Getting into Med School when still in High School?!

[deleted112134]

My cousin recently got into such a program, and by the end of her third year she is expected to have a 3.7 GPA.
She has to take advanced courses in physiology, genetics, molecular biology, etc.
She has to have at least 80 hours of volunteer work,
a YEAR of research,
and at least a 30 on the MCAT.

This probably is a rare example which I agree is fair What school is it?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted112134]

The students who are accepted worked their ass off in high school just as we all are working our asses off right now to gain acceptance.

Oh and another thing, not all of them allow you to skip the MCAT. Many of them require a minimum score of 27 or 28 and i think a GPA of 3.5.

Dude, most of us Premeds worked our butts off in high school, too.

I believe, with 27 and 28 on MCAT, you can only aim for DO at most.

 

[Textuality]

I considered one, and am glad I didn't go. What's the rush anyways? I had a blast goofing off in college, and can't imagine missing a single one of those years! I even took a year off after I graduated early,so that I could stay around the full 4 year term

That, and I had NO IDEA what to even look for in a med school back in high school, even though I did know I wanted to be a physician.

As to the topic of whether it's a good idea/fair? Going to medical school after high school is the norm in many countries, I believe England is this way (but correct me if I'm wrong) So it's not like a mind boggling idea. In fact, I think we're one of the few countries where you must complete undergrad before applying to medical school.

 

[MsJLewis]

I believe, with 27 and 28 on MCAT, you can only aim for DO at most.

Incorrect. Avg allo matriculant MCAT hovers around a 30 which means some are above and some are below. A 27/28 won't necessarily rule you out of allo, but it will make it much more difficult to get an acceptance.

 

[deleted112134]

Going to medical school after high school is the norm in many countries, I believe England is this way (but correct me if I'm wrong) So it's not like a mind boggling idea. In fact, I think we're one of the few countries where you must complete undergrad before applying to medical school.

Yes, the same goes for Germany, France and Japan, etc.

One thing you need to know is their much more rigorous high-school curriculum (compared to U.S).

For example: In China and Japan, high school students have to learn Calculus and Organic Chem in 11th and 12th grades. So as I see, their academics have sufficiently prepare them for Medical.

Their process of getting into college (any college) is MUCH more difficult than ours, BUT once they've got in, college is gentler than ours.

Are US and Canada the only 2 countries where you must complete undergrad first ?


Ah, talk about someone mentioning "forego Harvard acceptance for BS/MD program" : my view is, you were not forced into anything. You had the choice to choose which was better for you, right, and you knew which was better.

PS: There once was a 20-page thread like this and I forgot what was said. Hmmm, I'm debating with myself whether it's right to say any Med school offering BS/MD program is "below average" ?!

.

 

[RySerr21]

Dude, most of us Premeds worked our butts off in high school, too.

I believe, with 27 and 28 on MCAT, you can only aim for DO at most.

that is a blatantly ignorant assumption and is a prime example of why the pre-allo forum on SDN can be so f'ing irritating. get over your ego, yes gaining an MD acceptance is difficult, but you dont need a 3.9/36.

tell you what, i got a 28 on my MCAT, ill let you know how this cycle turns out. but if you dont want to wait several months for me to prove you wrong, there was a thread floating around titled something like "MD interviews with MCAT scores between 27-29." many of those people with interviews gained acceptances. The MCAT is a very small piece of the puzzle.

as per your first comment, no doubt that most pre meds worked their butts off in high school, but very few knew for a fact that they were going in to medicine. So much so that they were able to convince a medical school that they knew their career path at the age of 18. Thats an impressive accomplishment that not many people can achieve. Just think, all of the things you and other pre meds are doing during college to prepare your apps for med school, the Bac/MD students were doing as early as freshmen year of high school......14-15 years of age and preparing for a career in medicine......INSANE. props to anybody that was fortunate enough and driven enough to gain an acceptance to one of these programs.

