positive but the sort of thing we take for granted: well groomed, neatly dressed, alert, bright, energentic, respectful, curious. Were we expecting anyone to be described as dirty, sloppy, sleepy, stupid, disrespectful and bored?

Unlike faculty or coaches, a doc being shadowed doesn't have an opportunity to see the applicant interact with peers, to take responsibility for assignments, work under pressure, deal with disappointments or frustrations. These are the sorts of things that we can't observe during interviews and that faculty members write about based on their observations.

This really catches me by surprise. I would think that getting a LOR from a physician would be a better indicator of the type of applicant as opposed to a letter from a professor. I can see how a letter from a faculty member who has mentored you in an area of research could provide the best letter, but when it comes to professors who teach classes, I don't think the majority of them really know or care all that much about how well the applicant interacts with peers, or completes assignments. Someone who got a LOR from a professor told me that it was along the lines of, "He comes to office hours. He tries hard."

Perhaps there are professors out there who write stellar letters of rec. My current advisor is the former assistant dean of admissions from Stanford, and he really valued a LOR from a physician because it conveyed something regarding how we carry ourselves in a stressful healthcare setting. He says that he looked for letters from physicians that demonstrated that the applicant really understood the daily life in the hospital or clinic, because medical schools frown upon individuals who are interested in the field because of the adrenaline rush and Hollywood depiction of healthcare. Perhaps every committee member values something different :)
 
I know how you feel, it can be very intimidating because it can feel like you are interrupting them in the middle of something important. I would say to just introduce yourself and let them know you have an interest in going to medical school. If the doctor isn't a total ass, he/she will be more likely pay a little bit more attention to you. . .maybe they won't mind if you watch them perform a procedure or something. It entirely depends on the physician. I wouldn't expect them to go out of their way to make you feel comfortable though. I'm doing clinical research in the ER, so I'm in and out of there multiple times a day. I found it very intimidating at first, but introducing myself made everything a lot less awkward. Some of the docs, nurses, and techs recognize me now and they know my interest, so if they know I'm around they'll ask me to come watch an I&D or suturing or something. It's little stuff, but it builds a rapport. You have to open the door though, try not to be so shy about it.

This is just a side note, but if you have any chance to do clinical research, I would jump on it. I've been working closely with three doctors since May, and now I wouldn't feel hesitant to ask any one of them for a recommendation. They've invited me to shadow them on various occasions and I always get a page if there is something good going on in the ER. I realize this is probably not the norm, but it's worth a try if you want to really build a relationship with a doc. Both of you will feel much more comfortable about LOR once the time comes.

But anyway, good luck with that!
 
Okay, I am totally confused....should I ask the doctor I'm shadowing for a letter of recommendation or NO, because it seems from this thread that there's no point in asking for a letter....just shadowing for the "experience"...I have had enough of shadowing for a while...doctors are arrogant and think they are the best people in the world when they are just normal human beings...seriously I wish I don't become a cocky doctor someday because I would hate to be the person on the other side...for example the doctor I am shadowing clearly thinks I'm stupid and that I lack common sense because of my idiotic questions that are redundant...but that's what happens when you shadow a doctor for over a month...there's nothing else to talk about especially when he's extremely busy writing prescriptions and calling patients and I'm just sitting there trying to look interested when in fact I'd rather be home sleeping...seriously, this is why medical schools don't require a letter from a doctor, because it's absolutely pointless, the doctor doesn't know me at all and I was wondering if I should like sit down with him and tell him my life story etc...in order for him to write a letter of rec for me but then again should I ask this doctor...I feel so inadequate with him and he's intimidating for sure and I don't like being judged by my ACT score...seriously and so I am lost???
 
you guys need to shadow some pediatricians. they are the nicest human beings.
i've been able to shadow 4 and all of them have been open and interested in teaching me exactly what their job is all about. one has even gone out of her way to show me "interesting cases."
 
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