Getting a second bachelors degree?

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quark123

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This has the potential to be a very long post, but I will keep it short (as much as I can).

I am (barely) graduating from a top 15 school (hint: it is well known for sports) this semester. I will be graduating as a physics major with a GPA of 2.4 (science GPA of 2.1). Knock off 0.5 on both since AMCAS factors in failed grades (quite a few.. which eventually got retaken). Very surprising since this came from the perfect HS student on track to becoming a MD.

The story
My first year obvious symptoms of serious anxiety started to manifest (inability to focus, avoidance & fear of basic tasks, anti-social, progressive weight gain, issues sleeping etc.). On top of all that, I was struggling with issues of figuring out my faith and finding meaning in my life. I somewhat attributed the symptoms above to this personal issue. Overall, it got much better as senior year approached, as I have created methods to manage to my health (creating a personal journal, daily exercise, strict diet + sleep routine, etc.) throughout the past few years.

Bottom Line
Once I return to my home state, I will probably take a year off until summer 2019. There is a respectable state school where I can finish my degree within 2.5 years (taking a full load of 18 hours all semesters + a ton of summer classes). I will be around 25k in debt at graduation (just tuition since I will be living with parents). I can get a degree in Chemistry this time. I can shadow within those three years. I can get recommendations within those 3 years. I only had one extracurricular in college that I was passionate about but I can also continue that within those 3 years (that extracurricular will probably be the topic of my essay... it is volunteering based & it helped me sort out my issues quite a lot).

I don't think an SMP or masters (which will both be stressful and even more expensive) can fix my first undergraduate attempt. The same way a totaled car cannot be fixed.

I am aware also of the stigma against these type of health issues. By the time I apply, I will be at least 4 years apart from that experience with a whole new portfolio of strong factors (new gpa, LOR, shadowing, etc.). I will definitely need to create a positive story out of this and sell it.

Is that my best course of action? Is it wise to even mention that on my application?
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@Goro would know better but a 2.4 cGPA and a 2.1 sGPA is deadly. Med schools won't even look at your application no matter how well you write it. I have no clue if a second degree (assuming 4.0 gpa) would remedy it enough.
 
No. You're not going to get into medical school. Don't bother.

On a positive note, as a physics major from Duke, you'll have good job prospects in the real world. Good luck.
 
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@doc05 and @ajb24

Is it the stigma against mental health, in general? or does that first degree kill the chances no matter what?
 
I can raise it to a 3.0 with one more year of classes. And I can raise the science GPA to a 2.5. The overall trend will be positive.

Would some route be viable then?
 
The issue is GPA tells schools you can handle workloads over a long period of time. Maybe if you get it up and get straight A's in a second major you can apply DO. Your MD dreams might be shot but you never know unless you try. Some schools look past a poor MCAT if you have a good GPA, but it doesn't work the other way around.
 
So DO is viable, as long as the second GPA is near perfect and the MCAT is well above their average (90th percentile+)?

Is mental health (even if just anxiety) a taboo topic to even bring up?
 
Med schools don’t stigmatize against applicants with mental health issues...

I don’t think you can come back from sub 2.0 gpas OP. I would advise you look into other careers, there are tons in healthcare you could pursue.
 
quark123 said:
So DO is viable, as long as the second GPA is near perfect and the MCAT is well above their average (90th percentile+)?

Is mental health (even if just anxiety) a taboo topic to even bring up?
Click to expand...
I'm just not sure if a second bachelors is worth it. I guess it is viable if you get straight A's and score well on the MCAT but that is a huge commitment and risk because it is not at all certain.
 
Will they "average" the two degrees?

I do not mind getting the second degree and finishing med school (even if DO) once I turn 30. I really want to become an Emergency Medicine Physician (which is DO friendly) and the ability is definitely there. The issue I had these past few years really complicated this undergraduate degree
 
quark123 said:
@doc05 and @ajb24

Is it the stigma against mental health, in general? or does that first degree kill the chances no matter what?
Click to expand...

No issues with stigma. If you've resolved those issues, you should be fine.

The issue is that your GPA is not fixable.. no matter how many 'A's you get in the second degree, your overall gpa will still be very low - just do the math. Moreover, a chemistry major is painful, and straight 'A's is not likely.

Even IF you take enough credits (and all 'A's) to bring your GPA up to 3.5 - this would be a ton of coursework - you'll still have a ton of bad grades on your transcript.

More importantly, keep in mind that a career in medicine isn't worth it. Do something else. You'll be better off in the long run.
 
Okay so I'm all about people pursuing their goals and dreams so here we go. You should NOT major in chemistry. Major in biochem, or cell/molecular biology, biology, etc. Straight A's in any science major is very difficult because science is very difficult. Even if you get straight A's your overall GPA is still not great but never say never when it comes to what certain schools are looking for. I'll never tell you it is impossible (with your current GPA it is kinda impossible) but it is a very very hard road that will most likely end in not getting into med school. I'm just trying to be straight with you. If you go back maybe get a nursing degree and be a NP or CRNA.
 