 

[Textuality]

Yes, the same goes for Germany, France and Japan, etc.

One thing you need to know is their much more rigorous high-school curriculum (compared to U.S).

For example: In China and Japan, high school students have to learn Calculus and Organic Chem in 11th and 12th grades. So as I see, their academics have sufficiently prepare them for Medical.

.

Mmmm... I'm pretty sure neither of my cousins (they're both high school grads here in Beijing) have the slightest clue how to do organic chemistry, certainly not at an MCAT testing level anyways..I'll ask them next time I see them though.

 

[deleted112134]

Anyone from Asia who can confirm that ? My studying-abroad friend skipped 2 levels of Calc, took a higher, honor class in his freshman year. To add to the piece: their Physics is the Physics (Mechanics & Magnetism) we learn in college.

- ryserr21: I'd love to reply to you, but would you mind watching your attitude?

Honestly, do you think that most anyone that could get into these programs would not be able to reproduce the success in college as well to get into medical school? Most of the students have top notch grades, top notch SAT/ACT, extra-curriculars and the usual stuff people would have to do to get into medical school (without the research).

Do you compare hs grades to college grades, knowing the level of American hs curriculum? Aye! Taking 6 AP's myself, I daresay it's not the real rigor.
Many many students of my undergrad school were in top 10th of their hs, yet in college - where everyone is just as smart as you, you must work extra hard to stand out. Your attitude does make a bigger difference than your past grades.

My, I do hope in the future, U.S. Med schools will drop the double standard altogether: either do it the way Asian Med schools do or drop the combined programs.

 

[Diksha]

This probably is a rare example which I agree is fair What school is it?

The med school is University of South Florida, while the undergrad institution is University of Central Florida. You gotta be a Florida resident to be in it, though

 

[deleted158872]

oh how quickly we moved alright, one by one

If you do not know the number of BS/MD matriculants nor the number of other matriculants and their SAT scores, how can you have a valid opinion regarding this undergraduate admission policy?

i thought you said "near perfect SAT"? i look at MSAR, too, most accept 10-20, one school accepts up to 70 (if i remember correctly). there are others who carry high SATs besides BS/MD students.

There is nothing "unfair" about a University offering different routes to medical school graduation. You didn't choose to seek out such a program. That doesn't make it unfair.

the nature of the programs which gives so much advantage & ignore certain things is unfair already . it's not why there are the programs, but why there are less criteria to gain acceptance.

Anyone from Asia who can confirm that ? My studying-abroad friend skipped 2 levels of Calc, took a higher, honor class in his freshman year. To add to the piece: their Physics is the Physics (Mechanics & Magnetism) we learn in college.

I lived in Vietnam for 15 yrs. In 11th grade, we - 'they', b/c I'm not there - take Organic in 1st semester and Inorganic 2nd semester.
For Physics, we start it since 8th grade, keep going till it reaches (at least) the Phy required to enter med schools.

-
t'is nice: http://honors.usf.edu/ap_med.html :
GPA: 3.7
Must take MCAT with min score of 30
Must do research + volunteer

really, if bac/md programs set similar expectations for their students, I'll be speechless

 

[Depakote]

Life is unfair and you'll be expected to deal with that plenty of times.

But this far from being something worth getting worked-up over.

1.) Medical Schools have the choice to admit anyone at their discretion. Given the appropriate approvals, it would be completely within their right for them to publish an admissions policy that permitted the dean of admissions to walk down the street and admit the first 200 people he saw. They are not required to fill X Percentage of their class with undergraduates/nontrads/etc, it is simply the policy that has worked best for them.

2.) As it has been pointed out above, you had every opportunity to apply to combined-degree programs when you were applying to colleges. I apologize if you were not sufficiently informed enough to be aware of these programs, however it is not the medical school's responsibility to ensure this. They have an ample number of competitive students that desire the seats they are providing, they clearly do not need to take action to increase this demand. In this situation (a high demand market), the responsibility to learn about the program lies with the student, it is not the schools responsibility to advertise.

