Getting into Med School when still in High School?!

[*fatmike*]

Maybe there is a thread somewhere on this forum about this topic, but i was just wondering what you all thought about programs that accept people into medschool when they are still in high school (or soon to graduate).

The one in particular that i am thinking of is in wisconsin (Madison) where they let in about 40-50 people while they are still in high school. they just have to maintain a 3.25 GPA and take all the pre-med requirements and they get in when they graduate. NO MCAT either! I know there are other programs like this, and quite honestly, I cannot stand them. To see adcoms put zillions of people through the rigors of an admissions process that realistically (for many) starts thier first year of undergrad, takes them through the MCAT, and finnally the application process itself. I have just thought of all the people with "average" stats (28-30 MCAT, 3.4-3.6 GPA) that do not get accepted to these schools while the schools themselves are letting people in with NO MCAT and a 3.25 in whatever major they want!

do these programs exist anywhere else, and am i the only one who thinks they are ridiculous!?

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[Maple]

There was (still is infact), a program like that in Creighton University(NE). Until 2 yrs ago, Creighton used to take almost 50% of its entrants(grads from CU not high school students..but they weren't required to take the MCAT) from that program, but that changed last year. When I interviewed there in Feb '02, Dean Nipper told us that CU was reducing the number of students entering from that program because there were problems with people passing STEP1. So...programs like that may not be the best thing in the world..but they do exist.

 

[lotanna]

yeah there are many. Its all in the MSAR book published by AAMC. My schl, Mich State has 1, called the Med scholars program. You can read about it by clickin on Admissions link here http://www.chm.msu.edu
If i had known better i'd have done that, cause I was top tenth percentile and could have got in then, as opposed to now

 

[Adcadet]

I think these programs should be eliminated. How can anybody really know what they want to do for the rest of their life at age 17 or 18? I also think these programs are unfair to other pre-meds. But, I don't know much about these programs. Perhaps there's an SDNer who's involved in one that can fill us in.

 

[Rapid Decomposition]

I don't mind the presence of these programs, but one thing that was a problem at my school (not so much anymore) is that the people who were admitted out of high school basically slacked off and did minimal work in college. When they got to med school, they were at the bottom of their class and were resented by the rest of their class.

The best reason to join one of these programs is to have that "insurance," but to still work hard so that you end up going to the medical school of your choice and be prepared when you get there. Don't join one as an excuse to slack off because you'll pay for it later. And your colleagues won't like you.

 

[TysonCook]

Cincinnati has a program as well. It basically works down to a min 27 MCAT , 3.4? GPA, and then the prereq's. But in the long run I think they lose about half of the applicants during their four years of college to other majors and fields.

here is UC's page:

med.uc.edu

 

[SunnyS81]

I applied to a few of these programs out of high school (Albany, USC, Northwestern) half-heartedly. I'm glad I didn't get in because I had no clue what I was getting into at the time, and I thought I was pretty mature. Can you gain perspective on undergrad+medical school+residency being 10 years or so when you are 18.........over half your life. More importantly, they limit your opportunities. You have to major in chemistry or biology typically, and if it is a shortened program (6 or 7 years) you have problems applying out. I'm a lot happier now since I have gotten into a top 10 program which is a lot better than any of the schools I could have gone to with combined bs/md programs.

just my $.02.

 

[bella_dottoressa]

I was really interested in a program like this my senior year of high school, and so was one of my friends and classmates. It is a nice idea of having the insurance of becoming a doctor. However, after visiting and learning more, we discovered that you really miss out on the "college experience". That may or may not be that big of an issue for different people, but it was for me. I'm having so much fun at Ohio State, while staying on track towards my goal of getting into med school. You just have to weigh the insurance factor (which is a big positive) versus the college life factor (which is a big negative for most people). Also, you really have to be exceptional in high school to get in. My friend who applied had much better "stats" than I, a 4.0 GPA with lots of upper level and college classes in high school and a pretty good ACT. I think that was the problem. But if you have good numbers and you don't mind missing out some on the "college experience" I would by all means go for it in order to avoid the stress that so many of the people on this forum are dealing with. Oh, and the MCAT too.

 

[nappy kat]

I hope that these programs are totally expunged, because it seems like they could possibly be producing sub-par physicians. At the very least, everyone should have to take the MCAT!

 

[chypes]

I was going to apply to a couple ...but i decided that I would be missing something as a result... Now im thinking i really wish that I wouldve applied to the one at ohio state (i know a couple people in it). I think the realy short ones are insane though...6 years to an MD just isnt enough. I may sort of make up my own and just graduate a year early though.....

