Getting into Med School without Pre-reqs

[deleted520847]

I have heard that more recently, many medical schools are doing away with their list of pre-requisite courses. This certainly, in theory of course, can potentially make the pre-medical journey a little cheaper. One could audit classes then proceed to the MCAT and potentially pass. In fact this would mean I can audit more science courses than I can pay for like the higher level biology courses giving me a bigger edge especially when it comes to preparation for med school.
Does anyone actually know anyone who might have gotten into med school without fulfilling these pre-reqs? It would be very convenient to just audit the classes then take the MCAT especially for Non-Trads due to financial straits. I am currently enrolled into a few classes and the process will be long and arduous as I can only afford a few classes at a time. If I could, I would certainly go that route instead to avoid the high cost of undergrad...save up for med school instead.

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[deleted520847]

I am not using this as an excuse not to do the pre-reqs. I know to have a wider chance of getting in, I will need my pre-req courses. I intend to do them to widen my pool of available schools. This however is a very interesting topic that needs exploration from a non-trad point of view especially, as I know money and time are big concerns for us.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Just out of curiosity, where did you hear this? There are/were two programs that were admitting liberal arts majors without having taken the pre-req classes or the MCAT. Both of these programs are quite small and admit very few applicants (less than 20) from a large applicant pool and have strict requirements for admission (usually college sophomore/junior). These programs were trying to evaluate whether or not the science pre-reqs lead to better physicians. As non-trads, we do not qualify for these programs (I believe the Icahn school of medicine at Mount Sanai has one).
Additionally, a couple schools have shifted away from strict course requirements (although they both still require science courses to be taken) in order to allow for applicants to take a broader range of courses that meet the core competencies. However, the reality is that for the vast majority of medical schools, there is a standard sequence of courses that you must take for credit.

I have heard that more recently, many medical schools are doing away with their list of pre-requisite courses. This certainly, in theory of course, can potentially make the pre-medical journey a little cheaper. One could audit classes then proceed to the MCAT and potentially pass. In fact this would mean I can audit more science courses than I can pay for like the higher level biology courses giving me a bigger edge especially when it comes to preparation for med school.
Does anyone actually know anyone who might have gotten into med school without fulfilling these pre-reqs? It would be very convenient to just audit the classes then take the MCAT especially for Non-Trads due to financial straits. I am currently enrolled into a few classes and the process will be long and arduous as I can only afford a few classes at a time. If I could, I would certainly go that route instead to avoid the high cost of undergrad...save up for med school instead.

 

[deleted520847]

Just out of curiosity, where did you hear this?

Universities like UVA, Tulane, Cincinnati, Stanford, Eastern Tennessee, USC, Medical University of South Carolina-Charleston and U Penn I believe are a few that do not require pre-requisites. There might be more but this is my short list for now. The MCAT is still a requirement for all of these schools.
As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am not trying to (nor advising anyone to) avoid doing these courses. Many of the schools I want to get into require all the regular courses. If I was sure I had a shot though, I would definitely audit all the required courses and just apply for these here schools. It would certainly save me time and a lot of money in my application process and by auditing, I would still have the required knowledge to pass the MCAT.

EDIT: To answer your question, I heard this from my pre-med advisor who might not have all the right info. As the posts below show, this is not a good plan

 

[DrMidlife]

Two separate things:
1. Being ready for med school, because med school will happily chew you up and spit you out if you somehow get an acceptance you maybe shouldn't get
2. Getting in to med school, which is subjective and conservative and full-to-bustin of anecdotal "how I got in" and "it's so unfair I didn't get in" stories

Not going to editorialize further on these, but you have to be the grownup in charge of both.

 

[DrMidlife]

Oh and the probable problem with not doing prereqs for credit is lack of access to faculty recommendations. Those aren't optional.

 

[deleted520847]

Two separate things:
1. Being ready for med school, because med school will happily chew you up and spit you out if you somehow get an acceptance you maybe shouldn't get
2. Getting in to med school, which is subjective and conservative and full-to-bustin of anecdotal "how I got in" and "it's so unfair I didn't get in" stories

Not going to editorialize further on these, but you have to be the grownup in charge of both.

I think as a non-trad who has gone through enough in life, some of us would have thick enough skin to handle #2. Of course I don't speak for everyone but myself. I respectfully disagree with #1 as I think this would be a moot point if one were to audit the classes needed. That being said, as a current medical student you probably have more knowledge on how the system works than I do

Oh and the probable problem with not doing prereqs for credit is lack of access to faculty recommendations. Those aren't optional.