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I could definitely do it. I am not a "bad" student. Not even close. I got into a top 15 school with a 3.9 HS GPA and national awards for biology research (not any other gimmick related to sports, being a minority, or special connections). My issues these past few years was I had trouble even finishing the content in classes. There were semesters were I had only gotten through 25% of the content by exam time. The Anxiety was that bad. The issue is mostly resolved now. And there will be a 3-4 year gap between junior year of degree 1 and end of degree 2 full of good grades (including this semester where I am taking near graduate level Physics courses).

At my state school, I will be competing with average students from around the state. An A will not be impossible within the more difficult classes within that degree
 
You never know unless you try. Go for it and I wish the very best for you! I am interested in EM as well!
 
I am interested (in particular) about the mental health topic.

Doc05's assurance that it does not (by itself) ruin your chances is nice to hear. Can other's please give their opinion on this? There will definitely be a good amount of years between my health issues and the time of applying. So the admission counselor should know for sure that it won't be an issue within med school.
 
quark123 said:
This has the potential to be a very long post, but I will keep it short (as much as I can).

I am (barely) graduating from a top 15 school (hint: it is well known for sports) this semester. I will be graduating as a physics major with a GPA of 2.4 (science GPA of 2.1). Knock off 0.5 on both since AMCAS factors in failed grades (quite a few.. which eventually got retaken). Very surprising since this came from the perfect HS student on track to becoming a MD.

The story
My first year obvious symptoms of serious anxiety started to manifest (inability to focus, avoidance & fear of basic tasks, anti-social, progressive weight gain, issues sleeping etc.). On top of all that, I was struggling with issues of figuring out my faith and finding meaning in my life. I somewhat attributed the symptoms above to this personal issue. Overall, it got much better as senior year approached, as I have created methods to manage to my health (creating a personal journal, daily exercise, strict diet + sleep routine, etc.) throughout the past few years.

Bottom Line
Once I return to my home state, I will probably take a year off until summer 2019. There is a respectable state school where I can finish my degree within 2.5 years (taking a full load of 18 hours all semesters + a ton of summer classes). I will be around 25k in debt at graduation (just tuition since I will be living with parents). I can get a degree in Chemistry this time. I can shadow within those three years. I can get recommendations within those 3 years. I only had one extracurricular in college that I was passionate about but I can also continue that within those 3 years (that extracurricular will probably be the topic of my essay... it is volunteering based & it helped me sort out my issues quite a lot).

I don't think an SMP or masters (which will both be stressful and even more expensive) can fix my first undergraduate attempt. The same way a totaled car cannot be fixed.

I am aware also of the stigma against these type of health issues. By the time I apply, I will be at least 4 years apart from that experience with a whole new portfolio of strong factors (new gpa, LOR, shadowing, etc.). I will definitely need to create a positive story out of this and sell it.

Is that my best course of action? Is it wise to even mention that on my application?
Click to expand...
I don't think that you need to re-do another UG degree. Read this (and the key thing to note that at this point, it's NOT about raising the GPA), but showing that you can perform at a prolonged level of excellence:
Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

Med school will be even more stressful. So right now, you need to show that you can handle it. That's why some MD schools (and all DO ) reward reinvention.
 
Be sure your anxiety/mental health is in check.

Med school has a funny way of making all of those old issues come back and much worse than before.
 
Hate to say it but either take a semester or year of retakes OR grad school.
I have a 2.85ish GPA and calculated I can get a 3.05 after the retakes this semester.
I feel confident I will score well on the MCAT as my retention of the information has so far proved excellent 🙂
 
I have three bachelor's degrees... didn't do well on my first, went into a different field for my second, and then got a bachelor's in bio and took the premed classes for the third. I got accepted to a DO school this year - they definitely reward reinvention. Your dreams are not done for.
 
quark123 said:
Thank you so much Goro. I really appreciate it.

@calivianya: what was your gpa for the first one?
Click to expand...
It wasn't as low as yours, a 3.27... but that included several replaced grades (which still counted against me in AMCAS even if it didn't at the school) and also included a semester with a GPA <1.0 - two D-, 1 F.
 
Update: My final GPA will be around 2.7c and 2.5s without grade replacement, if I do strongly this semester (3.7+ average).

The gap between cumul and science is smaller because I am taking science classes (entirely) this semester, which helps repair it somewhat
 
Is there a reason for your poor performance? Frankly right now I doubt your ability to get near a 4.0 in a second bachelors degree much less be able to survive the rigors of medical school.
I’m not trying to be mean here but I’d hate for you to throw good money after bad and keep pushing towards a goal you aren’t gonna reach.
 