 

[Dr. Wall$treet]

First off, FatMike is just a ****#ing badazs name! i couldnt agree more about immature HS poeple going into med.. i tell ya that is the biggets prob with med today. oh well. but cool name dude

 

[SouthernGirl]

Originally posted by Dr. Wall$treet
i couldnt agree more about immature HS poeple going into med.. i tell ya that is the biggets prob with med today.

So you think that immature high school people going into medicine is the biggest problem with medicine? Wow, I wish.

 

[Saluki]

Personally, I think those programs give unfair advantages to people who go to really rich prep schools because I didn't even know about the program till late, and then I was told I didn't qualify because I hadn't taken a whole bunch of AP courses. To tell the honest truth, my school didn't offer AP classes...

 

[Tweetie_bird]

life is really unfair, and we have to deal with a lot of BS.

I went to a school that didn't offer AP classes either. Getting into running start was a problem too....it's sad that our counsellors in high school and college are not well-informed enough to help us make these choices in our lives. In the very least, LEARNING about these opportunities can benefit us, right? We had some wonderful people to counsel us on our careers in high school, but not once did they talk to us about BS/MD programs. And all of them knew I had wanted to be a physician then.

I get really upset when I think that I could have done a BS/MD program and been in med school already. It feels unfair to see these little kiddies get in, but that's just life. We make the best of what we got.

 

[Dr. Dodger Dog]

I think these programs are awesome. I am in the 8 year b/md program at USC... and for someone like me who was sure I wanted to become a physician, it was a great way for me to explore other avenues of study while as an undergrad. It is true that you cannot be absolutely sure that you want to be a doctor after high school, but remember these programs don't LOCK you into going into med school. 8 year programs like the one at USC let you take pre-med requirements and explore other majors and courses.... this is exactly contrary to what people are saying in that this flexibility will allow you to explore other professions without sacrificing your dream of becoming a physician. So in short, going to an 8 year program like USC's will allow you to REALLY discover if a career in medicine is right for you. I would say that many if not most of the people in the program here have non-science majors including religion, spanish, cinema, music production, etc.


As for missing out on the college experience? I think having to stress out about EC's and academics would make you miss out on college life. Being in a program with a guaranteed med school admission lets you enjoy MORE. I've gone to TONS of USC football games (#8 in the nation! FIGHT ON!) and met some of the coolest friends I know I will ever have.

Do people slack off? Yeah... as with any given group of premeds, there are overachievers and underachievers. Last year, the graduating class of B/MD students at USC sent several students to UCLA, Hopkins, WashU, UCSD, UCSF, etc etc. People here are extremely bright and motivated. If you are motivated yourself, being in a med program will not change you.

Though I am applying to other med schools, I will not hesitate to turn down top 10 acceptances to go to USC Medical School-- it's in Los Angeles, my home... and it has some of the best clinical training you will find anywhere. With recent donations by the Keck Foundation, USC medical school is definitely on the rise. Graduates of Keck are competitive for all residencies.

The best part? While all my friends are applying to 20+ med schools, I only had to do 9 apps.

 

[Medical123]

I think it is great that some high school students are mature enough to make these kind of decisions at such an early age. These special programs do relieve a lot of stress and help those who truly want to practice medicine to reach their goals.

However, what bothers me about the "guaranteed acceptance" system is that for the vast majority of the applicants that are applying to medical school, numbers make a big difference as to whether or not that applicant is going to get accepted.

Some of these special programs don't even require their students to take the MCAT, much less make a certain score to keep their acceptance. I feel that these programs should require their students to make a certain score on the MCAT and maintain a certain GPA in order to keep their "guaranteed acceptance". If they fail to do so, their applications should go into the regular applicant pool just like everyone else's does. For example, if I make a 10 on the MCAT, I am going to get a thin letter informing me of my rejection in the mail, regardless of what other qualifications that I may have. Why should a "special program" student get accepted with the same score when there are hundreds of other traditional applicants being rejected with scores in the 30 range? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[zer0el]

There are two different topics going on here. One is whether or not these programs are fair/valid, and the other is would you go to them if you got in.

In regards to the first topic, they are fair because the individual medical schools say they are. Period. If I wanted to recruit academically gifted students from HS into my medical school, I'd probably do the same thing. I don't see the problem with that. If they turn out to be sh*tty doctors or end up failing med school, then that's just my fault. As long as they pass the boards and graduate from med school, who cares?