This is a good point. This would make a big difference in the application and does blow a big hole in the theory. Of course if while auditing the class you become especially friendly with the professor somehow, they might be willing to give you a letter...but this would be a real stretch.

 

[tnedoots]

An important point about science pre-reqs is not just the knowledge that you gain from them but also learning how to study scientific concepts. I have taken almost 300 units of UG classes in many different areas and there is a BIG difference between hard-science classes and anything else. And there is a BIG difference between a UG science class and med school. So, the pre-reqs, in theory, help prep you for the rigors of studying/learning/memorizing in med school. Auditing/CLEP/whatever skips that whole process. Basically what I'm trying to say is that just because you can skip the pre-reqs through whatever process doesn't mean that you are ready.
It'll be interesting to see what those experimental programs find out about that prep and its necessity. I think that the "weed out" classes do hold some importance specifically for the reasons listed above.

 

[deleted520847]

So, the pre-reqs, in theory, help prep you for the rigors of studying/learning/memorizing in med school. Auditing/CLEP/whatever skips that whole process. Basically what I'm trying to say is that just because you can skip the pre-reqs through whatever process doesn't mean that you are ready.

Just to be clear. Auditing a class involves going to every class just like a normal student would throughout the semester. You are basically attending the same classes and lectures but because the college does not give you credit, you pay less than a traditional student would.

 

[tnedoots]

Just to be clear. Auditing a class involves going to every class just like a normal student would throughout the semester. You are basically attending the same classes and lectures but because the college does not give you credit, you pay less than a traditional student would.

I understand that. If you have the discipline to actually learn the material while not being graded, more power to you. But I feel like most people, including me, without the testing and grading process wouldn't study nor learn what was presented. At least not to the level if grades were on the line.

And in the end, if you are the type of person who would get the same out of it, you might as well suck it up and pay the extra dollars. The admissions process is all about fitting neatly in the boxes provided. Auditing pre-reqs doesn't fit in their box. It confuses them and requires you to explain why you did that. Which requires more time on their part to review your application. With thousands of apps to review that's not necessarily a good thing. But taking the classes for a grade and getting a good grade fits very nicely in their box and makes them happy.
Obviously, if auditing the class reduces the cost-burden below a threshold that would otherwise prevent you from being able to afford applying to med school then you gotta do what you gotta do.

Also, now that I think about it, why bother paying to audit the classes if you're just trying to learn the material? I spend more time teaching myself crap off of YouTube, Wikipedia, etc. than I do learning anything from lecture. Unless you have an outstanding lecturer (which is rare in med school), the lecture is only good for figuring out what you need to go teach yourself.
Free option seems better than paying to audit classes.

 

[deleted520847]

You all make valid points. All in all the best route to medical school is to do the required courses and then get in with a nice solid foundation. While most of us will (and should) take the longer route and complete all the pre-requisites, there are many people who cannot afford that route with family and financial obligations. It's nice that there is an option out there for the extremely smart but socio-economically challenged non-trad student.

 

[DrMidlife]

You all make valid points. All in all the best route to medical school is to do the required courses and then get in with a nice solid foundation. While most of us will (and should) take the longer route and complete all the pre-requisites, there are many people who cannot afford that route with family and financial obligations. It's nice that there is an option out there for the extremely smart but socio-economically challenged non-trad student.

False dichotomy. There are a fair number of ways to finance taking the prereqs without reverting to a parent-supported degree-seeking matriculated status.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Bear in mind that the schools you listed are among the most selective medical schools in the country with extremely low acceptance percentages. I would not encourage anyone to target these schools alone even if that person were to have a a 98%+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA.

As other commonly say, getting into medical school (and becoming a doctor) is a marathon and not a sprint. Take your time at each step. You will end up spending more time (and money) if you audit classes and then find out after an unsuccessful application cycle that you need to retake the classes for credit.

Universities like UVA, Tulane, Cincinnati, Stanford, Eastern Tennessee, USC, Medical University of South Carolina-Charleston and U Penn I believe are a few that do not require pre-requisites. There might be more but this is my short list for now. The MCAT is still a requirement for all of these schools.
As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am not trying to (nor advising anyone to) avoid doing these courses. Many of the schools I want to get into require all the regular courses. If I was sure I had a shot though, I would definitely audit all the required courses and just apply for these here schools. It would certainly save me time and a lot of money in my application process and by auditing, I would still have the required knowledge to pass the MCAT.