3.) There are many combined degree programs out there. According to the AAMC, 37 schools (about 25%) have combined degree programs, I suspect the number of schools that have alternate means of entry is even higher. The students that enter via these means are going to be your classmates. You will have to form working relationships with them over 4 years. Are you going to silently (or loudly) resent them because they had a slightly different pre-med path?

4.) personal advice: worry about your own pre-med path, not what everyone else is doing. It's just going to stress you out.

 

[Diksha]

oh how quickly we moved alright, one by one
i thought you said "near perfect SAT"? i look at MSAR, too, most accept 10-20, one school accepts up to 70 (if i remember correctly). there are others who carry high SATs besides BS/MD students.
the nature of the programs which gives so much advantage & ignore certain things is unfair already .
I lived in Vietnam for 15 yrs. In 11th grade, we - 'they', b/c I'm not there - take Organic in 1st semester and Inorganic 2nd semester.
For Physics, we start it since 8th grade, keep going till it reaches (at least) the Phy required to enter med schools. I dont know if it goes further still b/c I'm not there anyway
then it's funny how my uncle (who grew up in America) said, "I can't believe ur education is higher than us!!" [i'm not proud of it though, though their curriculum is high, their system is insufficent in other ways].
Japan's and Germany's are really good.
t'is nice: http://honors.usf.edu/ap_med.html :
GPA: 3.7
Must take MCAT with min score of 30
Must do research + volunteer
really, if bac/md programs set similar expectations for their students, I'll have nothing against them

Yep, that's the one!

Okay, see, I've done some reading on undergraduate medical education in other countries (such as the MBBS degree in India) and I feel that it is remarkable that undergrads should start such challenging courses as biochemistry, anatomy, and pathophysiology straight out of high school. Even if their high school science courses in biology, chemistry, and physics were at an introductory college level (and I trust that they were), there's quite a leap between those intro-level courses and medical school courses. I understand that there are people here who take nothing more than the prereqs before starting medical school, but they have at least had a bit more experience with college education and life in general. To tackle the education beast, and then to be faced with your first clinical experiences at the same time must be quite eye-opening (if not extremely difficult) for 17 or 18 year olds.

To play devil's advocate, at least combined-degree programs are not asking you to start studying medicine right off the bat! And trust me, the types of kids they admit have the native intelligence and drive to do well in medical school, even if they might be unsuited in other ways. They aren't generally the types of people to decide that they can slack off in undergrad, nor are they so docile that they will just let mommy and daddy tell them they should be doctors without investigating it for themselves. I'm not saying these programs are perfect, but I would argue that the people who get into them generally deserve to go to medical school at the end.

 

[deleted158872]

1.) Medical Schools have the choice to admit anyone at their discretion. Given the appropriate approvals, it would be completely within their right for them to publish an admissions policy that permitted the dean of admissions to walk down the street and admit the first 200 people he saw. They are not required to fill X Percentage of their class with undergraduates/nontrads/etc, it is simply the policy that has worked best for them.

That is NOT a good analogy, Depakote.

2.) As it has been pointed out above, you had every opportunity to apply to combined-degree programs when you were applying to colleges. I apologize if you were not sufficiently informed enough to be aware of these programs, however it is not the medical school's responsibility to ensure this. They have an ample number of competitive students that desire the seats they are providing, they clearly do not need to take action to increase this demand. In this situation (a high demand market), the responsibility to learn about the program lies with the student, it is not the schools responsibility to advertise.

that is not my point .it's not why there are the programs, but why there are less criteria/barrier/requirements/whatever for these students to gain acceptance to med schools!

about the publishing thing: i mean, if they want high-score applicants, they should have worked on publishing rather than installing these programs.