As for the second topic, hell yeah I would've gone to one of those programs. Off the top of my head, I applied to programs at Northwestern, CWRU, USC, and Rochester. I interviewed at some of them but didn't get into any. If I had, I certainly would've gone. Contrary to what someone said, being in one of these programs would probably enhance one's college experience. You'd have more time to relax and explore your interests instead of having to worry about acing the next ochem test. I had to bust my butt at my undergrad to get into a top 20 med school, and would much rather have taken it easy at one of those programs. The amount of work, stress, etc. going the traditional route is defnitely not worth it compared to a guaranteed program. Programs at CWRU and USC still allow you to apply out, so I don't see how it would be to one's disadvantage to attend them.

 

[Katie]

we have about 15 people in our class at Tufts who matriculated via the guarenteed admissions program at Tufts and Brandeis. However, these people all were interviewed and accepted during their second year of college, and were required to take the MCAT as a formality. Of these people, no one seems horribly immature (at leasts not in comparison to the rest of the class), and every single one passed the first year. Of the 3 people that were detained in the M'06 class, 1 was a guy from Tulane who did nothing but study in undergrad and freaked himself out when he got to med school, 1 was a girl from MIT undergrad who was also a bit of a gunner, and 1 was a girl with an MPH from Hopkins and Barnard College grad. Just goes to show that you can't predict how well people will do in med school by all the silly things people talk about on here like age, undergrad institution, gender, etc..

 

[honsano]

I am currently in one of these programs. I can totally understand why people think these programs are unfair, however I don't believe they will turn out sub par doctors . Like most programs, my program requires me to maintain above a 3.5 gpa or else face being removed. So, I don't really have the oppurtunity to just mess around. I am also required to take the MCAT, but my score doesn't really matter for my acceptance at the specific med. school associated with this program. They just make us take it to gather data and I assume to make sure they aren't letting complete idiots enter into medical school. Finally, most people in the same program as myself plan on applying to other medical schools after graduation, so the MCAT is just as important to us as it is to all other pre-med studs. The main purpose of this program, at least for me, is to take a lot of pressure off. I know people struggle to just make it into a medical school. So, for me, I can focus on other things and not have to constantly be worried about my future.

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by honsano
I am currently in one of these programs. I can totally understand why people think these programs are unfair, however I don't believe they will turn out sub par doctors . Like most programs, my program requires me to maintain above a 3.5 gpa or else face being removed. So, I don't really have the oppurtunity to just mess around. I am also required to take the MCAT, but my score doesn't really matter for my acceptance at the specific med. school associated with this program. They just make us take it to gather data and I assume to make sure they aren't letting complete idiots enter into medical school. Finally, most people in the same program as myself plan on applying to other medical schools after graduation, so the MCAT is just as important to us as it is to all other pre-med studs. The main purpose of this program, at least for me, is to take a lot of pressure off. I know people struggle to just make it into a medical school. So, for me, I can focus on other things and not have to constantly be worried about my future.

But if you're seriously trying to get into other medical schools, aren't you still driven to do the boring old traditional pre-med stuff? And aren't you still going to freak out over the MCAT?


Wait....as soon as my first med school acceptance comes, I will calm down a lot. So I guess I see the point.

 

[bella_dottoressa]

As for missing out on the college experience? I think having to stress out about EC's and academics would make you miss out on college life. Being in a program with a guaranteed med school admission lets you enjoy MORE. I've gone to TONS of USC football games (#8 in the nation! FIGHT ON!) and met some of the coolest friends I know I will ever have.

I don't know if that quoted right, b/c it was my first time...
But that is a really good point. What I meant was that at NEOUCOM it seemed like the program was SO RIGOROUS that I really WOULDN'T have time to play a sport, or maintain my personal relationships like with, say, a boyfriend. But again, I could be wrong on that; that's just how my friend and I perceived it to be.

 

[chypes]

I went to a summer program in Chicago .... and I heard the exact same thing about NEOUCOM from a couple of people...on who had several family members graduate from their..... you have time to study...and thats about it...for all six years....

 

[gold&black2005]

You all have valid points. It's a little different, however, when you're in a "program" -- it's not all a wonderful four-year experience where you do nothing, then head off to XYZ med school in order to continue the trend. I've heard horror stories from friends at UMKC, Case, Northwestern, and Union about these programs....I'm lucky in the sense that I only was accepted to one program and, thus, am here at VCU. It's a much different atmosphere here...everyone is much more collegial, and almost all of us have maintained our work patterns (i.e. heavily involved in the school, high grades, etc.) since we got here....we've had Finance, Photography, and Mass Communications majors, we've had presidents of the student bodies and capitains of the varsity soccer teams....and so on. The program has essentially brought students to a school that cherishes them, although it may not have a "huge name" like Hopkins or Stanford. People laughed when I told them I was going to VCU, but, in the end, it was (is) worth it....the GPA requirement (3.5) is difficult, but I wouldn't make another decision. Everyone finds their way to med school somehow -- this is just another avenue.