Have you considered other fields of medicine? Because practically speaking, trying to be a doctor would not be the most efficient use of time if your goal is to make a comfortable living and work with patients. The time commitment to retake courses, apply maybe multiple cycles, do med school and then do residency is quite the long process. Have you considered PT/OT, anesthesia assistant, or other united health care fields? I feel a lot of people get bogged down with the whole doctor thing when in the end these other fields probably will suit them better in terms of time and resources spent for the return in investment.
 
quark123 said:
I am (barely) graduating from a top 15 school... Overall, it got much better as senior year approached... I can finish my [second] degree within 2.5 years (taking a full load of 18 hours all semesters + a ton of summer classes)... I don't think an SMP or masters (which will both be stressful and even more expensive) can fix my first undergraduate attempt... By the time I apply, I will be at least 4 years apart from that experience with a whole new portfolio of strong factors (new gpa, LOR, shadowing, etc.).
Click to expand...
A few thoughts and questions:
- It sounds like you have not had any clinical work experience, clinical volunteering or shadowing. How do you know that you want to be a doctor?
- Do you have an upward grade trend over your four undergrad years?
- If you have a low GPA from your Top 15 undergrad followed by a high GPA from your state school with little time in between, it will only look like the Top 15 school was too hard for you. Compare this to taking a few years' break from school to get some work and life experience, saving money for tuition, then returning as a more mature and focused student and getting great grades. That tells a more convincing story and would give you an alternative to talking about your health, if you decided to keep that private.
- What about a formal postbac program instead of trying to squeeze another four-year bachelors into 2.5 years? GPA repair is exactly what postbacs are for. Yes, all your undergrad grades would be rolled in together when AMCAS calculates your official GPAs. Grades from graduate courses would be separate and (with the possible exception of SMP grades) less important.
- If you do end up with a new portfolio of strong factors, that would be great, but don't count those chickens before they're hatched; you can't bank on perfect outcomes in the future to justify your decisions now. Take it more slowly. You are young with plenty of time.
- You're not a competitive applicant now, so don't worry now about what you're going to say on your application. See what the next few years bring. If your reinvention plan succeeds, come back for application advice then. You've shown resilience in addressing your health and personal issues so if you want to keep trying for med school despite very long odds, then craft the smartest plan you can and see how it goes, reevaluating along the way.
Best wishes to you!
 
Last edited:
I've asked a lot of questions that could otherwise have been answered via search, so I apologize for all this. There are many steps in this process:

Goro offered excellent advice. (DIY classes + SMP).

1. 70+ hours (mostly to retake the few pre-reqs I did badly in and to introduce many higher level science classes relevant to medicine) would bump my GPA near the 3.0 range, also helping the science GPA quite a lot. I will have around 130 hours after graduation and a GPA (not using Grade R) of ~2.3. A 4.0 in that batch of classes post-graduation will raise it near 3.0. The debt should will not be too bad (~$15k), since it is only a state school. I will have to take the MCAT and perform similarly as my peers (90+ percentile) to really help my application alongside shadowing/clinical work, interesting extracurriculars, etc. in these next few years.
2. The final step in the process is one year of a reputable SMP (e.g. GTown, who targets low gpa, high MCAT). If I cannot get into a trusted SMP, I would need to apply widely with my GPA to DO schools and hope the large upward trend + stellar MCAT + good shadowing and volunteering would help my chances, since they favor "re-invention".

I understand that there are many obstacles along the way (post-bac classes, MCAT, etc.) that I must perform well on, but this is something I want to dedicate myself to until I am around 25. If I cannot achieve this, I will accept that it is not meant to be.
 
quark123 said:
I've asked a lot of questions that could otherwise have been answered via search, so I apologize for all this. There are many steps in this process:

Goro offered excellent advice. (DIY classes + SMP).

1. 70+ hours (mostly to retake the few pre-reqs I did badly in and to introduce many higher level science classes relevant to medicine) would bump my GPA near the 3.0 range, also helping the science GPA quite a lot. I will have around 130 hours after graduation and a GPA (not using Grade R) of ~2.3. A 4.0 in that batch of classes post-graduation will raise it near 3.0. The debt should will not be too bad (~$15k), since it is only a state school. I will have to take the MCAT and perform similarly as my peers (90+ percentile) to really help my application alongside shadowing/clinical work, interesting extracurriculars, etc. in these next few years.
2. The final step in the process is one year of a reputable SMP (e.g. GTown, who targets low gpa, high MCAT). If I cannot get into a trusted SMP, I would need to apply widely with my GPA to DO schools and hope the large upward trend + stellar MCAT + good shadowing and volunteering would help my chances, since they favor "re-invention".