3.) There are many combined degree programs out there. According to the AAMC, 37 schools (about 25%) have combined degree programs, I suspect the number of schools that have alternate means of entry is even higher.

i hope the # continue rising fast so one day, all med schools will fill all their seats with high-school applicants & no mcat & no high gpa , everyone'll be happy !

 

[RySerr21]

- ryserr21: I'd love to reply to you, but would you mind watching your attitude?

yes, please reply. i only have an attitude when people make blanket generalizations that are competely untrue, so if you refrain from doing that I dont think my attitude will be a problem. i'm all about civil conversation.you can even PM me if youd like.

 

[RapplixGmed]

Ah, talk about someone mentioning "forego Harvard acceptance for BS/MD program" : my view is, you were not forced into anything. You had the choice to choose which was better for you, right, and you knew which was better.

.

Oops. You're absolutely right, that was bad wording on my part. I was just trying to say that there was absolutely no way that I would have gone to my undergrad without the guarantee but with the guarantee, it also wasn't a hard decision.

Granted, I probably could be able to get into better schools from a better undergrad but who knows? One acceptance letter in hand is better than 30 possible acceptances in the future.

Anyways, I think BS/MD is a great choice. With it, I took more academic risks than I would have without it and I became a better person/student because of it.

Yea, I agree with the people before about HS education. I was lucky in that I took Orgo, Physiology, and multivariate calc in high school so I was ready to roll in college. Speaking to my cousins in china, this is comparable to the education that they get in high school too.

I think it has a lot to do with the student's personality. Do you perform better when something is actually on the line or when you have the freedom to do whatever you want?

 

[Narmerguy]

Do you compare hs grades to college grades, knowing the level of American hs curriculum? Aye! Taking 6 AP's myself, I daresay it's not the real rigor.
Many many students of my undergrad school were in top 10th of their hs, yet in college - where everyone is just as smart as you, you must work extra hard to stand out. Your attitude does make a bigger difference than your past grades.

Firstly, I compared motivation in hs to motivation in college. These programs do not base their acceptance on merely grades for that reason. Applicants are expected not only to be in the top group of their hs, but they are expected to have extraordinary test scores and heavy extracurriculars usually with the usual leadership experience bs blah blah. A student who is motivated to successfully stand out so well from their national peers in high school would usually be expected to be motivated to achieve that necessary for a future admittable student. Whether they will still be markedly better than all other college students is debatable but one could at least reasonably expect them to meet the level of an average medical student at X university.

As far as fairness, it's as fair as anything else. If your school doesn't have AP classes, then you suffer the misfortune of your location. Likewise, some students in undergrad attend small local universities that don't have an abundance of research opportunities or many locations to get clinical experience or only a few clubs of which to be a part of. If your only strike on these is that not everyone has the same chance that's something that can't always be accounted for. Some schools give special preference to in state students, some schools give special preference to URM, some schools give special preference to financially disadvantaged students, some schools give special preference to legacy students, some schools give special preference to smelly students. It's all a typical part of the school acceptance process.

 

[LovelyBRass]

I applied to BS/MD programs out of high school, and while no one likes to get rejected, I have to say, I'm glad I didn't get into a single one of them. I have a few background stories of three friends I know in these programs, and I'd like to know what you think (and if you think I'm just complaining, I guess).

Combined Bachelor's/Medical degrees are ridiculous - I don't know anyone to have a positive experience with this program, other than the guaranteed acceptance part (and trust me, that's saying a mouthful). I'm from NY (can't comment on the west coast schools people have brought up) and I know three people who are in one of these programs. Two of them are in a BS/MD program with Albany Medical College and neither will be graduating from medical school on time (ie: in four years). They were required to be Biology majors undergrad and had to maintain a 3.75 GPA. While you may have decided to be a bio major on your own and you may also have striven for a 3.75, you still got to choose what you wanted to do you got to allow yourself leniency if you did fall just a little short of your GPA goal. And neither of them could have applied anywhere else, as they graduated early and took very few classes outside of the required ones (I guess they found it difficult to fit them in in three years?). They aren't graduating on time because they say it's "a lot of work," and I really think they were just too young and immature to start and complete a program like this out of high school.