 

[DrMikeP]

My wife is a professor at a university doing away with "requirements" and the way it's advertised is actually sort of a misdirection. Just because a school "does away" with required courses DOES NOT mean they don't consider grades in those science courses taken in the application process as a way of demonstrating proficiency in learning science material. So they may not "require" Chem I & II specifically but you need those for organic and biochem and you need to learn those for MCAT. So it's also an issue of being competitive. If student A has significant 3.9 gpa coursework in bio and a 510 MCAT and student B has coursework mostly in political science but a 510 MCAT who do you think is going to have a better shot?

Sort of like many schools now have a list of recommended coursework, which they don't require but seriously consider in admissions.

 

[Goro]

Except auditing students don't take exams (at every college I've associated with), and thus no one, including the student, knows how much they've actually learned.

And OP, I'm getting a strong whiff of "I want to be told what I want to hear".

So quit arguing.

Just to be clear. Auditing a class involves going to every class just like a normal student would throughout the semester. You are basically attending the same classes and lectures but because the college does not give you credit, you pay less than a traditional student would.

 

[GAdawg94]

I think as a non-trad who has gone through enough in life, some of us would have thick enough skin to handle #2. Of course I don't speak for everyone but myself. I respectfully disagree with #1 as I think this would be a moot point if one were to audit the classes needed. That being said, as a current medical student you probably have more knowledge on how the system works than I do


This is a good point. This would make a big difference in the application and does blow a big hole in the theory. Of course if while auditing the class you become especially friendly with the professor somehow, they might be willing to give you a letter...but this would be a real stretch.

And how the heck can they evaluate your aptitude without being under pressure for exams and receiving grades? Its a bad idea all the way around.

 

[GAdawg94]

False dichotomy. There are a fair number of ways to finance taking the prereqs without reverting to a parent-supported degree-seeking matriculated status.

Agreed! They dont care if you can't finance the coursework. They only evaluate applications based on achievement and aptitude not excuses.

 

[CBFutureHelper14]

False dichotomy. There are a fair number of ways to finance taking the prereqs without reverting to a parent-supported degree-seeking matriculated status.

Like a post bacc program?

 

[DrMidlife]

1. on campus job could get you reduced/zero tuition and/or registration priority
2. night/extension/summer classes, keep day job
3. 2nd bachelors, eligible for limited federal loans, add part time job
4. take 2nd job, work like a maniac to save up the cost of a full time year of school, go nuts
5. basically make friends with the constraints you actually have (certain classes & A's in them) vs. the ones you claim to have (a set timeline, no debt)

I do not recommend community college or online. People disagree with this, sometimes angrily. Don't care. Still don't recommend it. Sticks out in a bad way in a too-big pile of unblemished applicants.

 

[GreenDuck12]

You could always work full time and take classes part time. Work full time, get an extra job to save money and take classes in a few years (medical schools aren't going anywhere). You could also enroll in programs that will allow you to access financial aid.

Like a post bacc program?

 

[CBFutureHelper14]

I've considered second degree, which will allow me to keep my job, its only part time, and also possibly be able to get work study, while not having to move to another town. For the post bacc program, I'd have to move to another town, but I will also possibly be able to get work study and live with a relative. Which will defenitely help with housing costs.

 

[deleted520847]

It's strange that my pre-med advisor seems to think these schools were viable options. I suppose they don't know too much do they? Thanks @DrMidlife for your respectful advice.

 

[Goro]

As I say to my 13 year old all the time; "these words came out of your mouth".

So chill.

Universities like UVA, Tulane, Cincinnati, Stanford, Eastern Tennessee, USC, Medical University of South Carolina-Charleston and U Penn I believe are a few that do not require pre-requisites. There might be more but this is my short list for now. The MCAT is still a requirement for all of these schools.
As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am not trying to (nor advising anyone to) avoid doing these courses. Many of the schools I want to get into require all the regular courses. If I was sure I had a shot though, I would definitely audit all the required courses and just apply for these here schools. It would certainly save me time and a lot of money in my application process and by auditing, I would still have the required knowledge to pass the MCAT.

I think as a non-trad who has gone through enough in life, some of us would have thick enough skin to handle #2. Of course I don't speak for everyone but myself. I respectfully disagree with #1 as I think this would be a moot point if one were to audit the classes needed. That being said, as a current medical student you probably have more knowledge on how the system works than I do


This is a good point. This would make a big difference in the application and does blow a big hole in the theory. Of course if while auditing the class you become especially friendly with the professor somehow, they might be willing to give you a letter...but this would be a real stretch.

Just to be clear. Auditing a class involves going to every class just like a normal student would throughout the semester. You are basically attending the same classes and lectures but because the college does not give you credit, you pay less than a traditional student would.