I understand that there are many obstacles along the way (post-bac classes, MCAT, etc.) that I must perform well on, but this is something I want to dedicate myself to until I am around 25. If I cannot achieve this, I will accept that it is not meant to be.
Click to expand...
This sounds like a reasonable plan that you'd be going into with eyes open. I would just add that if you can get your cGPA above the magic 3.0 mark, that would help you. Some MD schools do hard screenouts of anyone below 3.0 (a few use 3.2). Not sure about DOs. Only if you get past the hard screens will schools look beneath the surface to see the upward trend and other good stuff. Also, for what it's worth, I've done about 70 postbac units for GPA repair and I've read of a few others doing even more, so it's not an impossible goal. Best of luck!
 
Hello everyone 🙂 This is my last post on this website. I don't think I was thinking clearly yesterday.

It would be nothing short of insane to try medicine at this point. I will come out of age 32-33 with 300k+ in debt. & The stress in the next few years to try to gain a spot in med school would by itself be a lifetime of stress. I guess it was not meant to be.

- I will most likely take an extra semester this fall to fix a lot of F's on my transcript. My transcript consists of around 100 hours (+ 20 hrs from HS AP classes which don't count in my gpa but add my hrs to 120 so I can graduate). Around 20 hours of that is failed classes in fall semester intro courses, which has killed my GPA. If I do well this semester and replace those F's this fall (with an A- average), my cum GPA will jump to 2.7 by this summer and around 3.3 by Christmas. My school does simple grade replacement.
- After I get a respectable GPA that I can put on my resume, I can concentrate on a different career path (e.g. actuary). Needless to say, my school offers excellent resources and connections. I just need to do my research this summer and start planning early.

Thanks for all the responses.
 
There's a thread that may give you some inspiration. If medicine is something you truly want to pursue, then find a way to make it happen. I myself mustn't be a hypocrite, but hopefully, this could help you. Save money and invest in admission's specialist websites like Kaplan or MedEdits. I was on the same route as you, and after much discouragement, I came across such sites on many other threads. Hopefully, this post isn't too late to inspire you towards your career goals!

Success Stories:
LOW GPA/MCAT Success Stories (Posts by Nontrads Already Accepted to Med School)

Thread dedicated to others below 3.0:
Below 3.0 gpa Support Group/Thread
 
quark123 said:
This has the potential to be a very long post, but I will keep it short (as much as I can).

I am (barely) graduating from a top 15 school (hint: it is well known for sports) this semester. I will be graduating as a physics major with a GPA of 2.4 (science GPA of 2.1). Knock off 0.5 on both since AMCAS factors in failed grades (quite a few.. which eventually got retaken). Very surprising since this came from the perfect HS student on track to becoming a MD.

The story
My first year obvious symptoms of serious anxiety started to manifest (inability to focus, avoidance & fear of basic tasks, anti-social, progressive weight gain, issues sleeping etc.). On top of all that, I was struggling with issues of figuring out my faith and finding meaning in my life. I somewhat attributed the symptoms above to this personal issue. Overall, it got much better as senior year approached, as I have created methods to manage to my health (creating a personal journal, daily exercise, strict diet + sleep routine, etc.) throughout the past few years.

Bottom Line
Once I return to my home state, I will probably take a year off until summer 2019. There is a respectable state school where I can finish my degree within 2.5 years (taking a full load of 18 hours all semesters + a ton of summer classes). I will be around 25k in debt at graduation (just tuition since I will be living with parents). I can get a degree in Chemistry this time. I can shadow within those three years. I can get recommendations within those 3 years. I only had one extracurricular in college that I was passionate about but I can also continue that within those 3 years (that extracurricular will probably be the topic of my essay... it is volunteering based & it helped me sort out my issues quite a lot).

I don't think an SMP or masters (which will both be stressful and even more expensive) can fix my first undergraduate attempt. The same way a totaled car cannot be fixed.

I am aware also of the stigma against these type of health issues. By the time I apply, I will be at least 4 years apart from that experience with a whole new portfolio of strong factors (new gpa, LOR, shadowing, etc.). I will definitely need to create a positive story out of this and sell it.

Is that my best course of action? Is it wise to even mention that on my application?
Click to expand...

By no means am I an expert. I'm going to be applying this cycle but I have some information that may be able to help you. I don't want to discourage you from medicine if that's what you really want to do. I also feel like you may be able to figure it out and your past does not define your future. There are a few schools that focus on post-bacc classes and SMP's in that they look at and focus on your last 30 units or so of classes and if you do well in those classes they will use your post-bacc as your sGPA and cGPA. One school from the top of my head that does that is Wayne state. By no means does this mean you'll get accepted but this does mean that you have a chance at schools like Wayne State.

P.S I am happy you've learned to deal with your mental health issues. It's not easy. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
 
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