My third friend is at NYCOM in the BS/DO program. I asked her what she would have done if she didn't get in and she said she wouldn't have become a doctor, "because I wouldn't have been able to get into medical school the 'normal way.'" She didn't even break 1200 on her SAT and she got in without an interview (and don't ask about her ECs... they weren't anything more than what any of us did). She was completely miserable her undergrad years because of the pressures of keeping her GPA up (I think it was a 3.5/3.6; poor baby), but that isn't the worst part. Minimally, she had to complete 100 hours of community service and get a 24 on her MCAT. She would sit on her ass all summer (yes, I'm bitter) and only completed those hours during winter break of her last year there (ridiculous) and she took three tries to get a 24. I know for a lot of people, taking three tries to get a 24 is a reality, I'm not saying that they don't deserve to go to medical school, but these people usually have exceptional ECs and broader stories than this friend. I suppose I might be jealous of how easy things are for her, but really, after hearing this story, would you want to apply to a program that allows such embarrassing candidates to complete a medical degree? (okay, so maybe we're not that close of friends 0 )

Maybe California schools, etc, are better at choosing candidates or I just happen to have a particularly immature group of friends, but I really feel like these situations make a mockery of the process of becoming a physician.

 

[TheRealMD]

I personally dislike the schools that essentially sign your life away for 8 years instead of 4 by not allowing you to pick another school. While yes, it is an extremely good opportunity, if the main benefactor was the undergraduate school and not the medical school, then there should be no need to keep them at the medical school. Plus, with BS/MD class sizes capped around 5% or so, 10 people hardly makes a dent in a student body unless we're talking really small schools here.

 

[deleted158872]

1.) Given the appropriate approvals, it would be completely within their right for them to publish an admissions policy that permitted the dean of admissions to walk down the street and admit the first 200 people he saw.

I'd be interested in knowing how soon they'd be closing due to the # of lives they harmed rather than cured

Anyways, I think BS/MD is a great choice. With it, I took more academic risks than I would have without it and I became a better person/student because of it.
Do you perform better when something is actually on the line or when you have the freedom to do whatever you want?

To put it bluntly, it's because the program paved all obstacles out of your way
The most blanket of blanket generalizations I've read : 'those students got into BS/MD programs, they must be stellar' kind of thing I don't automatically recognize them as "stellar" unless you-know-what ^^You forgot the BS/MD ones are not competing on equal ground with the rest. Obviously, having a safeguard behind your back doesn't impress me.

I'm not saying that they don't deserve to go to medical school [....]
but really, after hearing this story, would you want to apply to a program that allows such embarrassing candidates to complete a medical degree?

Those BS/MD schools make a mockery of themselves : they think the process of becoming a doctor is a joke ! On one hand, they make a strict requirement of GPA >3.6 & MCAT 30, so it goes...
but on the other hand - disappointingly, for a mere benefit of increasing their undergrad student body - they're willing to make a cheap deal by admitting those with 3.3 or-- 0 MCAT !!!

You cannot underestimate the MCAT. I've seen cases of very bright students when the ONLY factor nailing them down is the MCAT!

I personally dislike the schools that essentially sign your life away for 8 years instead of 4 by not allowing you to pick another school.

While yes, it is an extremely good opportunity, if the main benefactor was the undergraduate school and not the medical school, then there should be no need to keep them at the medical school. Plus, with BS/MD class sizes capped around 5% or so, 10 people hardly makes a dent in a student body unless we're talking really small schools here.