You all make valid points. All in all the best route to medical school is to do the required courses and then get in with a nice solid foundation. While most of us will (and should) take the longer route and complete all the pre-requisites, there are many people who cannot afford that route with family and financial obligations. It's nice that there is an option out there for the extremely smart but socio-economically challenged non-trad student.

 

[deleted520847]

As I say to my 13 year old all the time; "these words came out of your mouth".

So chill.

I am not sure why you are lashing out at me. These forums are for discussions and to garner information. Please feel free not to respond if it offends you. I respectfully refuse to argue with you.

 

[deleted520847]

I do not claim to be a master in med school admin. You are and that might be why you are talking in such a demeaning manner to me. I suppose you have earned the right to be demeaning. I received advice from a pre-med advisor and came on here to verify it, knowing that the advise might not be altogether accurate. I have received good advice and I am now wiser, understanding that this is not an option. People like @DrMidlife @DrMikeP and others were able to give me the same advice you are giving me without being condescending. I have always liked your advice and will continue to respectly listen since you do know more than I do. I would just like to request mutual respect. I have done nothing to earn your disrespect. Thank you for contributing.

 

[DrMidlife]

Public service announcement: no single poster's opinion on SDN should be taken too seriously. Including mine. A lot of respectable posters don't spend much time on SDN. You can't fish for their opinions, you have to go down the shaft and mine for them (this metaphor means you get more out of SDN by reading the old than by asking the new). When you see consensus, agreement and themes from multiple posters in multiple contexts, frequently over multiple years, then you might be on to some truth. By default, assume you're being coached by a malicious bored 13 year old in Malaysia.

 

[DrMikeP]

I do not claim to be a master in med school admin. You are and that might be why you are talking in such a demeaning manner to me. I suppose you have earned the right to be demeaning. I received advice from a pre-med advisor and came on here to verify it, knowing that the advise might not be altogether accurate. I have received good advice and I am now wiser, understanding that this is not an option. People like @DrMidlife @DrMikeP and others were able to give me the same advice you are giving me without being condescending. I have always liked your advice and will continue to respectly listen since you do know more than I do. I would just like to request mutual respect. I have done nothing to earn your disrespect. Thank you for contributing.

Med school, residency, and practice is filled with people who will give you a straight and non-sensitive response (95% of every surgeon I know). It doesn't mean you're not being respected but they are responding to how you comment in the same manner as someone will in med school. You will find that those like Goro are invaluable because they will tell you what others (especially adcoms) are thinking but too afraid or sensitive to say.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

My wife is a professor at a university doing away with "requirements" and the way it's advertised is actually sort of a misdirection. Just because a school "does away" with required courses DOES NOT mean they don't consider grades in those science courses taken in the application process as a way of demonstrating proficiency in learning science material. So they may not "require" Chem I & II specifically but you need those for organic and biochem and you need to learn those for MCAT. So it's also an issue of being competitive. If student A has significant 3.9 gpa coursework in bio and a 510 MCAT and student B has coursework mostly in political science but a 510 MCAT who do you think is going to have a better shot?

Sort of like many schools now have a list of recommended coursework, which they don't require but seriously consider in admissions.

^This.

By and large from what I've seen, the schools that have "done away with requirements" have moved toward a competency-based system. They still want to see evidence that you've mastered certain core concepts from the sciences and math; they're just less concerned with whether you took Biology I or Neurobiology. Schools still want to see that you took relevant coursework and did well in it. So even if you audited courses and learned the material, without taking classes for a grade schools would have no way of knowing whether you've really mastered the subject areas they've decided are important.

 

[deleted520847]

I want to apologize for my childish complaints on here. You are right @Goro I sounded defensive and argumentative. I responded after a long day at work in customer service (there are very few things I hate more than my job) and might have let my frustration with my job affect my posts. I have sent you a PM but the mature thing to do is also apologize publicly.

 

[Goro]

Spoken like a future doctor!

I want to apologize for my childish complaints on here. You are right @Goro I sounded defensive and argumentative. I responded after a long day at work in customer service (there are very few things I hate more than my job) and might have let my frustration with my job affect my posts. I have sent you a PM but the mature thing to do is also apologize publicly.

 

[Law2Doc]

As mentioned most of those places who don't specifically mandate the prereqs still expect most applicants to take the prereqs. They have liberalized the requirements for their own benefit, not yours, as they want to be able to cherry pick an outstanding candidate here or there who maybe doesn't have all the prereqs. But since most schools require prereqs, and nobody applies to just 1-2 schools, most applicants will still have the prereqs and that is against who you will be compared. So OP, you need the prereqs.