So....

Live and let live?

 

[IlianaSedai]

If you apply and get in? Take advantage of it. Two points:

1) You can always change your mind and drop out of the program. But it's a completely different mindset from opting-in as a traditional pre-med. Unless you're seriously hardcore, you'll probably have "doubts" about whether you want to go to med school for at least a few months (if not a few years) of college. You'll be facing the possibility of opting-out and giving up your place, rather than opting-in -- it's definitely not the same as trying to make the grade, but the thought of giving it up can be equally as scary.

2) Many traditional pre-meds at said college will have very negative feelings about the supposed "sit back and cruise" nature of special high-school-admission programs. As you can see, attitudes range from "Wow! That's really nice!" to "What a lazy bum" to "They don't work hard, how will they make half-decent physicians?" Come MCAT day, the most considerate thing would be to just don't mention that you're not taking it. Better yet, I think it's safer not to tell 'em you're in it unless they're your friends, because your friends will be happy for you rather than giving you crap.

3) You will work equally as hard as traditional pre-meds, but sometimes it is nice that the college treats you better than it treats them.

4) Study art. Major in music. Do something that actually says you are more than your transcript.

5) You will be as equally prepared for med school as traditional pre-meds.

6) You will be as equally prepared for being a physician as traditional pre-meds.

7) Go for an 8-year program instead of an accelerated program. Getting through your undergrad in 2-3 years can be brutal and I can't see how that makes life any easier than going the traditional route.

8) "Avoid people with bad attitudes." That is probably one of the main reasons why colleges decided to start these proggies to begin with.

But if the program doesn't put you through a huge grind in 6 years, but lets you sit back and take your time about your college life (I fully support doing all 4 years of college first) then I think it is a good deal

 

[phatsebz]

i've gotten into 5 of these ba/md programs....as far as working hard goes...during my highschool years ive worked my butt off....making sure i def want to be a doctor...ive shadowed physicians, volunteered many hours a week at 4 different hospitals, done tons of community service, played sports, taken advanced classes, saved phillipino and honduran babies....the whole nine yards...basically ive made sure i want to be a physician...i look at the programs this way....there are 6 year programs for Pharmacy (pharm.D) five year programs for physical therapy...and now there are 6,7,8 year programs for medicine...now 6 years is def. pushing it...but the 7 and 8 year programs put h.s students thru the same rigors as the traditional applicant...apps, secondaries, interviews....If you are dedicated to becoming a doctor these programs offer a straight path
of course there are....immature H.S students who want to be doctors because mommy and daddy say so,among other reasons....but i also believe that there are high school students who are mature, knowledgeable and experienced enough to make the desicion....most pre-meds start taking med school pre-reqs at age 18 during their freshman year in college....i guess its all opinion based and there will always be two sides to the issue

 

[Chorizo]

I got into the 8 year program at rochester, but I'm glad I didn't go! (Nothing personal, all you rochester folks. Rochester's beautiful!) Keep in mind that if you can get into one of these programs as a high schooler, you can probably do just fine at any 'ole college and end up going to a great med school anyway (and likely a top ten/top five school) . I went to my state school instead, came out with zero debt, and still got into some good md programs. Don't worry about having insurance - you'll be ok going the traditional premed route.

 

[zer0el]

I agree with much of what Dr. Dodger Dog stated. 8-year programs tend to be money as they usually allow for students to apply out. NU's HPME would make it harder since you only have 3 years of undergrad. Plus, students who get into USC's B/MD usually get the Trustees (full-tuition) scholarship as well. I don't see any disadvantages in going to undergrad for free, having a guaranteed acceptance to med school, and having to maintain reasonable academic standards. Whether or not these programs are fair is a different story. But hey, medical schools are businesses, so I say let them do whatever they want. Had I gotten into one of the three programs I applied to (USC, NU, CWRU) I probably would've gone. Ironically, after 4 years of busting my ass in undergrad, all three let me in the hard way. Go figure.

 

[Iffy premed]

I applied to a couple BA/MD programs in highschool and thank God that I didn't get in! Well...my 1400 SAT was not good enough to begin with. But my maturity was just lacking. I really had no idea what medicine is about...as for now...I still don't have a complete picture. But I am more certain of who I am and what I am capable of compared to 4 years ago.