Nah, BS/MD students can drop out of the programs anytime they want.
I agree w/ the rest of your points though.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

There's a program like this at my school. The student has to graduate in 3 years, must maintain a 3.7 GPA and has to score a 30 on the MCAT. That's it though. No volunteering, no clinical experience, none of the other madness a regular pre-med goes through. I wish I could have gotten in on a deal like this.

 

[Chicagochew]

Just weighing in with my 2 cents. I do not think that these people will, in any way, be sub-par physicians. However, it does put students at a disadvantage if they went to public high schools that did not offer AP classes. (Many public high schools in certain states do not have the budget or student enrollment for an AP class). These students will not be accepted to such competitive programs. While many of these programs do require students to take the MCAT that are many that do not require the MCAT and simply have students take summer courses.

I would say that all of the students in the program should be held to high standards as one poster said. 3.7GPA, 30 MCAT and volunteering. That I think is reasonable.

However, have any of you thought how unfair the process is already? I mean arguments can be made that students who attend top 10 institutions have to deal with greater competition than those at some State Universities. Some people may have to deal with the fact that they have to have a job in order to earn enough money to go to school. There are inherent flaws in our system whether some high school kid gets a slot or not.

Oh, and the reason that students in Europe and Asia go to medical school straight out of high school is that EVERYONE must make a career choice straight out of high school. Secondly, a medical degree in most of the world is not considered a "doctorate" but rather a bachelors degree (MBBS in India for example).

 

[QbaLibre]

t'is nice: http://honors.usf.edu/ap_med.html :
GPA: 3.7
Must take MCAT with min score of 30
Must do research + volunteer

really, if bac/md programs set similar expectations for their students, I'll be speechless

I wish they had this when I was a freshman at USF (I'm a senior now). sheesh. I did really well in high school, and maybe if I had been in a program like this, I would have been more motivated to maintain high grades, which I didn't do in my first 2 years of college. USF honors college is a big joke though... it's the same classes you would take as a regular student, plus 3 or 4 easy 'honors' colloquia and a pointless 'thesis.'

But really, in high school, I had no idea I wanted to go to med school, as I think most people didn't. Even if I knew about these programs, I wouldn't have applied, and I think it puts those of us who didn't always know we wanted to be in medicine at that disadvantage. Plus, I went to a NYC public school... what are AP classes? I don't think we had those in brooklyn
... but I guess it's just like, add one more disadvantage to the long list of disadvantages I'm already looking at, hah. One more won't kill me.

 

[deleted158872]

Just weighing in with my 2 cents. I do not think that these people will, in any way, be sub-par physicians. However, it does put students at a disadvantage if they went to public high schools that did not offer AP classes. (Many public high schools in certain states do not have the budget or student enrollment for an AP class). These students will not be accepted to such competitive programs. While many of these programs do require students to take the MCAT that are many that do not require the MCAT and simply have students take summer courses.

I would say that all of the students in the program should be held to high standards as one poster said. 3.7GPA, 30 MCAT and volunteering. That I think is reasonable.

However, have any of you thought how unfair the process is already? I mean arguments can be made that students who attend top 10 institutions have to deal with greater competition than those at some State Universities. Some people may have to deal with the fact that they have to have a job in order to earn enough money to go to school. There are inherent flaws in our system whether some high school kid gets a slot or not.

Oh, and the reason that students in Europe and Asia go to medical school straight out of high school is that EVERYONE must make a career choice straight out of high school. Secondly, a medical degree in most of the world is not considered a "doctorate" but rather a bachelors degree (MBBS in India for example).

You hit the points!

I think I repeat it well enough : Good MD candidates don't need combined programs to get in! Therefore a program by which schools are making deals shouldn't exist. It violates fair opportunity. Whom will it benefit? The schools, and themselves, not patients, not society! Think about it.

If you want to go to Med school so badly, you should prove it, overcome obstacles by AT LEAST scoring decently on MCAT, right ? BS/MD students are taking the slots that otherwise should be available to qualifying candidates who have struggled through the madness, face the challenges, and motivated enough to overcome.