However, that is just me. My best friend on the other hand, was incredible sensible and mature at the age of 18. She got into a 7-yr program, and I applaud her for that. She will be a great doctor no matter what course she took, just knowing that she is a caring and dedicated person. So BA/MD is different to everyone. As for slacking off...my friend pulled gpa 3.8, and worked harder than I did in undergrad. Of course, for every good seed, there is a bad one. I have known some BA/MD people who flunked out of 1st year General Chemistry.

 

[deleted158872]

If I were on Adcom, I would vehemently oppose the existence of such unfairness.

If you realize your dream when you were 14: you'll just have enough time to prepare yourself to apply for this program when you're 17. Applicants to those programs - excuse me for being frank - my doubt is it's their parents' wish.

Was the standardized MCAT designed to be ignored like this? Make them take the MCAT in their college junior year and see how they do in comparison to normal applicants!

One of my hs classmates is in a BS/MD program; I took loads of APs with her; we did just as many volunteer works; hers focused more on hospital. Now in college, seeing several BS/MD students, I look in comparison wondering where they're better than me, academically: most don't even bother taking upper science or doing research like I did.

I don't think BA/MD program is "heavier" than traditional one either: If a school offers 7-yr program, it's 3 yrs undergrad + 4 yrs Med. Take a realistic look: these students have the choice to purpue whatever they want (and I don't mean to say others don't have a choice); the difference is: they're not worrying about taking some upper science to prepare for MCAT - or study to beat the MCAT monster, and research or volunteer is only an option. While we need min of 3.6 GPA to hope for a chance, they need 3.4 to get in.

Maybe I'm not worldly, yet I hate unfairness in the world.

Why do some schools desire high-school applicants that much? I don't think they want to increase the # of apps to their schools: the process is competitive enough to have plenty apps to choose from, not to mention many of those traditional applicants were "prepped since birth" = prepared themselves pretty early, like someone said.

A reason I can think of is: BS/MD programs accept hs students based on their passion. If passion is all it counts (assumed everyone's grades & EC's are equal), then why should Med schools have certain cutoffs GPA/MCAT (hence the Lizzyscore), and schools don't even look favorably on you if your GPA is 3.4 . Lower than that? Don't even hope!

And why do those programs set pretty minimum GPA expectation for BS/MD students? I thought they must try extra hard, knowing their path is certain.

If I were on Adcom, I would want to see all applicants go through the "standard" amount of challenges (MCAT, college-level works, EC's, etc.) in order to be here.

 

[engineeredout]

Yeah I know a guy in a BS/MD program who will be in med school if he gets I think a 28 on his mcat. Not that its THAT easy, but its a lot easier than having to get 30+ to have a shot at allopathic.

Does make me wish I applied to those programs when doing college apps. Oh well.

 

[wolvbb]

you do realize this thread is about to have its 6th birthday? and it hasn't been replied to since april 15th, 2003?

 

[WinterLights]

If I were on Adcom, I would vehemently oppose the existence of such unfairness.

If you realize your dream when you were 14: you'll just have enough time to prepare yourself to apply for this program when you're 17. Applicants to those programs - excuse me for being frank - my doubt is it's their parents' wish.

Was the standardized MCAT designed to be ignored like this? Make them take the MCAT in their college junior year and see how they do in comparison to normal applicants!

One of my hs classmates is in a BS/MD program; I took loads of APs with her; we did just as many volunteer works; hers focused more on hospital. Now in college, seeing several BS/MD students, I look in comparison wondering where they're better than me, academically: most don't even bother taking upper science or doing research like I did.

I don't think BA/MD program is "heavier" than traditional one either: If a school offers 7-yr program, it's 3 yrs undergrad + 4 yrs Med. Take a realistic look: these students have the choice to purpue whatever they want (and I don't mean to say others don't have a choice); the difference is: they're not worrying about taking some upper science to prepare for MCAT - or study to beat the MCAT monster, and research or volunteer is only an option. While we need min of 3.6 GPA to hope for a chance, they need 3.4 to get in.

Maybe I'm not worldly, yet I hate unfairness in the world.

Why do some schools desire high-school applicants that much? I don't think they want to increase the # of apps to their schools: the process is competitive enough to have plenty apps to choose from, not to mention many of those traditional applicants were "prepped since birth" = prepared themselves pretty early, like someone said.

A reason I can think of is: BS/MD programs accept hs students based on their passion. If passion is all it counts (assumed everyone's grades & EC's are equal), then why should Med schools have certain cutoffs GPA/MCAT (hence the Lizzyscore), and schools don't even look favorably on you if your GPA is 3.4 . Lower than that? Don't even hope!

And why do those programs set pretty minimum GPA expectation for BS/MD students? I thought they must try extra hard, knowing their path is certain.

If I were on Adcom, I would want to see all applicants go through the "standard" amount of challenges (MCAT, college-level works, EC's, etc.) in order to be here. Some schools create such unfairness and hope us to apply. So schools, do you hope to accept students with 3.4 or 3.7 GPA, to be honest ?

Don't be so bitter. Soon enough you will be in medical school, and this will all be water under the bridge.

 

[engineeredout]

you do realize this thread is about to have its 6th birthday? and it hasn't been replied to since april 15th, 2003?

Hahahaha I didn't notice. Way for that guy to bump a six year old thread.

 

[deleted158872]

When I get into Med school, I'll continue fighting this program, my word ^^

you do realize this thread is about to have its 6th birthday? and it hasn't been replied to since april 15th, 2003?

You should learn how to use the search function

 

[LizzyM]

You had the option of applying to a BS/MD program. It is one route to med school and pretty much requires a (near) perfect SAT. It would be "unfair" if you had been barred from applying (e.g. only for legacies or URM) but that's not the case as far as I can tell.

Don't assume that med schools like these programs. They are, I think, often forced upon them by University administrators that use the programs to draw very high scoring undergrads to their institution.

On the other hand, some very highly regarded physicians have come out of these programs.

 

[RapplixGmed]

I am a BS/MD student with a few thoughts on this.

Remember that the purpose of most of these programs is to improve the student body of the UNDERGRADUATE school, not the medical school. The undergrad is probably giving some perks (funding or otherwise) to the med school to get this automatic acceptance thing going.

That said, I completely disagree with the blanket statements people are saying about how BS/MD is unfair or that it leads to laziness. Look, the high school performance of the typical student accepted into these programs could easily have landed them at an Ivy League or equivalent schools. It seems reasonable to give these students a full scholarship and a guarantee to a medical school to entice them to a weaker undergraduate institution. In no way do I see this as unfair. If I'm going to forego a harvard diploma, i'd better get at least that package.

It is true that such combined programs lead some people to become complacent and lazy. This is in the minority of the students though and sometimes it cannot be helped... it happens at any college. However, the majority of the people that I have seen used their time wisely and got even more accomplished than they would have if they didn't have the guarantee because they didn't have the stress.

I think combined programs are a very good thing. Go into it expecting to work your butt off and it will be a good experience. Don't bother if you plan on being lazy because it can only result in failure in med school.

btw, speaking as somebody who did well on the mcats, I still believe that it is just a hoop to jump through. Many BS/MD students realize this so they don't bother wasting their time with it when they could concentrate on more meaningful endeavors. If you take the average BS/MD student and have them study as much as the average non-BS/MD pre-med, i'm sure the BS/MD student would blow the premed out of the water.

 

[RunwayModel]

Maybe there is a thread somewhere on this forum about this topic, but i was just wondering what you all thought about programs that accept people into medschool when they are still in high school (or soon to graduate).

The one in particular that i am thinking of is in wisconsin (Madison) where they let in about 40-50 people while they are still in high school. they just have to maintain a 3.25 GPA and take all the pre-med requirements and they get in when they graduate. NO MCAT either! I know there are other programs like this, and quite honestly, I cannot stand them. To see adcoms put zillions of people through the rigors of an admissions process that realistically (for many) starts thier first year of undergrad, takes them through the MCAT, and finnally the application process itself. I have just thought of all the people with "average" stats (28-30 MCAT, 3.4-3.6 GPA) that do not get accepted to these schools while the schools themselves are letting people in with NO MCAT and a 3.25 in whatever major they want!

do these programs exist anywhere else, and am i the only one who thinks they are ridiculous!?

Not all of them are "ridiculous" as you may think, those in Northwestern's program, Brown, Baylor College of Medicine, etc. crank out pretty top notch students. These are students with high GPAs, have taken all honors/AP courses, are at the top of their class in rank and done very well on standardized exams.

These are people who would have probably done very well doing premed as well, but naturally undergrad is easier stress-wise when you've already been conditionally accepted to medical school.

Once again, the quality of the medical school and undergrad are what you have to look at.

 

[deleted158872]

I knew I wanted to be a doctor since hs ; it's not that I didn't look for these programs ; I didn't *think* of their existence nor imagine that some schools could bend the rule. Lizzy's answer made it clear why Ivy Leagues don't have this program.

@GMed : MCAT is not a breeze; it requires much time investment and motivation than you think.

"Naturally undergrad is easier stress-wise when you've already been conditionally accepted to medical school."

Agree.

European and Asian Med schools accept students right after high schools, and I by no means oppose their system, because ALL of their students go through the same process. They don't use ridiculous American double standard.

About quality of schools that have BS/MD programs: should only be concerned with quality of Medical program: take for example: University of Rochester Med school is in top 20th, if you ask me.

 

[TamarMD]

CUNY has the Sophie Davis Biomedical Program. The curriculum on the site says that they take the same courses that we take to get into med school. I didn't stick around long enough to find out if they have to take the MCAT.

Med.cuny.edu

 

[deleted112134]

Don't assume that med schools like these programs. They are, I think, often forced upon them by University administrators that use the programs to draw very high scoring undergrads to their institution.

That's IT? I'm flabbergasted! LOL..

Well, I don't support BA/MD programs because they're not fair for all I can see. My school has a BS/MD program giving priority to URM.

SAT is not a Medical entrance exam. Everyone should at least take MCAT.

High school courses cannot measure success in Med schools.
Candidates should complete Premed prerequisites with satisfactory grades.

 

[TehDoc]

It's always maruko resurrecting the dead threads.

 

[135892]

If I were on Adcom, I would vehemently oppose the existence of such unfairness.

If you realize your dream when you were 14: you'll just have enough time to prepare yourself to apply for this program when you're 17. Applicants to those programs - excuse me for being frank - my doubt is it's their parents' wish.

Was the standardized MCAT designed to be ignored like this? Make them take the MCAT in their college junior year and see how they do in comparison to normal applicants!

One of my hs classmates is in a BS/MD program; I took loads of APs with her; we did just as many volunteer works; hers focused more on hospital. Now in college, seeing several BS/MD students, I look in comparison wondering where they're better than me, academically: most don't even bother taking upper science or doing research like I did.

I don't think BA/MD program is "heavier" than traditional one either: If a school offers 7-yr program, it's 3 yrs undergrad + 4 yrs Med. Take a realistic look: these students have the choice to purpue whatever they want (and I don't mean to say others don't have a choice); the difference is: they're not worrying about taking some upper science to prepare for MCAT - or study to beat the MCAT monster, and research or volunteer is only an option. While we need min of 3.6 GPA to hope for a chance, they need 3.4 to get in.

Maybe I'm not worldly, yet I hate unfairness in the world.

Why do some schools desire high-school applicants that much? I don't think they want to increase the # of apps to their schools: the process is competitive enough to have plenty apps to choose from, not to mention many of those traditional applicants were "prepped since birth" = prepared themselves pretty early, like someone said.

A reason I can think of is: BS/MD programs accept hs students based on their passion. If passion is all it counts (assumed everyone's grades & EC's are equal), then why should Med schools have certain cutoffs GPA/MCAT (hence the Lizzyscore), and schools don't even look favorably on you if your GPA is 3.4 . Lower than that? Don't even hope!

And why do those programs set pretty minimum GPA expectation for BS/MD students? I thought they must try extra hard, knowing their path is certain.

If I were on Adcom, I would want to see all applicants go through the "standard" amount of challenges (MCAT, college-level works, EC's, etc.) in order to be here.

How can anyone feel so passionately about such a meaningless topic.... I mean does it really matter? There are a limited number of these programs to begin, so who cares if a few bright minds are able to get their schooling over with a little quicker.

 

[deleted158872]

It's always maruko resurrecting the dead threads.

that sounds old to me

How can anyone feel so passionately about such a meaningless topic.... I mean does it really matter?

sorry i happen to be a big suppoter of equity who love to discuss both sides of an issue...

*if* i wasn't a pre-med, i'd still say this:

like Lizzy said: they wanna draw high-scoring undergrads to their institutions, yet 10-20 individuals won't make much of a difference in overall (unless they accept up to 40-50 -- why don't they start publishing more?) . Combined programs neither make the student body better nor are they necessary; it never hurts to wait several yrs to see how those "stellar" applicants are doing in college though.

 

[LizzyM]

like Lizzy said: they wanna draw high-scoring undergrads to their institutions, yet 10-20 individuals won't make much of a difference in overall (unless they accept up to 40-50 -- why don't they start publishing more?) . Combined programs neither make the student body better nor are they necessary; it never hurts to wait several yrs to see how those "stellar" applicants are doing in college though.

If you do not know the number of BS/MD matriculants nor the number of other matriculants and their SAT scores, how can you have a valid opinion regarding this undergraduate admission policy?

There is nothing "unfair" about a University offering different routes to medical school graduation. You didn't choose to seek out such a program. That doesn't make it unfair.

 

[Narmerguy]

I think these programs should be eliminated. How can anybody really know what they want to do for the rest of their life at age 17 or 18? I also think these programs are unfair to other pre-meds. But, I don't know much about these programs. Perhaps there's an SDNer who's involved in one that can fill us in.

Right because everyone that applies to medical school had no idea in high school they just discovered it during undergraduate.

I was accepted into some of these programs and I think they would have been a great opportunity. When I visited the schools, from what I understood, it was more of a guided path through college rather than just letting you run wild and then go to a medical school that people have slaved to get into. They have requirements and expectations throughout the process to keep the people accepted active. I didn't go because other schools were willing to offer significantly more money for simply going to undergrad so you gotta go where the money is.

Honestly, do you think that most anyone that could get into these programs would not be able to reproduce the success in college as well to get into medical school? Most of the students have top notch grades, top notch SAT/ACT, extra-curriculars and the usual stuff people would have to do to get into medical school (without the research). What's unfair about this? Anyone can apply.

 

[dr drummer]

I'm in one of these programs and a lot of people are bitter towards it, but you have to realize that most of us worked our butts off in high school by doing most of the "pre-med activities" in high school. Most of the programs require taking the MCAT and maintaining a certain GPA, but even if they didn't, those who did very well on the SAT/ACT are likely to do well on the MCAT.

It sure has made life more relaxed applying. Anyways, I have been repeating stuff from up there, but at one point or anything these students have worked extremely hard so it evens out in the end.

 

[Diksha]

Okay, as someone said at the top of this thread six year ago D) schools are shying away from having combined-degree programs with relatively low GPA requirements and no MCAT. It is still very much a concern for these schools that their combined-degree students pass Step 1; many new combined-degree programs are enforcing some pretty stringent requirements.
My cousin recently got into such a program, and by the end of her third year she is expected to have a 3.7 GPA. She has to take advanced courses in physiology, genetics, molecular biology, etc. She has to have at least 80 hours of volunteer work, a YEAR of research, and at least a 30 on the MCAT. You know that a candidate with those credentials would get in somewhere, and that she would probably do well in medical school. I don't see how this is unfair in any way; you've got to be a super-student in high school just to get in, and then you've got to keep it up (at least to the extent that you are a bit above average for an applicant) in college.

 

[doomknight]

neurotic premeds that are jealous lol

I applied, and I didn't get in, and I don't really care. I'll still get into a medical school without the program. If I got in, I might of just been content with a below average med school. Now, I have the motivation to aim higher.

And to answer y'all's questions, I believe the program was created years ago, when the school wasn't popular, to attract students to that university/med school.

 

[Narmerguy]

And to answer y'all's questions, I believe the program was created years ago, when the school wasn't popular, to attract students to that university/med school.

Lol, one of the schools I saw clearly stated that this was the reason that the program existed.

 

[RySerr21]

Personally, I think those programs give unfair advantages to people who go to really rich prep schools because I didn't even know about the program till late, and then I was told I didn't qualify because I hadn't taken a whole bunch of AP courses. To tell the honest truth, my school didn't offer AP classes...

sorry dude, AP courses arent only offered at rich private schools. I went to a public school and had more AP course options than i could have wanted.

I've only read a few posts on this thread, but why are people complaining? There is no unfair advantage. Those programs are extremely extremely competitive. The students who are accepted worked their ass off in high school just as we all are working our asses off right now to gain acceptance. Dont be hateful just b/c you a) didn't know about it or b) weren't a stellar enough applicant to be accepted.

I only applied to 1 of the programs and it was the one at USC. I was not accepted, altho i was accepted to USC for the general undergrad, but decided to go elsewhere. I have had a great college exerpeince at my school and still have the opportunity to go to USC for med school. I couldnt' have asked for anything more. That being said, I think the programs are a great idea for students who were motivated about medicine in high school. They dont just accept any kid with a 4.0 1500 SAT. Its just like med school, these students had to have shown a keen interest in medicine from a very early age, which i think is impressive.

Oh and another thing, not all of them allow you to skip the MCAT. Many of them require a minimum score of 27 or 28 and i think a GPA of 3.5. I have friends that are in these programs at USC, UCSD< and BU. They are all extremeley bright and will make fantastic physicians. To say that they will make less of a physician b/c they were admitted out of high school is f*ckin stupid. Grow up, get your own acceptance, and stop b*tching b/c you have to do it the harder/more expensive way.